You still have not addressed the issue, and your words about "nicely ask" are really frustrating. You know from many other dealers that are progressive in this business that we collectively are frustrated with CDN, but understanding of the pricing difficulties in a dynamic market. Those can be overlooked IF they are addressed promptly...which
What is really infuriating is that the goalposts change mid subscription and then the customer "service" response is: "YOU COULD HAVE ASKED NICELY".
That is frankly insulting. It should have been automatic....and it should have been broadcast as a notice with apology....and it the paper copy should have showed up on my doorstep or PO Box on time for me to use as I have PAID you to use.
Period.
I'm really confused. We didn't move the goal posts. We simply changed the way users access their digital copies of the publication. We just changed the way you view your publication but it still works great and many people like it better. We have simultaneously added a free app which also allows access on a smart phone or tablet. But we never promised subscribers that we'd always allow PDF downloads with the ability to freely distribute to anyone they like. We kept that option until we developed technology to deliver the publication better with more security for our IP.
I am truly sorry that you don't like the new access feature, but nearly every print publication I know, that also offers a secure digital version, does it this way. CDN was frankly insane for giving out the PDF. There is no simple way to secure PDFs.
So, if you want a printed magazine now, all we asked of you, or anyone else with the digital-only subscription is to upgrade to the price of print, which is just a few dollars more per month (something like $5). And I told the ladies in customer service that if someone called and asked nicely, they could give it to them at their discretion. This was never intended to be a FREE upgrade to the print subscription. Based on what you wrote here it sounds like you were offered a free upgrade to print as long as you renewed your subscription. I don't understand why you are so upset about this, but there's really nothing else we can do. We simply cannot use the PDF format any longer.
As far as the "ask nicely" part I think that's a reasonable request. Our customer service dept is small and we take a lot of pride in our work, so it takes a terrible toll when people treat our ladies without respect. CDN is not United Airlines, or Cox cable. We're a small company just like you and every other coin dealer and we call all get along quite well if we treat each other with respect. The mention of that should not offend you and I will say no more on this matter.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
You still have not addressed the issue, and your words about "nicely ask" are really frustrating. You know from many other dealers that are progressive in this business that we collectively are frustrated with CDN, but understanding of the pricing difficulties in a dynamic market. Those can be overlooked IF they are addressed promptly...which
What is really infuriating is that the goalposts change mid subscription and then the customer "service" response is: "YOU COULD HAVE ASKED NICELY".
That is frankly insulting. It should have been automatic....and it should have been broadcast as a notice with apology....and it the paper copy should have showed up on my doorstep or PO Box on time for me to use as I have PAID you to use.
Period.
I'm really confused. We didn't move the goal posts. We simply changed the way users access their digital copies of the publication. We just changed the way you view your publication but it still works great and many people like it better. We have simultaneously added a free app which also allows access on a smart phone or tablet. But we never promised subscribers that we'd always allow PDF downloads with the ability to freely distribute to anyone they like. We kept that option until we developed technology to deliver the publication better with more security for our IP.
I am truly sorry that you don't like the new access feature, but nearly every print publication I know, that also offers a secure digital version, does it this way. CDN was frankly insane for giving out the PDF. There is no simple way to secure PDFs.
So, if you want a printed magazine now, all we asked of you, or anyone else with the digital-only subscription is to upgrade to the price of print, which is just a few dollars more per month (something like $5). And I told the ladies in customer service that if someone called and asked nicely, they could give it to them at their discretion. This was never intended to be a FREE upgrade to the print subscription. Based on what you wrote here it sounds like you were offered a free upgrade to print as long as you renewed your subscription. I don't understand why you are so upset about this, but there's really nothing else we can do. We simply cannot use the PDF format any longer.
As far as the "ask nicely" part I think that's a reasonable request. Our customer service dept is small and we take a lot of pride in our work, so it takes a terrible toll when people treat our ladies without respect. CDN is not United Airlines, or Cox cable. We're a small company just like you and every other coin dealer and we call all get along quite well if we treat each other with respect. The mention of that should not offend you and I will say no more on this matter.
So maybe I am misunderstanding. How does one use the service if there is no connectivity? I'm buying a coin collection on a farm in rural Idaho. How do I access the data?
So maybe I am misunderstanding. How does one use the service if there is no connectivity? I'm buying a coin collection on a farm in rural Idaho. How do I access the data?
Just open the tab up in your browser viewing the publication and don't close it. It will remain available to you without internet.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
So maybe I am misunderstanding. How does one use the service if there is no connectivity? I'm buying a coin collection on a farm in rural Idaho. How do I access the data?
Just open the tab up in your browser viewing the publication and don't close it. It will remain available to you without internet.
John, it won't zoom easily at all. Slips all over the place and you have to zoom on each individual page, then zoom out, scroll (clunky as hell) and then rezoom.
I'm on a Mac, but shouldn't this have been tested? You know from your time in this business that time is money.....and when I do use the greysheet, it usually a glance for sanity check or looking up something that I haven't frequently traded.
This IS moving the goalposts. Using the greysheet used to be easy. I never printed it, I just downloaded it and had available on my computer. And even if you shipped it hard copy, how long do you think it would take with the USPS to get issuance on time?
Bottom line: The product for which I have given you money has changed in a way that makes it unusable to me. And to make it usable, you want more money. These are the actions of a company in serious transition rowing upstream of market forces.
No need to respond to this. The interaction is really just solidifying my decision. Thank you for the time. No need for you and I to discuss further.
@MFeld said:
That was an undeserved and pathetically inaccurate cheap shot.
Your secret squirrel sheet isn't going to help you if you go up against me at an auction & I won't be selling you any of my coins at dreck prices.
My guess is that it's useful on widows & noobs.
So maybe I am misunderstanding. How does one use the service if there is no connectivity? I'm buying a coin collection on a farm in rural Idaho. How do I access the data?
Just open the tab up in your browser viewing the publication and don't close it. It will remain available to you without internet.
I like Greysheet. Greysheet is useful. I will continue to subscribe to Greysheet. I understand the IP issue.
BUT, this answer really isn't a solution to the customer's problem and I think you can do better.
While you perhaps did not explicitly promise that a pdf would be available for the duration of an annual subscription, the format of the Greysheet was a pdf when we renewed our annual subscription. I really don't think it is good customer service to tell us that you have the right to provide the newsletter in any format you want during the subscription. If you went to an IPhone only format, would we have to all just get an IPhone because you have the right?
Suppose I'm an old paper-only guy and I don't use a computer. Would you consider it within your rights to eliminate paper and go digital only during my subscription without recompense? The fact is that you did change the product during a subscription and I think you could be a little more accommodating to this customer, and others like him.
Your solution - open the tab and keep it open is great IF I know I'm going to be losing internet access. If I suddenly find myself out of range, am I supposed to drive back until I get a cell signal, open it and return, hoping that I don't have to reload the document later because the app gets closed or crashes?
This is not an argument for continuing to allow for pdfs. However, if you have changed the functionality of your publication during the subscription time, I do think you could have provided paper copies for the duration of the subscription. Subscribers could then decide upon renewal whether it still worked for them.
Greysheet is good in a limited number of areas. However, when I look to buy lucite encased Bank of NY fugio cents, grey sheet understandably cannot help me. Same with black NGC slabs, all white label NGC 2.0 and NGC 2.1 slabs, GS again cannot help. Just some examples.
John F. should stand his ground but after a period of 3 months or so, offer a website and print version of retro issues that can freely be shared by all so casual collectors can learn about GS as well as the coin market. It is also useful for certain coins that rarely change prices quickly .
GS used to offer their retro print issues for free at coin shows as a marketing/advertising tool so that ithis is not a big suggestion.
So maybe I am misunderstanding. How does one use the service if there is no connectivity? I'm buying a coin collection on a farm in rural Idaho. How do I access the data?
Just open the tab up in your browser viewing the publication and don't close it. It will remain available to you without internet.
I like Greysheet. Greysheet is useful. I will continue to subscribe to Greysheet. I understand the IP issue.
BUT, this answer really isn't a solution to the customer's problem and I think you can do better.
While you perhaps did not explicitly promise that a pdf would be available for the duration of an annual subscription, the format of the Greysheet was a pdf when we renewed our annual subscription. I really don't think it is good customer service to tell us that you have the right to provide the newsletter in any format you want during the subscription. If you went to an IPhone only format, would we have to all just get an IPhone because you have the right?
Suppose I'm an old paper-only guy and I don't use a computer. Would you consider it within your rights to eliminate paper and go digital only during my subscription without recompense? The fact is that you did change the product during a subscription and I think you could be a little more accommodating to this customer, and others like him.
Your solution - open the tab and keep it open is great IF I know I'm going to be losing internet access. If I suddenly find myself out of range, am I supposed to drive back until I get a cell signal, open it and return, hoping that I don't have to reload the document later because the app gets closed or crashes?
This is not an argument for continuing to allow for pdfs. However, if you have changed the functionality of your publication during the subscription time, I do think you could have provided paper copies for the duration of the subscription. Subscribers could then decide upon renewal whether it still worked for them.
Aren't you the same guy who defends the right of MEGA corporations such as PayPal and eBay to change their terms of service whenever they want? Unless Greysheet refuses to provide a prorated refund to anyone who wants to cancel their subscriptions because of the new policies, you're being inconsistent here.
this thread sort of makes me think of attempts to dump the ACA with never a mention of what will replace it. I would ask the OP, what will you now use?? while many dealers and collectors may buy in areas where there are other guides for them to use, the Grey Sheet covers too, too much of the Hobby for it to be abandoned with no replacement.
So now companies have to time policy changes to when a certain subscription ends? I’m sure the fine print states changes and upgrades my commence at any time.
On further reflection I agree with @jmlanzaf in a certain sense. If you are a digital-only subscriber and you need access to the sheet in non-internet areas you should call us and negotiate an upgrade to print. Or we will refund the remainder of your subscription. We would love to develop for an analog world but the future is digital and we’re building for that. But the printed magazine is still awesome IMO. It’s just limited in the amount of data we can publish and the USPS which has been slow lately. Hopefully that will improve.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
So maybe I am misunderstanding. How does one use the service if there is no connectivity? I'm buying a coin collection on a farm in rural Idaho. How do I access the data?
Just open the tab up in your browser viewing the publication and don't close it. It will remain available to you without internet.
I like Greysheet. Greysheet is useful. I will continue to subscribe to Greysheet. I understand the IP issue.
BUT, this answer really isn't a solution to the customer's problem and I think you can do better.
While you perhaps did not explicitly promise that a pdf would be available for the duration of an annual subscription, the format of the Greysheet was a pdf when we renewed our annual subscription. I really don't think it is good customer service to tell us that you have the right to provide the newsletter in any format you want during the subscription. If you went to an IPhone only format, would we have to all just get an IPhone because you have the right?
Suppose I'm an old paper-only guy and I don't use a computer. Would you consider it within your rights to eliminate paper and go digital only during my subscription without recompense? The fact is that you did change the product during a subscription and I think you could be a little more accommodating to this customer, and others like him.
Your solution - open the tab and keep it open is great IF I know I'm going to be losing internet access. If I suddenly find myself out of range, am I supposed to drive back until I get a cell signal, open it and return, hoping that I don't have to reload the document later because the app gets closed or crashes?
This is not an argument for continuing to allow for pdfs. However, if you have changed the functionality of your publication during the subscription time, I do think you could have provided paper copies for the duration of the subscription. Subscribers could then decide upon renewal whether it still worked for them.
Aren't you the same guy who defends the right of MEGA corporations such as PayPal and eBay to change their terms of service whenever they want? Unless Greysheet refuses to provide a prorated refund to anyone who wants to cancel their subscriptions because of the new policies, you're being inconsistent here.
Not at all.
Changing terms of service ask you to approve moving forward. They do not affect my paid for subscription. When my cell phone or cable change tends, they do it at the end of my contract. I have NEVER defended the right of a corporation to not provide a service they've been paid for.
CDN has every right to change their offerings in any way they want. However they are obligated to either fulfill the terms of the contract or compensate the other party.
Paypal, Amazon, Visa change terms all the time. They provide notification and allow you to opt out of future use if you wish. If you don't see the difference, then you're just trolling.
@JohnF said:
On further reflection I agree with @jmlanzaf in a certain sense. If you are a digital-only subscriber and you need access to the sheet in non-internet areas you should call us and negotiate an upgrade to print. Or we will refund the remainder of your subscription. We would love to develop for an analog world but the future is digital and we’re building for that. But the printed magazine is still awesome IMO. It’s just limited in the amount of data we can publish and the USPS which has been slow lately. Hopefully that will improve.
That is an excellent solution and I am very glad to hear it.
For that it's worth, I remain a satisfied customer. The world changes and we change with it. Greysheet remains the best price guide for US coins in existence.
@MFeld said:
That was an undeserved and pathetically inaccurate cheap shot.
Your secret squirrel sheet isn't going to help you if you go up against me at an auction & I won't be selling you any of my coins at dreck prices.
My guess is that it's useful on widows & noobs.
@MFeld said:
That was an undeserved and pathetically inaccurate cheap shot.
Your secret squirrel sheet isn't going to help you if you go up against me at an auction & I won't be selling you any of my coins at dreck prices.
My guess is that it's useful on widows & noobs.
Contrary to what you seem to think, I and many others who use CDN don’t do so in order to try to take advantage of sellers. If a buyer is going to try to do that, he doesn’t need the CDN or any other guide as an aid.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@keets said:
this thread sort of makes me think of attempts to dump the ACA with never a mention of what will replace it. I would ask the OP, what will you now use?? while many dealers and collectors may buy in areas where there are other guides for them to use, the Grey Sheet covers too, too much of the Hobby for it to be abandoned with no replacement.
what will your replacement be?
Replacements are largely just being active in the market and seeing transactions take place in real time. I watch buys/sells happen dozens of times per day, often times in line with the greysheet, but often times way out of line, both high and low.
Auction records provide quite a bit of data on the market of other less frequently traded meat and potatoes type stuff with its own internal modifications and needed nuanced knowledge of the markets.
And....trust me, I DONT want to lose the reference of the greysheet, because it is, for now at least, a market touchstone because of longevity and familiarity. But if I am going to pay for a publication, which I am happy to remit to @JohnF for his work and effort, it is not unreasonable to ask that the data (which is what he is advocating correctly to protect since it is of value) be:
Accurate
Timely
Available
Usable
Many of you know that I live in Silicon Valley and have had a strange blended career with the Navy, data and tech. If Google were providing the greysheet, I guarantee this publication and its access/billing and everything in between would be vastly different.
Google understands the value of data. They also understand the value of outstanding UI/UX. And they understand scaling.
So maybe I am misunderstanding. How does one use the service if there is no connectivity? I'm buying a coin collection on a farm in rural Idaho. How do I access the data?
Just open the tab up in your browser viewing the publication and don't close it. It will remain available to you without internet.
I like Greysheet. Greysheet is useful. I will continue to subscribe to Greysheet. I understand the IP issue.
BUT, this answer really isn't a solution to the customer's problem and I think you can do better.
While you perhaps did not explicitly promise that a pdf would be available for the duration of an annual subscription, the format of the Greysheet was a pdf when we renewed our annual subscription. I really don't think it is good customer service to tell us that you have the right to provide the newsletter in any format you want during the subscription. If you went to an IPhone only format, would we have to all just get an IPhone because you have the right?
Suppose I'm an old paper-only guy and I don't use a computer. Would you consider it within your rights to eliminate paper and go digital only during my subscription without recompense? The fact is that you did change the product during a subscription and I think you could be a little more accommodating to this customer, and others like him.
Your solution - open the tab and keep it open is great IF I know I'm going to be losing internet access. If I suddenly find myself out of range, am I supposed to drive back until I get a cell signal, open it and return, hoping that I don't have to reload the document later because the app gets closed or crashes?
This is not an argument for continuing to allow for pdfs. However, if you have changed the functionality of your publication during the subscription time, I do think you could have provided paper copies for the duration of the subscription. Subscribers could then decide upon renewal whether it still worked for them.
Aren't you the same guy who defends the right of MEGA corporations such as PayPal and eBay to change their terms of service whenever they want? Unless Greysheet refuses to provide a prorated refund to anyone who wants to cancel their subscriptions because of the new policies, you're being inconsistent here.
Not at all.
Changing terms of service ask you to approve moving forward. They do not affect my paid for subscription. When my cell phone or cable change tends, they do it at the end of my contract. I have NEVER defended the right of a corporation to not provide a service they've been paid for.
CDN has every right to change their offerings in any way they want. However they are obligated to either fulfill the terms of the contract or compensate the other party.
Paypal, Amazon, Visa change terms all the time. They provide notification and allow you to opt out of future use if you wish. If you don't see the difference, then you're just trolling.
Hence why I said: Unless Greysheet refuses to provide a prorated refund to anyone who wants to cancel their subscriptions
If they will give you a refund on the unused portion of your subscription, then they are essentially allowing you to "opt out of future use". So what difference am I supposed to be seeing?
I'll let you have the last word as I don't really want to derail this thread further.
So maybe I am misunderstanding. How does one use the service if there is no connectivity? I'm buying a coin collection on a farm in rural Idaho. How do I access the data?
Just open the tab up in your browser viewing the publication and don't close it. It will remain available to you without internet.
I like Greysheet. Greysheet is useful. I will continue to subscribe to Greysheet. I understand the IP issue.
BUT, this answer really isn't a solution to the customer's problem and I think you can do better.
While you perhaps did not explicitly promise that a pdf would be available for the duration of an annual subscription, the format of the Greysheet was a pdf when we renewed our annual subscription. I really don't think it is good customer service to tell us that you have the right to provide the newsletter in any format you want during the subscription. If you went to an IPhone only format, would we have to all just get an IPhone because you have the right?
Suppose I'm an old paper-only guy and I don't use a computer. Would you consider it within your rights to eliminate paper and go digital only during my subscription without recompense? The fact is that you did change the product during a subscription and I think you could be a little more accommodating to this customer, and others like him.
Your solution - open the tab and keep it open is great IF I know I'm going to be losing internet access. If I suddenly find myself out of range, am I supposed to drive back until I get a cell signal, open it and return, hoping that I don't have to reload the document later because the app gets closed or crashes?
This is not an argument for continuing to allow for pdfs. However, if you have changed the functionality of your publication during the subscription time, I do think you could have provided paper copies for the duration of the subscription. Subscribers could then decide upon renewal whether it still worked for them.
Aren't you the same guy who defends the right of MEGA corporations such as PayPal and eBay to change their terms of service whenever they want? Unless Greysheet refuses to provide a prorated refund to anyone who wants to cancel their subscriptions because of the new policies, you're being inconsistent here.
Not at all.
Changing terms of service ask you to approve moving forward. They do not affect my paid for subscription. When my cell phone or cable change tends, they do it at the end of my contract. I have NEVER defended the right of a corporation to not provide a service they've been paid for.
CDN has every right to change their offerings in any way they want. However they are obligated to either fulfill the terms of the contract or compensate the other party.
Paypal, Amazon, Visa change terms all the time. They provide notification and allow you to opt out of future use if you wish. If you don't see the difference, then you're just trolling.
Hence why I said: Unless Greysheet refuses to provide a prorated refund to anyone who wants to cancel their subscriptions
If they will give you a refund on the unused portion of your subscription, then they are essentially allowing you to "opt out of future use". So what difference am I supposed to be seeing?
I'll let you have the last word as I don't really want to derail this thread further.
I suggested in that message to JohnF that they consider just such compensation. We agree on that. You are the one that seemed to think my asking for such an option was inconsistent with my views on PayPal changing TOS. I maintain, it is completely consistent.
I'm glad we finally agree and you retract your objection. [Implicitly ]
Google has a market cap of almost $2T and hundreds of thousands of contractors and employees. I’m guessing that the graysheet has a market cap of around $2M and maybe a half dozen employees. Of course google can do it better.
@3stars said:
Google has a market cap of almost $2T and hundreds of thousands of contractors and employees. I’m guessing that the graysheet has a market cap of around $2M and maybe a half dozen employees. Of course google can do it better.
You are missing the point. Those are industry practice objectives and their outcomes are not super sensitive to size or access to capital, especially in the mid to long term.
What did you do in the military, how long and what do you do now btw?
I watch buys/sells happen dozens of times per day, often times in line with the greysheet, but often times way out of line, both high and low.
I think that would be an accurate statement about ANY price guide, so I'm left thinking the GreySheet is performing well, as expected. a guide, any guide, is just that. if it gives me an average and guard-rails to work between it is doing what it's supposed to be doing.
Yes if your setup at a show you will have buyers try talk you down quoting CDN bid. I especially dislike the little know it all low ballers.
I basically ignore this background radiation and quote price that works for me. Many times told them go find one, send them (CDN) a check, that’s lowest consignor will go, do you have one sell me, basically just have fun messing w them (tire kicker trash). There are many in bourse room simply working their angle.
For me many items priced cost plus especially low pop, PQ, super toner, one side is PL, etc so what some price guide says basically a non factor for me especially if item has plus factors. I don’t let price guides inhibit me taking target margin.
@yspsales said:
Wish I had the business to justify a subscription. Gave it up some time ago.
If there was no CDN, somebody would invent it...
I can see how a PDF format could be abused and often wondered about that issue.
Wonder if your revenues will spike up?
Personally, I'm not sure the pdf is any more abused than the paper copy. I mean, sure, I could email 1000 copies of the pdf around. But I could also cut the binding off the paper copy and run 1000 paper copies.
Even now, if I really want to be a thief, I can take screenshots of the sheet page by page and create my own pdf.
The internet has made IP hard to protect as well as convincing people that all content should be free. Textbook publishers have this same basic problem which I see all the time in my "regular job".
@JohnF said:
On further reflection I agree with @jmlanzaf in a certain sense. If you are a digital-only subscriber and you need access to the sheet in non-internet areas you should call us and negotiate an upgrade to print. Or we will refund the remainder of your subscription. We would love to develop for an analog world but the future is digital and we’re building for that. But the printed magazine is still awesome IMO. It’s just limited in the amount of data we can publish and the USPS which has been slow lately. Hopefully that will improve.
This has been an interesting conversation. As someone who preferred the "old" webpage and found it much easier to navigate, I had to make adjustments to the new layout and extra navigation required when searching for pricing when going from year to year within a series. In other words, it's much more efficient to search columns and rows than click and click and click. Nonetheless, others clearly seem to prefer the more modern layout and the way the information is currently accessed.
Please understand, while the future is digital, that does not mean the future must be constant Internet access. You can still have a digital product, but not require access to the Internet to use. Adobe Acrobat can create password-enabled documents that do not allow printing. Thus the digital information is available on your device whenever you need it and the IP is not shared through copying.
On a final note ... your staff is very polite and has always been helpful. They are an asset to your company!
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@JohnF said:
On further reflection I agree with @jmlanzaf in a certain sense. If you are a digital-only subscriber and you need access to the sheet in non-internet areas you should call us and negotiate an upgrade to print. Or we will refund the remainder of your subscription. We would love to develop for an analog world but the future is digital and we’re building for that. But the printed magazine is still awesome IMO. It’s just limited in the amount of data we can publish and the USPS which has been slow lately. Hopefully that will improve.
This has been an interesting conversation. As someone who preferred the "old" webpage and found it much easier to navigate, I had to make adjustments to the new layout and extra navigation required when searching for pricing when going from year to year within a series. In other words, it's much more efficient to search columns and rows than click and click and click. Nonetheless, others clearly seem to prefer the more modern layout and the way the information is currently accessed.
Please understand, while the future is digital, that does not mean the future must be constant Internet access. You can still have a digital product, but not require access to the Internet to use. Adobe Acrobat can create password-enabled documents that do not allow printing. Thus the digital information is available on your device whenever you need it and the IP is not shared through copying.
On a final note ... your staff is very polite and has always been helpful. They are an asset to your company!
I would like to second the compliment to the staff. They have always been very polite and very helpful and promptly handled my renewals.
I've used CDN for over 40 years and will continue to do so.
I prefer print copy as I am not tech savvy at all.
Sure, it has its limitations, but it is a very useful pricing tool and at the very least gives a starting point for any negotiations.
I dislike using eBay results as buyers usually gravitate to the lowest priced outliers and sellers to the other extreme.
Since we are on topic, I have a question for everyone using the phone app.... Are the prices really up to date and more accurate? I've always purchased single issues via PDF every other month or so.... if it's more updated on a day to day basis, I would consider getting the app sub.
For example, on my print subs....
October - 1921 Peace Dollar - MS62/63 275/400 Respectively,
September - 1921 Peace Dollar - MS62/63 275/400 Respectively,
February - 1921 Peace Dollar - MS 62/63 275/410 Respectively,
In the real world.... are you guys still trading around these prices? Because, I have been following the 21 Peace Dollar Since late January.... 62s are selling for $400-$500 on GC/HA, even $700+ on Ebay. 63s are even higher at prices ranging from $600-$1000 since the end of January until now. I know the Centenary anniversary is here which may be causing a spike. Are we starting to see it become more a conditional rarity? Anyways, I just want to know how up to date some of the prices are. If the app is better I will go full digital and forgo the print copy. Have you guys noticed the digital keeping up with the market better?
I buy a monthly copy about once or twice a year. Things don't move much, but it gives me a baseline for reference.
Ebay is all BIN, so the prices are generally far higher than the market.
The above prices I mentioned all had long auction timers with 30+ bids. 5 Different 21/Peace/Morgan combos have ended in the past week with an MS62 Peace for over $600. The market on the 21 Peace makes no sense to me right now I guess.
I've always liked and appreciated the CDN Sheet, I've always thought @JohnF did his best to provide the best available and up to date info concerning our hobby. He has certainly been very forthcoming here on the Forum over the years, never shying away from answering any questions posed here.
Nothing's perfect in this World, buy what you like.
Hope everyone is doing well,
boston
@1630Boston said:
I've always liked and appreciated the CDN Sheet, I've always thought @JohnF did his best to provide the best available and up to date info concerning our hobby. He has certainly been very forthcoming here on the Forum over the years, never shying away from answering any questions posed here.
Nothing's perfect in this World, buy what you like.
Hope everyone is doing well,
boston
It’s not a negative reflection on him or his company. The coin market has simply become too fragmented for any guide to really provide a good market snap shot except perhaps on blast white widgets with ample populations to feed the collector base.
@scubafuel said:
Hey John, I think you should raise your prices. Seems pretty cheap for what is provided.
Matt,
How do you think the current bust quarter prices on CDN reflect? Should they raise prices based on the quality of that data?
John M
I know you addressed this to scuba, but their bust quarter quotes are pretty good - I especially like the CAC quotes on the BQ's. HST, that is for your average CAC bust quarter, if toning is involved, pricing can be multiples of the GS CAC quotes. If a rare die marriage, same goes. For the non-CAC GS prices for BQ's, of course, quality of the coin in a grade scales with what you are going to pay. I would think of the GS pricing as a B coin that is dove gray in a given grade, no issues, not the rare die marriages. But the GS is following best I can tell the auction records and from this their BQ prices are a good starting point for valuing them.
@Boosibri said:
I don’t think that the biggest issue that the Greysheet faces is intellectual property sharing.
I totally agree. I suspect that they are seeing a drop in revenue and assume it is the result of sharing, when in fact it is for other reasons. The increase in price, the availability of other more accurate information (auction results), etc.
@JohnF I commend you for coming here and stepping in to the middle of a firestorm. The problem that I have with this whole change is that I did not want a printed copy to begin with and am being forced to take one now because of those changes. I understand the whole data sharing issue and how it effects the bottom line. If I must receive a paper copy, when should I expect to get my first one? Will it be when I renew my subscription, or will it be right away? If it will be when I renew my subscription will I still be able to download the PDF until then? Is there any way that you can do just a digital only subscription? I noticed that you said in a prior response that if you opened the page when you had service/signal that you could still look at it even with no service/signal if you left the page open.
One final question as well. Is there any way that the app can be fixed or programmed to not start over at the main page when the screen on your phone turns off? I have this problem all the time, and when I get back on my phone I have to start all over again to get back to where I was using the app prior to my screen turning off. I appreciate any help, thanks.
Interesting topic.
As someone who USED to purchase the CDN Greysheet before a show (maybe 4-8 times per year), I really appreciated the ability to do so at the last minute, have it available as a digital PDF OR as a printed copy (I don't/didn't have internet/cell reception in some of the venues...and, sometimes, I didn't want to take a laptop/tablet with me and looking on a small phone screen doesn't work for me).
Having worked in the tech industry, for a company that was pirated from left and right, I saw many of the "soluitons" that occurred....I was in the middle of a few of them. Very few of them were done in a way that worked well for the customers.
All were done with revenue in mind.
Nothing wrong with that....no revenue = no business any longer.
HOWEVER, there were eventually some choices made when they noticed a drop in revenue, deemed likely due to the blocking of pirating actually. Seems that some of those pirates were dipping their toes in the water and then eventually becoming paying customers.
Right before I left that company, a decision was made to still charge but also to let go of some of the piracy blockers on certain things. Kind of like drug dealers "giving the first hit for free" type of thinking.
A company will do what it THINKS is best. Sometimes, the leaders are visionaries. Other times, they are myopic and can't see tomorrow past today's bottom line.
Time will tell.
Frankly, I'm surprised that, akin to a solution proposal posted above, the Greysheet doesn't follow a hybrid model.....due what they want to do NOW, for current issues, but, allow BACK issues to be purchased, online, for a nominal price.
Get the next layer of customers something and do it in a way that a number of them will still pay for it, but maybe not as much as the dealers or those collectors who feel they are heavy hitters that are very active, will pay.
Given that I haven't purchased since the new leadership took over, I no longer know the prices, so the following is just an example:
Current subscription:
"Up to date prices" - monthly updates for 1 yr @ $150
Outdated back issues - Jan / April / July / Oct : $5 (or $10) for a PDF....left up for 1 yr (or longer if wanted, as some people want to buy back issues of things/have them, to see trends and previous prices...few people, but some, and if the system is already set up, why not allow it?)
I believe the above is similar to what CDN did prior. Nothing knew about it.
Bottomline is going to be in the finances......what do the owners believe they NEED to make in revenue, while keeping an eye on the expenses, and is the new way of doing it, with the customers they keep/have/get, going to allow them to get there? If not, will they need to keep raising rates and, if so, how many customers will drop off vs how many remain?
Like I said, I have worked for a company that had to make those decisions. One size does not fit all, however, so each leader/company has to figure the best path for themselves.
Right now, it almost seems sad....kind of a "We did this, and we know it doesn't work for everyone, but we don't care...we have our needs and we don't consider yours...." (but "ask nicely"), and then "we know we price this out of reasonable reach for many that are casual collectors, but it really is for dealers and collectors that can afford it (ie..."serious" collectors)".
Hey. I get it. I really do. But, it can seem like a slap in the face in an industry where many hope to bring in new blood, get younger people involved, get new revenue sources. Instead, it seems like the "old guard, keeping out the riffraff".
Good luck to all parties. I understand JohnF's concern (lived similar ones) and I also understand CoinLT's concerns and issues (I would echo many of them).
@morgandollar1878 said: @JohnF I commend you for coming here and stepping in to the middle of a firestorm. The problem that I have with this whole change is that I did not want a printed copy to begin with and am being forced to take one now because of those changes. I understand the whole data sharing issue and how it effects the bottom line. If I must receive a paper copy, when should I expect to get my first one? Will it be when I renew my subscription, or will it be right away? If it will be when I renew my subscription will I still be able to download the PDF until then? Is there any way that you can do just a digital only subscription? I noticed that you said in a prior response that if you opened the page when you had service/signal that you could still look at it even with no service/signal if you left the page open.
Thanks. I don't mind at all representing here and I'm sorry for the inconvenience. If you need a printed copy, please contact our customer support at 757-656-1055 or support@greysheet.com and the ladies will take care of you and answer the specific questions regarding when you will get your first printed issue (if you go that route, etc). As of the March issue, it is no longer an option to download the PDF. We turned off the function for this issue. As far as access to the "viewer" when not on the web, I am told some browsers are friendlier for this than others. Firefox has this functionality, for example. The fact is, if you need the copy offline, you probably should get the printed issues. That's the most logical from what I am hearing from customers.
One final question as well. Is there any way that the app can be fixed or programmed to not start over at the main page when the screen on your phone turns off? I have this problem all the time, and when I get back on my phone I have to start all over again to get back to where I was using the app prior to my screen turning off. I appreciate any help, thanks.
Are you using the latest version of the app, called "GREYSHEET"? We replace the older app called "CDN Pricing Tool" but you will need to delete the old one and download the new one. Here's an easy link to downloads: https://qrco.de/bbzCQD. This new version doesn't lose its place when you reopen it.
John
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
A lot to unpack here but I'll try to address the big picture. Ever since taking over in 2015 it was apparent to me that the PDF download was problematic. But we had a lot of other problems we had to address that took precedence over this latest issue. First we added people's names to the PDF printouts hoping this would induce people not to share, but that didn't make a difference.
We then looked into adding password protection to PDFs but this is really difficult. Obviously, if we just add a password to the PDF everyone who has it just shares the password when they share the PDF. To create a PDF with unique passwords and access control (i.e. print once, etc) means a user would need to download another piece of software, log in to that, etc which would be another user nightmare. Oddly, the PDF system isn't designed for this level of control.
Finally, we started seeing the proliferation of these new periodical viewers which we have implemented. These allow us control over users access from download, sharing, etc. It's still possible to screen shot and print a page, etc and that's fine. But the new version means that if you want a printed copy of the magazine, you will need to subscribe to that.
Of our subscribers, 92% receive either the printed magazine, or a combination package off both the printed and digital access. Of the former, all subscribers to print were automatically upgraded to combination so they could access print and digital at the same subscription level. In essence, we eliminated the "combo" package at a big cost to us. But we felt it was the right thing to do.
Of the remaining, digital-only users, the difference in cost from digital to print is ~50 per year and I gave Billie and her customer service team wide latitude to take care of customers as they call in. We'd prefer to have subscribers upgrade to pay the same price as other print customers, but if you asked nicely, etc (as I've responded in other messages here) they could upgrade you, or get you to renew for a year and throw in the printed copies for the rest of the subscription. Honestly, whatever works is fine with me. Many of the digital subscribers are quite happy with the new viewer access and don't need anything.
I don't like the idea of selling older issues at a discount for three reasons. First, it cannibalizes our current business. But, more importantly, it gives the impression to people that an old issue is almost as good as a current issue. And I don't think this is true at all. We print about 90,000 prices each month and many thousands change EVERY month. I think it's a very bad idea to rely on an older issue because you may miss a price change on a coin you follow. Is it really worth saving $10 to miss a $100 price change? We don't want to advocate this. Third, lowering the price of our publication cheapens its perceived value. We feel the Greysheet is the best pricing guide in the business and we don't want to compete with other guides on price (of the publication). If you want a less expensive price guide, please subscribe to our CPG magazine, or use PCGS's free guide. They are both great resources. The Greysheet is intended for professionals, or buyers who spend a lot on their collections and see the value in subscribing. And we are definitely not cool with people sharing it with non-subscribers. That's unfair to the paying customers, and us.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
Generally speaking, this truism applies. People resist change. A good way to overcome this is to explain changes in advance so that customers understand what is occurring and why. They may still resist or resent the change due to personal impact, but this is inevitable to some degree.
Does anyone remember when this board when through a software change? Seems a distant memory and the issues raised then are long forgotten.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
@coinlieutenant said:
...
Many of you know that I live in Silicon Valley and have had a strange blended career with the Navy, data and tech. If Google were providing the greysheet, I guarantee this publication and its access/billing and everything in between would be vastly different.
Google understands the value of data. They also understand the value of outstanding UI/UX. And they understand scaling.
...
Google is a poor comparison as it has a completely different business model. CDN sells data to consumers. Google collects data from consumers to sell to advertisers. For CDN, the greysheet is the product. For Google, the consumer is the product.
Maybe CDN should embrace that model and collect additional info to sell to coin telemarketers or something and use that revenue to improve access issues...
This is the age of specialization. CDN is not a magazine company who puts out prices. They are not an auction house or grading company that puts out pricing. They are in the coin pricing business full-time and do it collectively better than anyone else.
I use auction archives from various sites which is very helpful but not always practical. The Greysheet is integral to my business and I’d have a very hard time replacing it. It’s worth every bit of its cost to me.
Generally speaking, this truism applies. People resist change. A good way to overcome this is to explain changes in advance so that customers understand what is occurring and why. They may still resist or resent the change due to personal impact, but this is inevitable to some degree.
Does anyone remember when this board when through a software change? Seems a distant memory and the issues raised then are long forgotten.
I think the other truism is that successful companies are the ones that solve their customers problems in the most effective manner. It seems like the CDN is betting that the marginal utility of the Greysheet is greater than the marginal cost for the friction being installed to maintain intellectual property protections. Maybe that is a good bet but in the end it would seem to be that the only thing preventing full disruption to the CDN model is that the economic view isn't worth the climb for those that could do it.
Hey I'm easy....all I'd like to see is a way to expand the historical price chart for a coin in the app the same way you do on the website. I'm fine with the new model. I know it might make things more difficult for people who don't have mobile internet, but let's be honest that's a shrinking number. Also how many of us have already been using our devices to stay on top of precious metal prices on days where thing get a bit volatile in that realm?
Anyway the Greysheet is one of several tools that can be used for pricing. Like most of us I use Greysheet App, Coin Facts, eBay sold, even this forum sometimes (last time I tried FMV I wasn't impressed on the frequency of price updates on stuff like common date silver bags but that may have changed recently)
Comments
I'm really confused. We didn't move the goal posts. We simply changed the way users access their digital copies of the publication. We just changed the way you view your publication but it still works great and many people like it better. We have simultaneously added a free app which also allows access on a smart phone or tablet. But we never promised subscribers that we'd always allow PDF downloads with the ability to freely distribute to anyone they like. We kept that option until we developed technology to deliver the publication better with more security for our IP.
I am truly sorry that you don't like the new access feature, but nearly every print publication I know, that also offers a secure digital version, does it this way. CDN was frankly insane for giving out the PDF. There is no simple way to secure PDFs.
So, if you want a printed magazine now, all we asked of you, or anyone else with the digital-only subscription is to upgrade to the price of print, which is just a few dollars more per month (something like $5). And I told the ladies in customer service that if someone called and asked nicely, they could give it to them at their discretion. This was never intended to be a FREE upgrade to the print subscription. Based on what you wrote here it sounds like you were offered a free upgrade to print as long as you renewed your subscription. I don't understand why you are so upset about this, but there's really nothing else we can do. We simply cannot use the PDF format any longer.
As far as the "ask nicely" part I think that's a reasonable request. Our customer service dept is small and we take a lot of pride in our work, so it takes a terrible toll when people treat our ladies without respect. CDN is not United Airlines, or Cox cable. We're a small company just like you and every other coin dealer and we call all get along quite well if we treat each other with respect. The mention of that should not offend you and I will say no more on this matter.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
So maybe I am misunderstanding. How does one use the service if there is no connectivity? I'm buying a coin collection on a farm in rural Idaho. How do I access the data?
siliconvalleycoins.com
Just open the tab up in your browser viewing the publication and don't close it. It will remain available to you without internet.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
Using the greysheet is like driving a Model T on the Autobahn.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
John, it won't zoom easily at all. Slips all over the place and you have to zoom on each individual page, then zoom out, scroll (clunky as hell) and then rezoom.
I'm on a Mac, but shouldn't this have been tested? You know from your time in this business that time is money.....and when I do use the greysheet, it usually a glance for sanity check or looking up something that I haven't frequently traded.
This IS moving the goalposts. Using the greysheet used to be easy. I never printed it, I just downloaded it and had available on my computer. And even if you shipped it hard copy, how long do you think it would take with the USPS to get issuance on time?
Bottom line: The product for which I have given you money has changed in a way that makes it unusable to me. And to make it usable, you want more money. These are the actions of a company in serious transition rowing upstream of market forces.
No need to respond to this. The interaction is really just solidifying my decision. Thank you for the time. No need for you and I to discuss further.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Your secret squirrel sheet isn't going to help you if you go up against me at an auction & I won't be selling you any of my coins at dreck prices.
My guess is that it's useful on widows & noobs.
My Saint Set
I like Greysheet. Greysheet is useful. I will continue to subscribe to Greysheet. I understand the IP issue.
BUT, this answer really isn't a solution to the customer's problem and I think you can do better.
While you perhaps did not explicitly promise that a pdf would be available for the duration of an annual subscription, the format of the Greysheet was a pdf when we renewed our annual subscription. I really don't think it is good customer service to tell us that you have the right to provide the newsletter in any format you want during the subscription. If you went to an IPhone only format, would we have to all just get an IPhone because you have the right?
Suppose I'm an old paper-only guy and I don't use a computer. Would you consider it within your rights to eliminate paper and go digital only during my subscription without recompense? The fact is that you did change the product during a subscription and I think you could be a little more accommodating to this customer, and others like him.
Your solution - open the tab and keep it open is great IF I know I'm going to be losing internet access. If I suddenly find myself out of range, am I supposed to drive back until I get a cell signal, open it and return, hoping that I don't have to reload the document later because the app gets closed or crashes?
This is not an argument for continuing to allow for pdfs. However, if you have changed the functionality of your publication during the subscription time, I do think you could have provided paper copies for the duration of the subscription. Subscribers could then decide upon renewal whether it still worked for them.
Greysheet is good in a limited number of areas. However, when I look to buy lucite encased Bank of NY fugio cents, grey sheet understandably cannot help me. Same with black NGC slabs, all white label NGC 2.0 and NGC 2.1 slabs, GS again cannot help. Just some examples.
John F. should stand his ground but after a period of 3 months or so, offer a website and print version of retro issues that can freely be shared by all so casual collectors can learn about GS as well as the coin market. It is also useful for certain coins that rarely change prices quickly .
GS used to offer their retro print issues for free at coin shows as a marketing/advertising tool so that ithis is not a big suggestion.
Good luck John F.
Aren't you the same guy who defends the right of MEGA corporations such as PayPal and eBay to change their terms of service whenever they want? Unless Greysheet refuses to provide a prorated refund to anyone who wants to cancel their subscriptions because of the new policies, you're being inconsistent here.
this thread sort of makes me think of attempts to dump the ACA with never a mention of what will replace it. I would ask the OP, what will you now use?? while many dealers and collectors may buy in areas where there are other guides for them to use, the Grey Sheet covers too, too much of the Hobby for it to be abandoned with no replacement.
what will your replacement be?
So now companies have to time policy changes to when a certain subscription ends? I’m sure the fine print states changes and upgrades my commence at any time.
On further reflection I agree with @jmlanzaf in a certain sense. If you are a digital-only subscriber and you need access to the sheet in non-internet areas you should call us and negotiate an upgrade to print. Or we will refund the remainder of your subscription. We would love to develop for an analog world but the future is digital and we’re building for that. But the printed magazine is still awesome IMO. It’s just limited in the amount of data we can publish and the USPS which has been slow lately. Hopefully that will improve.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
Not at all.
Changing terms of service ask you to approve moving forward. They do not affect my paid for subscription. When my cell phone or cable change tends, they do it at the end of my contract. I have NEVER defended the right of a corporation to not provide a service they've been paid for.
CDN has every right to change their offerings in any way they want. However they are obligated to either fulfill the terms of the contract or compensate the other party.
Paypal, Amazon, Visa change terms all the time. They provide notification and allow you to opt out of future use if you wish. If you don't see the difference, then you're just trolling.
That is an excellent solution and I am very glad to hear it.
For that it's worth, I remain a satisfied customer. The world changes and we change with it. Greysheet remains the best price guide for US coins in existence.
Contrary to what you seem to think, I and many others who use CDN don’t do so in order to try to take advantage of sellers. If a buyer is going to try to do that, he doesn’t need the CDN or any other guide as an aid.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Replacements are largely just being active in the market and seeing transactions take place in real time. I watch buys/sells happen dozens of times per day, often times in line with the greysheet, but often times way out of line, both high and low.
Auction records provide quite a bit of data on the market of other less frequently traded meat and potatoes type stuff with its own internal modifications and needed nuanced knowledge of the markets.
And....trust me, I DONT want to lose the reference of the greysheet, because it is, for now at least, a market touchstone because of longevity and familiarity. But if I am going to pay for a publication, which I am happy to remit to @JohnF for his work and effort, it is not unreasonable to ask that the data (which is what he is advocating correctly to protect since it is of value) be:
Many of you know that I live in Silicon Valley and have had a strange blended career with the Navy, data and tech. If Google were providing the greysheet, I guarantee this publication and its access/billing and everything in between would be vastly different.
Google understands the value of data. They also understand the value of outstanding UI/UX. And they understand scaling.
Greysheet has some work to do in these areas.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Hence why I said: Unless Greysheet refuses to provide a prorated refund to anyone who wants to cancel their subscriptions
If they will give you a refund on the unused portion of your subscription, then they are essentially allowing you to "opt out of future use". So what difference am I supposed to be seeing?
I'll let you have the last word as I don't really want to derail this thread further.
I suggested in that message to JohnF that they consider just such compensation. We agree on that. You are the one that seemed to think my asking for such an option was inconsistent with my views on PayPal changing TOS. I maintain, it is completely consistent.
I'm glad we finally agree and you retract your objection. [Implicitly
]
Google has a market cap of almost $2T and hundreds of thousands of contractors and employees. I’m guessing that the graysheet has a market cap of around $2M and maybe a half dozen employees. Of course google can do it better.
You are missing the point. Those are industry practice objectives and their outcomes are not super sensitive to size or access to capital, especially in the mid to long term.
What did you do in the military, how long and what do you do now btw?
siliconvalleycoins.com
Hey John, I think you should raise your prices. Seems pretty cheap for what is provided.
Matt,
How do you think the current bust quarter prices on CDN reflect? Should they raise prices based on the quality of that data?
John M
siliconvalleycoins.com
coinlieutenant: Good to hear from you! It has been a long time since you posted!!
I watch buys/sells happen dozens of times per day, often times in line with the greysheet, but often times way out of line, both high and low.
I think that would be an accurate statement about ANY price guide, so I'm left thinking the GreySheet is performing well, as expected. a guide, any guide, is just that. if it gives me an average and guard-rails to work between it is doing what it's supposed to be doing.
Good to hear from you as well! Seems like a lifetime ago from playing with Morgan Dollars in Baltimore with the Colonel!
Hope all is well out your way.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
You can secure a pdf and prevent them being shared. Of course, then people would complain about having to use a password.
Yes if your setup at a show you will have buyers try talk you down quoting CDN bid. I especially dislike the little know it all low ballers.
I basically ignore this background radiation and quote price that works for me. Many times told them go find one, send them (CDN) a check, that’s lowest consignor will go, do you have one sell me, basically just have fun messing w them (tire kicker trash). There are many in bourse room simply working their angle.
For me many items priced cost plus especially low pop, PQ, super toner, one side is PL, etc so what some price guide says basically a non factor for me especially if item has plus factors. I don’t let price guides inhibit me taking target margin.
Wish I had the business to justify a subscription. Gave it up some time ago.
If there was no CDN, somebody would invent it...
I can see how a PDF format could be abused and often wondered about that issue.
Wonder if your revenues will spike up?
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Personally, I'm not sure the pdf is any more abused than the paper copy. I mean, sure, I could email 1000 copies of the pdf around. But I could also cut the binding off the paper copy and run 1000 paper copies.
Even now, if I really want to be a thief, I can take screenshots of the sheet page by page and create my own pdf.
The internet has made IP hard to protect as well as convincing people that all content should be free. Textbook publishers have this same basic problem which I see all the time in my "regular job".
This has been an interesting conversation. As someone who preferred the "old" webpage and found it much easier to navigate, I had to make adjustments to the new layout and extra navigation required when searching for pricing when going from year to year within a series. In other words, it's much more efficient to search columns and rows than click and click and click. Nonetheless, others clearly seem to prefer the more modern layout and the way the information is currently accessed.
Please understand, while the future is digital, that does not mean the future must be constant Internet access. You can still have a digital product, but not require access to the Internet to use. Adobe Acrobat can create password-enabled documents that do not allow printing. Thus the digital information is available on your device whenever you need it and the IP is not shared through copying.
On a final note ... your staff is very polite and has always been helpful. They are an asset to your company!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I would like to second the compliment to the staff. They have always been very polite and very helpful and promptly handled my renewals.
I've used CDN for over 40 years and will continue to do so.
I prefer print copy as I am not tech savvy at all.
Sure, it has its limitations, but it is a very useful pricing tool and at the very least gives a starting point for any negotiations.
I dislike using eBay results as buyers usually gravitate to the lowest priced outliers and sellers to the other extreme.
Since we are on topic, I have a question for everyone using the phone app.... Are the prices really up to date and more accurate? I've always purchased single issues via PDF every other month or so.... if it's more updated on a day to day basis, I would consider getting the app sub.
For example, on my print subs....
October - 1921 Peace Dollar - MS62/63 275/400 Respectively,
September - 1921 Peace Dollar - MS62/63 275/400 Respectively,
February - 1921 Peace Dollar - MS 62/63 275/410 Respectively,
In the real world.... are you guys still trading around these prices? Because, I have been following the 21 Peace Dollar Since late January.... 62s are selling for $400-$500 on GC/HA, even $700+ on Ebay. 63s are even higher at prices ranging from $600-$1000 since the end of January until now. I know the Centenary anniversary is here which may be causing a spike. Are we starting to see it become more a conditional rarity? Anyways, I just want to know how up to date some of the prices are. If the app is better I will go full digital and forgo the print copy. Have you guys noticed the digital keeping up with the market better?
I buy a monthly copy about once or twice a year. Things don't move much, but it gives me a baseline for reference.
Ebay is all BIN, so the prices are generally far higher than the market.
The above prices I mentioned all had long auction timers with 30+ bids. 5 Different 21/Peace/Morgan combos have ended in the past week with an MS62 Peace for over $600. The market on the 21 Peace makes no sense to me right now I guess.
What took so long?
I've always liked and appreciated the CDN Sheet, I've always thought @JohnF did his best to provide the best available and up to date info concerning our hobby. He has certainly been very forthcoming here on the Forum over the years, never shying away from answering any questions posed here.
Nothing's perfect in this World, buy what you like.
Hope everyone is doing well,
boston
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
It’s not a negative reflection on him or his company. The coin market has simply become too fragmented for any guide to really provide a good market snap shot except perhaps on blast white widgets with ample populations to feed the collector base.
I know you addressed this to scuba, but their bust quarter quotes are pretty good - I especially like the CAC quotes on the BQ's. HST, that is for your average CAC bust quarter, if toning is involved, pricing can be multiples of the GS CAC quotes. If a rare die marriage, same goes. For the non-CAC GS prices for BQ's, of course, quality of the coin in a grade scales with what you are going to pay. I would think of the GS pricing as a B coin that is dove gray in a given grade, no issues, not the rare die marriages. But the GS is following best I can tell the auction records and from this their BQ prices are a good starting point for valuing them.
Best, SH
I totally agree. I suspect that they are seeing a drop in revenue and assume it is the result of sharing, when in fact it is for other reasons. The increase in price, the availability of other more accurate information (auction results), etc.
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@JohnF I commend you for coming here and stepping in to the middle of a firestorm. The problem that I have with this whole change is that I did not want a printed copy to begin with and am being forced to take one now because of those changes. I understand the whole data sharing issue and how it effects the bottom line. If I must receive a paper copy, when should I expect to get my first one? Will it be when I renew my subscription, or will it be right away? If it will be when I renew my subscription will I still be able to download the PDF until then? Is there any way that you can do just a digital only subscription? I noticed that you said in a prior response that if you opened the page when you had service/signal that you could still look at it even with no service/signal if you left the page open.
One final question as well. Is there any way that the app can be fixed or programmed to not start over at the main page when the screen on your phone turns off? I have this problem all the time, and when I get back on my phone I have to start all over again to get back to where I was using the app prior to my screen turning off. I appreciate any help, thanks.
Interesting topic.
As someone who USED to purchase the CDN Greysheet before a show (maybe 4-8 times per year), I really appreciated the ability to do so at the last minute, have it available as a digital PDF OR as a printed copy (I don't/didn't have internet/cell reception in some of the venues...and, sometimes, I didn't want to take a laptop/tablet with me and looking on a small phone screen doesn't work for me).
Having worked in the tech industry, for a company that was pirated from left and right, I saw many of the "soluitons" that occurred....I was in the middle of a few of them. Very few of them were done in a way that worked well for the customers.
All were done with revenue in mind.
Nothing wrong with that....no revenue = no business any longer.
HOWEVER, there were eventually some choices made when they noticed a drop in revenue, deemed likely due to the blocking of pirating actually. Seems that some of those pirates were dipping their toes in the water and then eventually becoming paying customers.
Right before I left that company, a decision was made to still charge but also to let go of some of the piracy blockers on certain things. Kind of like drug dealers "giving the first hit for free" type of thinking.
A company will do what it THINKS is best. Sometimes, the leaders are visionaries. Other times, they are myopic and can't see tomorrow past today's bottom line.
Time will tell.
Frankly, I'm surprised that, akin to a solution proposal posted above, the Greysheet doesn't follow a hybrid model.....due what they want to do NOW, for current issues, but, allow BACK issues to be purchased, online, for a nominal price.
Get the next layer of customers something and do it in a way that a number of them will still pay for it, but maybe not as much as the dealers or those collectors who feel they are heavy hitters that are very active, will pay.
Given that I haven't purchased since the new leadership took over, I no longer know the prices, so the following is just an example:
Current subscription:
"Up to date prices" - monthly updates for 1 yr @ $150
Outdated back issues - Jan / April / July / Oct : $5 (or $10) for a PDF....left up for 1 yr (or longer if wanted, as some people want to buy back issues of things/have them, to see trends and previous prices...few people, but some, and if the system is already set up, why not allow it?)
I believe the above is similar to what CDN did prior. Nothing knew about it.
Bottomline is going to be in the finances......what do the owners believe they NEED to make in revenue, while keeping an eye on the expenses, and is the new way of doing it, with the customers they keep/have/get, going to allow them to get there? If not, will they need to keep raising rates and, if so, how many customers will drop off vs how many remain?
Like I said, I have worked for a company that had to make those decisions. One size does not fit all, however, so each leader/company has to figure the best path for themselves.
Right now, it almost seems sad....kind of a "We did this, and we know it doesn't work for everyone, but we don't care...we have our needs and we don't consider yours...." (but "ask nicely"), and then "we know we price this out of reasonable reach for many that are casual collectors, but it really is for dealers and collectors that can afford it (ie..."serious" collectors)".
Hey. I get it. I really do. But, it can seem like a slap in the face in an industry where many hope to bring in new blood, get younger people involved, get new revenue sources. Instead, it seems like the "old guard, keeping out the riffraff".
Good luck to all parties. I understand JohnF's concern (lived similar ones) and I also understand CoinLT's concerns and issues (I would echo many of them).
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Thanks. I don't mind at all representing here and I'm sorry for the inconvenience. If you need a printed copy, please contact our customer support at 757-656-1055 or support@greysheet.com and the ladies will take care of you and answer the specific questions regarding when you will get your first printed issue (if you go that route, etc). As of the March issue, it is no longer an option to download the PDF. We turned off the function for this issue. As far as access to the "viewer" when not on the web, I am told some browsers are friendlier for this than others. Firefox has this functionality, for example. The fact is, if you need the copy offline, you probably should get the printed issues. That's the most logical from what I am hearing from customers.
Are you using the latest version of the app, called "GREYSHEET"? We replace the older app called "CDN Pricing Tool" but you will need to delete the old one and download the new one. Here's an easy link to downloads: https://qrco.de/bbzCQD. This new version doesn't lose its place when you reopen it.
John
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
A lot to unpack here but I'll try to address the big picture. Ever since taking over in 2015 it was apparent to me that the PDF download was problematic. But we had a lot of other problems we had to address that took precedence over this latest issue. First we added people's names to the PDF printouts hoping this would induce people not to share, but that didn't make a difference.
We then looked into adding password protection to PDFs but this is really difficult. Obviously, if we just add a password to the PDF everyone who has it just shares the password when they share the PDF. To create a PDF with unique passwords and access control (i.e. print once, etc) means a user would need to download another piece of software, log in to that, etc which would be another user nightmare. Oddly, the PDF system isn't designed for this level of control.
Finally, we started seeing the proliferation of these new periodical viewers which we have implemented. These allow us control over users access from download, sharing, etc. It's still possible to screen shot and print a page, etc and that's fine. But the new version means that if you want a printed copy of the magazine, you will need to subscribe to that.
Of our subscribers, 92% receive either the printed magazine, or a combination package off both the printed and digital access. Of the former, all subscribers to print were automatically upgraded to combination so they could access print and digital at the same subscription level. In essence, we eliminated the "combo" package at a big cost to us. But we felt it was the right thing to do.
Of the remaining, digital-only users, the difference in cost from digital to print is ~50 per year and I gave Billie and her customer service team wide latitude to take care of customers as they call in. We'd prefer to have subscribers upgrade to pay the same price as other print customers, but if you asked nicely, etc (as I've responded in other messages here) they could upgrade you, or get you to renew for a year and throw in the printed copies for the rest of the subscription. Honestly, whatever works is fine with me. Many of the digital subscribers are quite happy with the new viewer access and don't need anything.
I don't like the idea of selling older issues at a discount for three reasons. First, it cannibalizes our current business. But, more importantly, it gives the impression to people that an old issue is almost as good as a current issue. And I don't think this is true at all. We print about 90,000 prices each month and many thousands change EVERY month. I think it's a very bad idea to rely on an older issue because you may miss a price change on a coin you follow. Is it really worth saving $10 to miss a $100 price change? We don't want to advocate this. Third, lowering the price of our publication cheapens its perceived value. We feel the Greysheet is the best pricing guide in the business and we don't want to compete with other guides on price (of the publication). If you want a less expensive price guide, please subscribe to our CPG magazine, or use PCGS's free guide. They are both great resources. The Greysheet is intended for professionals, or buyers who spend a lot on their collections and see the value in subscribing. And we are definitely not cool with people sharing it with non-subscribers.
That's unfair to the paying customers, and us.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
A good response explanation John.
Generally speaking, this truism applies. People resist change. A good way to overcome this is to explain changes in advance so that customers understand what is occurring and why. They may still resist or resent the change due to personal impact, but this is inevitable to some degree.
Does anyone remember when this board when through a software change? Seems a distant memory and the issues raised then are long forgotten.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Google is a poor comparison as it has a completely different business model. CDN sells data to consumers. Google collects data from consumers to sell to advertisers. For CDN, the greysheet is the product. For Google, the consumer is the product.
Maybe CDN should embrace that model and collect additional info to sell to coin telemarketers or something and use that revenue to improve access issues...
This is the age of specialization. CDN is not a magazine company who puts out prices. They are not an auction house or grading company that puts out pricing. They are in the coin pricing business full-time and do it collectively better than anyone else.
I use auction archives from various sites which is very helpful but not always practical. The Greysheet is integral to my business and I’d have a very hard time replacing it. It’s worth every bit of its cost to me.
I think the other truism is that successful companies are the ones that solve their customers problems in the most effective manner. It seems like the CDN is betting that the marginal utility of the Greysheet is greater than the marginal cost for the friction being installed to maintain intellectual property protections. Maybe that is a good bet but in the end it would seem to be that the only thing preventing full disruption to the CDN model is that the economic view isn't worth the climb for those that could do it.
Latin American Collection
Hey I'm easy....all I'd like to see is a way to expand the historical price chart for a coin in the app the same way you do on the website. I'm fine with the new model. I know it might make things more difficult for people who don't have mobile internet, but let's be honest that's a shrinking number. Also how many of us have already been using our devices to stay on top of precious metal prices on days where thing get a bit volatile in that realm?
Anyway the Greysheet is one of several tools that can be used for pricing. Like most of us I use Greysheet App, Coin Facts, eBay sold, even this forum sometimes (last time I tried FMV I wasn't impressed on the frequency of price updates on stuff like common date silver bags but that may have changed recently)
It is there back to 2013 in the new app called "Greysheet."