The exaggerated pricing of very high grade coins
robbylu52
Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
I don’t understand the high prices paid for ms 67-68 coins, and in some cases ms 66. As an old long time collector l don’t see paying super high prices for small technical grade differences that are virtually undetectable to the naked eye
4
Comments
Especially in smaller coins where the difference is so incredibly small
Why pay 10x the price for a ms 67 when you see no difference from a 66
One word. Registry.
I don’t even know if pcgs graders can explain a 67-68 or a 66-67
Does anybody feel the same
Would like to hear different opinions from collectors and investors
Don't buy one, then.
Buy what you understand.
Some people can see the difference. And sometimes, if you really know a series, one point can make the difference between a "nice coin" and a "wonder coin", and a crazy premium may make perfect sense. (That's probably not the case on anything I collect.) Regardless, everyone has his own reasons for collecting the way he does.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I won’t buy one unless I can see a real difference. Maybe in a silver dollar
Or possibly a half dollar. That makes more sense
Andy, If the eye appeal is there in terms of strike luster and originality I will accept smaller marks and own a 65 or maybe 66.
Instead of paying for 67-68 money
As with many things, there's a point of diminishing returns. If there's a huge jump in price for a slightly nicer condition, you've reached the point of diminishing returns.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
To me such coins have to be truly outstanding for what they are. They have to really “reach out” to the experienced collector, not just for the technical grade but also with beauty and outstanding eye appeal. For me an average looking coin with a high grading number on the slab does not cut it.
And one more thing. Those coins are few and far between.
It's all about the registry sets. The PCGS marketing geniuses hit a home run on this one! I admire the way they've created a demand for ultra high grades.
Check out the PCGS population reports for a particular coin. The MS67 and MS68 grades are more rare and thus considered "limited edition". Simple supply and demand.
You may not care about the rarity but others do and are willing to pay the higher price. Their money, their decision to buy.
What may seem expensive to you is pocket change to a wealthy collector as well.
Finally, for example a collector of trading cards will pay a much higher price for a limited edition rookie or autographed card even though there are many versions of the card but the higher grades are worth more to some collectors.
The rich have gotten much richer in recent years and want "trophy coins" for their registry sets.
For those who just want a specimen of a coin, then the prices of high grades certainly appear exaggerated. However, for the collector(s), and there are many, who seek top quality (grade, condition), the prices are obviously not exaggerated - or they would not sell. Yes, the practiced skill of grading does allow discernment between 66-67-68 on coins. To the unskilled eye, probably not. We are definitely talking degrees of perfection. I have my own dissatisfaction with grading, since there are no defined, measurable standards. I do, however, respect the skills of those highly trained people. The training is such that among those skilled, a consensus is quickly agreed upon. Yes, a skilled opinion, but decidedly a skill. Cheers, RickO
Never ending debate.
Might have only viewed a couple MS67's at shows, but had this renter showed me dozens of raw MS62/63 Morgans. Then he showed me a couple of GSA Morgan dollars.
Ho hum. Ho hum. BAM... a MS67 just jumps out and you know it when you see it.
Common date, but wish I had kept it.
Hard to explain, but some seek perfection.
Many will pay for it, and others enjoy the hunt.
You just don't see them very often... graded and certainly not raw.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
So you can see the difference, but not understand the price?
Its the law of diminishing returns. It's the same with anything.
I also do astronomy. You can buy a particular eyepiece for $30 and they range up to about $900 for that same size. A $100 one compared to the $30 shows more difference than the comparing the $800 to the $900... and most folks cant tell the difference. For eyepieces, I have the $900 kind because even though there is very slight difference, that difference is worth the extra $100 to me. I would guess that if I couldn't tell the difference, and I didn't associate with anyone that could, maybe I'd go for the $800... but I can tell the difference, and whether others can tell the difference or not, they do understand the high quality.
I mainly collect raw Ancients, PCGS Mercury Dimes, and raw CSA'S... but have misc other sets...Jeffhttps://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/set/215647https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/showcase/8378
Taylor Made driver or a generic. Mercedes or Ford, Macallen Single or Johnnie Walker Red...
If you want the best, you pay up for the best. Is it worth it?, it really depends on what you prioritize.
... and how much funds you have.
I can see the difference and I'm still usually not willing to pay up.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Yes it’s all about the registry sets then why were knowledgeable high end collectors paying huge premiums for quality before they came into existence?
Well, there are real differences, even if you can't see them or appreciate them. I'm quite certain a PCGS graders know and appreciate the difference. If you disagree, try buying a bunch of MS66 Peace dollars, cracking them out, resubmitting, and seeing how many MS67 coins you get. If you're exceptionally lucky, you'll get one in dozens of tries.
Small differences in quality often translate to large differences in price and this extends beyond the world of numismatics. The demand for the very best exceeds the supply of the very best so simple economics explains the prices. If the next grade down is good enough for you, that's the one you should probably buy.
For 1922-1935 (Type II) Peace dollars, ignoring plus coins, here's the PCGS POP reports:
MS63 - 244,501
MS64 - 229,257
MS65 - 49,118
MS66 - 8,498
MS67 - 388
MS68 - 2
My eyes have never been good enough to separate a one step difference once I step into the high end. Some do stand out, but a lot of the time it's very nebulous to me.
I do understand the price jumps based on rarity, but some of those price jumps blows my mind. To some it's well worth the price difference with in demand pieces and that's great. I will pay more when that step up makes a difference to me personally, but I need to be able to easily see it.
Huge difference between 33 & 65, 65 & 67 and so on. Some 66's should be a 67 and some not. You cannot blame a collector for going for quality and perfection. And you cannot blame it on the registry, going for quality and perfection has been going on for over 100 years of collecting just look at the great collectors, all their collections are still the highest graded before the registry and after the registry. their coins stand the test of time. The registry brought everyone below them into it
I understand the thinking of sophisticated collectors and investors. But I am not sure most of them can differentiate the grading between 66-67-68. I realize the professional graders can for the most part but even they must have some difficulty when they are in the 67-68 range.
The thing I really don’t understand is people paying crazy money for common date super high grade coins. At least buy rarer dates whenever you can afford big money coins. Just my opinion
This topic has been discussed for as long as this board has been around. It's certainly worth discussing. As others have said, we should all collect what makes us happy!
One point I'd like to make again: a PCGS or NGC grade does in fact correlate closely with what most people would call "quality" (in a more qualitative sense!). But, it is certainly not absolute. Like many others, I'm a big fan of the Oregon half dollar. I have a bit of a grade set -- nice coins grading 65, 66, 67, and 68. I actually think that most board members who have spent time with this issue could arrange the coins in grade order. If you look at the coins, there is a clear progression that correlates with stated grading standards. That's a good thing! However, if I asked board members to rank them in order according to their favorite coins, there would be much less of a consensus. Even the 65, which has extraordinary reverse toning, would likely come on top in some rankings.
I don’t think it’s any more difficult to tell a 67 from a 68 than it is to tell a 63 from a 64.
It certainly could be diminishing returns for some, but for others it could be maximizing enjoyment if the differences can be appreciated.
A coin's value is a function of three things: rarity, popularity, and condition.
Obviously, in the case of "common" coins, a traditional idea of rarity, i.e. the number minted, does not really apply here. In the case of popularity--take Morgan Dollars. There are millions of them--slabbed or otherwise. However, they enjoy such a level of popularity that greatly pushes their price above what might be expected for a less popular silver dollar type with the same metallic composition. The Morgan Dollar is iconic and that drives up the price, notwithstanding the mintage numbers for the common dates.
When you have such a large number of people going after Morgan Dollars, to use my example, that is going to bid up the price. The buyers are going to want the "best" one and will compete in the marketplace for it. Now, that can be a rare CC Morgan, obviously, but it can also be a blazing white MS66 common date with prooflike surfaces and what not. That will also impress this example's fellow collectors and the prestige he feels in owning such a high grade and, indeed, common date Morgan is comparable to what one feels in the case of having a tough date.
Rarity is rarity in the final analysis--whether it is "engineered" or not. If you look at your population reports for your grades of just about any semi-modern silver coinage in the United States, you will probably notice that the coins fall in a standard distribution, i.e. a 'bellcurve.' Something that is MS67 or whatever is going to be 2 or 3 standard deviations away from the mean. People will inherently sense the rarity of the assigned grade over the course of encountering thousands of Morgan Dollars in their dealings. They will almost instinctively develop a sense that it should be expensive and pay accordingly.
A higher grade does not frequently equal better quality. A big wild card is eye appeal.
@Catbert said “A higher grade does not frequently equal better quality. A big wild card is eye appeal.”
If you rephrased the first part as “A higher grade frequently does not equal better quality” I would agree with you.
It’s dictated by the market. Many players want the very best. Top pop quality coins bring huge premiums.
I think it is a little more challenging as you get higher. Strike and luster start to matter more. The idea of a small mark or distracting mark become more challenging.
From 60 to 64/65 you can tell a lot just from the accumulation of marks. As the number of marks become fewer and the other issues (strike/luster) take over, I think it is more challenging. At 67/68, it now starts to matter whether the little ding is on the cheek or behind the hair or out in the field.
Just a thought. If I were only collecting Peace Dollars, I’d pay huge prices for the absolutely best coins, and it would be worth it to me. (I love the coins and I know what I’m looking at.) But if I were collecting the whole Red Book, I wouldn’t want to pay huge money for the last point or two on my Peace Dollars, as I would have too many better places to spend the money.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Totally agree! I don’t buy into the easy and false answer of registry sets. PCGS might have hit a home run by being first but they didn’t discover the wheel, nor did the Kelley Blue Book.
The fact is simple, a VG coin is worth less than an MS example because of condition. By the same token a 67 is worth less than a 68. Then factor in the survival rate and rarity of those higher grades.
Even cavemen payed more for wheels that were more circular and less bumpy.
This is news! Cavemen had money?!?!?
I would not suggest that there weren't premium coins before registry sets. HOWEVER, you cannot possibly overstate the effect of TPGS's and Registry sets on the value proposition for that extra point or the + or the CAC. This is especially true for common date Lincolns or Mercs where you can now get huge money for that top pop coin. I don't think there is any comparable in the pre-slab era.
It's supply and demand. They're rarer and desirable so they're worth more. It's certainly not for everyone though.
Successful Transactions With: JoeLewis, Mkman123, Harry779, Grote15, gdavis70, Kryptonitecomics
Yea, I see your point and cannot disagree with that, especially since you referenced what I’m into. It makes sense on both levels.
Of course cavemen had money how else could they have made all those wheels. They had to pay somebody.
Actually, cavemen didn’t have wheels, so I guess they didn’t need money.
So are you saying that they just walked everywhere?
And I guess everything was just free too!
And don't buy what you don't understand.....but a lot of folks do anyway.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I suggest you read TOS if you want to be here next week
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1009079/pcgs-forum-rules-and-guidelines-updated-1-27-2020#latest
If the prices for top coins were not too high for the vast majority of collectors, then the price would go up. This pricing is the nature of things. Some people value those small incremental improvements.
It's fine if the majority of us or collectors don't think it's worth the money. I don't see an issue.
In most cases I'm happy to take the 66 or 67 versus the rarer 68.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me