California Fractionals

SimpleCollector · September 2, 2021 2:54PM

As I look for some older gold coins for my type set, I have noticed that there seem to be more fractional coins available.

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts about California fractional coins.

Cool to own one.

Outlier and little interest - stay away

Fairly popular and interesting

I don’t know anything really about them, or how they are viewed and/or collected. Sometimes I think it might be interesting to maybe get 1 or 2, but then other times think they are a real fringe area and could be risky to own and hold. As such maybe getting more early gold commem’s would be better.

Any thoughts or insights would be appreciated.

Thanks,

SimpleCollector

Smudge · September 2, 2021 3:00PM

Be careful. Steep learning curve on those things.

PerryHall · September 2, 2021 3:04PM

@Smudge said:
Be careful. Steep learning curve on those things.

Agree. Suggest that you stick with PCGS and NGC graded coins. There's a lot of good information about this series on the PCGS Coin Facts web site.

MrEureka · September 2, 2021 3:18PM

Fantastic series to collect! Just read up on them first and come up with a plan before you start buying. Or, if you’re a little impatient, buy yourself one Period 1 octagonal dollar to get started and then do your homework.

gumby1234 · September 2, 2021 3:21PM

Collect what you like. As others have stated stick to certified examples. Many replicas and fakes out there.

FrankH · September 2, 2021 3:26PM

I would stick with what is known as "Period One." Those are the early ones and in my opinion where the history lies.
Slabbed only unless you are expert at authentication.
That goes to 1859 but I would go for pre 1856 just for the romance.

calgolddiver · September 2, 2021 3:29PM

certified examples only if just getting started. Coin Facts is a great reference. Also Breen Gillio guide to cal fractionals. @MrEureka has a good starting point recommendation. Lots of rarities and possible collection combinations. good luck with the quest. feel free to browse my registry sets.

Cameonut · September 2, 2021 3:45PM

I was about to jump in 100% for the Period One pieces but I got hooked on Capped Bust Halves instead. I only own one piece, a BG-222 circa 1853. It currently sits in my "for sale" box. Recently imaged by Todd. For me and my challenged eyesight, those little gold buggers are beautiful but hard to see compared to those huge CBH's.

MWallace · September 2, 2021 4:02PM

A while back I added three pieces and some California gold nuggets to my collection. The gold nuggets were recovered from the SS Central America and are the ONLY ones that we can be certain came from the California Gold Rush. All fractionals are from Period One, the only period I'm interested in.

I decided on the following four requirements of pieces to be added to my collection:
1. One of each denomination - 25c, 50c, $1.
2. At least one round and one octagon shaped.
3. At least one had to say "California Gold".
4. One dated 1856, 100 years before my birth year.

SimpleCollector · September 2, 2021 4:11PM

Thanks to everyone for the info so far. Didn’t even know about various periods. I will start to do more research. I rather like the idea of a 25cent, 50 cent, $1 idea. Also, I would only buy certified.

I hope others will continue to give thoughts and examples as it’s not an area I see discussed much here.

MrEureka · September 2, 2021 4:26PM

@FrankH said:
I would stick with what is known as "Period One." Those are the early ones and in my opinion where the history lies.
Slabbed only unless you are expert at authentication.
That goes to 1859 but I would go for pre 1856 just for the romance.

Good advice, but I have to add that there are virtually no counterfeit small Cal Gold pieces out there. Virtually all bogus pieces are fantasies of one sort or another, and do not match the design elements of the real coins.

That said, Cal Gold is often found cleaned, damaged and/or repaired, so slabs do serve a valuable purpose.

mvs7 · September 2, 2021 4:26PM

@MWallace said:
A while back I added three pieces and some California gold nuggets to my collection. The gold nuggets were recovered from the SS Central America and are the ONLY ones that we can be certain came from the California Gold Rush. All fractionals are from Period One, the only period I'm interested in.

I decided on the following four requirements of pieces to be added to my collection:
1. One of each denomination - 25c, 50c, $1.
2. At least one round and one octagon shaped.
3. At least one had to say "California Gold".
4. One dated 1856, 100 years before my birth year.

I also think these are cool additions to a collection of gold rush-era artifacts: nuggets, early S-mint federal coins, private issues, etc. The few pieces I have are also first period, and I do think in terms of eventually getting to a denomination/shape combo type set. There are so many out there to buy that I generally only pull the trigger if the color/look speak to me, for example:

Zoins · September 2, 2021 5:08PM

@mvs7 said:

@MWallace said:
A while back I added three pieces and some California gold nuggets to my collection. The gold nuggets were recovered from the SS Central America and are the ONLY ones that we can be certain came from the California Gold Rush. All fractionals are from Period One, the only period I'm interested in.

I decided on the following four requirements of pieces to be added to my collection:
1. One of each denomination - 25c, 50c, $1.
2. At least one round and one octagon shaped.
3. At least one had to say "California Gold".
4. One dated 1856, 100 years before my birth year.

I also think these are cool additions to a collection of gold rush-era artifacts: nuggets, early S-mint federal coins, private issues, etc. The few pieces I have are also first period, and I do think in terms of eventually getting to a denomination/shape combo type set. There are so many out there to buy that I generally only pull the trigger if the color/look speak to me, for example:

Beautiful half dollar! I love it!

291fifth · September 2, 2021 5:14PM

Unless you really know the series and the market I would avoid them.

thebeav · September 2, 2021 6:49PM

I've always loved the series. I've bought and sold hundreds of them over the years.
In many cases, nice coins can be had for less than 2 hundred bucks. Of course if your looking at 2 or 3 thousand dollar pieces, you should know what you're doing, but it's certainly not a series I would look at fearfully......

ricko · September 3, 2021 7:10AM

I find the fractional coins interesting, but, as noted above, fraught with danger. Plus, my interest is mainly the large gold coins (Saints etc.), and my $5 Indian. Cheers, RickO

FrankH · September 3, 2021 7:53AM

I prefer the private territorials over the fractionals

but still like individual fracts when they tone the right way.
Somehow I've ended up selling my fractionals.

matklang · September 10, 2021 6:49PM

I like the Cal. fractionals and have managed over the last 15 yrs to pick up a dozen very nice examples for 30-75$ each. Just watching the right auctions I guess. Always carry your scale and check the weight against specs and you shouldn't get burned. A scale, good glass (digital microscope to attach to your computer works great, like a celestron) and of course your computer to access sites like this to find the necc info and specs. Grading you just have to learn.

mvs7 · September 10, 2021 9:02PM

@FrankH said:
I prefer the private territorials over the fractionals

I think they complement each other nicely. The pioneer gold coins are getting harder to find and pricey even in circulated grades... this one is a favorite in my collection - PCGS VF35/CAC.

Zoins · September 10, 2021 9:06PM

@FrankH said:
I prefer the private territorials over the fractionals

but still like individual fracts when they tone the right way.
Somehow I've ended up selling my fractionals.

I always considered fractionals to be a subset of territorials.

Zoins · September 11, 2021 8:05AM

@Zoins said:

@FrankH said:
I prefer the private territorials over the fractionals

but still like individual fracts when they tone the right way.
Somehow I've ended up selling my fractionals.

I always considered fractionals to be a subset of territorials.

I think I misspoke. Let me try again:

I’ve always considered fractionals to be a fraction of territorials

Smudge · September 11, 2021 3:55PM

Beware of bears.

56morgan · September 11, 2021 4:01PM

How does one possibly hold these fractionals by the rims?

PerryHall · September 11, 2021 4:31PM

@56morgan said:
How does one possibly hold these fractionals by the rims?

The same way porcupines make love---very carefully.
Seriously, when you buy them already slabbed, handling them isn't a problem.

CaptainBlunt · September 12, 2021 3:01PM

Period One BG Breen Gillio Numbers

Octagonal Quarters Liberty Head BG 100’s
1853 BG 101, 102
1854 BG 103-105, 108-109
1855 BG 106, 110
1856 BG 107, 111

Round Quarters Liberty Head or Eagle BG 200’s
No date BG 201-207, 221, 224
1853 BG 208-215, 217-219
1854 BG 216
1854 BG 220 Defiant Eagle
1855 BG 225-227
1856 BG 228-230

Round Halves, Liberty Head or Arms of California BG 400’s
1852 BG 401, 407, 426, 427
1853 BG 402, 408-422 A, 428-430
1853 BG 435 Arms of California
1854 BG 403, 404, 423-425, 431, 436
1855 BG 405, 406, 432, 435
1856 434

Octagonal Dollars, Liberty Head BG 500’s
No Date BG 501
1853 502, 503, 505, 514-526, 530, 531
1854 504, 506-510, 513, 527-529, 532, 534
1855 511, 533
1856 512

Round Dollars, Liberty Head BG 600’s
1853 BG 604
1854 BG 601-603, 605, 606,
1857 BG 607

MrEureka · September 12, 2021 3:46PM

@matklang said:
I like the Cal. fractionals and have managed over the last 15 yrs to pick up a dozen very nice examples for 30-75$ each.

Almost exactly the same here, but my cost basis is a wee bit higher. And I only collect Period 1.

Zoins · September 12, 2021 3:52PM

@MrEureka said:

@matklang said:
I like the Cal. fractionals and have managed over the last 15 yrs to pick up a dozen very nice examples for 30-75$ each.

Almost exactly the same here, but my cost basis is a wee bit higher. And I only collect Period 1.

That sounds like a great way to collect these.

From a value perspective, I was astounded to find out this AU55 1854 quarter is a $50,000 coin!

calgolddiver · September 13, 2021 9:44AM

BG220 - only 4 graded by PCGS and this one is the lowest grade. Several other BG numbers are unique and good luck finding a 600 series round dollar !!

SimpleCollector · November 6, 2021 1:20PM

Ahh, there are so many threads that I could post this under:
-Ever have your LCS say hey look at this (actually it was me saying how did this end up here)
-recent purchases
-gold type set
-are interesting/great coins still unslabbed
And threads that I could make up like:
-things you find when you go to a LCS or show with no expectations
-why does your dealer never have anything you need when you have money, but when you are selling dupes to generate cash something interesting is always there

But I decided that here was the best place; based on this thread I had started awhile back. So today I walked into my LCS to sell a few coins that I have been meaning to get rid of but hadn’t had the chance. Was going to use the cash to upgrade my ski equipment. Closed the deal to sell them, he always pays in cash but was short as he is working a big deal; And was about to write a check. But hold on… I had seen an interesting poured silver bar and wanted to think about maybe taking that as part of a trade. As I was looking at that, I spied this piece in a corner. This dealer recently had slabbed a very rare Dahlonega $2.5, that he showed me…I asked him where this fractional came from, and he indicated it was from the same group of coins he got and recently back from ngc. As I had started this thread , been doing a little research, and been debating adding one to my gold type set. I asked him to take a look. Coin had nice eye appeal to me. Ngc cert look up indicated top pop( for what that was worth) , and price was under what I was trading in. Also, since it been months since I have added a coin, the impulsive side took over and this came home today.

These coins are very small, that said, it is actually a tad bit easier to see than I thought and pretty easy to appreciate with a low level loupe/ glass. That said, it was a pain to get any pics with my phone. My daughter has been using my good camera, so all I can share are these pics.

Hope you like it.

CaptainBlunt · November 6, 2021 2:26PM

A number of BG 229’s were recovered from the wreck of the S.S. Central America. There were several graded MS 66 topped out by one specimen graded MS 66+. I think some of the passengers were bringing them back from California as souvenirs.

Goldminers · November 7, 2021 4:51AM

@Smudge said:
Beware of bears.

PerryHall · November 7, 2021 5:47AM

@Goldminers said:

@Smudge said:
Beware of bears.

Can we get a pic of the obverse with the label?

Goldminers · November 7, 2021 6:16AM

Smudge · November 7, 2021 7:20AM

@Goldminers said:

@Smudge said:
Beware of bears.

Occasionally a bear is kosher on one of those, but as I said there is a steep learning curve on those and most with a bear and no dol, dollar or denomination is a cheap contemporary token.

Zoins · November 7, 2021 7:23AM

@Smudge said:

@Goldminers said:

@Smudge said:
Beware of bears.

Occasionally a bear is kosher on one of those, but as I said there is a steep learning curve on those and most with a bear and no dol, dollar or denomination is a cheap contemporary token.

How steep of a learning curve is it?

Is it just a matter of looking at some references and using a few heuristics as you mention?

PerryHall · November 7, 2021 7:28AM

@Smudge said:

@Goldminers said:

@Smudge said:
Beware of bears.

Occasionally a bear is kosher on one of those, but as I said there is a steep learning curve on those and most with a bear and no dol, dollar or denomination is a cheap contemporary token.

If a California fractional gold coin is not list in the standard Breen-Gillio reference book, it's not a legitimate coin. The PCGS Coin Facts site has a section with all the B-G coins listed with information and pictures for each coin.

Goldminers · November 7, 2021 7:38AM

Since a bear was mentioned, I thought a photo of a bear token was worth posting, but it is not a California fractional coin, but still a neat gold collectable.

PerryHall · November 7, 2021 7:56AM

@Goldminers said:
Since a bear was mentioned, I thought a photo of a bear token was worth posting, but it is not a California fractional coin, but still a neat gold collectable.

Neat looking token. I remember seeing many of them in the 1960's. Unfortunately people have been selling them as genuine coins from the gold rush era.

WAYNEAS · November 7, 2021 8:52AM

I have a 1960 era 4 coin replica set.
Always fascinated me but never gave me the desire to get a real one.
Wayne

jcping · November 10, 2021 11:56PM

@PerryHall said:

@Smudge said:

@Goldminers said:

@Smudge said:
Beware of bears.

Occasionally a bear is kosher on one of those, but as I said there is a steep learning curve on those and most with a bear and no dol, dollar or denomination is a cheap contemporary token.

If a California fractional gold coin is not list in the standard Breen-Gillio reference book, it's not a legitimate coin. The PCGS Coin Facts site has a section with all the B-G coins listed with information and pictures for each coin.

Unfortunately, I disagree with your statement. The California No Denomination fractional gold charms were not listed in BG reference book but they are legitimate ones. It is a matter that no one wrote a book about them.

PerryHall · November 11, 2021 2:47AM

@jcping said:

@PerryHall said:

@Smudge said:

@Goldminers said:

@Smudge said:
Beware of bears.

Occasionally a bear is kosher on one of those, but as I said there is a steep learning curve on those and most with a bear and no dol, dollar or denomination is a cheap contemporary token.

If a California fractional gold coin is not list in the standard Breen-Gillio reference book, it's not a legitimate coin. The PCGS Coin Facts site has a section with all the B-G coins listed with information and pictures for each coin.

Unfortunately, I disagree with your statement. The California No Denomination fractional gold charms were not listed in BG reference book but they are legitimate ones. It is a matter that no one wrote a book about them.

Read what I said. If they don't have a denomination they are considered to be tokens rather than coins.

Zoins · November 11, 2021 5:25AM

@PerryHall said:

@jcping said:

@PerryHall said:

@Smudge said:

@Goldminers said:

@Smudge said:
Beware of bears.

Occasionally a bear is kosher on one of those, but as I said there is a steep learning curve on those and most with a bear and no dol, dollar or denomination is a cheap contemporary token.

If a California fractional gold coin is not list in the standard Breen-Gillio reference book, it's not a legitimate coin. The PCGS Coin Facts site has a section with all the B-G coins listed with information and pictures for each coin.

Unfortunately, I disagree with your statement. The California No Denomination fractional gold charms were not listed in BG reference book but they are legitimate ones. It is a matter that no one wrote a book about them.

Read what I said. If they don't have a denomination they are considered to be tokens rather than coins.

What is the thought process behind this? Is it that the non-denominated ones are charms that weren't use for commerce?

edwardjulio · November 11, 2021 9:06AM

PerryHall · November 11, 2021 9:28AM

@Zoins said:

@PerryHall said:

@jcping said:

@PerryHall said:

@Smudge said:

@Goldminers said:

@Smudge said:
Beware of bears.

Occasionally a bear is kosher on one of those, but as I said there is a steep learning curve on those and most with a bear and no dol, dollar or denomination is a cheap contemporary token.

If a California fractional gold coin is not list in the standard Breen-Gillio reference book, it's not a legitimate coin. The PCGS Coin Facts site has a section with all the B-G coins listed with information and pictures for each coin.

Unfortunately, I disagree with your statement. The California No Denomination fractional gold charms were not listed in BG reference book but they are legitimate ones. It is a matter that no one wrote a book about them.

Read what I said. If they don't have a denomination they are considered to be tokens rather than coins.

What is the thought process behind this? Is it that the non-denominated ones are charms that weren't use for commerce?

The Treasury Department started cracking down on these coins in 1882 for violating the Coinage Act of 1864 so the makers of these coins eliminated the denomination to stay within the requirements of the law. These were not only popular as souvenirs and novelties but also for use in the jewelry trade. That's why so many surviving examples are holed or have solder on the rim.

thebeav · November 11, 2021 9:31AM

@jcping said:

It is a matter that no one wrote a book about them.

The book is not just about charms and tokens, but it's a pretty good reference for them.
"Small California and Territorial Gold Coins", by R.H. Burnie, 1955

Zoins · November 11, 2021 9:32AM

@PerryHall said:

@Zoins said:

@PerryHall said:

@jcping said:

@PerryHall said:

@Smudge said:

@Goldminers said:

@Smudge said:
Beware of bears.

Occasionally a bear is kosher on one of those, but as I said there is a steep learning curve on those and most with a bear and no dol, dollar or denomination is a cheap contemporary token.

If a California fractional gold coin is not list in the standard Breen-Gillio reference book, it's not a legitimate coin. The PCGS Coin Facts site has a section with all the B-G coins listed with information and pictures for each coin.

Unfortunately, I disagree with your statement. The California No Denomination fractional gold charms were not listed in BG reference book but they are legitimate ones. It is a matter that no one wrote a book about them.

Read what I said. If they don't have a denomination they are considered to be tokens rather than coins.

What is the thought process behind this? Is it that the non-denominated ones are charms that weren't use for commerce?

The Treasury Department started cracking down on these coins in 1882 for violating the Coinage Act of 1864 so the makers of these coins eliminated the denomination to stay within the requirements of the law. These were not only popular as souvenirs and novelties but also for use in the jewelry trade. That's why so many surviving examples are holed or have solder on the rim.

If they weren’t intended for private commerce, they don’t seem to qualify as tokens. Medalettes may be more appropriate.

PerryHall · November 11, 2021 9:32AM

@edwardjulio The PCGS Coin Facts has a lot of good information on this series. There's a page for each BG numbered coin including detailed pics, rarity and pricing information.

jcping · November 11, 2021 10:45AM

@PerryHall said:

Read what I said. If they don't have a denomination they are considered to be tokens rather than coins.

What is the thought process behind this? Is it that the non-denominated ones are charms that weren't use for commerce?

My answer is “YES.” When you see these no-denomination California fractional gold (mostly struck at period 2 time frame), the reverse shows either 1/4 CAL.GOLD, 1/4 F.GOLD, 1/2 CAL.GOLD, 1/2 F.GOLD, 1/4, 1/2, 1/4 GOLD CHARM, 1/4 CHARM, or 1/2 GOLD CHARM. The only one that did not follow these rules is with BG-799Y obverse but reverse used a period 3 die.

Noted that all above do not have dollar, dol etc so that I called them CNDG (California No Denomination Gold). There are about 30-40 varieties of them and many of them are rated R8 to Unique.

edwardjulio · November 11, 2021 11:09AM

PerryHall · November 11, 2021 11:20AM

Most likely the charms or tokens without denominations were struck during period 3. The period 2 coins (1859-1882) had denominations while the period 3 coins (post 1882) with denominations were back dated to before 1882 so they wouldn't get in trouble with the anticounterfeiting laws.

Goldminers · November 11, 2021 11:33AM

IMO, Gold is money, regardless of whether it is in the form of a charm, token, medal, jewelry, medalette, bar, nugget, dust, flakes, full or fractional denominated coin, or not.

California Fractionals

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