The trading card grading market is very hot, some very high end top dollar coins as well. So a company like NGC (or someone like Mr. Hansen) can buy an 1804 silver dollar for example and then issue 100,000 shares of ownership. So an average collector can own a piece of it. Risky maybe, but if they can sell digital imaginary NTF stuff, why not sell a share of something real?
Private equity = ruthless. 3-5 year timeline to take public. Juice growth, slash headcount, and make expensive decisions that often backfire due to young guns thinking they know better about a market for which they have no experience. Usually the scenario with hurting companies to turnaround. Although, in this case, NGC wasn't hurting and Salzburg keeps a stake.
The trading card grading market is very hot, some very high end top dollar coins as well. So a company like NGC (or someone like Mr. Hansen) can buy an 1804 silver dollar for example and then issue 100,000 shares of ownership. So an average collector can own a piece of it. Risky maybe, but if they can sell digital imaginary NTF stuff, why not sell a share of something real?
I don't believe more than a very low percentage of collectors would have an interest in this concept.
The trading card grading market is very hot, some very high end top dollar coins as well. So a company like NGC (or someone like Mr. Hansen) can buy an 1804 silver dollar for example and then issue 100,000 shares of ownership. So an average collector can own a piece of it. Risky maybe, but if they can sell digital imaginary NTF stuff, why not sell a share of something real?
I don't believe more than a very low percentage of collectors would have an interest in this concept.
It will be interesting to see what happens. The overall market for all kinds of assets is changing fast. The majority of collectors simply can't afford a LeBron James rookie card, but they might be able to afford 1% of one, with a nice digital certificate to go with it.
The trading card grading market is very hot, some very high end top dollar coins as well. So a company like NGC (or someone like Mr. Hansen) can buy an 1804 silver dollar for example and then issue 100,000 shares of ownership. So an average collector can own a piece of it. Risky maybe, but if they can sell digital imaginary NTF stuff, why not sell a share of something real?
I don't believe more than a very low percentage of collectors would have an interest in this concept.
It will be interesting to see what happens. The overall market for all kinds of assets is changing fast. The majority of collectors simply can't afford a LeBron James rookie card, but they might be able to afford 1% of one, with a nice digital certificate to go with it.
This is a concept which is mostly influenced or determined by factors entirely outside of collecting, as I wouldn't call fractional ownership "collecting" at all. It's a novelty for a low proportion, maybe a status symbol of a sort to an even smaller minority but overwhelmingly if it expands past actual collectors, just another form of speculation.
I'm somewhat familiar with NFT which I consider absurd. Also familiar with some of the prices for sports cards and other collectibles.
My explanation for it is the unprecedented asset bubble and credit mania. It's a subject outside the scope of the US coin forum but there is nothing remotely normal either with the economy or the financial markets, even before COVID. Contrary to what most seem to believe, I see it destined to collapse, though I have to admit this financial recklessness has lasted far longer than I ever thought possible.
The trading card grading market is very hot, some very high end top dollar coins as well. So a company like NGC (or someone like Mr. Hansen) can buy an 1804 silver dollar for example and then issue 100,000 shares of ownership. So an average collector can own a piece of it. Risky maybe, but if they can sell digital imaginary NTF stuff, why not sell a share of something real?
I don't believe more than a very low percentage of collectors would have an interest in this concept.
Neither the PCGS or NGC purchases have much to do with the third-party grading of coins. That market has fully matured. Third-party grading of collectables is a market space with a great deal of potential for promotion expansion.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
The trading card grading market is very hot, some very high end top dollar coins as well. So a company like NGC (or someone like Mr. Hansen) can buy an 1804 silver dollar for example and then issue 100,000 shares of ownership. So an average collector can own a piece of it. Risky maybe, but if they can sell digital imaginary NTF stuff, why not sell a share of something real?
I don't believe more than a very low percentage of collectors would have an interest in this concept.
It will be interesting to see what happens. The overall market for all kinds of assets is changing fast. The majority of collectors simply can't afford a LeBron James rookie card, but they might be able to afford 1% of one, with a nice digital certificate to go with it.
To me, the idea of owning a tiny percentage of a "rare" object has absolutely no appeal. Perhaps young people think otherwise. The whole idea of NTF strikes me as pure idiocy. Again, maybe young people think otherwise.
The trading card grading market is very hot, some very high end top dollar coins as well. So a company like NGC (or someone like Mr. Hansen) can buy an 1804 silver dollar for example and then issue 100,000 shares of ownership. So an average collector can own a piece of it. Risky maybe, but if they can sell digital imaginary NTF stuff, why not sell a share of something real?
I don't believe more than a very low percentage of collectors would have an interest in this concept.
It will be interesting to see what happens. The overall market for all kinds of assets is changing fast. The majority of collectors simply can't afford a LeBron James rookie card, but they might be able to afford 1% of one, with a nice digital certificate to go with it.
To me, the idea of owning a tiny percentage of a "rare" object has absolutely no appeal. Perhaps young people think otherwise. The whole idea of NTF strikes me as pure idiocy. Again, maybe young people think otherwise.
I also initially thought owning a tiny percentage of a collectable asset would have minimal appeal, but there is money to be made, (or lost), and that is what matters to some. NGC and Collector's Universe are in the business of making money on collectables, coins, cards, baseball bats, etc., and all I am pointing out is the collectable business is changing, like it, or not
This $36,000 baseball card, linked below, was put into an IPO on the collectable site 2 months ago, and 241 investors bought the 3,600 shares of it. These trade daily, and if another "collector" wants to own the card outright, they can make offers. If the majority of the shareholders agree, they sell the card and collect the money. In the example below they sold this for $100,000 and made a 177% profit in 2 months. I have read about similar examples of high end coins that sold at auction, and they sometimes get re-sold for large profits within months as well.
So while I agree with several above posts that most collectors prefer to own or collect things outright, there is a small relatively new market out there for fractional ownership, basically no different than owning stocks in companies.
When people start bragging about making a 177% profit in two months you know that the end of that market can't be too far in the future. Don't be surprised if the sports card boom ends up as a gigantic bust.
@291fifth said:
When people start bragging about making a 177% profit in two months you know that the end of that market can't be too far in the future. Don't be surprised if the sports card boom ends up as a gigantic bust.
@291fifth said:
When people start bragging about making a 177% profit in two months you know that the end of that market can't be too far in the future. Don't be surprised if the sports card boom ends up as a gigantic bust.
As a long time NBA collector with one of the larger collections out there approaching 95,000 different cards) that would be a good thing. Boxes of Prizm were overpriced at $120, now they are $3200.
I refuse to play those games and am sitting out until the stupidity ends.
The stupidity has cost me the hobby that I have dedicated most of my life to over the past 32 years.
So many people here have no clue what private equity actual is and does.
The notion that NGC is simply a debt vehicle for Blackstone, is ridiculous. Money is free so if they happen to lever up it makes sense if the cash flows support it to fuel growth. Their exit strategy is certainly to have a larger, faster growing business serving as a pure play on collectibles which can be IPO’d or sold for 10x ROII. Not, a stripped down zombie company laden in unserviceable debt.
The trading card grading market is very hot, some very high end top dollar coins as well. So a company like NGC (or someone like Mr. Hansen) can buy an 1804 silver dollar for example and then issue 100,000 shares of ownership. So an average collector can own a piece of it. Risky maybe, but if they can sell digital imaginary NTF stuff, why not sell a share of something real?
I don't believe more than a very low percentage of collectors would have an interest in this concept.
Agreed. Collectors want to collect.
I can't separate collecting from physical ownership or possession. Maybe others can. Sometimes I think I'm nuts to collect when most of my collection is in a SDB where I don't even see it often. I still get satisfaction from looking at it occasionally and owning it though.
The trading card grading market is very hot, some very high end top dollar coins as well. So a company like NGC (or someone like Mr. Hansen) can buy an 1804 silver dollar for example and then issue 100,000 shares of ownership. So an average collector can own a piece of it. Risky maybe, but if they can sell digital imaginary NTF stuff, why not sell a share of something real?
I don't believe more than a very low percentage of collectors would have an interest in this concept.
It will be interesting to see what happens. The overall market for all kinds of assets is changing fast. The majority of collectors simply can't afford a LeBron James rookie card, but they might be able to afford 1% of one, with a nice digital certificate to go with it.
To me, the idea of owning a tiny percentage of a "rare" object has absolutely no appeal. Perhaps young people think otherwise. The whole idea of NTF strikes me as pure idiocy. Again, maybe young people think otherwise.
I also initially thought owning a tiny percentage of a collectable asset would have minimal appeal, but there is money to be made, (or lost), and that is what matters to some. NGC and Collector's Universe are in the business of making money on collectables, coins, cards, baseball bats, etc., and all I am pointing out is the collectable business is changing, like it, or not
This $36,000 baseball card, linked below, was put into an IPO on the collectable site 2 months ago, and 241 investors bought the 3,600 shares of it. These trade daily, and if another "collector" wants to own the card outright, they can make offers. If the majority of the shareholders agree, they sell the card and collect the money. In the example below they sold this for $100,000 and made a 177% profit in 2 months. I have read about similar examples of high end coins that sold at auction, and they sometimes get re-sold for large profits within months as well.
So while I agree with several above posts that most collectors prefer to own or collect things outright, there is a small relatively new market out there for fractional ownership, basically no different than owning stocks in companies.
Small, maybe depending upon the definition of small. On the NGC forum, there is a thread related to Mark Salzburg's article. I and one other contributor (who works in private wealth management with the very affluent) took the opposite position.
At the time the thread was active, anyone could buy CVX (Chevron) with a 7.5% yield while any security instrument of this type (regardless of the format) will either have a zero or (noticeable) negative yield, depending upon the structure. Now CVX yields about 5% having risen somewhat less than 50%.
So as a novelty or a substitute for small scale penny stock trading, maybe it has potential. Anything more than that, longer term I'll take the "under".
Pump those submissions fees boys! That part I don't like even if it is only a percentage of the efinancial picture to them as it affects me - the rise in fees has not stopped but definitely slowed my submissions. Otherwise I couldn't give a rat's behind if they are sold....
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Hmm… Many large corporate investors will milk out every red cent they can get from a company, deplete its resources/run it to the ground, and then file bankruptcy. I hope that’s not what we’re seeing with the big 2 as it would void all existing guarantees and cause instability in the rare coin market.
@cameonut2011 said:
Hmm… Many large corporate investors will milk out every red cent they can get from a company, deplete its resources/run it to the ground, and then file bankruptcy. I hope that’s not what we’re seeing with the big 2 as it would void all existing guarantees and cause instability in the rare coin market.
Again, stripping out expenses is not the reason why these companies are being acquired. To generate a 20% rate of return for a 5yr holding period, the value of the company has to grow 2.5x. This would be the low end of what a PE firm would tolerate in this instance. A good return of 5x would require ~40% annual growth. They aren’t going to generate that by cutting expenses, the business has grow!
@cameonut2011 said:
Hmm… Many large corporate investors will milk out every red cent they can get from a company, deplete its resources/run it to the ground, and then file bankruptcy. I hope that’s not what we’re seeing with the big 2 as it would void all existing guarantees and cause instability in the rare coin market.
Again, stripping out expenses is not the reason why these companies are being acquired. To generate a 20% rate of return for a 5yr holding period, the value of the company has to grow 2.5x. This would be the low end of what a PE firm would tolerate in this instance. A good return of 5x would require ~40% annual growth. They aren’t going to generate that by cutting expenses, the business has grow!
I met with some of the management from Vista Partners once. The impression I have is the same one you described. They aren't or at least do not seem to be an asset stripper.
On the other hand, some of my colleagues worked with a firm previously owned by KKR. I did get an impression they have a tendency to leverage up a firm and cut expenses as part of their strategy. They certainly loaded that firm up with a boatload of debt.
@cameonut2011 said:
Hmm… Many large corporate investors will milk out every red cent they can get from a company, deplete its resources/run it to the ground, and then file bankruptcy. I hope that’s not what we’re seeing with the big 2 as it would void all existing guarantees and cause instability in the rare coin market.
Again, stripping out expenses is not the reason why these companies are being acquired. To generate a 20% rate of return for a 5yr holding period, the value of the company has to grow 2.5x. This would be the low end of what a PE firm would tolerate in this instance. A good return of 5x would require ~40% annual growth. They aren’t going to generate that by cutting expenses, the business has grow!
That's going to be pretty tough to pull on the coin end.
As thematic investors, we look for exceptional entrepreneurial teams succeeding in growing markets, and CCG is a great example. We have been closely following the rise of the global physical and digital collectibles industry for several years and we were drawn to CCG because of their leadership role in the categories that they serve, and Blackstone’s ability to grow the platform through both organic and inorganic initiatives. We look forward to working together to help the company continue and even accelerate its impressive growth trajectory.
When someone in the coin industry sells their company for half a billion bucks, they deserve to have their name spelled right. Kudos. And congrats, too, to those rumored owners of rumored non-voting stock whose non-votes were heard clearly too. I hope that's so cryptic that only @MrEureka can non-verify it, but a few later posters on this thread have shown the financial dexterity consistent with understanding the subtext. Wheels within wheels.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Comments
This is another concept that already exists.
https://collectable.com/
The trading card grading market is very hot, some very high end top dollar coins as well. So a company like NGC (or someone like Mr. Hansen) can buy an 1804 silver dollar for example and then issue 100,000 shares of ownership. So an average collector can own a piece of it. Risky maybe, but if they can sell digital imaginary NTF stuff, why not sell a share of something real?
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
https://tampabay.com/news/business/2021/07/02/tampa-bay-coin-and-card-grading-company-sells-in-nine-figure-deal/ Regurgitation about the sale in the Tampa Bay Times.
Disagree that it’s good for anyone besides Wall St.
When Wall St. gets involved, the government takes notice. Personally, I don’t want the government involved in numismatics.
Private equity = ruthless. 3-5 year timeline to take public. Juice growth, slash headcount, and make expensive decisions that often backfire due to young guns thinking they know better about a market for which they have no experience. Usually the scenario with hurting companies to turnaround. Although, in this case, NGC wasn't hurting and Salzburg keeps a stake.
I don't believe more than a very low percentage of collectors would have an interest in this concept.
It will be interesting to see what happens. The overall market for all kinds of assets is changing fast. The majority of collectors simply can't afford a LeBron James rookie card, but they might be able to afford 1% of one, with a nice digital certificate to go with it.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Three way that a person can invest in the Blackstone Tactical Opportunities Fund (its an ETF). Class A, Class C, and Institutional.
This is a concept which is mostly influenced or determined by factors entirely outside of collecting, as I wouldn't call fractional ownership "collecting" at all. It's a novelty for a low proportion, maybe a status symbol of a sort to an even smaller minority but overwhelmingly if it expands past actual collectors, just another form of speculation.
I'm somewhat familiar with NFT which I consider absurd. Also familiar with some of the prices for sports cards and other collectibles.
My explanation for it is the unprecedented asset bubble and credit mania. It's a subject outside the scope of the US coin forum but there is nothing remotely normal either with the economy or the financial markets, even before COVID. Contrary to what most seem to believe, I see it destined to collapse, though I have to admit this financial recklessness has lasted far longer than I ever thought possible.
too late. Gov already involved in numismatics. They tax your capital gains on collectibles at a higher rate.
The things I don’t always agree with are always worth considering.
The US Mint is involved in numismatics. They were able to sell coins that won't even exist for 4 months.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
I use B L A C K S T O N E as my secret price code (on the back of 2X2s) as each letter is different and can be assigned numbers from 0 through 9.
For example, a coin cost me $57.00 the code is KT.
peacockcoins
Agreed. Collectors want to collect.
Neither the PCGS or NGC purchases have much to do with the third-party grading of coins. That market has fully matured. Third-party grading of collectables is a market space with a great deal of potential for promotion expansion.
To me, the idea of owning a tiny percentage of a "rare" object has absolutely no appeal. Perhaps young people think otherwise. The whole idea of NTF strikes me as pure idiocy. Again, maybe young people think otherwise.
I also initially thought owning a tiny percentage of a collectable asset would have minimal appeal, but there is money to be made, (or lost), and that is what matters to some. NGC and Collector's Universe are in the business of making money on collectables, coins, cards, baseball bats, etc., and all I am pointing out is the collectable business is changing, like it, or not
This $36,000 baseball card, linked below, was put into an IPO on the collectable site 2 months ago, and 241 investors bought the 3,600 shares of it. These trade daily, and if another "collector" wants to own the card outright, they can make offers. If the majority of the shareholders agree, they sell the card and collect the money. In the example below they sold this for $100,000 and made a 177% profit in 2 months. I have read about similar examples of high end coins that sold at auction, and they sometimes get re-sold for large profits within months as well.
So while I agree with several above posts that most collectors prefer to own or collect things outright, there is a small relatively new market out there for fractional ownership, basically no different than owning stocks in companies.
This is an example:
https://app.collectable.com/assets/sandy-koufax-1955-topps-123-rookie-card-27
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
I wonder if they just bought NGC's ability/potential to acquire debt. They'll borrow to the hilt and use the money elsewhere.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Hell yeah, buy the cacs not the coinz! THKS!!!
When people start bragging about making a 177% profit in two months you know that the end of that market can't be too far in the future. Don't be surprised if the sports card boom ends up as a gigantic bust.
Sic transit gloria mundi
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
Historically significant sports memorabilia will always be coveted.
CLCT was a public company for decades, fear of Wall Street is nonsense.
Plenty of growth ahead for collectibles, otherwise high profile investors would not give a hoot.
As a long time NBA collector with one of the larger collections out there approaching 95,000 different cards) that would be a good thing. Boxes of Prizm were overpriced at $120, now they are $3200.
I refuse to play those games and am sitting out until the stupidity ends.
The stupidity has cost me the hobby that I have dedicated most of my life to over the past 32 years.
So many people here have no clue what private equity actual is and does.
The notion that NGC is simply a debt vehicle for Blackstone, is ridiculous. Money is free so if they happen to lever up it makes sense if the cash flows support it to fuel growth. Their exit strategy is certainly to have a larger, faster growing business serving as a pure play on collectibles which can be IPO’d or sold for 10x ROII. Not, a stripped down zombie company laden in unserviceable debt.
Latin American Collection
I can't separate collecting from physical ownership or possession. Maybe others can. Sometimes I think I'm nuts to collect when most of my collection is in a SDB where I don't even see it often. I still get satisfaction from looking at it occasionally and owning it though.
Small, maybe depending upon the definition of small. On the NGC forum, there is a thread related to Mark Salzburg's article. I and one other contributor (who works in private wealth management with the very affluent) took the opposite position.
At the time the thread was active, anyone could buy CVX (Chevron) with a 7.5% yield while any security instrument of this type (regardless of the format) will either have a zero or (noticeable) negative yield, depending upon the structure. Now CVX yields about 5% having risen somewhat less than 50%.
So as a novelty or a substitute for small scale penny stock trading, maybe it has potential. Anything more than that, longer term I'll take the "under".
That’ll be fun to watch. Maybe some new and interesting changes on the horizon.
Pump those submissions fees boys! That part I don't like even if it is only a percentage of the efinancial picture to them as it affects me - the rise in fees has not stopped but definitely slowed my submissions. Otherwise I couldn't give a rat's behind if they are sold....
Well, just Love coins, period.
Hmm… Many large corporate investors will milk out every red cent they can get from a company, deplete its resources/run it to the ground, and then file bankruptcy. I hope that’s not what we’re seeing with the big 2 as it would void all existing guarantees and cause instability in the rare coin market.
Again, stripping out expenses is not the reason why these companies are being acquired. To generate a 20% rate of return for a 5yr holding period, the value of the company has to grow 2.5x. This would be the low end of what a PE firm would tolerate in this instance. A good return of 5x would require ~40% annual growth. They aren’t going to generate that by cutting expenses, the business has grow!
Latin American Collection
I met with some of the management from Vista Partners once. The impression I have is the same one you described. They aren't or at least do not seem to be an asset stripper.
On the other hand, some of my colleagues worked with a firm previously owned by KKR. I did get an impression they have a tendency to leverage up a firm and cut expenses as part of their strategy. They certainly loaded that firm up with a boatload of debt.
That's going to be pretty tough to pull on the coin end.
https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/blackstone-tactical-opportunities-to-acquire-ngc-and-certified-collectibles-group/
When someone in the coin industry sells their company for half a billion bucks, they deserve to have their name spelled right. Kudos. And congrats, too, to those rumored owners of rumored non-voting stock whose non-votes were heard clearly too. I hope that's so cryptic that only @MrEureka can non-verify it, but a few later posters on this thread have shown the financial dexterity consistent with understanding the subtext. Wheels within wheels.
Did he tell you why?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
The particular fund it was in which did well in the past was not performing as well.