Worst Quality after year 1600 Coin Ever Made

REALGATOR · July 3, 2021 4:55AM

My vote goes for the Massachusetts Willow Tree Shilling. The finest graded is PCGS MS62 CAC. If it were a modern coin it has the look of Fair Details - Damage. My "low grade" example follows.

Does anyone know of a worse mint quality coin? Lets see 'em.

Keep in mind, I love these old hammered coins. I was just wondering if you can post coins graded so high (AU-MS) with such a rough look that is post- Renaissance (dated after 1600).

ricko · July 3, 2021 5:01AM

I would sure be proud to own that first one.... Heck... even the second one.... Cheers, RickO

Rexford · July 3, 2021 6:06AM

These are hammered coins, like ancients. Machine-made coinage was only just becoming a thing at the time. There are worse quality hammered coins out there.

Sonorandesertrat · July 3, 2021 6:40AM

These coins were made in primitive conditions, by people having modest skills. This is part of their charm.

Crypto · July 3, 2021 6:43AM

They are no worse than many Cobs of the era

7Jaguars · July 3, 2021 7:39AM

Or Bermudan Hogge money!

Zoins · July 3, 2021 8:54AM

@Rexford said:
These are hammered coins, like ancients. Machine-made coinage was only just becoming a thing at the time. There are worse quality hammered coins out there.

Agree, they are the same as ancients.

Zoins · July 3, 2021 8:55AM

@Sonorandesertrat said:
These coins were made in primitive conditions, by people having modest skills. This is part of their charm.

Just like the hammered pieces from Ron Landis!

Except Ron is super skilled!

Hydrant · July 3, 2021 9:18AM

I understand their appeal and I appreciate them but those privately minted California gold pieces leave quite a bit to be desired in the quality and looks departments.

sellitstore · July 3, 2021 9:19AM

That second one looks like one of the coins recovered from the Feversham and sold by Christies around 1990 or so. Low grade is due to salt water or ground burial but that coin had much more detail when made.

jmlanzaf · July 3, 2021 2:18PM

@Rexford said:
These are hammered coins, like ancients. Machine-made coinage was only just becoming a thing at the time. There are worse quality hammered coins out there.

This!

Look at a lot of medieval coins. Then the Rensissance was no better. It's not until the steam press in the late 18th century that things got more modern.

Spanish colonial cobs are as crude or worse.

Even into the 20th century, look at some of the Mexican revolutionary coinage or Indian princely states.

Frankly, that shilling is more beautiful to me than the finest struck Morgan dollar ever made. I love the primitive coinage. And, as @errorsoncoins might say in a different context, each one is unique.

LanceNewmanOCC · July 3, 2021 2:48PM

@Rexford said:
These are hammered coins, like ancients. Machine-made coinage was only just becoming a thing at the time. There are worse quality hammered coins out there.

.
i know you're itching to post one or more, let me pave the way for you ..............................................................

SmEagle1795 · July 3, 2021 3:11PM

The 1818 1/2 Texas Jola also leaves a lot to be desired in artistic quality and execution: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1818-1-2-rl-texas-jola-sm-planchet/661

Rexford · July 3, 2021 3:19PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@Rexford said:
These are hammered coins, like ancients. Machine-made coinage was only just becoming a thing at the time. There are worse quality hammered coins out there.

Look at a lot of medieval coins. Then the Rensissance was no better. It's not until the steam press in the late 18th century that things got more modern.

Although things did get significantly better around 1550 with the screw and roller presses, but that technology was implemented in greatly varying rates around the world over the next several centuries. Many hammered coins, of course, can be quite beautiful.

@LanceNewmanOCC I don’t have any examples offhand, but the types @jmlanzaf posted above can get pretty terrible

MasonG · July 3, 2021 3:23PM

If you want to step into the 20th century (1913-1917), most Mexican revolutionary coinage won't be setting any records for quality.

REALGATOR · July 3, 2021 4:28PM

Hmmm. No post-1600 coins to show to match the Willow for Grade vs detail quality?

mosjcoin · July 3, 2021 4:41PM

Not a coin but Civil War Token. It is a MS-64 that makes it a Top Pop. Sam

coinbuf · July 3, 2021 4:57PM

It should be expected for much of the early coinage to have issues with either production or design as both were crude. But moving into the more modern era I cannot think of a more poorly made series than the SLQ. Sure the first year has many excellent examples, but over the entire series the number of dish head coins, flat shields with missing rivets, and other striking issues is rather large. Generally speaking for a timeframe with good advanced machinery (for the time) the SLQ as a series should have had better production quality. For a great many dates in this series it is a very difficult task to find a nice fully struck coin that displays a full head and shield details.

Rexford · July 3, 2021 5:04PM

@REALGATOR said:
Hmmm. No post-1600 coins to show to match the Willow for Grade vs detail quality?

There are many post-1600 hammered issues that typically come poorly struck, like Mexican revolutionary issues, cobs, Lion daalders, and other random European types, and many examples of these are struck more crudely than the Willow. Theoretically any hammered issue can be struck worse than this piece, since each individual example is different. Whether one survives in Mint state is just circumstantial, but many do survive as such. I personally have seen examples that are worse and uncirculated.

Off_Cent_er · July 3, 2021 6:23PM

I like the op coins but some ancients are pretty nice even though they were once buried...

Faustina Sestertius minted after 141 AD

They can be pretty hard to find though.

jmlanzaf · July 3, 2021 7:18PM

@Off_Cent_er said:
I like the op coins but some ancients are pretty nice even though they were once buried...

Faustina Sestertius minted after

They can be pretty hard to find though.

There are a LOT of very nice ancients. Especially the Greek Republic. The tetradrachma of Alexander and Philip are gorgeous, high relief coins

CaptHenway · July 3, 2021 7:19PM

Honduran 8 Reales of the 1850’s are particularly gruesome.

jmlanzaf · July 3, 2021 7:22PM

1714 Mexico cob MS 62 holder

jmlanzaf · July 3, 2021 7:33PM

Off_Cent_er · July 3, 2021 7:34PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@Off_Cent_er said:
I like the op coins but some ancients are pretty nice even though they were once buried...

Faustina Sestertius minted after

They can be pretty hard to find though.

There are a LOT of very nice ancients. Especially the Greek Republic. The tetradrachma of Alexander and Philip are gorgeous, high relief coins

You are right. There are some great pieces out there. An Alexander tet is one Im really in need of. Someday I will find one I like.

My Faustina I showed isnt an easy one to find with those kind of details. All examples like it I have seen, are pretty well worn.

jmlanzaf · July 3, 2021 7:37PM

@Off_Cent_er said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Off_Cent_er said:
I like the op coins but some ancients are pretty nice even though they were once buried...

Faustina Sestertius minted after

They can be pretty hard to find though.

There are a LOT of very nice ancients. Especially the Greek Republic. The tetradrachma of Alexander and Philip are gorgeous, high relief coins

You are right. There are some great pieces out there. An Alexander tet is one Im really in need of. Someday I will find one I like.

My Faustina I showed isnt an easy one to find with those kind of details. All examples like it I have seen, are pretty well worn.

Roman empire tended to strike flatter. Your Faustina relief is above average for sure.

Rexford · July 3, 2021 8:05PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@Off_Cent_er said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Off_Cent_er said:
I like the op coins but some ancients are pretty nice even though they were once buried...

Faustina Sestertius minted after

They can be pretty hard to find though.

There are a LOT of very nice ancients. Especially the Greek Republic. The tetradrachma of Alexander and Philip are gorgeous, high relief coins

You are right. There are some great pieces out there. An Alexander tet is one Im really in need of. Someday I will find one I like.

My Faustina I showed isnt an easy one to find with those kind of details. All examples like it I have seen, are pretty well worn.

Roman empire tended to strike flatter. Your Faustina relief is above average for sure.

Here’s my empire :

And my Roman republic:

Off_Cent_er · July 3, 2021 10:03PM

@Rexford said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Off_Cent_er said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Off_Cent_er said:
I like the op coins but some ancients are pretty nice even though they were once buried...

Faustina Sestertius minted after

They can be pretty hard to find though.

There are a LOT of very nice ancients. Especially the Greek Republic. The tetradrachma of Alexander and Philip are gorgeous, high relief coins

You are right. There are some great pieces out there. An Alexander tet is one Im really in need of. Someday I will find one I like.

My Faustina I showed isnt an easy one to find with those kind of details. All examples like it I have seen, are pretty well worn.

Roman empire tended to strike flatter. Your Faustina relief is above average for sure.

Here’s my empire :

And my Roman republic:

That Diocletian is eye candy. Very nice.

REALGATOR · July 4, 2021 5:43AM

Some nice coins but even the Netherlands example is a pretty MS62 compared to the Willow.

BillJones · July 4, 2021 7:08AM

A great many of the coins made by British kings William II (Rufus) (1087-1100, Henry I (1100 – 1135) and Stephen (1135 – 1154) are all pretty bad. The coins made for Empress Matilda, who tried to unseat Stephen, were among the worst.

Matilda coins even have a hard time staying together. I’ve heard of two instances were the coins were held together with museum glue, and the dealers were happy to have them.

Here are some samples.

This William II penny is actually quite nice for what it is. I am sure that it has sold for over $2,000 given the amount a dealer paid me for it. The obverse die is broken, which ruined the portrait, but the wording is still good.

This is a little better than average for a Henry I penny. They were frequently clipped. In the end so many pieces were clipped or "snicked" that Henry ordered them to be clipped at the mint before they were issued.

Here is a Stephen penny that is much better than average.

This Empress Matilda penny is a "WOW!" Heritage sold this piece for over $15,000. I was the under bidder. The winner immediately put it up on "buy it from the owner" for almost $25,000.

And here are some "WOW!" coins for the same kings.

William II profile penny.

Henry I penny. This piece was "snicked" at the mint. It's most obvious at 2k on the reverse.

oldabeintx · July 4, 2021 7:32AM

I wonder what the point of all this is, other than show and tell. European mints were producing beautiful technical and artistic work well before we had the skills or technology. The medal that I use as my icon was minted in 1731 in Geneva. We're all proud of what what our forefathers accomplished with very limited resources, in all fields. I love my colonials for that reason. Happy Independence Day to all.

What I do find remarkable is the way we use a numeric system of grading that works reasonably well grading apples to grade oranges.

REALGATOR · July 4, 2021 7:43AM

My point of this post is to challenge my opinion that the Willow Tree has the most flaws of any post 1600 coin as struck.

BillJones · July 4, 2021 7:51AM

As I recall the Massachusetts Willow Tree coins were the first Boston Mint coins that were struck on "an engine for coining." I know that the Oak and Large planchet Pine Tree coins were struck on a rocker press, which left many of them bent.

I am not sure about the Willow Tree coins, but it's obvious that the dies were able to move as the coins were struck which caused many of them to have blurry or doubled design elements. Unfortunately I have had very little experience with the Willow Tree coins and can’t say for sure why they are the way they are. I have owned the later Massachusetts silver and have been able to examine those coins in detail.

jmlanzaf · July 4, 2021 8:09AM

@REALGATOR said:
My point of this post is to challenge my opinion that the Willow Tree has the most flaws of any post 1600 coin as struck.

There are numerous challenges to it. Look at Bryan Money. They are so poorly made in most cases that they look like cheap fakes, and those are in the 19th century.

A lot of the pre-federal US coins are crudely made. Spanish colonial cobs, as previously mentioned. Mexican revolutionary coinage is quite crude. Indian princely states are quite crude into the 20th century in some cases.

Tibetan coinage of the 20th century is often crudely made.

Yes, your coin is poorly struck. If anyone cared to spend a few hours perusing auction results we could probably find dozens or hundreds like it.

WAYNEAS · July 4, 2021 8:33AM

I am not into ancient coins but am impressed with all the designs shown.
I could not tell a fake from one that is real.
Wayne

oldabeintx · July 4, 2021 9:08AM

Ok, I'll play. I'm looking for a halfway presentable Baby Head Vermont - that gets my vote. I guess it depends in part on what "mint quality" means. Government sanctioned?

REALGATOR · July 4, 2021 10:21AM

@oldabeintx said:
Ok, I'll play. I'm looking for a halfway presentable Baby Head Vermont - that gets my vote. I guess it depends in part on what "mint quality" means. Government sanctioned?

Mint Quality = Details as struck/made.

Rexford · July 4, 2021 10:43AM

It would be foolish to assume the Willow has the most flaws of any post-1600 coin as struck when commenters who are experienced with other types are disagreeing and have provided examples of types that are worse (and there are certainly other types that are just more obscure). For specific examples to be provided in this thread relies more on us commenters having images or examples available than the truth of our statements. Also, many terrible examples of these types are not graded and images won’t be available online.

Here are two random Canadian blacksmith tokens, some of the worst-struck coins ever made. The bottom one is graded MS63.

This is graded MS61. There are Mexican War of Independence coins with cruder strikes than even this, and as opposed to the Canadian tokens they are often blundered with double strikes and terrible planchets, but most just don’t survive in MS.

Here’s a pretty poorly struck 1/2 Lion daalder:

There are definitely cobs that are worse than the Willow, and they do survive in Mint State, but I’m not finding any after a quick search. There are several early 1600s French and Belgian types that can be pretty bad as well.

asheland · July 6, 2021 1:22PM

Very cool thread!

Worst Quality after year 1600 Coin Ever Made

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