I've studied the 76 II/II coins extensively, and if you look at a bunch of the proof examples, you'll see varying degrees of "doubling" on US of A lettering. My theory is this is an artifact of multiple strikes, not something present on the reverse die. You'll see some of these (same die) with zero "doubling" and others with quite a bit, and it can vary in location.
Are you suggesting there's more than one II/II die pair? That would be news to me.
Not at all. A single II/II proof. The business pairing of the proof obverse die was also II/II. Have you determined the reverses to also be the same? (Such was done the prior year for the I/II proof pair.) That business pair is the only one in the catalogue where I couldn't identify a distinct marker for the reverse. The proof I imaged the OF doubled. Yes, I know, especially with proofs, strike doubling is a distinct possibility. I saw it on at least a couple. If you, having studied the 1876 especially, have some points to make in that regard, it would be very welcome and helpful. That is what the review process was meant to do. But it works at this stage too. Even the Type II reverse for the I/II business pair is pretty indistinct. The only thing noted was weakness on the FINE dot on some of them. (The proofs were more understudied pretty generally, especially after 1877.)
I've studied the 76 II/II coins extensively, and if you look at a bunch of the proof examples, you'll see varying degrees of "doubling" on US of A lettering. My theory is this is an artifact of multiple strikes, not something present on the reverse die. You'll see some of these (same die) with zero "doubling" and others with quite a bit, and it can vary in location.
Are you suggesting there's more than one II/II die pair? That would be news to me.
Not at all. A single II/II proof. The business pairing of the proof obverse die was also II/II. Have you determined the reverses to also be the same? (Such was done the prior year for the I/II proof pair.) That business pair is the only one in the catalogue where I couldn't identify a distinct marker for the reverse. The proof I imaged the OF doubled. Yes, I know, especially with proofs, strike doubling is a distinct possibility. I saw it on at least a couple. If you, having studied the 1876 especially, have some points to make in that regard, it would be very welcome and helpful. That is what the review process was meant to do. But it works at this stage too. Even the Type II reverse for the I/II business pair is pretty indistinct. The only thing noted was weakness on the FINE dot on some of them. (The proofs were more understudied pretty generally, especially after 1877.)
The same reverse die used for the II/II proof was used with the 4 finger obverse proof, 4 finger obverse business strike, and a regular I/II business strike. That reverse “got around”.
There’s a small die chip on the right side of the ribbon of the E Pluribus banner on that reverse.
Just noticed, I think you’re missing this obverse in your list. This is what I call the 4 finger obverse. It’s otherwise type I, but the finger count looks like type II.
@OriginalDan said:
Just noticed, I think you’re missing this obverse in your list. This is what I call the 4 finger obverse. It’s otherwise type I, but the finger count looks like type II.
I was not sure how to classify that one. Some apparently call it 1.5. Does it look hand engraved to you or creatively hubbed? I am thinking the former. I recall one reverse having a chip a chip at the lower part of the right fold of the EPU banner. I will need to revisit those coins to see if that was it. If it was the same die, it will simplify things a bit. They really did reuse dies a lot, especially in Carson City.
In addition to a QA review, I am looking for proposals for inclusions in a reasonably sized list, like the VAM Top 100. Trying to steer clear of ultrararities that make such a set achievable by only one or two and with a ton of bucks. Something like the wide small cc for 1875 would be such a coin, while that for 1874 might be a welcome challenge.
I humbly disagree with this approach. Whether or not a variety is ultrarare should have no bearing on whether or not it is included. "Achievability" is a function of one's wallet no matter what you collect and is subjective. The list should be objective and not based on what may or may not be affordable depending on the size of one's wallet. If the variety verifiably exists, it must be included. The "small wide cc" set (as you referred to) is an excellent and obvious example. Put an asterisk by the ultrarare ones indicating so. Those who collect the set would want to know about the rarities so they can look for them.
@mbogoman said: In addition to a QA review, I am looking for proposals for inclusions in a reasonably sized list, like the VAM Top 100. Trying to steer clear of ultrararities that make such a set achievable by only one or two and with a ton of bucks. Something like the wide small cc for 1875 would be such a coin, while that for 1874 might be a welcome challenge.
I humbly disagree with this approach. Whether or not a variety is ultrarare should have no bearing on whether or not it is included. "Achievability" is a function of one's wallet no matter what you collect and is subjective. The list should be objective and not based on what may or may not be affordable depending on the size of one's wallet. If the variety verifiably exists, it must be included. The "small wide cc" set (as you referred to) is an excellent and obvious example. Put an asterisk by the ultrarare ones indicating so. Those who collect the set would want to know about the rarities so they can look for them.
There is a way of accommodating both: include both for that slot in the set. The Ultrararity would obviously be worth more points and $$$, but completion would be less elusive. There are ultrararities among the Morgan list sets: 1889 VAM-23A is an example. Part of the reasoning behind its inclusion was that people then looking for it would ferret out others in the wild. But that backfired when Jeff O did the Hit List. He included the 1921-D VAM-1X. Turned out that the only known specimen to date is the one he owns. It is a great one with huge obverse cuds and attendant flow starvation. It was somewhat changed by splitting it into two possibilities. One was that one, redesignated 1X2. The other the earlier state, without cuds, listed as 1X1.
In this case, perhaps the challenge could leave many with a vacancy or two for most collectors, and with some hope and dream of picking that wide 1875-cc. I'll start another thread soon enough one this proposed list and maybe we can hack it out as an informed community. There are some far less challenging but interesting, like the 1877-S broken arrows (comes in two states, one tougher, and is difficult above AU), that differentiate such a list from a list of the rarest of the rare. I am more inclined in that direction. That 1875-cc is elusive, to say the least, and also interesting. It would be harder to justify it if it were a Philly release with nothing particularly going on except an unremarkable date position being extremely rare.
I disagree about excluding coins like the 75cc Wide (although I admit I am not impartial). Couple of points.
-100 Vams is too many. the big coins get lost in the little ones and a day top 25 list is what makes it completable, not excluding rare or expensive challenges. The 78cc is more expensive than any Trade variety save maybe the 76 2/2 and the 76s DDO but those would make any list even though there is only about 12-15 76s DDOs known which is very rare. Peace dollars and Morgans have had the larger varieties suppressed by the proliferation of VAMs somewhat. a 1901 shiffted eagle which is a major DDR is listed the same as a minor clash on a common 1903o. It becomes overload at a point
-The Wide CCs are one of the oldest recognized varieties being mentioned in auction listing back to at lest the 1940s, the subset of a 73,74,75 & 76 wide CC that all share the same rev die is one of the seminal accomplishments for specialists of the series and has been done by at least 4 different people on this board. It is possible
-A varieties list is about a coin being worthy of note, not always easy to get. Remember hard for one person might be easy for another.
-By adding it to the list you are encouraging others to look for them, each one of the 3 known were found for less than a $1000 buck each by true experts on the series. This group has also picked multiple 76s DDOs (4 and counting), 76 4 finger type 1/2 and countless other cool coins. Inclusion encourages discovery
And yeah, estimated rarity can change, especially in response to the list.
One coin I thought would be on the "Too Rare" list was the 1853 V-8a (big reverse cud).
For fun I looked for it on ebay, was surprised to find one, bought it, and this upped the count enough to make it collectible,
so it's on the regular Top 100.
I disagree about excluding coins like the 75cc Wide (although I admit I am not impartial). Couple of points.
I floored the idea, but if you see my reply, it seems good. I am not going to dictate such a list but collaborate it here soon in a separate post.
-100 Vams is too many. the big coins get lost in the little ones and top 25 list is what makes it completable not excluding rare or expensive. The 78cc is more expensive than any Trade variety save maybe the 76 2/2 and the 76s DDO but those would make any list even though there is only about 12-15 76s DDOs known which is very rare. Peace dollars and Morgans have had the larger varieties suppressed by the proliferation of VAMs somewhat. a 1901 shiffted eagle which is a major DDR is listed the same as a minor clash on a common 1903o. It becomes overload at a point
Never suggested it be 100 coins, just that it be a somewhat equivalent to the Morgan Top 100. There are over 5000 Morgan varieties and 100 was a reasonable number for such a list for that series. Turned out, for better or worse, it was followed by a Hot 50, Hit List 40, and other lists for that series. But it also has a huge and variety-motivated collector base.
I have not done a full count yet, but there are roughly 200 obverse and 200 reverse dies from 1873 through 1878 for the Trade dollars. So it is more on the order of 10% of the size of the Morgan catalogue. But certainly 10 varieties in a list would not motivate many collectors. We can hammer that out soon and separately.
-The Wide CCs are one of the oldest recognized varieties being being mentioned in auction listing back to at lest the 1940s, the subset of a 73,74,75 & 76 wide CC that all share the same rev die is one of the seminal accomplishments for specialists of the series and has been done by at least 4 different people on this board. It is possible
-A varieties list is about a coin being worth of note, not always easy to get. Remember hard for one person might be easy for another.
-By adding it to the list you are encouraging others to look for them, each one of the 3 known were found for less than a $1000 buck each by true experts on the series. This group has also picked multiple 76s DDOs (4 and counting), 76 4 finger type 1/2 and countless other cool coins. Inclusion encourages discovery
Here is, off the top of my head a rough idea of a starting point for interesting and some rare varieties worth considering. The numbering, of course, is meaningless to others at this point. It is for me to keep my thoughts straight (using a C- prefix as seems to be the convention). The descriptions should be familiar enough.
1873 C-2.1/2.2/2.3: different stages of the very familiar second proof for the date with the pair of parallel "whip" die polish lines through the 900.
1873 C-6.1: Worm die polish on Liberty's upper right arm and many strong die scratches from the reverse denticles to the legend.
1873-CC C-1: Nearly the entire date is visible punched high into the denticles and there is a prominent gouge in the D/DOLLAR.
1873-CC C-2/4/5: FS-301 with three different reverse dies
1874-CC C-2.1: Gouged eagle's neck
1875 C-3/6: Type II Reverse proof die pair (C-6 is the reuse for circulation strikes)
1875-CC C-15: Wide small cc
1875-CC C-13: RPM CC/cc
1875-S C-2.1: Large break on the first L/DOLLAR
1875-S C-6: RPM S/CC FS-501
1875-S C-7/7.1: RPM S/CC FS-502 (7.1 has a break on the top of the second S/STATES)
1875-S C-10.2: Single break on R/DOLLAR and radial break through star 3
1875-S C-11.2: Double break on R/DOLLAR and patch of die scratches in Liberty's lower garment
1875-S C-12.1/14.1: Gouge between talon and branch end, two different obverses
1875-S C-25.1: Long radial break from the denticles to the lower IGWT right banner fold corner
1875-S C-29.2: Clashed, radial break between stars 2 and 3, chips on Liberty's thighs
1875-S C-30.1: Long break from the denticles, through star 4, curving up to Liberty's right hand
1876 C-5: Type II reverse proof with rusted waist
1876-CC C-1/1.1: FS-801 DDR, 1.1 is with the CC connected by a horizontal scratch
1876-CC C-2: Wide small cc
1876-CC C-3.2: Pitted stars 12 and 13, wide large CC, pin gouge in N/GRAINS
1876-CC C-5.2: Gouges through INS/GRAINS, break on second T/STATES
1876-S C-12.1: Strong radial break left of star 4, crossing star joining crack, broken left side of right serif of U/UNITED
1876-S C-20.1: Clashed (DOL?) and strong gouge at the back of Liberty's neck
1876-S C-31: Type I/II with large S
1876-S C-32.1: Strong radial break from denticles to the right of F/OF and into the EPU motto banner
1876-S C-33/35: RPD 76 FS-301, different reverses
1876-S C-34.1: RPD 76 (not same as FS-301), radial break from rim between OL/DOLLAR
1876-S C-36.1: FS-101 DDO
1876-S C-38: Type II/II with large S
1877 C-5: DDR, prominent on the EPU motto
1877 C-10.1: Pitted obverse
1877 C-12/12.1: DDO left stars and wheat, 12.1 has a break between RA/TRADE
1877 C-13/14/15: DDO right stars and wheat FS-101 different reverses
1877 C-25.1: Large chip on Liberty's left wrist, gouge atop NS/GRAINS
1877-CC C-2.1: Heavily clashed and broken dies
1877-CC C-3.1: Heavily clashed
1877-S C-2/15.1/19.1/20: No dots, bullnose R/DOLLAR, different dies completely, 20 has crescent after AMERICA
1877-S C-3/3.1: Broken arrows, 3.1 has the lower shaft re-engraved
1877-S C-4: Duck lips feathers - SF Mint touched up reverse die (cited as a different hub elsewhere)
1877-S C-16/16.1/17/18.1: DDR FS-802, three different obverses, 16 is before the arrow shaft break
1877-S C-21: RPD 7. RPM S FS-301
1877-S C-22.1/22.2: Strong radial break through E/AMERICA, 22.2 has additional break to D/DOLLAR
1877-S C-26/50.1/50.2: Large break on right IGWT banner end, 50.1/50.2 (progressive break on arrow shaft) was earlier than 26
1877-S C-27.1: Radial break along left side of second S/STATES
1877-S C-31.1: Long radial break after AMERICA
1877-S C-32.1: Long, heavy radial break from rim, between AD/TRADE to A/GRAINS
1877-S C-37: Worm die polish in Liberty's lower garment
1877-S C-38.1: Radial breaks to lower wheat, right side of F/OF to banner, and through R/DOLLAR
1877-S C-46: DDR FS-801
1877-S C-47.1: Radial break through the first S/STATES to the banner
1877-S C-48.1: Clashed dies, dot on first 7
1877-S C-54.1: Radial break through R/TRADE
1878-S C-13: Heavy lower garment polish, DDR
1878-S C-16.1: Pinned Liberty with thin horizontal gouges in garment thighs and through left wrist
1878-S C-18/18.1/18.2/18.3: DDR FS-801, 18.1 is heavily clashed, 18.2 is remediated with large wing edge chip
So it is easy to arrive at an interesting and challenging 50-coin set with such considerations. There are also plenty of not dots after FINE, maybe chopmarked 1875 and 1878-CC, plenty of poor man's DDRs, lots of other clashes and breaks, and some that have eluded me. Could put the wide small cc ones in a single slot too (crazy points for 1875-cc). Anyway, something to think about and we can dedicate a thread to hashing it out. Seems 50 might be a fun number, perhaps calling it the Challenge 50.
When I did a variety set I included all the hub types as the back bone of the set and
73 CC MPD FS 301 & 302
73 wide CC 1.0 & 1.2 mm
74 cc wide CC 1.0 & 1.2mm
75s/cc FS 501 & 502
75s micro S (it’s a RPD too)
75cc wide CC 1.2mm
76 1.5/2 proof and business strike
76p type 1/1 Perfect rev no broken letters
76s DDO
76s RPD
76s 1/2 large S & micro s
76s 2/2 large S & micro s
76 cc DDR
76 cc type 1/1 non DDR
76 cc Wide CC 1.2mm
77p DDO
77s broken arrows
77s RPD
77s DDR 801 & 802
77s micro S
78s DDR FS801
78 proof
Coins I looked for but never added
76s Type 1/1 date in denticals
76 1/1 proof
When coupled to the rarer hub type namely the 75p 1/1 and the 76 2/2 it was a massively challenging set. Die lines don’t fire up collectors outside of true students so I aimed for naked eye vanities and rare or unusual MM combos
And @OriginalDan is correct the die chip in eplurb banner rev is used on all 76p 2/2, 76p 1.5/2 coins proof and uncirculated and one 76p 1/2 business strike coin
@Crypto - Yes, that's where we need to go. Consider a number of approaches to arrive at one that has a reasonable chance of market acceptance, can be collected from VF on up, and other considerations. There is also no reason other specialist lists are impossible. I was hesitant to even include proofs because that knocks some collectors right out. Maybe a Challenge list for the more budget-minded collectors and an Elite set for the whales. Of course, all the CPG need to be included, except perhaps the 1878-S FS-802. Has anyone even seen one? I have not. Seen a few minor DDRs though.
As a TD variety specialist, if I was just starting out and I saw a list of 50 or 100 TDs I’d turn around and go collect something else. They are too expensive for one, to do that many, and to make a list that long you’re including a lot of minor varieties that like Crypto said don’t get collectors excited. It’s only a 7 year set with not a ton of major mistakes by the mint.
I would keep it manageable, in the 25-30 coin range, and include the more major, seeing eye varieties no matter how rare.
@alefzero said: @Crypto - Yes, that's where we need to go. Consider a number of approaches to arrive at one that has a reasonable chance of market acceptance, can be collected from VF on up, and other considerations. There is also no reason other specialist lists are impossible. I was hesitant to even include proofs because that knocks some collectors right out. Maybe a Challenge list for the more budget-minded collectors and an Elite set for the whales. Of course, all the CPG need to be included, except perhaps the 1878-S FS-802. Has anyone even seen one? I have not. Seen a few minor DDRs though.
I forgot a big one,
The 76p type 1/1 perfect reverse (without broken letters)
@alefzero said: @Crypto - Yes, that's where we need to go. Consider a number of approaches to arrive at one that has a reasonable chance of market acceptance, can be collected from VF on up, and other considerations. There is also no reason other specialist lists are impossible. I was hesitant to even include proofs because that knocks some collectors right out. Maybe a Challenge list for the more budget-minded collectors and an Elite set for the whales. Of course, all the CPG need to be included, except perhaps the 1878-S FS-802. Has anyone even seen one? I have not. Seen a few minor DDRs though.
I forgot a big one,
The 76p type 1/1 perfect reverse (without broken letters)
Not a proof, I presume, as I have seen no such beast. So it would be a huge rarity. Here is the only such business strike I have found. Have noted only a few of them.
@kaz said:
I have to say, this thread has been an impressive presentation of numismatic scholarship-in-progress.
But based on the thread title, nobody would ever find it. LOL
We just need jesbroken to edit the title! Maybe... "Trade Dollar heavyweights present plans for definitive guidebooks"
or something else that will draw thousands of views...
@OriginalDan said:
As a TD variety specialist, if I was just starting out and I saw a list of 50 or 100 TDs I’d turn around and go collect something else. They are too expensive for one, to do that many, and to make a list that long you’re including a lot of minor varieties that like Crypto said don’t get collectors excited. It’s only a 7 year set with not a ton of major mistakes by the mint.
I would keep it manageable, in the 25-30 coin range, and include the more major, seeing eye varieties no matter how rare.
I think you are right. As collectors get more advanced they will gravitate to more. I also think a couple different lists makes more sense. The guys already doing varieties to some extent would want a more spanning and difficult list. But how about this reduction from the 56 I posed for a one geared to new collectors? Again the idea is that many more would be buying coins in the hundreds of dollars each, not thousands, and mostly the more common dates. Here are 33 and could add a slot for the small wide cc which would be good for 1873 through 1876 and another (77-s small s, ...). That would be a manageable 35 and the more expensive ones are pretty much some of the CPG ones (cannot leave them out) and a few Carson City issues.
1873-CC C-1: Nearly the entire date is visible punched high into the denticles and there is a prominent gouge in the D/DOLLAR. [an MPD that needs to be in the list]
1873-CC C-2/4/5: FS-301 with three different reverse dies [CPG]
1875-S C-2.1: Large break on the first L/DOLLAR [a good one for pickers to spot and long known]
1875-S C-6: RPM S/CC FS-501 [CPG]
1875-S C-7/7.1: RPM S/CC FS-502 (7.1 has a break on the top of the second S/STATES) [CPG]
1875-S C-10.2/11.2: (10.2) Single break on R/DOLLAR and radial break through star 3, (11.2) Double break on R/DOLLAR and patch of die scratches in Liberty's lower garment [another for fun picking and not expensive]
1875-S C-12.1/14.1: Gouge between talon and branch end, two different obverses [another pick-worthy reverse]
1875-S C-25.1: Long radial break from the denticles to the lower IGWT right banner fold corner [too bold to deny]
1876-CC C-1/1.1: FS-801 DDR, 1.1 is with the CC connected by a horizontal scratch [CPG]
1876-CC C-3.2: Pitted stars 12 and 13, wide large CC, pin gouge in N/GRAINS [pick-worthy things going on]
1876-CC C-5.2: Gouges through INS/GRAINS, break on second T/STATES [more nice eye visible stuff]
1876-S C-12.1: Strong radial break left of star 4, crossing star joining crack, broken left side of right serif of U/UNITED [common enough, cheap, and very easy to see]
1876-S C-31: Type I/II with large S [elusive and stands out from the herd]
1876-S C-32.1: Strong radial break from denticles to the right of F/OF and into the EPU motto banner [nice, visible break]
1876-S C-33/35: RPD 76 FS-301, different reverses [CPG]
1876-S C-34.1: RPD 76 (not same as FS-301), radial break from rim between OL/DOLLAR [interesting one]
1876-S C-36.1: FS-101 DDO [CPG]
1876-S C-38: Type II/II with large S [rare and stands out from the other II/II ones] -- combine with C-31 above?
1877 C-10.1: Pitted obverse [pickable good and cheap intro one, but could be replaced]
1877 C-12/12.1: DDO left stars and wheat, 12.1 has a break between RA/TRADE [long known and worthwhile]
1877 C-13/14/15: DDO right stars and wheat FS-101 different reverses [CPG]
1877-S C-2/15.1/19.1/20: No dots, bullnose R/DOLLAR, different dies completely, 20 has crescent after AMERICA [fun to pick and the cheapest date, found at every price point and several different varieties]
1877-S C-3/3.1: Broken arrows, 3.1 has the lower shaft re-engraved [classic]
1877-S C-4: Duck lips feathers - SF Mint touched up reverse die (cited as a different hub elsewhere) [unique reverse]
1877-S C-16/16.1/17/18.1: DDR FS-802, three different obverses, 16 is before the arrow shaft break [CPG]
1877-S C-21: RPD 7, RPM S FS-301 [CPG]
1877-S C-22.1/22.2: Strong radial break through E/AMERICA, 22.2 has additional break to D/DOLLAR [very cool]
1877-S C-26/50.1/50.2: Large break on right IGWT banner end, 50.1/50.2 (progressive break on arrow shaft) was earlier than 26 [largest break]
1877-S C-32.1: Long, heavy radial break from rim, between AD/TRADE to A/GRAINS [stands out, but I have one and have seen no others so far, might be too difficult, but it is a cheap date]
1877-S C-38.1: Radial breaks to lower wheat, right side of F/OF to banner, and through R/DOLLAR [lots going on]
1877-S C-46: DDR FS-801 [CPG]
1877-S C-47.1: Radial break through the first S/STATES to the banner [really cool break and difficult to find]
1878-S C-16.1: Pinned Liberty with thin horizontal gouges in garment thighs and through left wrist [neat, but another that could be replaced]
1878-S C-18/18.1/18.2/18.3: DDR FS-801, 18.1 is heavily clashed, 18.2 is remediated with large wing edge chip [CPG]
@kaz said:
I have to say, this thread has been an impressive presentation of numismatic scholarship-in-progress.
But based on the thread title, nobody would ever find it. LOL
We just need jesbroken to edit the title! Maybe... "Trade Dollar heavyweights present plans for definitive guidebooks"
or something else that will draw thousands of views...
Hope this helps.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@OriginalDan said:
As a TD variety specialist, if I was just starting out and I saw a list of 50 or 100 TDs I’d turn around and go collect something else. They are too expensive for one, to do that many, and to make a list that long you’re including a lot of minor varieties that like Crypto said don’t get collectors excited. It’s only a 7 year set with not a ton of major mistakes by the mint.
I would keep it manageable, in the 25-30 coin range, and include the more major, seeing eye varieties no matter how rare.
when you publish, make varieties with special codes so PCGS and NGC can then charge for designating them and have a registry set for them. Is 1878 proof really a variety?
... or have 15-20 major varieties and 60-80 complete
@OriginalDan said:
As a TD variety specialist, if I was just starting out and I saw a list of 50 or 100 TDs I’d turn around and go collect something else. They are too expensive for one, to do that many, and to make a list that long you’re including a lot of minor varieties that like Crypto said don’t get collectors excited. It’s only a 7 year set with not a ton of major mistakes by the mint.
I would keep it manageable, in the 25-30 coin range, and include the more major, seeing eye varieties no matter how rare.
when you publish, make varieties with special codes so PCGS and NGC can then charge for designating them and have a registry set for them. Is 1878 proof really a variety?
... or have 15-20 major varieties and 60-80 complete
No the 78 proof isn’t a variety but it was a glaring hole in an otherwise large set due to there being no BS strikes that year so it was needed to have all the dates and MMs from 73-78. I also wanted at least one of the proof only years. That was my set, others are free to define it as they chose fit.
Also the varieties have NGC numbers already including all the hub types, Doubled dies, RPDs and the rest of the FS numbers and many of the unique mint marks
Ok folks, when can we expect the first release of the pdf version of Trade Dollar Book and how much? C'mon let's get serious about this, I am a serious buyer.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
What should happen is @mbogoman should publish his amazing set in the LSCC journal with pictures and pick up points as a variety guide. I bet they would provide the templates and Dan and I could help with pictures of alts or gaps and group edit. It would make a hell of an issue and set a standard
@jesbroken said:
Ok folks, when can we expect the first release of the pdf version of Trade Dollar Book and how much? C'mon let's get serious about this, I am a serious buyer.
Jim
maybe you can talk them into a pre-publication pdf in order to proof, correct errors and give suggestions
(typos, syntax, formatting, logic ... )
someone that actually knows about the subject can do a better job than a publisher editor in many things
Everything else can be found in about a year. It would take a decade and luck for most of those
You should clarify the 74-cc wide 1.2 entry. Generally I agree with your ordering, and I would add one more - the 76 type 1.5 "4 finger" (business strike)...somewhere towards the end of this list. I think it's about the same rarity as the 76 2/2.
Everything else can be found in about a year. It would take a decade and luck for most of those
You should clarify the 74-cc wide 1.2 entry. Generally I agree with your ordering, and I would add one more - the 76 type 1.5 "4 finger" (business strike)...somewhere towards the end of this list. I think it's about the same rarity as the 76 2/2.
I have not seen such a beast as a business strike 1876 with a four-finger Type I (so-called Type1.5) obverse. If anyone has a link to one in an auction archive or would share images, it would be much appreciated. If it does exist, it must be a big rarity. I would like to see if it was the same die pair as the proof or even the same obverse die.
Everything else can be found in about a year. It would take a decade and luck for most of those
You should clarify the 74-cc wide 1.2 entry. Generally I agree with your ordering, and I would add one more - the 76 type 1.5 "4 finger" (business strike)...somewhere towards the end of this list. I think it's about the same rarity as the 76 2/2.
I have not seen such a beast as a business strike 1876 with a four-finger Type I (so-called Type1.5) obverse. If anyone has a link to one in an auction archive or would share images, it would be much appreciated. If it does exist, it must be a big rarity. I would like to see if it was the same die pair as the proof or even the same obverse die.
Thanks, @mbogoman and @DDR! That is the exact same die pair.
It raises an interesting secondary inquiry. Is there a different collar between the proof and circulation strike? We see the same issue for the 1875 Type II reverse proof. In that case, the proofs are rare but the business strikes not so much, in a relative sense. I had speculated that what are called proofs in that case might simply be specimen strikes in the initial use of the new hub product. Discriminating the collars would possibly reinforce that. Here might be the same, but the Mint might have decided to stop and produce the Type II obverse hub, rather than use the speculated engraved finger die, right away. This is the sort of thing Roger is excellent at in running down potential Mint documentation. It does hint at some pathology then and there.
It raises an interesting secondary inquiry. Is there a different collar between the proof and circulation strike? We see the same issue for the 1875 Type II reverse proof. In that case, the proofs are rare but the business strikes not so much, in a relative sense. I had speculated that what are called proofs in that case might simply be specimen strikes in the initial use of the new hub product. Discriminating the collars would possibly reinforce that. Here might be the same, but the Mint might have decided to stop and produce the Type II obverse hub, rather than use the speculated engraved finger die, right away. This is the sort of thing Roger is excellent at in running down potential Mint documentation. It does hint at some pathology then and there.
Yes there is a different collar with different Reed counts for the 76 4 finger proving different emissions. @OriginalDan and I got super nerdy into them a few years ago and we might still have the counts laying around
Everything else can be found in about a year. It would take a decade and luck for most of those
You should clarify the 74-cc wide 1.2 entry. Generally I agree with your ordering, and I would add one more - the 76 type 1.5 "4 finger" (business strike)...somewhere towards the end of this list. I think it's about the same rarity as the 76 2/2.
I have not seen such a beast as a business strike 1876 with a four-finger Type I (so-called Type1.5) obverse. If anyone has a link to one in an auction archive or would share images, it would be much appreciated. If it does exist, it must be a big rarity. I would like to see if it was the same die pair as the proof or even the same obverse die.
@alefzero said:
I have not seen such a beast as a business strike 1876 with a four-finger Type I (so-called Type1.5) obverse. If anyone has a link to one in an auction archive or would share images, it would be much appreciated. If it does exist, it must be a big rarity. I would like to see if it was the same die pair as the proof or even the same obverse die.
I kinda-sorta ended up with a hoard of these four-finger trade dollars. I have one (pictured above) that is 100% proof. I have a few that are clearly circulation strike. Then there are some REALLY interesting coins that make your head spin. I'm talking deep mirror, but rounded edges. Or razor sharp edges and semi-PL, but flat details. It sure seems like the mint was doing some experimentation with new hubs/dies and made a bag of these that weren't "all there".
Coin 1: This one is slam-dunk 100% proof (PCGS PR63CAM)
Coin 2: This one I think we can confidently say is circulation strike.
Coin 3: This one has really strong mirrors, but rounded edges. How can it be so mirrored but not struck like a proof? First off the line circulation strike?
Coin 4: This one I think is also a circulation strike, but the recessed areas still show a little PL flash.
Coin 5: Here's an impaired proof, look at the strike, feather detail, edges...
Coin 6: Here's a chopmarked example. (DDR posted above)
Coin 7: Another chopmarked example.
Coin 8: Finally, one more, maybe a chopmark.
I have reed counts for a few of these:
Coin 2: 193
Coin 3: 194
Coin 4: 194
Coin 8: 194
I think all 4 of those are circulation strikes, so maybe the difference in collar is not the dividing line between circulation strike and proof. I was hoping it was. Maybe with more examples we'll be able to establish a pattern.
My takeaway. You have to study the whole coin. Strike, fields, and edges. And sometimes you still don't know.
P.S. I don't own all of these coins, just most of them. In case you're thinking these are common, they are not. This was years of multiple eyes scouring eBay, coin shows HA etc. Shout out to @Crypto, those were the days buddy.
PPS. @alefzero I didn't answer you're original question. Same obverse and reverse die as the proof. And here's a coin to blow your mind. A "regular" old 76 1/2, but used the same reverse die as the 4-finger and 2/2.
Amazing to see all of them in one group. VERY COOL.
Here are the counts I have in the enumeration of dies and varieties thus far, through 1878. Counts before the parentheses are of varieties, which is subjective.
1873: 11 (2 proof die pairs, 4 business die pairs)
1873-CC: 7 (7 die pairs)
1873-S: 7 (7 die pairs)
1874: 12 (2 proof die pairs, 9 business die pairs)
1874-CC: 22 (21 die pairs)
1874-S: 14 (14 die pairs)
1875: 6 (2 I/I proof die pairs, 1 I/II proof die pair, 1 I/I business die pair, 2 I/II business die pairs - 1 same as proof pair)
1875-CC: 15 (12 I/I die pairs, 3 I/II die pairs)
1875-S: 39 (22 I/I die pairs, 9 I/II die pairs)
1876: 16 (1 I/I proof die pair, 5 I/II proof die pairs, 1 II/II proof die pair, 2 I/I business die pairs, 6 I/II business die pairs - 1 same as proof pair, 1 II/II business die pair - same as proof pair)
1876-CC: 14 (3 I/I die pairs, 7 I/II die pairs)
1876-S: 49 (22 I/I die pairs, 8 I/II die pairs, 10 II/II die pairs)
1877: 29 (3 proof die pairs, 23 business die pairs)
1877-CC: 14 (10 die pairs)
1877-S: 69 (59 die pairs)
1878: 3 (3 die pairs)
1878-CC: 4 (4 die pairs)
1878-S: 20 (18 die pairs)
That is 351 varieties, 307 die pairs (20 proof and 284 business, 3 were reused proof pairs for business strikes), if I counted right. 198 obverse dies and 205 reverse dies (48 null, 46 CC, 111 S) used. The CC and S reverses prepared, per Bowers, is in the ballpark, being 48 and 119 respectively. The missing 2 CC might be accounted for as the two reverses sent later to San Francisco as the S/CC ones. There were some unknowns and plus numbers given, but some may have been returned unused, destroyed, or entire die productions may have been lost to Asian melts/overstrikes post-delivery. I could do the counts on discrete dated obverse dies for each mint, but this is enough for now. I need to think about getting ready for Long Beach.
Checked out your web site listing of Trade Dollars, very detailed, great photos, very cool
On publishing, I can show you how and connect to my printers, which will professionally print any number of copies
for a relatively inexpensive amount. I have written 58 books to date, mostly have only printed 100-200 copies of the
last few books. Completing the Restrike book, roughly 450 pages, will only print 100. Distribute mostly myself and
also through a few of the main book wholesalers.
Over the years, always work on many books in the background, when I have enough for a single book, focus on that.
Then I dive into history, hot topics, archive research and such. Of course the big hot topic on the Trades is the 84 and 85 proofs.
Documenting Trade dollar die varieties (doubled dies, mpds, rpds) for years
Photographed
1876 DDO (1)
1876-S DDO (1)
1876-CC DDR (1)
1877 DDO (2) DDR (2)
1877-S DDR (2)
1878-S DDR (4)
1875-S/CC (1), the second listed in CP is to small to be the remnant of a C mintmark
1873-CC MPD (2)
1876-S MPD (1)
1875 RPD (1)
1876-S RPD (1)
1877 RPD (1)
I have these in a PDF, if you write me at kevinjflynn88@yahoo.com, I can send you a copy
Thanks
Kevin
@alefzero said:
Amazing to see all of them in one group. VERY COOL.
I've studied the 76 II/II coins extensively, and if you look at a bunch of the proof examples, you'll see varying degrees of "doubling" on US of A lettering. My theory is this is an artifact of multiple strikes, not something present on the reverse die. You'll see some of these (same die) with zero "doubling" and others with quite a bit, and it can vary in location.
Are you suggesting there's more than one II/II die pair? That would be news to me.
The doubling on OF on this coin is strike doubling, it is not die doubling
For my book
I am pretty far along with the die variety section (doubled dies, MPDs, RPD, OMM, RPM)
Should have most of the archive records I need
Have to write the history, hub changes, hot topics, 84&85 proofs, refuted 1875-O/CC #2
I've studied the 76 II/II coins extensively, and if you look at a bunch of the proof examples, you'll see varying degrees of "doubling" on US of A lettering. My theory is this is an artifact of multiple strikes, not something present on the reverse die. You'll see some of these (same die) with zero "doubling" and others with quite a bit, and it can vary in location.
Are you suggesting there's more than one II/II die pair? That would be news to me.
The doubling on OF on this coin is strike doubling, it is not die doubling
Yep. Note the quotes I used and the description of how it can vary coin to coin. Pretty clear what it is.
Took delivery of the first printing of the Trade Challenge 50 book, outlining a subset of the series that is composed of interesting and promotable die pairs. 100 copies. I will put them out at the Long Beach show next week and move what remains after the show. A second printing will correct a couple small issues and probably add hub diagnostics.
The complete listing of dies and die pairs is coming out before the Pittsburgh ANA WFoM. This one is about 170 pages. The big book might be closer to 800, with no fluff or history - just listings and associated details to attribute and authenticate. I am inclined to print that one in black and white (this book being full color) to control costs and thus prices.
I am trying to keep it close to my cost, as this was to popularize things rather than make bread. I am looking at $50 for non--tax situation, $55 for taxed ones (I just do the adjustment to work it out for the tax guys), $5 if I need to ship, and $60 if I sell on eBay.
I am considering printing the big listing book as black and white to keep costs down. This was done in color. Depends on the quotes and what won't be painful to purchase. This one was 170 pages and the bigger one is around 800 pages last I looked.
If you PM me with your address, I will send you a check for $60 that should cover book plus shipping, and put me on your list for the 800 page big book.
Comments
Not at all. A single II/II proof. The business pairing of the proof obverse die was also II/II. Have you determined the reverses to also be the same? (Such was done the prior year for the I/II proof pair.) That business pair is the only one in the catalogue where I couldn't identify a distinct marker for the reverse. The proof I imaged the OF doubled. Yes, I know, especially with proofs, strike doubling is a distinct possibility. I saw it on at least a couple. If you, having studied the 1876 especially, have some points to make in that regard, it would be very welcome and helpful. That is what the review process was meant to do. But it works at this stage too. Even the Type II reverse for the I/II business pair is pretty indistinct. The only thing noted was weakness on the FINE dot on some of them. (The proofs were more understudied pretty generally, especially after 1877.)
The same reverse die used for the II/II proof was used with the 4 finger obverse proof, 4 finger obverse business strike, and a regular I/II business strike. That reverse “got around”.
There’s a small die chip on the right side of the ribbon of the E Pluribus banner on that reverse.
Just noticed, I think you’re missing this obverse in your list. This is what I call the 4 finger obverse. It’s otherwise type I, but the finger count looks like type II.
I was not sure how to classify that one. Some apparently call it 1.5. Does it look hand engraved to you or creatively hubbed? I am thinking the former. I recall one reverse having a chip a chip at the lower part of the right fold of the EPU banner. I will need to revisit those coins to see if that was it. If it was the same die, it will simplify things a bit. They really did reuse dies a lot, especially in Carson City.
In addition to a QA review, I am looking for proposals for inclusions in a reasonably sized list, like the VAM Top 100. Trying to steer clear of ultrararities that make such a set achievable by only one or two and with a ton of bucks. Something like the wide small cc for 1875 would be such a coin, while that for 1874 might be a welcome challenge.
I humbly disagree with this approach. Whether or not a variety is ultrarare should have no bearing on whether or not it is included. "Achievability" is a function of one's wallet no matter what you collect and is subjective. The list should be objective and not based on what may or may not be affordable depending on the size of one's wallet. If the variety verifiably exists, it must be included. The "small wide cc" set (as you referred to) is an excellent and obvious example. Put an asterisk by the ultrarare ones indicating so. Those who collect the set would want to know about the rarities so they can look for them.
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
There is a way of accommodating both: include both for that slot in the set. The Ultrararity would obviously be worth more points and $$$, but completion would be less elusive. There are ultrararities among the Morgan list sets: 1889 VAM-23A is an example. Part of the reasoning behind its inclusion was that people then looking for it would ferret out others in the wild. But that backfired when Jeff O did the Hit List. He included the 1921-D VAM-1X. Turned out that the only known specimen to date is the one he owns. It is a great one with huge obverse cuds and attendant flow starvation. It was somewhat changed by splitting it into two possibilities. One was that one, redesignated 1X2. The other the earlier state, without cuds, listed as 1X1.
In this case, perhaps the challenge could leave many with a vacancy or two for most collectors, and with some hope and dream of picking that wide 1875-cc. I'll start another thread soon enough one this proposed list and maybe we can hack it out as an informed community. There are some far less challenging but interesting, like the 1877-S broken arrows (comes in two states, one tougher, and is difficult above AU), that differentiate such a list from a list of the rarest of the rare. I am more inclined in that direction. That 1875-cc is elusive, to say the least, and also interesting. It would be harder to justify it if it were a Philly release with nothing particularly going on except an unremarkable date position being extremely rare.
@alefzero
I disagree about excluding coins like the 75cc Wide (although I admit I am not impartial). Couple of points.
-100 Vams is too many. the big coins get lost in the little ones and a day top 25 list is what makes it completable, not excluding rare or expensive challenges. The 78cc is more expensive than any Trade variety save maybe the 76 2/2 and the 76s DDO but those would make any list even though there is only about 12-15 76s DDOs known which is very rare. Peace dollars and Morgans have had the larger varieties suppressed by the proliferation of VAMs somewhat. a 1901 shiffted eagle which is a major DDR is listed the same as a minor clash on a common 1903o. It becomes overload at a point
-The Wide CCs are one of the oldest recognized varieties being mentioned in auction listing back to at lest the 1940s, the subset of a 73,74,75 & 76 wide CC that all share the same rev die is one of the seminal accomplishments for specialists of the series and has been done by at least 4 different people on this board. It is possible
-A varieties list is about a coin being worthy of note, not always easy to get. Remember hard for one person might be easy for another.
-By adding it to the list you are encouraging others to look for them, each one of the 3 known were found for less than a $1000 buck each by true experts on the series. This group has also picked multiple 76s DDOs (4 and counting), 76 4 finger type 1/2 and countless other cool coins. Inclusion encourages discovery
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
When Dale Miller and I made a Top 100 list for seated half dimes,
we did some fence sitting on this question.
We made a "collectible" Top 100, then added another 8 that we called
"Great but Too Rare for the Top 100".
Essentially we made 2 lists, one of 100 and another of 108.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1035720/top-100-seated-half-dime-varieties-list-and-112-page-pdf
And yeah, estimated rarity can change, especially in response to the list.
One coin I thought would be on the "Too Rare" list was the 1853 V-8a (big reverse cud).
For fun I looked for it on ebay, was surprised to find one, bought it, and this upped the count enough to make it collectible,
so it's on the regular Top 100.
I floored the idea, but if you see my reply, it seems good. I am not going to dictate such a list but collaborate it here soon in a separate post.
Never suggested it be 100 coins, just that it be a somewhat equivalent to the Morgan Top 100. There are over 5000 Morgan varieties and 100 was a reasonable number for such a list for that series. Turned out, for better or worse, it was followed by a Hot 50, Hit List 40, and other lists for that series. But it also has a huge and variety-motivated collector base.
I have not done a full count yet, but there are roughly 200 obverse and 200 reverse dies from 1873 through 1878 for the Trade dollars. So it is more on the order of 10% of the size of the Morgan catalogue. But certainly 10 varieties in a list would not motivate many collectors. We can hammer that out soon and separately.
Here is, off the top of my head a rough idea of a starting point for interesting and some rare varieties worth considering. The numbering, of course, is meaningless to others at this point. It is for me to keep my thoughts straight (using a C- prefix as seems to be the convention). The descriptions should be familiar enough.
So it is easy to arrive at an interesting and challenging 50-coin set with such considerations. There are also plenty of not dots after FINE, maybe chopmarked 1875 and 1878-CC, plenty of poor man's DDRs, lots of other clashes and breaks, and some that have eluded me. Could put the wide small cc ones in a single slot too (crazy points for 1875-cc). Anyway, something to think about and we can dedicate a thread to hashing it out. Seems 50 might be a fun number, perhaps calling it the Challenge 50.
When I did a variety set I included all the hub types as the back bone of the set and
73 CC MPD FS 301 & 302
73 wide CC 1.0 & 1.2 mm
74 cc wide CC 1.0 & 1.2mm
75s/cc FS 501 & 502
75s micro S (it’s a RPD too)
75cc wide CC 1.2mm
76 1.5/2 proof and business strike
76p type 1/1 Perfect rev no broken letters
76s DDO
76s RPD
76s 1/2 large S & micro s
76s 2/2 large S & micro s
76 cc DDR
76 cc type 1/1 non DDR
76 cc Wide CC 1.2mm
77p DDO
77s broken arrows
77s RPD
77s DDR 801 & 802
77s micro S
78s DDR FS801
78 proof
Coins I looked for but never added
76s Type 1/1 date in denticals
76 1/1 proof
When coupled to the rarer hub type namely the 75p 1/1 and the 76 2/2 it was a massively challenging set. Die lines don’t fire up collectors outside of true students so I aimed for naked eye vanities and rare or unusual MM combos
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
@alefzero
And @OriginalDan is correct the die chip in eplurb banner rev is used on all 76p 2/2, 76p 1.5/2 coins proof and uncirculated and one 76p 1/2 business strike coin
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Are there any 76 1/2 proof coins?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I have to say, this thread has been an impressive presentation of numismatic scholarship-in-progress.
@Crypto - Yes, that's where we need to go. Consider a number of approaches to arrive at one that has a reasonable chance of market acceptance, can be collected from VF on up, and other considerations. There is also no reason other specialist lists are impossible. I was hesitant to even include proofs because that knocks some collectors right out. Maybe a Challenge list for the more budget-minded collectors and an Elite set for the whales. Of course, all the CPG need to be included, except perhaps the 1878-S FS-802. Has anyone even seen one? I have not. Seen a few minor DDRs though.
But based on the thread title, nobody would ever find it. LOL
Yes, most of the proofs I have seen are Type I obverse and Type II reverse. Identified 4 die pairs and two of those reverses were reused.
As a TD variety specialist, if I was just starting out and I saw a list of 50 or 100 TDs I’d turn around and go collect something else. They are too expensive for one, to do that many, and to make a list that long you’re including a lot of minor varieties that like Crypto said don’t get collectors excited. It’s only a 7 year set with not a ton of major mistakes by the mint.
I would keep it manageable, in the 25-30 coin range, and include the more major, seeing eye varieties no matter how rare.
I forgot a big one,
The 76p type 1/1 perfect reverse (without broken letters)
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Not a proof, I presume, as I have seen no such beast. So it would be a huge rarity. Here is the only such business strike I have found. Have noted only a few of them.
We just need jesbroken to edit the title! Maybe... "Trade Dollar heavyweights present plans for definitive guidebooks"
or something else that will draw thousands of views...
I think you are right. As collectors get more advanced they will gravitate to more. I also think a couple different lists makes more sense. The guys already doing varieties to some extent would want a more spanning and difficult list. But how about this reduction from the 56 I posed for a one geared to new collectors? Again the idea is that many more would be buying coins in the hundreds of dollars each, not thousands, and mostly the more common dates. Here are 33 and could add a slot for the small wide cc which would be good for 1873 through 1876 and another (77-s small s, ...). That would be a manageable 35 and the more expensive ones are pretty much some of the CPG ones (cannot leave them out) and a few Carson City issues.
1873-CC C-1: Nearly the entire date is visible punched high into the denticles and there is a prominent gouge in the D/DOLLAR. [an MPD that needs to be in the list]
1873-CC C-2/4/5: FS-301 with three different reverse dies [CPG]
1875-S C-2.1: Large break on the first L/DOLLAR [a good one for pickers to spot and long known]
1875-S C-6: RPM S/CC FS-501 [CPG]
1875-S C-7/7.1: RPM S/CC FS-502 (7.1 has a break on the top of the second S/STATES) [CPG]
1875-S C-10.2/11.2: (10.2) Single break on R/DOLLAR and radial break through star 3, (11.2) Double break on R/DOLLAR and patch of die scratches in Liberty's lower garment [another for fun picking and not expensive]
1875-S C-12.1/14.1: Gouge between talon and branch end, two different obverses [another pick-worthy reverse]
1875-S C-25.1: Long radial break from the denticles to the lower IGWT right banner fold corner [too bold to deny]
1876-CC C-1/1.1: FS-801 DDR, 1.1 is with the CC connected by a horizontal scratch [CPG]
1876-CC C-3.2: Pitted stars 12 and 13, wide large CC, pin gouge in N/GRAINS [pick-worthy things going on]
1876-CC C-5.2: Gouges through INS/GRAINS, break on second T/STATES [more nice eye visible stuff]
1876-S C-12.1: Strong radial break left of star 4, crossing star joining crack, broken left side of right serif of U/UNITED [common enough, cheap, and very easy to see]
1876-S C-31: Type I/II with large S [elusive and stands out from the herd]
1876-S C-32.1: Strong radial break from denticles to the right of F/OF and into the EPU motto banner [nice, visible break]
1876-S C-33/35: RPD 76 FS-301, different reverses [CPG]
1876-S C-34.1: RPD 76 (not same as FS-301), radial break from rim between OL/DOLLAR [interesting one]
1876-S C-36.1: FS-101 DDO [CPG]
1876-S C-38: Type II/II with large S [rare and stands out from the other II/II ones] -- combine with C-31 above?
1877 C-10.1: Pitted obverse [pickable good and cheap intro one, but could be replaced]
1877 C-12/12.1: DDO left stars and wheat, 12.1 has a break between RA/TRADE [long known and worthwhile]
1877 C-13/14/15: DDO right stars and wheat FS-101 different reverses [CPG]
1877-S C-2/15.1/19.1/20: No dots, bullnose R/DOLLAR, different dies completely, 20 has crescent after AMERICA [fun to pick and the cheapest date, found at every price point and several different varieties]
1877-S C-3/3.1: Broken arrows, 3.1 has the lower shaft re-engraved [classic]
1877-S C-4: Duck lips feathers - SF Mint touched up reverse die (cited as a different hub elsewhere) [unique reverse]
1877-S C-16/16.1/17/18.1: DDR FS-802, three different obverses, 16 is before the arrow shaft break [CPG]
1877-S C-21: RPD 7, RPM S FS-301 [CPG]
1877-S C-22.1/22.2: Strong radial break through E/AMERICA, 22.2 has additional break to D/DOLLAR [very cool]
1877-S C-26/50.1/50.2: Large break on right IGWT banner end, 50.1/50.2 (progressive break on arrow shaft) was earlier than 26 [largest break]
1877-S C-32.1: Long, heavy radial break from rim, between AD/TRADE to A/GRAINS [stands out, but I have one and have seen no others so far, might be too difficult, but it is a cheap date]
1877-S C-38.1: Radial breaks to lower wheat, right side of F/OF to banner, and through R/DOLLAR [lots going on]
1877-S C-46: DDR FS-801 [CPG]
1877-S C-47.1: Radial break through the first S/STATES to the banner [really cool break and difficult to find]
1878-S C-16.1: Pinned Liberty with thin horizontal gouges in garment thighs and through left wrist [neat, but another that could be replaced]
1878-S C-18/18.1/18.2/18.3: DDR FS-801, 18.1 is heavily clashed, 18.2 is remediated with large wing edge chip [CPG]
Hope this helps.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
when you publish, make varieties with special codes so PCGS and NGC can then charge for designating them and have a registry set for them. Is 1878 proof really a variety?
... or have 15-20 major varieties and 60-80 complete
No the 78 proof isn’t a variety but it was a glaring hole in an otherwise large set due to there being no BS strikes that year so it was needed to have all the dates and MMs from 73-78. I also wanted at least one of the proof only years. That was my set, others are free to define it as they chose fit.
Also the varieties have NGC numbers already including all the hub types, Doubled dies, RPDs and the rest of the FS numbers and many of the unique mint marks
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Ok folks, when can we expect the first release of the pdf version of Trade Dollar Book and how much? C'mon let's get serious about this, I am a serious buyer.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I see pdf versions cannibalizing sales from the print.
Print Pre-sales?
What should happen is @mbogoman should publish his amazing set in the LSCC journal with pictures and pick up points as a variety guide. I bet they would provide the templates and Dan and I could help with pictures of alts or gaps and group edit. It would make a hell of an issue and set a standard
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
maybe you can talk them into a pre-publication pdf in order to proof, correct errors and give suggestions
(typos, syntax, formatting, logic ... )
someone that actually knows about the subject can do a better job than a publisher editor in many things
In terms of rarity I rate them
75cc wide
76s DDO
77s ddr 801
75p type 1/1
76p perfect rev
73cc wide 1.2
74cc wide 1.0
73cc wide 1.0 MPD Obv
76 2/2
74cc wide
76 2/2 large S
Everything else can be found in about a year. It would take a decade and luck for most of those
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
You should clarify the 74-cc wide 1.2 entry. Generally I agree with your ordering, and I would add one more - the 76 type 1.5 "4 finger" (business strike)...somewhere towards the end of this list. I think it's about the same rarity as the 76 2/2.
I have not seen such a beast as a business strike 1876 with a four-finger Type I (so-called Type1.5) obverse. If anyone has a link to one in an auction archive or would share images, it would be much appreciated. If it does exist, it must be a big rarity. I would like to see if it was the same die pair as the proof or even the same obverse die.
@alefzero here you go... This one has a chop mark so pretty sure it is a business strike that circulated.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Here's the one from my collection, PCGS AU58:
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
Thanks, @mbogoman and @DDR! That is the exact same die pair.
It raises an interesting secondary inquiry. Is there a different collar between the proof and circulation strike? We see the same issue for the 1875 Type II reverse proof. In that case, the proofs are rare but the business strikes not so much, in a relative sense. I had speculated that what are called proofs in that case might simply be specimen strikes in the initial use of the new hub product. Discriminating the collars would possibly reinforce that. Here might be the same, but the Mint might have decided to stop and produce the Type II obverse hub, rather than use the speculated engraved finger die, right away. This is the sort of thing Roger is excellent at in running down potential Mint documentation. It does hint at some pathology then and there.
Yes there is a different collar with different Reed counts for the 76 4 finger proving different emissions. @OriginalDan and I got super nerdy into them a few years ago and we might still have the counts laying around
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I am not soooo sure that isn’t a proof.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I kinda-sorta ended up with a hoard of these four-finger trade dollars. I have one (pictured above) that is 100% proof. I have a few that are clearly circulation strike. Then there are some REALLY interesting coins that make your head spin. I'm talking deep mirror, but rounded edges. Or razor sharp edges and semi-PL, but flat details. It sure seems like the mint was doing some experimentation with new hubs/dies and made a bag of these that weren't "all there".
Coin 1: This one is slam-dunk 100% proof (PCGS PR63CAM)
Coin 2: This one I think we can confidently say is circulation strike.
Coin 3: This one has really strong mirrors, but rounded edges. How can it be so mirrored but not struck like a proof? First off the line circulation strike?
Coin 4: This one I think is also a circulation strike, but the recessed areas still show a little PL flash.
Coin 5: Here's an impaired proof, look at the strike, feather detail, edges...
Coin 6: Here's a chopmarked example. (DDR posted above)
Coin 7: Another chopmarked example.
Coin 8: Finally, one more, maybe a chopmark.
I have reed counts for a few of these:
Coin 2: 193
Coin 3: 194
Coin 4: 194
Coin 8: 194
I think all 4 of those are circulation strikes, so maybe the difference in collar is not the dividing line between circulation strike and proof. I was hoping it was. Maybe with more examples we'll be able to establish a pattern.
My takeaway. You have to study the whole coin. Strike, fields, and edges. And sometimes you still don't know.
P.S. I don't own all of these coins, just most of them. In case you're thinking these are common, they are not. This was years of multiple eyes scouring eBay, coin shows HA etc. Shout out to @Crypto, those were the days buddy.
PPS. @alefzero I didn't answer you're original question. Same obverse and reverse die as the proof. And here's a coin to blow your mind. A "regular" old 76 1/2, but used the same reverse die as the 4-finger and 2/2.
Put me down for a printed copy.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Amazing to see all of them in one group. VERY COOL.
Here are the counts I have in the enumeration of dies and varieties thus far, through 1878. Counts before the parentheses are of varieties, which is subjective.
1873: 11 (2 proof die pairs, 4 business die pairs)
1873-CC: 7 (7 die pairs)
1873-S: 7 (7 die pairs)
1874: 12 (2 proof die pairs, 9 business die pairs)
1874-CC: 22 (21 die pairs)
1874-S: 14 (14 die pairs)
1875: 6 (2 I/I proof die pairs, 1 I/II proof die pair, 1 I/I business die pair, 2 I/II business die pairs - 1 same as proof pair)
1875-CC: 15 (12 I/I die pairs, 3 I/II die pairs)
1875-S: 39 (22 I/I die pairs, 9 I/II die pairs)
1876: 16 (1 I/I proof die pair, 5 I/II proof die pairs, 1 II/II proof die pair, 2 I/I business die pairs, 6 I/II business die pairs - 1 same as proof pair, 1 II/II business die pair - same as proof pair)
1876-CC: 14 (3 I/I die pairs, 7 I/II die pairs)
1876-S: 49 (22 I/I die pairs, 8 I/II die pairs, 10 II/II die pairs)
1877: 29 (3 proof die pairs, 23 business die pairs)
1877-CC: 14 (10 die pairs)
1877-S: 69 (59 die pairs)
1878: 3 (3 die pairs)
1878-CC: 4 (4 die pairs)
1878-S: 20 (18 die pairs)
That is 351 varieties, 307 die pairs (20 proof and 284 business, 3 were reused proof pairs for business strikes), if I counted right. 198 obverse dies and 205 reverse dies (48 null, 46 CC, 111 S) used. The CC and S reverses prepared, per Bowers, is in the ballpark, being 48 and 119 respectively. The missing 2 CC might be accounted for as the two reverses sent later to San Francisco as the S/CC ones. There were some unknowns and plus numbers given, but some may have been returned unused, destroyed, or entire die productions may have been lost to Asian melts/overstrikes post-delivery. I could do the counts on discrete dated obverse dies for each mint, but this is enough for now. I need to think about getting ready for Long Beach.
Alefzero,
Checked out your web site listing of Trade Dollars, very detailed, great photos, very cool
On publishing, I can show you how and connect to my printers, which will professionally print any number of copies
for a relatively inexpensive amount. I have written 58 books to date, mostly have only printed 100-200 copies of the
last few books. Completing the Restrike book, roughly 450 pages, will only print 100. Distribute mostly myself and
also through a few of the main book wholesalers.
Over the years, always work on many books in the background, when I have enough for a single book, focus on that.
Then I dive into history, hot topics, archive research and such. Of course the big hot topic on the Trades is the 84 and 85 proofs.
Documenting Trade dollar die varieties (doubled dies, mpds, rpds) for years
Photographed
1876 DDO (1)
1876-S DDO (1)
1876-CC DDR (1)
1877 DDO (2) DDR (2)
1877-S DDR (2)
1878-S DDR (4)
1875-S/CC (1), the second listed in CP is to small to be the remnant of a C mintmark
1873-CC MPD (2)
1876-S MPD (1)
1875 RPD (1)
1876-S RPD (1)
1877 RPD (1)
I have these in a PDF, if you write me at kevinjflynn88@yahoo.com, I can send you a copy
Thanks
Kevin
Where is alefzero's website? Where are you at with the new Trade Dollar Book?
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The doubling on OF on this coin is strike doubling, it is not die doubling
For John's web site
http://registry.ssdcvams.com/Trade/
For my book
I am pretty far along with the die variety section (doubled dies, MPDs, RPD, OMM, RPM)
Should have most of the archive records I need
Have to write the history, hub changes, hot topics, 84&85 proofs, refuted 1875-O/CC #2
Kevin
I'll be looking forward to it. Thank you Kevin for your work, it benefits us all.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Yep. Note the quotes I used and the description of how it can vary coin to coin. Pretty clear what it is.
Took delivery of the first printing of the Trade Challenge 50 book, outlining a subset of the series that is composed of interesting and promotable die pairs. 100 copies. I will put them out at the Long Beach show next week and move what remains after the show. A second printing will correct a couple small issues and probably add hub diagnostics.
The complete listing of dies and die pairs is coming out before the Pittsburgh ANA WFoM. This one is about 170 pages. The big book might be closer to 800, with no fluff or history - just listings and associated details to attribute and authenticate. I am inclined to print that one in black and white (this book being full color) to control costs and thus prices.
Congrats John! I will try to have a friend pick me up a copy at LB and I look forward to picking up the heavy duty version in Pittsburgh myself!
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
What is the price of the book?
I am trying to keep it close to my cost, as this was to popularize things rather than make bread. I am looking at $50 for non--tax situation, $55 for taxed ones (I just do the adjustment to work it out for the tax guys), $5 if I need to ship, and $60 if I sell on eBay.
I am considering printing the big listing book as black and white to keep costs down. This was done in color. Depends on the quotes and what won't be painful to purchase. This one was 170 pages and the bigger one is around 800 pages last I looked.
If you PM me with your address, I will send you a check for $60 that should cover book plus shipping, and put me on your list for the 800 page big book.