@Mgarmy said:
Likewise if somebody like Dr. Fauci or several MD forum members say “hey probably good idea to do x,” going to follow that advice as well. Stay safe
Fauci? The same one who has taken literally every position on masks in the past year, ranging from being adamantly opposed to people wearing them to telling people to wear two?
I wear a mask, social distance, and I do not touch anything in public that I have not wiped down with a sanitizing wipe. And if something of mine, such as a credit card, is in contact with something I could not wipe down, then I wipe that down before I bring it back into my bubble.
I take the best precautions I feel are helpful in any way, but I do not blindly listen to anyone. There are still too many unknowns for anyone to have all the answers.
Coin shows have not been a concern of mine, but cashing in coins and then getting new ones at the banks has been a major problem that I am anxious to see resolved.
As I understand it, "they" can't say if the vaccine prevents contagion, prevents symptoms, and/or provides immunity. Whatever effectiveness they assert, "they" can't say if it's short term, long term or lifelong. "They" can't say if you need boosters or different vaccines for newer "variants". Then there is the issue of new vaccine technology and possible side-effects...I'll decline.
All of those who do not believe in science can stay home and buy coins from eBay and dealer websites while the rest of us will get back to normal.
Thank you for the work you do on the front lines.
I believe in science, but like many or most people, this is not the issue. It has become some kind of purity test.
Science tells me that people who eat red meat are more likely to have high cholesterol and in turn more likely to have heart disease. I had beef stew for lunch.
Science tells me that eating sugary foods and being overweight can lead to diabetes and other health risk factors. I'm in fair shape, but I eat sugar.
Science tells us that smoking cigarettes can cause lung cancer. It's even on every box, yet everyday millions of people smoke cigarettes. Now in some places they are in front of the line for vaccines because they are at higher risk. Due to a choice that they make daily that negatively affects them and others.
Life is about weighing the risks all around us. Sure Covid may be different. But millions more people have gotten sick and recovered than those that have died. People will weigh the risk to them when they decide whether or not to get the vaccine. Risk of side effects vs not being able to get on a plane etc. But there are many many other things that we do that affect other people negatively. Even put other peoples lives at risk. Now with Covid, if you choose not to get a vaccine or wear a mask you are some kind of crazy science denier. The internet has become a place to try and shame others into submission.
"I follow the science" is a ridiculous statement meant to make people feel good about themselves, make others look silly or shame them into submission.
It should be "I follow the science (when it lines up with my current belief on this particular subject"
PS. Let me take some wind out of the sails of those forum grammar police. I have no idea if I using affect or effect was correct, but don't really care either. Flame on.
The fauci mask arguement is disingenuous at best. He said early on unless your are a first responder respirators were not needed. Why? Because the hospital staff needed them and the national inventory was shot. Sometimes you gotta dig deeper than the headline. But like has been said multiple times, do what you want as long as it does not effect anybody else.
To those that have been on the front lines...thank you
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No one (at least most people) aren't getting vaccinated out of "blind faith." They're getting vaccinated out of personal calculus. Whether or not one dies of Covid "because they had some underlying condition" and/or would have died "anyway" (no one's said that here, but I've heard it said), it's pretty clear that Covid's a ghastly way to die. My own calculus is that I'm 75 and I'd rather die some other way. I'm betting that vaccination makes that a lot less likely. Yeah, faith. But hardly "blind."
Dpoole- hope we don’t have to wait all the way till then! Fingers crossed.
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@Mgarmy said:
The fauci mask arguement is disingenuous at best. He said early on unless your are a first responder respirators were not needed. Why? Because the hospital staff needed them and the national inventory was shot. Sometimes you gotta dig deeper than the headline. But like has been said multiple times, do what you want as long as it does not effect anybody else.
To those that have been on the front lines...thank you
That's not exactly accurate. Of course it is no longer March so there's not much point in clinging to March 2020 guidance. But, to be accurate...
Later, after the guidance changed, he said that he had made the statement because he was trying to preserve the supply for first responders. But he did not include that fact in the original statement.
"Fauci first spoke about the wearing of masks amid the COVID-19 pandemic during a March interview with 60 Minutes.
"Right now, in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks," Fauci said during the interview. "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask."
He continued, "When you're in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it's not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is.""
All of those who do not believe in science can stay home and buy coins from eBay and dealer websites while the rest of us will get back to normal.
Thank you for the work you do on the front lines.
I believe in science, but like many or most people, this is not the issue. It has become some kind of purity test.
Science tells me that people who eat red meat are more likely to have high cholesterol and in turn more likely to have heart disease. I had beef stew for lunch.
Science tells me that eating sugary foods and being overweight can lead to diabetes and other health risk factors. I'm in fair shape, but I eat sugar.
Science tells us that smoking cigarettes can cause lung cancer. It's even on every box, yet everyday millions of people smoke cigarettes. Now in some places they are in front of the line for vaccines because they are at higher risk. Due to a choice that they make daily that negatively affects them and others.
Life is about weighing the risks all around us. Sure Covid may be different. But millions more people have gotten sick and recovered than those that have died. People will weigh the risk to them when they decide whether or not to get the vaccine. Risk of side effects vs not being able to get on a plane etc. But there are many many other things that we do that affect other people negatively. Even put other peoples lives at risk. Now with Covid, if you choose not to get a vaccine or wear a mask you are some kind of crazy science denier. The internet has become a place to try and shame others into submission.
"I follow the science" is a ridiculous statement meant to make people feel good about themselves, make others look silly or shame them into submission.
It should be "I follow the science (when it lines up with my current belief on this particular subject"
PS. Let me take some wind out of the sails of those forum grammar police. I have no idea if I using affect or effect was correct, but don't really care either. Flame on.
Eating red meat or sugar and smoking tobacco (out of range of others) doesn't have consequences for anyone but yourself, whereas not getting a Covid-19 vaccine potentially does.
As RYK and others have pointed out, no one is shaming you or forcing you to take the vaccine. Just don't expect to be welcomed into public social gatherings until you do.
Good science is always being revised and updated, sometimes even reversed.
This aspect of the process of science is being latched onto and used as evidence to discredit the entire field and process. This is a big problem!
Those of us working on the front lines in high risk environments have NEVER discounted the value of masks.
It was the details of types of masks and political dancing that Dr. Fauci was being dragged into that muddied the waters!
There is a great deal of variation in the effectiveness of different mask types and proper fitting.
Masking the public is just one tool of many that were utilized in an overall effort to slow the exponential growth of this virus spread through our population. Recall initially, there was great concern of overwhelming our healthcare systems. This is STILL a concern for many.
To those that admit all these efforts with masks and vaccines are hopeless and that we might just as well allow this thing to run its natural course, I applaud your honesty.
Your approach however is a slap in the face to those trying to save lives.
The whole idea was to “flatten the exponential curve” and spare our healthcare systems from being overwhelmed.
If those of you that might refuse to do their part by just wearing a little mask, can’t even do that, in a modest effort to help their fellow citizens, then perhaps they might kindly agree to crawling under some dark bush next time they get really sick...
Deal?
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
That is correct. Fauci at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, said masks were not recommended for the general public, as authorities were trying to prevent a mask shortage for health workers and the extent of asymptomatic spread was unknown. But he Was not clear as to why and dumbed down his explanation. Early on he also placed greater emphasis on fomite transmission route which we now know is not the primary means of transmission. Thus the people fiddling with their mask and then touching their eyes mouth nose etc. part of his explanation.
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Eating red meat or sugar and smoking tobacco (out of range of others) doesn't have consequences for anyone but yourself, whereas not getting a Covid-19 vaccine potentially does.
As RYK and others have pointed out, no one is shaming you or forcing you to take the vaccine. Just don't expect to be welcomed into public social gatherings until you do.
You have never heard of second hand smoke and the danger of that? As an interesting side note the health care industry is well known for the high number of smokers that work in that industry.
Eating red meat or sugar and smoking tobacco (out of range of others) doesn't have consequences for anyone but yourself, whereas not getting a Covid-19 vaccine potentially does.
As RYK and others have pointed out, no one is shaming you or forcing you to take the vaccine. Just don't expect to be welcomed into public social gatherings until you do.
You have never heard of second hand smoke and the danger of that? As an interesting side note the health care industry is well known for the high number of smokers that work in that industry.
Let me repost for your benefit:
Eating red meat or sugar and smoking tobacco (OUT OF RANGE OF OTHERS) doesn't have consequences for anyone but yourself, whereas not getting a Covid-19 vaccine potentially does.
Eating red meat or sugar and smoking tobacco (out of range of others) doesn't have consequences for anyone but yourself, whereas not getting a Covid-19 vaccine potentially does.
As RYK and others have pointed out, no one is shaming you or forcing you to take the vaccine. Just don't expect to be welcomed into public social gatherings until you do.
But you are wrong. Me keeling over from a heart attack does have consequences for others. And the smoking tobacco out of range of others. How far away is out of range of others? In an apartment building where I'm smoking in my apartment, but others share the same ventilation system? If I'm in a casino and they have a smoking section that is in the middle of the same room I'm in but it's roped off? Is that out of range? So if I'm 6.5' away from you do I still need a mask since social distancing guidelines say at least 6'. Or if there are 6 of us at a dinner table instead of 5. Are we all now at more risk than we were before #6 showed up to our table?
And FWIW I wear a mask whenever I am indoors with others (outside of my home) and when I am at work.
And even when the Gov. of my state said that we had to make reservations to dine at a restaurant instead of just walking in.(because apparently Covid doesn't like people without reservations) I complied.
And I've even been to a coin show or two. Took a table at one.
And I'm not ashamed at all. I'm merely pointing out that some people who choose to "Follow the Science" have some level of superiority complex and feel that others that don't want to believe the liars on TV's every words are crazies.
Eating red meat or sugar and smoking tobacco (OUT OF RANGE OF OTHERS) doesn't have consequences for anyone but yourself, whereas not getting a Covid-19 vaccine potentially does.
Hopefully that clarifies things for you.
Just how far does someone need to be for it to qualify as out of range? the last time I had the need to visit a hospital just outside the entrance there were a number of medical professionals puffing away and I had to hold my breath so as not to inhale their cancer causing secondhand smoke. Smoke from large fires has been known to affect the air quality in other states, just looking for clarification from those of you here that know the science.
Eating red meat or sugar and smoking tobacco (out of range of others) doesn't have consequences for anyone but yourself, whereas not getting a Covid-19 vaccine potentially does.
As RYK and others have pointed out, no one is shaming you or forcing you to take the vaccine. Just don't expect to be welcomed into public social gatherings until you do.
You have never heard of second hand smoke and the danger of that? As an interesting side note the health care industry is well known for the high number of smokers that work in that industry.
The healthcare industry that I work in has a much proportionally lower number number of smokers than the general public. Not sure what planet you hail from? RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Since I’m on a roll here....
Allow me to share one little story that might cheer up the survivor the fittest among us, and perhaps be thought provoking to some that might question the high numbers of fatalities here in the US.
I have a friend working in a rehab medicine facility in a smaller community. Last March, she got sick, as did her elderly mother, her husband and her children as well as many of the residents of the facility she worked at. She was very sick for three plus weeks and because she was a front line health care provider, was able to get tested for COVID-19. She tested positive.
Her elderly mother was not able to get tested, nor were ANY of the residents of that facility.
Within the course of about one month 50 of the 70 residents of that facility DIED!
NONE of them were tested for COVID. None of them are reflected in the formal statistics.
My friend was the only one tested because she was a front line Healh Care worker.
Then, this facility had to lay off most of their staff due to low patient census.
Good times were had by all!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Great debate...
There are probably some warnings on the way, but they will be mild... so far, imho.
Hope we don't lose anyone to covid topic this way, just talking about it.
I'm doing "all the things" like most, and waiting my turn for the shot.
@derryb said:
Not wanting the vaccine at this point is not a matter of doubting the ruthlessness of the virus. It is a matter of doubting the safety of the vaccine.
The real shame here is those who are quick to persecute and stereotype those who question the safety of the vaccine. The shame is on you. Disagreeing with you is not a tin foil offense. Going fast in this country are the days when different opinions were simply. . . different opinions. Seems everyone today is 100% on the right side or 100% on the wrong side. And that is pathetic. Quite frankly its anti-freedom.
Your freedom ends when it affects my right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness... You are not free to drive 140 mph on the highway because it poses a safety risk to others. Society does not care if you flatten your car against a median, but it does care if, on the way to the median, you take out a minivan with a family driving down the highway at 60 mph, in the correct lane, and minding their own business.
As far as I am concerned, you can drink a case of beer everyday, smoke a carton of cigarettes everyday, buy your coins in NGC slabs, or whatever. Knock yourself out. Just don’t engage in behavior that puts others around you at risk of illness or injury. It’s not that complicated and really not all that limiting.
I would buy anybody on this forum
A beer. Except jd..he strikes me as a single
Malt type.
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Not wanting the vaccine at this point is not a matter of doubting the ruthlessness of the virus. It is a matter of doubting the safety of the vaccine.
Also, another reason for not getting the vaccine is people who are very healthy with no underlying health conditions are practically at a 'zero' chance of dyeing.
I would assume most young, healthy people aren't too anxious about getting the vaccine.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
@derryb said:
Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me what fear can do to people. Laws are designed to protect us from those who may harm us. Where we don't have laws should we let fear rule the land?
You know what's just as annoying as people supposedly getting shamed for not believing in science: calling people cowards when they may actually just be compassionate and/or sensible.
@derryb said:
Not wanting the vaccine at this point is not a matter of doubting the ruthlessness of the virus. It is a matter of doubting the safety of the vaccine.
The real shame here is those who are quick to persecute and stereotype those who question the safety of the vaccine. The shame is on you. Disagreeing with you is not a tin foil offense. Going fast in this country are the days when different opinions were simply. . . different opinions. Seems everyone today is 100% on the right side or 100% on the wrong side. And that is pathetic. Quite frankly its anti-freedom.
Your freedom ends when it affects my right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness... You are not free to drive 140 mph on the highway because it poses a safety risk to others. Society does not care if you flatten your car against a median, but it does care if, on the way to the median, you take out a minivan with a family driving down the highway at 60 mph, in the correct lane, and minding their own business.
As far as I am concerned, you can drink a case of beer everyday, smoke a carton of cigarettes everyday, buy your coins in NGC slabs, or whatever. Knock yourself out. Just don’t engage in behavior that puts others around you at risk of illness or injury. It’s not that complicated and really not all that limiting.
But there is my argument.
Many people do drive 140mph, drink a few beers and drive home, put their coins in NGC slabs and otherwise put people at risk or in harms way all the time. Then get on internet forums and call people who are not 100% sure they want to get a vaccine science deniers and blame them for spreading this virus.
Disclaimer: not saying you personally were doing that, but it seems to be the sentiment sometimes.
Not wanting the vaccine at this point is not a matter of doubting the ruthlessness of the virus. It is a matter of doubting the safety of the vaccine.
Also, another reason for not getting the vaccine is people who are very healthy with no underlying health conditions are practically at a 'zero' chance of dyeing.
I would assume most young, healthy people aren't too anxious about getting the vaccine.
I could continue the discussion and tell you about a formerly healthy 29 year old who was just discharged from my hospital after spending three months in the ICU, has no memory of anything that happened between November and last week, has months of recovery ahead, who knows what long term sequelae, but he didn’t die, so it’s all good! (Every decent size hospital in the country has numerous similar stories.) But I won’t bother. 😉
@derryb said:
Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me what fear can do to people. Laws are designed to protect us from those who may harm us. Where we don't have laws should we let fear rule the land?
You know what's just as annoying as people supposedly getting shamed for not believing in science: calling people cowards when they may actually just be compassionate and/or sensible.
Now if we don't want to get a vaccine we are not sensible or compassionate. Thanks!
Edited to add the emoji before someone gets too upset.
@derryb said:
Not wanting the vaccine at this point is not a matter of doubting the ruthlessness of the virus. It is a matter of doubting the safety of the vaccine.
The real shame here is those who are quick to persecute and stereotype those who question the safety of the vaccine. The shame is on you. Disagreeing with you is not a tin foil offense. Going fast in this country are the days when different opinions were simply. . . different opinions. Seems everyone today is 100% on the right side or 100% on the wrong side. And that is pathetic. Quite frankly its anti-freedom.
Your freedom ends when it affects my right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness... You are not free to drive 140 mph on the highway because it poses a safety risk to others. Society does not care if you flatten your car against a median, but it does care if, on the way to the median, you take out a minivan with a family driving down the highway at 60 mph, in the correct lane, and minding their own business.
As far as I am concerned, you can drink a case of beer everyday, smoke a carton of cigarettes everyday, buy your coins in NGC slabs, or whatever. Knock yourself out. Just don’t engage in behavior that puts others around you at risk of illness or injury. It’s not that complicated and really not all that limiting.
Oh for that rarest of humans - a doctor with humility. Certainly not found here.
The individuals who have been forced to abandon their businesses, incomes, assets, and abilities to provide for their families is quite a bit more complicated and limiting than you dismiss with nary a thought.
What Covid and these times has demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt is that government's role must be advisory, not dictatorial.
@derryb said:
Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me what fear can do to people. Laws are designed to protect us from those who may harm us. Where we don't have laws should we let fear rule the land?
You know what's just as annoying as people supposedly getting shamed for not believing in science: calling people cowards when they may actually just be compassionate and/or sensible.
Fear of the virus does not make one a coward. As shown in this thread it clouds their objectiveness.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
@derryb said:
Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me what fear can do to people. Laws are designed to protect us from those who may harm us. Where we don't have laws should we let fear rule the land?
You know what's just as annoying as people supposedly getting shamed for not believing in science: calling people cowards when they may actually just be compassionate and/or sensible.
Now if we don't want to get a vaccine we are not sensible or compassionate. Thanks!
Edited to add the emoji before someone gets too upset.
Fer Chrissakes, will you please think before you post? I was referring to insinuations by derryb about people who support vaccinations. It wasn't a jab at you or anybody else who doesn't want the vaccine.
Well you are really not gonna like what is coming down the proverbial road b/c covid vaccinations are going to be mandatory for a whole bunch of stuff. Folks will have the freedom to not take them and industry will have the freedom to not serve them etc. sort of like seatbelt laws. Does not matter if you don’t like them or agree with them. As for governments role..same old arguments were made during small pox and 1918 flu. States have the ability as does the fed to mandate for public health. Again don’t have to like it. Don’t even have to follow it but failure to do so will come with its own set of good times
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@derryb said:
Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me what fear can do to people. Laws are designed to protect us from those who may harm us. Where we don't have laws should we let fear rule the land?
You know what's just as annoying as people supposedly getting shamed for not believing in science: calling people cowards when they may actually just be compassionate and/or sensible.
Fear of the virus does not make one a coward. As shown in this thread it clouds their objectiveness.
@CoinJunkie said:
I was referring to insinuations by derryb about people who support vaccinations. It wasn't a jab at you or anybody else who doesn't want the vaccine.
I have insinuated nothing about people who support getting a vaccination. I have insinuated a few things about those who profit from it or attempt to force it on others.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
The healthcare industry that I work in has a much proportionally lower number number of smokers than the general public. Not sure what planet you hail from? RGDS!
O the hypocrisy, do you hail from Mars? Because if you live on the planet Earth then you are part of the healthcare industry here, and the stats are that over 18% of doctors smoke. That rate is closer to 28% for lower level healthcare workers, feel free to educate yourself as Google is your friend.
@derryb said:
Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me what fear can do to people. Laws are designed to protect us from those who may harm us. Where we don't have laws should we let fear rule the land?
You know what's just as annoying as people supposedly getting shamed for not believing in science: calling people cowards when they may actually just be compassionate and/or sensible.
Fear of the virus does not make one a coward. As shown in this thread it clouds their objectiveness.
Objectiveness as calibrated to how closely it matches to your opinion ?
@derryb said:
Not wanting the vaccine at this point is not a matter of doubting the ruthlessness of the virus. It is a matter of doubting the safety of the vaccine.
The real shame here is those who are quick to persecute and stereotype those who question the safety of the vaccine. The shame is on you. Disagreeing with you is not a tin foil offense. Going fast in this country are the days when different opinions were simply. . . different opinions. Seems everyone today is 100% on the right side or 100% on the wrong side. And that is pathetic. Quite frankly its anti-freedom.
Your freedom ends when it affects my right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness... You are not free to drive 140 mph on the highway because it poses a safety risk to others. Society does not care if you flatten your car against a median, but it does care if, on the way to the median, you take out a minivan with a family driving down the highway at 60 mph, in the correct lane, and minding their own business.
As far as I am concerned, you can drink a case of beer everyday, smoke a carton of cigarettes everyday, buy your coins in NGC slabs, or whatever. Knock yourself out. Just don’t engage in behavior that puts others around you at risk of illness or injury. It’s not that complicated and really not all that limiting.
Oh for that rarest of humans - a doctor with humility. Certainly not found here.
The individuals who have been forced to abandon their businesses, incomes, assets, and abilities to provide for their families is quite a bit more complicated and limiting than you dismiss with nary a thought.
What Covid and these times has demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt is that government's role must be advisory, not dictatorial.
Oh for that rarest of humans -a coin person who cared about anything but money. Not here! 😉
I am done here. Best of luck and best of health to all!
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. . . or blind faith. I think of myself as someone who makes personal decisions such as a vaccine on what I know, not on what people who I don't trust tell me. Blind faith leads lemmings over the cliff. Mistrust is not wrapped in tin foil; it is learned behavior.
The FACT that the makers of vaccines (that will create record profits) are immune from liability should serve as your first red flag. But then again, blind faith prevents one from seeing red flags.
I will continue to wear a mask to coin shows and into coin shops until it gets to the point that official papers are required to enter.
So are the vaccine makers of IPV (polio), MMRV, and other vaccines. There is a vaccination compensation fund set up by Congress. Would you have your children or grandchildren skip those?
I'm considered essential so...
Yea, basically, they gave us a few scraps of fabric and told us to get back to work while they hid in their houses.
Most all of us got sick.
[cough-cough]
Now they want me to get a shot so they feel safe to come out and play.
@derryb said:
Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me what fear can do to people. Laws are designed to protect us from those who may harm us. Where we don't have laws should we let fear rule the land?
You know what's just as annoying as people supposedly getting shamed for not believing in science: calling people cowards when they may actually just be compassionate and/or sensible.
Fear of the virus does not make one a coward. As shown in this thread it clouds their objectiveness.
Objectiveness as calibrated to how closely it matches to your opinion ?
Objectiveness as calibrated to how closely one respect the rights of another to make his/her own decisions.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
I will avoid those who don't wear masks like the plague
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Eating red meat or sugar and smoking tobacco (out of range of others) doesn't have consequences for anyone but yourself, whereas not getting a Covid-19 vaccine potentially does.
As RYK and others have pointed out, no one is shaming you or forcing you to take the vaccine. Just don't expect to be welcomed into public social gatherings until you do.
You have never heard of second hand smoke and the danger of that? As an interesting side note the health care industry is well known for the high number of smokers that work in that industry.
Let me repost for your benefit:
Eating red meat or sugar and smoking tobacco (OUT OF RANGE OF OTHERS) doesn't have consequences for anyone but yourself, whereas not getting a Covid-19 vaccine potentially does.
Hopefully that clarifies things for you.
You want me to eat my red meat out of the range of others????
So are the vaccine makers of IPV (polio), MMRV, and other vaccines. There is a vaccination compensation fund set up by Congress. Would you have your children or grandchildren skip those?
Yes, until proven SAFE and EFFECTIVE I would not recommend any vaccine to anyone.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
@derryb said:
Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me what fear can do to people. Laws are designed to protect us from those who may harm us. Where we don't have laws should we let fear rule the land?
You know what's just as annoying as people supposedly getting shamed for not believing in science: calling people cowards when they may actually just be compassionate and/or sensible.
Now if we don't want to get a vaccine we are not sensible or compassionate. Thanks!
Edited to add the emoji before someone gets too upset.
Fer Chrissakes, will you please think before you post? I was referring to insinuations by derryb about people who support vaccinations. It wasn't a jab at you or anybody else who doesn't want the vaccine.
Fer Chissakes, will you calm down... didn't you see the little emoji. That means the comment was tongue in cheek.
@ReadyFireAim said:
I'm considered essential so...
Yea, basically, they gave us a few scraps of fabric and told us to get back to work while they hid in their houses.
Most all of us got sick.
[cough-cough]
Now they want me to get a shot so they are safe to come out and play.
I'm not sure this is an argument for or against anything, but there is some truth in this. A lot of people had the ability to stay home and safe because of all the people, often minimum wage workers, who had to go out and enable others to stay home.
And those folks have not gotten the big thank you they deserve. At one point there was talk of a bonus for them and I would have voted for that all day long
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So are the vaccine makers of IPV (polio), MMRV, and other vaccines. There is a vaccination compensation fund set up by Congress. Would you have your children or grandchildren skip those?
Yes, until proven SAFE and EFFECTIVE I would not recommend any vaccine to anyone. Vaccines of the past were not created in the same environment of corporate greed and corruption we live with today. IMO, COVID vaccines were rushed to market and remain experimental.
I might point out that the vaccines currently in use were subject to clinical trials, with volunteers- in great numbers and their side effects, efficiency and safety profiles were carefully analyzed. Though there may be long term unknowns, I might assure you that there are potential long term health problems associated with getting an active COVID-19 infection, and by my estimation, that risk far exceeds any that might arise from the vaccine.
I’m outta here!
I haven’t personally insulted anyone, and just got promoted to “expert collector” so hopefully I won’t get banished.
If I do...
It’s been fun, and at least I went down fighting! :-)
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
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If the anthrax shots I got in the late 90s didn’t take me out, this one should be cake.
With hundreds of millions of people testing positive for the virus, and tens of millions already receiving the vaccine worldwide, its east to cherry pick outliers. With numbers like that, there is always going to be someone who had a strange reaction or a complex case. It doesn’t mean it’s the rule, just an outlier.
Comments
Fauci? The same one who has taken literally every position on masks in the past year, ranging from being adamantly opposed to people wearing them to telling people to wear two?
I wear a mask, social distance, and I do not touch anything in public that I have not wiped down with a sanitizing wipe. And if something of mine, such as a credit card, is in contact with something I could not wipe down, then I wipe that down before I bring it back into my bubble.
I take the best precautions I feel are helpful in any way, but I do not blindly listen to anyone. There are still too many unknowns for anyone to have all the answers.
Coin shows have not been a concern of mine, but cashing in coins and then getting new ones at the banks has been a major problem that I am anxious to see resolved.
As I understand it, "they" can't say if the vaccine prevents contagion, prevents symptoms, and/or provides immunity. Whatever effectiveness they assert, "they" can't say if it's short term, long term or lifelong. "They" can't say if you need boosters or different vaccines for newer "variants". Then there is the issue of new vaccine technology and possible side-effects...I'll decline.
(l8-)>>
Post of the year hands down!!!!
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
The fauci mask arguement is disingenuous at best. He said early on unless your are a first responder respirators were not needed. Why? Because the hospital staff needed them and the national inventory was shot. Sometimes you gotta dig deeper than the headline. But like has been said multiple times, do what you want as long as it does not effect anybody else.
To those that have been on the front lines...thank you
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No one (at least most people) aren't getting vaccinated out of "blind faith." They're getting vaccinated out of personal calculus. Whether or not one dies of Covid "because they had some underlying condition" and/or would have died "anyway" (no one's said that here, but I've heard it said), it's pretty clear that Covid's a ghastly way to die. My own calculus is that I'm 75 and I'd rather die some other way. I'm betting that vaccination makes that a lot less likely. Yeah, faith. But hardly "blind."
Hope to see y'all at FUN in January!
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Dpoole- hope we don’t have to wait all the way till then! Fingers crossed.
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That's not exactly accurate. Of course it is no longer March so there's not much point in clinging to March 2020 guidance. But, to be accurate...
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-dr-fauci-say-no-masks-like-trump-claiming-1540383
Later, after the guidance changed, he said that he had made the statement because he was trying to preserve the supply for first responders. But he did not include that fact in the original statement.
"Fauci first spoke about the wearing of masks amid the COVID-19 pandemic during a March interview with 60 Minutes.
"Right now, in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks," Fauci said during the interview. "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask."
He continued, "When you're in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it's not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is.""
Eating red meat or sugar and smoking tobacco (out of range of others) doesn't have consequences for anyone but yourself, whereas not getting a Covid-19 vaccine potentially does.
As RYK and others have pointed out, no one is shaming you or forcing you to take the vaccine. Just don't expect to be welcomed into public social gatherings until you do.
Good science is always being revised and updated, sometimes even reversed.
This aspect of the process of science is being latched onto and used as evidence to discredit the entire field and process. This is a big problem!
Those of us working on the front lines in high risk environments have NEVER discounted the value of masks.
It was the details of types of masks and political dancing that Dr. Fauci was being dragged into that muddied the waters!
There is a great deal of variation in the effectiveness of different mask types and proper fitting.
Masking the public is just one tool of many that were utilized in an overall effort to slow the exponential growth of this virus spread through our population. Recall initially, there was great concern of overwhelming our healthcare systems. This is STILL a concern for many.
To those that admit all these efforts with masks and vaccines are hopeless and that we might just as well allow this thing to run its natural course, I applaud your honesty.
Your approach however is a slap in the face to those trying to save lives.
The whole idea was to “flatten the exponential curve” and spare our healthcare systems from being overwhelmed.
If those of you that might refuse to do their part by just wearing a little mask, can’t even do that, in a modest effort to help their fellow citizens, then perhaps they might kindly agree to crawling under some dark bush next time they get really sick...
Deal?
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
That is correct. Fauci at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, said masks were not recommended for the general public, as authorities were trying to prevent a mask shortage for health workers and the extent of asymptomatic spread was unknown. But he Was not clear as to why and dumbed down his explanation. Early on he also placed greater emphasis on fomite transmission route which we now know is not the primary means of transmission. Thus the people fiddling with their mask and then touching their eyes mouth nose etc. part of his explanation.
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You have never heard of second hand smoke and the danger of that? As an interesting side note the health care industry is well known for the high number of smokers that work in that industry.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Not wanting the vaccine at this point is not a matter of doubting the ruthlessness of the virus. It is a matter of doubting the safety of the vaccine.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Let me repost for your benefit:
Eating red meat or sugar and smoking tobacco (OUT OF RANGE OF OTHERS) doesn't have consequences for anyone but yourself, whereas not getting a Covid-19 vaccine potentially does.
Hopefully that clarifies things for you.
But you are wrong. Me keeling over from a heart attack does have consequences for others. And the smoking tobacco out of range of others. How far away is out of range of others? In an apartment building where I'm smoking in my apartment, but others share the same ventilation system? If I'm in a casino and they have a smoking section that is in the middle of the same room I'm in but it's roped off? Is that out of range? So if I'm 6.5' away from you do I still need a mask since social distancing guidelines say at least 6'. Or if there are 6 of us at a dinner table instead of 5. Are we all now at more risk than we were before #6 showed up to our table?
And FWIW I wear a mask whenever I am indoors with others (outside of my home) and when I am at work.
And even when the Gov. of my state said that we had to make reservations to dine at a restaurant instead of just walking in.(because apparently Covid doesn't like people without reservations) I complied.
And I've even been to a coin show or two. Took a table at one.
And I'm not ashamed at all. I'm merely pointing out that some people who choose to "Follow the Science" have some level of superiority complex and feel that others that don't want to believe the liars on TV's every words are crazies.
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Just how far does someone need to be for it to qualify as out of range? the last time I had the need to visit a hospital just outside the entrance there were a number of medical professionals puffing away and I had to hold my breath so as not to inhale their cancer causing secondhand smoke. Smoke from large fires has been known to affect the air quality in other states, just looking for clarification from those of you here that know the science.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
The healthcare industry that I work in has a much proportionally lower number number of smokers than the general public. Not sure what planet you hail from? RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Since I’m on a roll here....
Allow me to share one little story that might cheer up the survivor the fittest among us, and perhaps be thought provoking to some that might question the high numbers of fatalities here in the US.
I have a friend working in a rehab medicine facility in a smaller community. Last March, she got sick, as did her elderly mother, her husband and her children as well as many of the residents of the facility she worked at. She was very sick for three plus weeks and because she was a front line health care provider, was able to get tested for COVID-19. She tested positive.
Her elderly mother was not able to get tested, nor were ANY of the residents of that facility.
Within the course of about one month 50 of the 70 residents of that facility DIED!
NONE of them were tested for COVID. None of them are reflected in the formal statistics.
My friend was the only one tested because she was a front line Healh Care worker.
Then, this facility had to lay off most of their staff due to low patient census.
Good times were had by all!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Great debate...
There are probably some warnings on the way, but they will be mild... so far, imho.
Hope we don't lose anyone to covid topic this way, just talking about it.
I'm doing "all the things" like most, and waiting my turn for the shot.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Your freedom ends when it affects my right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness... You are not free to drive 140 mph on the highway because it poses a safety risk to others. Society does not care if you flatten your car against a median, but it does care if, on the way to the median, you take out a minivan with a family driving down the highway at 60 mph, in the correct lane, and minding their own business.
As far as I am concerned, you can drink a case of beer everyday, smoke a carton of cigarettes everyday, buy your coins in NGC slabs, or whatever. Knock yourself out. Just don’t engage in behavior that puts others around you at risk of illness or injury. It’s not that complicated and really not all that limiting.
I would buy anybody on this forum
A beer. Except jd..he strikes me as a single
Malt type.
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Laws are designed to protect us from those who may harm us. Where we don't have laws should we let fear rule the land?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
I think this thread has run it's course.
Also, another reason for not getting the vaccine is people who are very healthy with no underlying health conditions are practically at a 'zero' chance of dyeing.
I would assume most young, healthy people aren't too anxious about getting the vaccine.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
You know what's just as annoying as people supposedly getting shamed for not believing in science: calling people cowards when they may actually just be compassionate and/or sensible.
But there is my argument.
Many people do drive 140mph, drink a few beers and drive home, put their coins in NGC slabs and otherwise put people at risk or in harms way all the time. Then get on internet forums and call people who are not 100% sure they want to get a vaccine science deniers and blame them for spreading this virus.
Disclaimer: not saying you personally were doing that, but it seems to be the sentiment sometimes.
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I could continue the discussion and tell you about a formerly healthy 29 year old who was just discharged from my hospital after spending three months in the ICU, has no memory of anything that happened between November and last week, has months of recovery ahead, who knows what long term sequelae, but he didn’t die, so it’s all good! (Every decent size hospital in the country has numerous similar stories.) But I won’t bother. 😉
Now if we don't want to get a vaccine we are not sensible or compassionate. Thanks!
Edited to add the emoji before someone gets too upset.
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Oh for that rarest of humans - a doctor with humility. Certainly not found here.
The individuals who have been forced to abandon their businesses, incomes, assets, and abilities to provide for their families is quite a bit more complicated and limiting than you dismiss with nary a thought.
What Covid and these times has demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt is that government's role must be advisory, not dictatorial.
Fear of the virus does not make one a coward. As shown in this thread it clouds their objectiveness.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Fer Chrissakes, will you please think before you post? I was referring to insinuations by derryb about people who support vaccinations. It wasn't a jab at you or anybody else who doesn't want the vaccine.
Well you are really not gonna like what is coming down the proverbial road b/c covid vaccinations are going to be mandatory for a whole bunch of stuff. Folks will have the freedom to not take them and industry will have the freedom to not serve them etc. sort of like seatbelt laws. Does not matter if you don’t like them or agree with them. As for governments role..same old arguments were made during small pox and 1918 flu. States have the ability as does the fed to mandate for public health. Again don’t have to like it. Don’t even have to follow it but failure to do so will come with its own set of good times
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Whatever, dude. I'm done here...
I have insinuated nothing about people who support getting a vaccination. I have insinuated a few things about those who profit from it or attempt to force it on others.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
O the hypocrisy, do you hail from Mars? Because if you live on the planet Earth then you are part of the healthcare industry here, and the stats are that over 18% of doctors smoke. That rate is closer to 28% for lower level healthcare workers, feel free to educate yourself as Google is your friend.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
This post explained...
Think of a person of average intelligence. Now consider that half of the world is less intelligent than that person.> @derryb said:
Objectiveness as calibrated to how closely it matches to your opinion ?
Latin American Collection
Oh for that rarest of humans -a coin person who cared about anything but money. Not here! 😉
I am done here. Best of luck and best of health to all!
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So are the vaccine makers of IPV (polio), MMRV, and other vaccines. There is a vaccination compensation fund set up by Congress. Would you have your children or grandchildren skip those?
I'm considered essential so...
Yea, basically, they gave us a few scraps of fabric and told us to get back to work while they hid in their houses.
Most all of us got sick.
[cough-cough]
Now they want me to get a shot so they feel safe to come out and play.
My Saint Set
Objectiveness as calibrated to how closely one respect the rights of another to make his/her own decisions.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
I have a lot to live for
I will get vaccinated the day I'm eligible
I will wear masks in public
I will stay away from large gatherings
I will avoid those who don't wear masks like the plague
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You want me to eat my red meat out of the range of others????
Yes, until proven SAFE and EFFECTIVE I would not recommend any vaccine to anyone.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Fer Chissakes, will you calm down... didn't you see the little emoji. That means the comment was tongue in cheek.
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I'm not sure this is an argument for or against anything, but there is some truth in this. A lot of people had the ability to stay home and safe because of all the people, often minimum wage workers, who had to go out and enable others to stay home.
And those folks have not gotten the big thank you they deserve. At one point there was talk of a bonus for them and I would have voted for that all day long
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Maybe we will get to have a Coin Show some time
Lafayette Grading Set
I might point out that the vaccines currently in use were subject to clinical trials, with volunteers- in great numbers and their side effects, efficiency and safety profiles were carefully analyzed. Though there may be long term unknowns, I might assure you that there are potential long term health problems associated with getting an active COVID-19 infection, and by my estimation, that risk far exceeds any that might arise from the vaccine.
I’m outta here!
I haven’t personally insulted anyone, and just got promoted to “expert collector” so hopefully I won’t get banished.
If I do...
It’s been fun, and at least I went down fighting! :-)
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
I really really hope by the fall
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If the anthrax shots I got in the late 90s didn’t take me out, this one should be cake.
With hundreds of millions of people testing positive for the virus, and tens of millions already receiving the vaccine worldwide, its east to cherry pick outliers. With numbers like that, there is always going to be someone who had a strange reaction or a complex case. It doesn’t mean it’s the rule, just an outlier.