Spiel, Marke Tokens, Kettle Tokens. Gaming Tokens and Gold Rush Tokens information inside

coinsarefun · September 23, 2019 9:26AM

@tokenpro said:

The five or six commonly encountered varieties are often available in high grade despite their optimistic R-5 & R-6 rarity ratings by Mssrs. Fuld The Younger & Rulau.

That's strange as every time I have seen these or any of the vanities they are always worn down
or almost au at best. I must not be looking hard enough

coinsarefun · September 23, 2019 9:28AM

Vey cool @WillieBoyd2 I wonder if they were the brass or aluminum ones.
Perhaps brass to represent gold coins

coinsarefun · September 24, 2019 4:16AM

I thought to include a group image so you can get a feel for what the sizes are.
The larger tokens are $10 eagle size.
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coinsarefun · October 26, 2019 1:46PM

Received another in the mail today:
GENERAL WASHINGTON // IN UNITATE FORTITUDO / (Eagle) / Spiel Munze
From the Benjamin Fauver collection.
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.Pretty nice and very close to pl. Gotta love the totaly cracked die.
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coinsarefun · March 1, 2020 2:00PM

It's been several month's since I updated this thread. Sometimes I think I'm the only one that looks at it
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Anyways, this half eagle graded MS64+ (c.1860) Token GW-409 Brass, Washington Spiel-Marke Gaming
Trueview below.
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I also purchased this quarter eagle because I have not seen one this small and cared for this well.
Amazing that this small token survived so well and was made for gambling. Whereas its not surprising
that some cwt's are in superb condition.
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Another newer pickup. 1850’s Lauer Nuremberg Spiel Marke. Copy of a gold 1692 Lamb 1/2 Ducat.
She may be small at only 17.5mm, but she’s mighty looking being this old and in such great state of preservation!
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This last one is an odd duck. My best guesstimate is this is also a gaming token. Maybe 1850'-60's
Also looks nickel, not white metal or aluminum.
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coinsarefun · March 1, 2020 2:04PM

@CaptHenway said:
I am not familiar with that 1847 piece. Why 1847? Sure we had just stolen California and some other states from Mexico in the Mexican War of 1846, but this has a gold rush look to it. Seems to go with the 1852 $20 token. Did the manufacturer just reuse a slightly outdated token obverse die?

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Looking through the thread I noticed I never responded to you. Well, better late than never but must say
I have no idea as to the dates. What you propose sounds reasonable but maybe @tokenpro can give us
more insight.

Zoins · March 2, 2020 2:20AM

@coinsarefun said:
Another newer pickup. 1850’s Lauer Nuremberg Spiel Marke. Copy of a gold 1692 Lamb 1/2 Ducat.
She may be small at only 17.5mm, but she’s mighty looking being this old and in such great state of preservation!

This last one is an odd duck. My best guesstimate is this is also a gaming token. Maybe 1850'-60's
Also looks nickel, not white metal or aluminum.

I haven't seen these 2 before and am a big fan of them. Congrats and thanks for sharing!

tokenpro · March 2, 2020 11:36AM

@CaptHenway said:
I am not familiar with that 1847 piece. Why 1847? Sure we had just stolen California and some other states from Mexico in the Mexican War of 1846, but this has a gold rush look to it. Seems to go with the 1852 $20 token. Did the manufacturer just reuse a slightly outdated token obverse die?

I believe that you are correct on the 1847 die -- IIRC it was used previously on a storecard but I can't remember the merchant. I'll skim Adams, Miller & Wright when I get a chance. It's a well crafted die.

tokenpro · March 2, 2020 11:39AM

I don't believe that the dragon // umbrella & kimono piece dates back that far -- the die style to me appears to be circa 1920's give or take. It is not a rare token.

CaptHenway · March 2, 2020 1:49PM

@tokenpro said:

@CaptHenway said:
I am not familiar with that 1847 piece. Why 1847? Sure we had just stolen California and some other states from Mexico in the Mexican War of 1846, but this has a gold rush look to it. Seems to go with the 1852 $20 token. Did the manufacturer just reuse a slightly outdated token obverse die?

I believe that you are correct on the 1847 die -- IIRC it was used previously on a storecard but I can't remember the merchant. I'll skim Adams, Miller & Wright when I get a chance. It's a well crafted die.

Too bad the flag only has 24 stars, if I am seeing it correctly. California was the 31st state, so the engraver was not trying to be accurate.

CaptHenway · March 2, 2020 1:53PM

I wonder if the dragon/kimono tokens might be something similar to a pinball machine token. The style of the denticles makes me think it is post-WW2.

Maybe some sort of gaming machine used on a U.S. military base in the Far East after the war? Just a WAG.

coinsarefun · March 27, 2020 7:16PM

Well, here it is the end of the month and I was able to pick up 3 more Spiel Compositions.
I took the images all displayed out so you can get a feel for the size of them. Oddly enough the 15mm has the
nicest reverse eagle design.....in my opinion. I also love the late die state in all of them as well.
Hope you all like them. @tokenpro If you have time to add anything I would love to hear it.
I'm hoping this thread may start the fire under someone to start collecting these little goodies.
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tokenpro · March 27, 2020 9:01PM

Believe me, there are more than a couple of game counter collectors out there. Benj Fauver's collection which has been bringing very strong prices on eBay is the once in a generation or so chance at pieces you won't see again for years to come. I recently listed 40 or 50 mostly everyday pieces in circulated grades and nearly everything sold; there are collectors buying at all price levels.

As I've mentioned before, the main thing holding back this collecting area is the lack of an updated accessible catalog. Fauver's detailed catalogs by denomination were never well distributed and didn't gain traction. The Fuld-Rulau catalog published by TAMS as a supplement is somewhat difficult to find and really needs updating with many more images to illustrate the differences vaguely explained in the text. It is missing many pieces illustrated in the Fauver works. A new catalog would be a great project for the detail oriented para-numismatist.

CaptHenway · March 27, 2020 9:18PM

That small one really is quite nice!

coinsarefun · June 20, 2020 10:24AM

I did manage to pick up a few new ones and will post when I get them back from grading.
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I picked up a new one that is the same grade AU53 but is unlisted In gold gilt.
I’m out of town so I can’t check any of my references as to how rare these are.
Stacks states very rare but I think it’s rare but not super rare. I also think this is
An easy AU58 along with typical weak strike centers.
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Zoins · June 20, 2020 10:36AM

@tokenpro said:
As I've mentioned before, the main thing holding back this collecting area is the lack of an updated accessible catalog. Fauver's detailed catalogs by denomination were never well distributed and didn't gain traction. The Fuld-Rulau catalog published by TAMS as a supplement is somewhat difficult to find and really needs updating with many more images to illustrate the differences vaguely explained in the text. It is missing many pieces illustrated in the Fauver works. A new catalog would be a great project for the detail oriented para-numismatist. A new catalog would be a great project for the detail oriented para-numismatist.

And set one up for some numismatist awards!

Zoins · June 20, 2020 10:40AM

@coinsarefun Beautiful K-2 California Token! It looks very clean. Congrats on extending your collection more

I've picked up a few recently but not any of the more rare pieces.

coinsarefun · October 17, 2020 4:36PM

So, has anyone picked up one lately? It appears we have hit a dry spell on quality ones.
And, if they are they have gone for a price way over my comfort zone.

Zoins · October 18, 2020 10:29AM

@coinsarefun said:
So, has anyone picked up one lately? It appears we have hit a dry spell on quality ones.
And, if they are they have gone for a price way over my comfort zone.

I haven't seen any nice ones in a while. I used to look for AU ones but when I saw your gem ones and then ones from William Sphon Baker, I upleveled my expectations. I have a few, the last being a set I bought from @nencoin months ago. That set wasn't gem but was still nice unc.

coinsarefun · October 18, 2020 10:36AM

@Zoins said:

@coinsarefun said:
So, has anyone picked up one lately? It appears we have hit a dry spell on quality ones.
And, if they are they have gone for a price way over my comfort zone.

I haven't seen any nice ones in a while. I used to look for AU ones but when I saw your gem ones and then ones from William Sphon Baker, I upleveled my expectations. I have a few, the last being a set I bought from @nencoin months ago. That set wasn't gem but was still nice unc.

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Well, maybe it will go quite for several years like the hard times tokens did after all the ford auctions.
But, coming up at Heritage is coming a boatload of them. Should be an interesting watch!

Zoins · October 18, 2020 10:41AM

@coinsarefun said:

@Zoins said:

@coinsarefun said:
So, has anyone picked up one lately? It appears we have hit a dry spell on quality ones.
And, if they are they have gone for a price way over my comfort zone.

I haven't seen any nice ones in a while. I used to look for AU ones but when I saw your gem ones and then ones from William Sphon Baker, I upleveled my expectations. I have a few, the last being a set I bought from @nencoin months ago. That set wasn't gem but was still nice unc.

Well, maybe it will go quite for several years like the hard times tokens did after all the ford auctions.
But, coming up at Heritage is coming a boatload of them. Should be an interesting watch!

I did notice someone is selling a very significant hard times and merchant token collection on Heritage. Looks like a number of the pieces are from Donald G. Partrick. It would be great to have a recent provenance to associate these to a collection.

Aegis3 · October 18, 2020 8:46PM

@Zoins said:

@coinsarefun said:

@Zoins said:

@coinsarefun said:
So, has anyone picked up one lately? It appears we have hit a dry spell on quality ones.
And, if they are they have gone for a price way over my comfort zone.

I haven't seen any nice ones in a while. I used to look for AU ones but when I saw your gem ones and then ones from William Sphon Baker, I upleveled my expectations. I have a few, the last being a set I bought from @nencoin months ago. That set wasn't gem but was still nice unc.

Well, maybe it will go quite for several years like the hard times tokens did after all the ford auctions.
But, coming up at Heritage is coming a boatload of them. Should be an interesting watch!

I did notice someone is selling a very significant hard times and merchant token collection on Heritage. Looks like a number of the pieces are from Donald G. Partrick. It would be great to have a recent provenance to associate these to a collection.

Well, that is the collection being sold. And what a collection! Multiple silver Bushnells, Lows 2, 50, 54A, 82 (the token, not just the cut & counterstamped pieces), 152(!!!!), 161, and much more. And the store cards, well known and obscure.

Zoins · October 18, 2020 8:53PM

@Aegis3 said:

@Zoins said:

@coinsarefun said:

@Zoins said:

@coinsarefun said:
So, has anyone picked up one lately? It appears we have hit a dry spell on quality ones.
And, if they are they have gone for a price way over my comfort zone.

I haven't seen any nice ones in a while. I used to look for AU ones but when I saw your gem ones and then ones from William Sphon Baker, I upleveled my expectations. I have a few, the last being a set I bought from @nencoin months ago. That set wasn't gem but was still nice unc.

Well, maybe it will go quite for several years like the hard times tokens did after all the ford auctions.
But, coming up at Heritage is coming a boatload of them. Should be an interesting watch!

I did notice someone is selling a very significant hard times and merchant token collection on Heritage. Looks like a number of the pieces are from Donald G. Partrick. It would be great to have a recent provenance to associate these to a collection.

Well, that is the collection being sold. And what a collection! Multiple silver Bushnells, Lows 2, 50, 54A, 82 (the token, not just the cut & counterstamped pieces), 152(!!!!), 161, and much more. And the store cards, well known and obscure.

Ah, I see it now. It wasn't very clear from the individual lot descriptions but is ini the navigation breadcrumbs. I agree it's an amazing collection. Jaw dropping I'd say. I'm curious to see what the descriptions end up saying. The last token sale I participated in, the Tim Gabriele Collection, didn't seem to have that much ini the way of detailed descriptions.

I'd love there to be a video interview with Don, just like there is with Bob Simpson.

https://coins.ha.com/c/auction-home.zx?saleNo=63161

coinsarefun · January 16, 2021 10:16AM

I was looking through the TAMS website today trying to see if I can pay my dues online. I ran upon an article written titled
"Fred's essay on Gaming Counters".
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The link is to a pdf file.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/auctionmobility-wordpress-node-4/wp-content/uploads/holabird/2020/08/13175729/Gaming-Counters-Essay.pdf

coinsarefun · January 16, 2021 10:20AM

I will add from TAMS site another article. "Paul Williams essay on so-called dimes So called dimes"
He talks about Fauvers collection
Link:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/auctionmobility-wordpress-node-4/wp-content/uploads/holabird/2020/08/19195705/PW-DCD-article.pdf

Zoins · January 16, 2021 11:49AM

George Washington - GW-413 - PCGS MS66 - Ex.E. Pluribus Unum

Here's my most recent pick up:

Zoins · January 16, 2021 1:22PM

@coinsarefun said:
I was looking through the TAMS website today trying to see if I can pay my dues online. I ran upon an article written titled
"Fred's essay on Gaming Counters".
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The link is to a pdf file.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/auctionmobility-wordpress-node-4/wp-content/uploads/holabird/2020/08/13175729/Gaming-Counters-Essay.pdf

Nice article by Fred N. Holabird. At first I thought it might be our forum Fred

Zoins · January 16, 2021 1:34PM

@coinsarefun said:
I will add from TAMS site another article. "Paul Williams essay on so-called dimes So called dimes"
He talks about Fauvers collection
Link:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/auctionmobility-wordpress-node-4/wp-content/uploads/holabird/2020/08/19195705/PW-DCD-article.pdf

Nice article on Benjamin Fauver's So-Called Dimes.

Here's two I need to be on the lookout for now:

I have these two similar pieces:

1879 Pennsylvania State Fair Tokens Struck in Centennial Building - Brass & Silver

At first I thought these were done by George Bache Soley of Philadelphia but perhaps they are from James Murdock Jr. of Cincinnati? I'm still a bit partial to Soley for these because all of these are done for Philadelphia while I've seen Murdock's other pieces done for Ohio.

The brass one is ex-Tim Gabriele. The silver one has no prior known provenance.

Paul Williams wrote:

Enough with the rules. The medals in the Fauver Collection are mostly 18 mm: the same size as a dime. Each are commemorating an exposition or commemorative event.

Most of these pieces are rare and die sinkers are hard to identify. James Murdock Jr. of Cincinnati sold his medalets at various fairs throughout many states surrounding Ohio. In the 1890s he used a stock die with the entire Lord’s Prayer on the reverse. Several examples are in the Fauver Collection. The 1876 Centennial in Philadelphia produced a medal with the Prayer on the reverse. Henry Kettle of Birmingham England also produced Lord’s Prayer medals. In America the Lord “Who Art In Heaven” and in Britain the Lord “Which Art In Heaven.” Wiley W. Osborne bought Murdock’s business so it became the Osborne Coinage Company, a still operating private mint.

coinsarefun · March 13, 2021 1:57PM

Never mind.....getting old and saw I posted it already.....lol

coinsarefun · April 30, 2021 10:15AM

I wanted to update to include some recent pick ups. Just one or two today but have more and will post soon to keepnthis updated. I need to post some graded ones, also a Bronze one which is also quite rare and one piece called
"Republica Argentina Libretad" which I have chased for years and been almost fooled once as they are making fake ones that are fairly accurate. I will also include a link to a few more updated TAMS co written with several well know dealers and researches.

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TAMS quote
"We quote from Kurth concerning 1 and 2: ""They are possibly the only examples in numismatics of two pieces being used to depict a single complete scene."" From an extensive study of the card player counters, a great mrmber of varieties of which occur in the German and British series, we believe this is correct and that the counters were sold, or at least intended for sale, in pairs". This is duper cool
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hyf88 · April 30, 2021 7:40PM

Here is my Kettle token, it's about the size of a $2.50 gold piece with much of the gilt remaining.
Purchased for $12.00 at an auction in 2009 where it was labeled as simply "game token". Got really lucky that day for sure.

coinsarefun · May 1, 2021 8:38AM

Nice quarter eagle @hyf88 you’re right, it’s a great price. As more people become aware and understand these tokens and other gaming tokens they become much more pricey.

cmerlo1 · May 1, 2021 2:54PM

Thanks for a great post! Here's mine:

coinsarefun · May 1, 2021 3:39PM

I have looked for several years to find a nice representative of Argentina Game and counter tokens that were used here in America. I finally found found one and will add it to the many Spiel Marke Tokens, Kettle Tokens. Gaming and Gold Rush Tokens so far listed. I have already posted some of the "Keep Your Temper " tokens but didn't give much information on them. yet. I found a nice group of these and should have it within the next few weeks to post here......some are errors even!
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Well, back to this piece, as you can see in the example where I have the gold piece that they used to copy it from and then made what they thought is an acceptable $10 eagle reverse.

GAME COUNTERS
27mm BRONZE REPUBLICA ARGENTINA LIB. UNITED STATES "10D" NGC MS 63 R7

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The image below shows the gold obverse designed used
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Notice on the page I highlighted where they have started to replicate these and are out there so please be aware.
I love how they say that Copies have been seized be the secret serviceHa....not anymore .

coinsarefun · May 7, 2021 8:10PM

I managed to pick up 2 error and one better grade Queen Victoria "Old Head" Gaming token.
These are the only examples I have been able to find that is better condition. And......I have two errors!
There are many varieties with a man and woman sitting at the gaming table playing cards.
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Looks like this one in brass is a little more rarer as the rest on the page notes copper.
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It appears we have a very large strike through. Very impressive.
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Another error
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coinsarefun · May 16, 2021 3:22PM

@coinsarefun said:

Notice on the page I highlighted where they have started to replicate these and are out there so please be aware.
I love how they say that Copies have been seized be the secret serviceHa....not anymore .

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I found a replica example that sold on Ebay as mentioned above. It's not mentioned that its a replica but, you can see and compare when looking at these if you ever are looking to buy one.
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coinsarefun · August 28, 2021 2:27PM

I thought I mine as well update this thread to include another Kettle Token. This is
A token that is always desired by the true Kettle collectors besides the half and quarter eagles.
There are varieties known including a silvered one. Though not very rare it’s next to impossible to find above vf, cleaned or somehow messed with or hooded for suspension.
I’ll ost the image now and post the info later.
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.there were many cartoons made of Napoleon. This is just one of them.
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Zoins · August 28, 2021 5:03PM

Great thread Stef! I love all the tokens you've found and posted here! It's great to see wonderful photos of these!

Here's one I have previously posted elsewhere but fits here as well.

1847 California Counter Gaming Token - Brass - PCGS MS63 POP 0/3/0 - Ex. Jason Rodgers

Very flashy in hand.

coinsarefun · August 28, 2021 5:56PM

Looks great @Zoins i like having them all on one thread

NumisOxide · August 28, 2021 6:10PM

Great thread for referencing Stefanie! Really cool tokens!!

Very nice Zoins!

ZoidMeister · September 4, 2021 10:56AM

Steph,

There seems to be quite a few more pedestrian designs out there as well. Are any of these "desirable" or attributable? How does one estimate an age for these?

I need to check out the TAMS links that you posted. Educating the Zoid is an arduous process.

I picked this one up because it reminded me of Ron Landis's designs. I'm sure this little game counter predates Ron by a year or two.

There looks to be a face on the right hand side of the tree.

Z
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ZoidMeister · September 4, 2021 10:58AM

An interesting Spiel Mark I picked up as well.

Anything interesting about either of these?
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coinsarefun · September 4, 2021 11:08AM

Nice ones. They are addicting as here are hundreds. I do have an article maybe more up to date than TAMS. I look and post it. Here are a few of mine.

This is my favorite
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coinsarefun · September 4, 2021 1:00PM

By the way I was able to pick up several new counters at stacks auction. I’ll post them when they come in

coinsarefun · September 4, 2021 2:08PM

Here is a new pickup. I think this was graded conservatively.
Half Eagle Brass Sp. Marke- 11 Stars NGC MS62

ZoidMeister · September 5, 2021 5:38AM

Inspired by @coinsarefun , I finally secured my first Kettle token.

I love it when sellers don't post photos that really showcase their coins. This was one such auction.

The sellers photos.
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My photos.
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coinsarefun · September 5, 2021 10:37AM

Looks pretty nice @ZoidMeister , congrats on finding one!….

coinsarefun · September 5, 2021 10:39AM

@coinsarefun said:
I thought I mine as well update this thread to include another Kettle Token. This is
A token that is always desired by the true Kettle collectors besides the half and quarter eagles.
There are varieties known including a silvered one. Though not very rare it’s next to impossible to find above vf, cleaned or somehow messed with or hooded for suspension.
I’ll ost the image now and post the info later.
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.there were many cartoons made of Napoleon. This is just one of them.
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.here you go @CaptHenway

ZoidMeister · September 5, 2021 2:47PM

@coinsarefun said:
Looks pretty nice @ZoidMeister , congrats on finding one!….

Ahem, only one . . . . . ?

I liked the one above because the center of the reverse is really well struck.

Z

carabonnair · October 12, 2021 2:38PM

Qur-9, but seems to be a zinc alloy, rather than steel (it is not attracted to a magnet), uniface.
This one is after 1916, since it imitates the flying eagle on the back of the quarter (and same diameter). I didn't know it was listed in Rulau's American Game Counter list (TAMS Journal 1972) until I looked it up last night. On the Newman Numismatic Portal https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/525692

Spiel, Marke Tokens, Kettle Tokens. Gaming Tokens and Gold Rush Tokens information inside

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