Is PR58 better than PR60?

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FredF
FredF Posts: 527 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Was browsing auction sites and saw a 19th century gold coin in PR58. Lots of folks have an opinion that, all else being equal, an AU58 is going to have better eye appeal than a MS60 of the same date/denomination. While I understand that all else is never equal, and all coins have to be judged individually, on the balance is a PR58 going to look nicer than a PR60? I'm expecting a PR60 to have problems.

Disclaimer - have never seen either a PR58 or PR60 19th century gold coin in person, so I'm only judging from photos.

Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins

Comments

  • MsMorrisine
    MsMorrisine Posts: 40,036 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    is the 58 a coin that would be a 60 with wear or a 67 with wear?

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,131 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Sometimes yes and other times, no. The question really needs to be answered on an individual basis. And the same goes for an AU58 vs. MS60, MS61 or even MS62 business strike, too.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • OldIndianNutKase
    OldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2021 8:05PM
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    A PR coin with circulation wear cannot be graded any higher than PR58. There should be no such coin that is PR 67 with a little bit of wear. PR coins are totally pristine examples that have no wear.......even if they have been circulated (once), which might have happened during the Great Depression when some were spent (once).

    A PR58 may very well have better eye appeal, but it still is a 58.

    OINK

  • BStrauss3
    BStrauss3 Posts: 3,905 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Generally, I've found that to be true. I have a PF58 3cs that is really an 64 maybe 65 but with a touch of wear on the high points.

    And a few MS60s that, well, if they barked I wouldn't be surprised...

    -----Burton
    ANA 50+ year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
    Author: 3rd Edition of the SampleSlabs book, https://sampleslabs.info/
  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    The 58 is always better than the 60 is also a myth.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • thefinn
    thefinn Posts: 2,657 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    For proofs it is a completely different thing. I would rather have a PR60 than a PR58 because the 58 would be circulated. The 60 would be mishandled and/or cleaned.

    thefinn
  • MrEureka
    MrEureka Posts: 24,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @FredF said:
    Was browsing auction sites and saw a 19th century gold coin in PR58. Lots of folks have an opinion that, all else being equal, an AU58 is going to have better eye appeal than a MS60 of the same date/denomination. While I understand that all else is never equal, and all coins have to be judged individually, on the balance is a PR58 going to look nicer than a PR60? I'm expecting a PR60 to have problems.

    With proofs, unlike business strikes, it's probably fair to say that 58's and 60's are equally likely to have problems.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I checked several coin value price guides and they all agree that PR60 coins are better than PR58 coins. ;)

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • airplanenut
    airplanenut Posts: 22,763 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    A PR coin with circulation wear cannot be graded any higher than PR58. There should be no such coin that is PR 67 with a little bit of wear. PR coins are totally pristine examples that have no wear.......even if they have been circulated (once), which might have happened during the Great Depression when some were spent (once).

    A PR58 may very well have better eye appeal, but it still is a 58.

    OINK

    I don’t think anyone is arguing a 67 can have wear. The argument is that a 67 with light wear is immediately a 58, and it may be a very appealing 58 because it is a very clean coin with a light rub. A 60 may not have wear, but it likely has heavy hairlining or other distracting flaws. Of course, a 60 with a light rub may also be a 58. Point being a 58 can have much more appeal than a 60 as long as you’re willing to accept the coin having light wear instead of (possibly) a slew of other issues that knock the grade down to the low 60s.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • tradedollarnut
    tradedollarnut Posts: 20,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    There’s no such thing as a PR67 with light wear. Circulation will destroy the fields. High point rub with pristine fields is not circulation and will not result in a grade of 58.

    Early Dollar Set
  • skier07
    skier07 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2021 11:43AM
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    @PerryHall said:
    I checked several coin value price guides and they all agree that PR60 coins are better than PR58 coins. ;)

    The same then can be said for MS60 verse AU58. I think we’re both being sarcastic.

  • Smudge
    Smudge Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Depends.

  • AuldFartte
    AuldFartte Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭✭
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    In my limited experience, I have purchased 58s rather than 60s or 61s because on the 58s I own, the fields are smooth and clear vs. the available 60s or 61s where the fields had many marks and dings. Just my own experience folks.

    image

    My OmniCoin Collection
    My BankNoteBank Collection
    Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,131 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @AuldFartte said:
    In my limited experience, I have purchased 58s rather than 60s or 61s because on the 58s I own, the fields are smooth and clear vs. the available 60s or 61s where the fields had many marks and dings. Just my own experience folks.

    Are you talking about business strikes, Proofs or both?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It has been my experience, that a preference for the lower grade (58 vs 60) is often in the eye of the collector. Some slight wear vs. notable defects....Cheers, RickO

  • AuldFartte
    AuldFartte Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2021 8:45AM
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    @MFeld said:

    @AuldFartte said:
    In my limited experience, I have purchased 58s rather than 60s or 61s because on the 58s I own, the fields are smooth and clear vs. the available 60s or 61s where the fields had many marks and dings. Just my own experience folks.

    Are you talking about business strikes, Proofs or both?

    Both Mr. Feld. Few proofs, mostly business strikes. And US, England, and Scotland.

    image

    My OmniCoin Collection
    My BankNoteBank Collection
    Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,131 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @AuldFartte said:

    @MFeld said:

    @AuldFartte said:
    In my limited experience, I have purchased 58s rather than 60s or 61s because on the 58s I own, the fields are smooth and clear vs. the available 60s or 61s where the fields had many marks and dings. Just my own experience folks.

    Are you talking about business strikes, Proofs or both?

    Both Mr. Feld. Few proofs, mostly business strikes. And US, England, and Scotland.

    Thank you. I would expect that to be the case with business strikes more often than with Proofs. But fortunately, both methods of manufacture can offer pleasing options if you look long enough.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Crypto
    Crypto Posts: 4,098 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I say no- Most 58s I have ever seen of of classic type have severely diminished mirrors where 60s have hairlines or dipped to death but some mirrors. I don’t like proofs with limited mirrors and the market agrees often

    11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set

  • thefinn
    thefinn Posts: 2,657 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @AuldFartte said:
    In my limited experience, I have purchased 58s rather than 60s or 61s because on the 58s I own, the fields are smooth and clear vs. the available 60s or 61s where the fields had many marks and dings. Just my own experience folks.

    We’re talking proofs, not business strikes.

    thefinn
  • amwldcoin
    amwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2021 2:28PM
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    Here's a Proof 58 I cracked out of an NGC AU details cleaned holder.


  • Crypto
    Crypto Posts: 4,098 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @amwldcoin said:
    Here's a Proof 58 I cracked out of an NGC AU details holder.


    Cool coin but I am not sure it is a proof. That appears to have the die chip in banner rev which is know to come PL but not in proof as a 1/2 hub combo. I would need a glass in hand to know for sure

    11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set

  • BillJones
    BillJones Posts: 35,933 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2021 2:00PM
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    It looks like most of the Proof surface is gone on that 1875 Trade Dollar, especially on the reverse fields, which to look have been wiped, mostly up and down. I think that you are getting a lot of design detail from that coin, but not much from the Proof mirrors. It would probably be a pass for me.

    So far as the first question goes, a PR-58 might be more desirable than a PR-60, but you need to look at it from a case by case basis.

    I know that it is a different type, but this Gobrecht Dollar was graded PR-60. If I had a Grobrect Dollar in PR-58 that looked like the Trade Dollar shown above, I'd take the PR-60.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • amwldcoin
    amwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Take that up with our hosts as I sold it over 5 years ago on ebay! :# If you could see the coin in hand I think you would call it a proof. Typical hairlines a mishandled proof gets. I meant to say details cleaned from NGC and will edit.

    @Crypto said:

    @amwldcoin said:
    Here's a Proof 58 I cracked out of an NGC AU details holder.


    Cool coin but I am not sure it is a proof. That appears to have the die chip in banner rev which is know to come PL but not in proof as a 1/2 hub combo. I would need a glass in hand to know for sure

  • Baley
    Baley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Does this proof 1844 half grade 58, 60, or other? Cam?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • Crypto
    Crypto Posts: 4,098 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2021 6:36PM
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    @Baley said:

    Does this proof 1844 half grade 58, 60, or other? Cam?

    61 no cam due to lack of mirrors but very nice

    11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set

  • tradedollarnut
    tradedollarnut Posts: 20,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Baley said:

    Does this proof 1844 half grade 58, 60, or other? Cam?

    Yes and yes

    Early Dollar Set
  • sellitstore
    sellitstore Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Sometimes.

    Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.

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