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Gov't Regulation in Numismatics?
sellitstore
Posts: 2,599 ✭✭✭✭✭
We probably can all agree that we don't like to see this kind of offering go unchecked. The coins are clearly counterfeit.
So what would be a better way to stop this sort of thing? Stepped up Federal enforcement? State or local enforcement and new laws? Or a different approach?
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
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So we all know that "unopened bank rolls" are most likely completely searched through, and many of us got burned buying them in the past. Leaving that aside for a moment, given that there is no good photo of the coins, on what are you basing your statement that the coins are clearly counterfeit? (As a note, I do not collect Morgans, so I'm very willing to concede that there are obvious indicators that would not be obvious to someone like me, e.g. the mint mark not matching any known CC or such).
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
Those coins don't look obvioulsy counterfit. The pictures are not clear enough..
Obviously this roll has been previously searched. Just look at the telltale signs of the crimping at the end of the roll. Good grief.
No, they are clearly counterfeit. The "CC" mintmark and strike aren't even close to what genuine coins look like. Trust me on this, my authentication skills and experience are quite sufficient for this evaluation, even with the bad photos.
Please, for the sake of my original question, just pretend that they are clearly counterfeit if you can't say. How do we address counterfeits that still proliferate now as much as ever, maybe more? Let's put aside the unsearched roll claim.
An Eastern Montana Bank roll. I know there have been many, many bags of Morgan's in Eastern Montana families.
you should contact the auction house with your claim. Ebay will take things off their site if they are counterfeit. It is already illegal, so not sure what you expect the government to do. Maybe you should contact the secret service and inform them.
State Abbreviations
Postal Abbreviations for States/Territories
Montana
1831: --
1874: Mont.
1943: Mont.
6/1963: MONT
10/1963 - present: MT
https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/state-abbreviations.htm
Paper roll says: MILES CITY, MT
How likely is it they were they rolling Carson City silver dollars in Montana in October, 1963 and later?
Just asking.
The roll hasn't been searched. It's been carefully assembled in a wrapper with a bogus name on it that was printed probably about a week ago.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
The bank existed, still does, but is now Stockman Bank. They are all over our state (my wife worked at the local branch).
Never spent much time in Miles City, drive by it often.
I'd say those mint marks certainly do look questionable.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
If it is a case of fraud, which I don't know it is except based on very reliable experts here there are many remedies for the buyer, but not a lot of solutions to put an end to it unless a major government agency was getting a lot of reports of similar cases.
Not so certain I agree with the counterfeit assertion. I don't see that at all. I do see a made for ebay or auction roll by some dealer somewhere that has a rolling machine. The bank name is wrong on the paper as it should be "the Bank of Miles City" not "Miles city Bank". Banks don't usually screw up their name.
I may be wrong but you'll get two genuine CC dollars and probably 18 common dates.
bob
From here:
https://www.usbanklocations.com/stockman-bank-of-montana-history.shtml
Stockman Bank of Montana, History
1944-01-01 Institution established: Original name:Miles City Bank, Miles City, Montana
contact the state they are in - describe your concerns and see if they have a license (I am not 100% sure they are counterfeit)
https://agri.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/oda/programs/auctioneers/resources/licensed-auction-companies-search
Suppose one calls up law enforcement or a regulatory agency- what does one say? "There are counterfeit coins for sale on XXXX website"? How do they know you know anything about counterfeits and what are the chances anybody there has the experience to confirm that the coins are indeed counterfeit? How much time do you suppose they're going to invest in figuring it out?
When my house was broken into, the police didn't even want to come out to take a report.
This isn't so different than calling the sheriff every time the snake-oil salesman rolls into town. Most likely, they cops are busy enough dealing with people trying to shoot them and each other.
If we did want to find them, determine the correct jurisdiction, convince a prosecuting attorney to pursue it, and go through the process of an indictment and trial, the cost to the taxpayers would be enormous.
Caveat emptor, says I.
I would prefer to keep government regulation out of my life as much as possible, besides there is little that any new government agency could do that current one's cannot but do not.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Only a fool would buy these rolls without seeing the coins.
As for the government, it takes the Secret Service months to decide if a coin it counterfeit. I knew someone who went though the process.
Right, but since the present system isn't working do we fix it or try something else, or? That's what I'm asking. I'm not asking where to report it?
The ends IMO are not right.
Is there anything more that the numismatic community can do? Or someone who isn't the government? Some sort of self or community policing of private websites to remove fake material and sellers?
Better education, maybe? Seems to always be another fool out there but this could help.
There is already a great deal that is being done, however more can always be done if you have money and leverage to make the changes needed. But at the end of the day until buyers educate themselves prior to buying and make themselves less of a target the incentive to take advantage of those uneducated buyers will draw the flies.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I am truly surprised that anyone who specializes in these, even in low grade can't see that they are 100% fake. LanceNewman's enlarged photos really shouldn't leave any doubt. Again, I'm not guessing. Don't be fooled by my currency avatar. And, yes, the ends of the paper roll look quite obviously tampered with and the paper wrapper looks mid 20th century, probably 1930s-60s.
@sellitstore I guess unless you made the purchase, we will never know. I saw the mint marks are good, you say bogus. They are in the correct size and nothing appears weird. Both coins appear to be sliders or very low MS coins. Click on my avitar and you'll see they almost look round without an right side opening on either C.
Oh well,
bob
The bank ran until 1953. Banks in Montana had bags of Silver Dollars until the late 60's, so a roll of Silver Dollars from this bank is not at all uncommon.
How common was it to use "MT" as an abbreviation for "Montana" until it became the post office standard in 1966?
edited to add... How likely is it that government involvement would provide any benefit when the people posting here can't even agree on a determination of fake/not fake?
I’m from the government and I’m here to help you.
The simple solution would be to make all obsolete coins and currency illegal. Then enforcement is easy: grab everything and destroy it.
Maybe we should start a petition.
The government destroyed some 1969-S Lincoln cent doubled dies a while back, and they're not even obsolete. So they've already got a head start.
No. Uncirculated CCs were NOT common in circulation in the West in 1953. Most silver dollars had been recoined into Peace dollars and during the 1950s not many new ones were needed. Silver dollars didn't start coming out of treasury vaults in quantity until the rise in the price in silver during the 1960s. Some better dates (including a few bags of 59O and 60O seated dollars) started to appear then.
@sellitstore I guess unless you made the purchase, we will never know. I saw the mint marks are good, you say bogus.
YOU may never know but I'm 100% certain. Please speak for yourself, if not sure. I COULD supply some credentials and experience that might convince you but really don't want to brag or trump you in any way. Let's just say that my testimony as to authenticity of Morgan dollars has helped convict dishonest coin dealers, over 30 years ago. And my testimony involved mintmarked (added) Morgans. Harold Chorney (Cumberland Coin Investment) vs. The United States. That's the tip of the iceberg of my experience. Again, it's not my intent to brag but I'm a professional numismatist for many decades now with VERY diverse experience.
Again, don't let the avatar fool you. I've been doing this 55 years and try not to accuse anyone of offering counterfeits unless I'm sure. If you are not, please don't speak for me. These CCs are COUNTERFEIT and bad ones at that.
These offerings will not stop. There is a large segment of untrained/uninformed people who purchase this material, thereby giving profit to the hucksters. It will continue. The only thing we, the collector community, can do, is report where we can and hope we save some pain for the inexperienced. We get auctions removed all the time... however, the sellers just reappear with other products. Cheers, RickO
On Ebay, it seems we have a bit of influence but there have always been other venues where abuse is worse. Currently, Facebook seems to be a favorite place to get ripped off and maybe Facebook should do something more.
Yes. Let’s get the government to ban sales of paper wrappers that hold 10 or more coins unless the buyer has been background checked. That approach will work to solve all of our problems.
Long live the nanny state!
If the sale is legit, then why not open the roll and sell them individually? I would guess if all were uncirculated, they would bring more than as a roll.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
My position is simple (and I am holding back). Caveat Emptor - period.
We do not need more government in our lives - we need less government - and accompanying tax reductions to pay for our massive debt.
Those that get fleeced, get fleeced. Become a lion instead of a sheep.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Doubtful. There's always a premium on rolls that aren't cherry picked. Heck, the most frequent question I get with modern Mint material is whether they've been picked over for submission. You'll get more for an unopened 1956 proof set than an opened one. It's the market.
Fair enough but it begs the question, "Do we need law enforcement at all?" I think most would say "Yes". So the question is really where do you draw the line as to where law enforcement gets involved. I think that most would also agree that law enforcement should be involved in getting your coins back if they are stolen from you. But you say "No." to law enforcement getting involved if someone takes your money in exchange for phony coins. Fair enough. Caveat Emptor is a legitimate and reasonable position. This is where I suspect some might disagree. Makes you think, which is good.
The problem with reporting counterfeits here or in other places where many numismatists will see them can be seen with this thread. Where are the experienced dealers commenting on the authenticity of these? Yes, we can't even agree on these and that isn't going to educate anyone.
I'll bet if one of the respected dealers here condemned these, the inexperienced would all fall in line. If you aren't sure or don't have the authentication skills, don't even create any doubt that these might be genuine. You'll only be helping to rip off someone.
Perhaps this board could be doing a better job of self policing if the experts were willing to chime in on threads like these. Why don't we all ask @MFeld or your favorite respected expert?
No. Just buyer beware. We already have TPG grading. Just use common sense - if a big ticket coin is not TPG graded there is a reason....
Beyond that people will always be ripped due to ignorance and greed. It is what it is.
If they're willing to volunteer to do the job, that would be different but this is a lot like asking people to work for no pay. And even then, what do you do about coins that can't be positively identified as real/fake just by the images posted by the seller, assuming that the pictures posted are of the actual item for sale?
There is plenty of government regulation in numismatics. Ask the Langbords. Re: 10 genuine 1933 Gold Double Eagles. Too bad the Hobby Protection Act could not offer them any protection. They even regulated "monetization" of said, which, by regulation.... should have freed all others outside of captivity.
Nothing is safe or sacred.
Experts, like Mr. Feld and myself offer our services for free by commenting on this board all of the time. I was merely suggesting that if a recognized expert commented on the authenticity of these particular CCs in this thread, we wouldn't be debating their authenticity. But, because I don't enjoy the recognition here that others do, my gift of knowledge falls on deaf ears. I find myself warning people who don't appreciate my efforts or expertise, so why bother? I hate to adopt the attitude that if you don't want to listen, you deserve to get burned but that where I am after exchanges like this.
As far as regulation goes, I get that there are many who believe that there is already too much government regulation but I don't see anyone suggesting that we don't need laws or law enforcement to protect our property. So, we do need SOME regulation and the present level does not prevent widespread ripoffs which seem to proliferate now as much as ever. I'm not pushing for more regulation but asking for solutions, other than regulation.
I feel education is maybe our best tool, but an individual needs to be able to evaluate the information and determine if the source seems reliable. The style of the CC mintmarks is wrong and strike is terrible compared to genuine CCs. Please pay attention and evaluate my reasons for condemning these, or you'll never be able to make these determinations yourselves. Oh, and looking at at least a few hundred thousand silver dollars is helpful, too.
I'm trying to teach you guys to fish and not just catch the fish for you.
I have no idea who you are but you sound very important. Can you tell us who you are?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Your intentions are commendable but how is one expected to appreciate the expertise of an anonymous poster unless such expertise can be verified? "Because I said so" doesn't work as a confirmation- sorry.
How would you like to verify my experience? I can't tell you about it without "bragging", so I chose to tell you what to look for to determine the counterfeits. If my information is good, perhaps you should use this to determine my expertise.
Rick, I respect your expertise (and sense of humor) and first met you about 40 years ago when we both attended Stack's and other sales. As a recognized expert, and the first who has chimed in, would you kindly offer your opinion of authenticity on the pictured CC dollars?
While "it doesn't look right" is how most counterfeits are identified, obviously it isn't the most compelling argument from an anonymous online poster.
No one here is asking for a fish. The bit about giving a fish vs teaching to fish is just plain strange to me. The analogy would really only work in this situation if someone is soliciting you to give an opinion on authenticity, not your making an assertion and getting upset that some politely question your assertion.
It also seems that you are viewing yourself as the savior warning people not to buy these. Do you think the members of this forum will be purchasing this lot? I find that incredibly difficult to believe. Anyone reading this thread will either know from experience or have done the barest amount of research necessary to know to avoid "unsearched rolls" like this. Maybe convincing people who are not going to buy something that they shouldn't buy it for a different reason is vitally important. Maybe not.
The root of the problem is, how do you educate people who don't take the time to educate themselves?
As an aside, I don't collect Morgans but they do look off to me. But that's an opinion that's worth what you paid for it
I'm getting tired of him telling us (without bragging, of course) how knowledgeable he is and how much he's trying to educate us and save numismatics. This forum identifies counterfeits on eBay all of the time and we join forces to get them removed.
This particular listing looks off, but not definitively to me based on those photos. But I'm not really sure why that should make me want to create a Federal Bureau of Auction Investigations to deal with the problem.