@Coinosaurus said:
I am grateful my consignment decisions aren't picked apart with five pages of varying opinions.
Well, "publicly" cuts both ways, doesn't it? We don't recall seeing you promote your coins for sale in coin forums, your firm doesn't publish newsletters about them, etc.
It's other interested collectors "promoting" the sale on the forums, not Bruce, Laura or anyone from Legend. Bruce is just answering questions that come up about it. I'm glad he comes on and posts, but I can see the point made by @Coinosaurus.
For example, none of the following were started by Bruce, Laura or anyone from Legend.
Looking through Bruce's past discussions, I didn't see any thread promoting sales, but many threads talking about the enjoyment of coins including pickups ranging from Oliver Jung to eBay. I just see a passionate collector that loves to share.
Well, the long-running "latest" thread wasn't started by the manufacturer/seller either.. yet he pops in to discuss the products, too. One can parse and label it any way they wish, but one doesn't do it if it doesn't make sense to them to do so, does one?
It's either an open dialogue, or it's not. And it's mostly happy talk, anyway, soo..
@Baley said:
Well, the long-running "latest" thread wasn't started by the manufacturer/seller either.. yet he pops in to discuss the products, too. One can parse and label it any way they wish, but one doesn't do it if it doesn't make sense to them to do so, does one?
It's either an open dialogue, or it's not. And it's mostly happy talk, anyway, soo..
He's not promoting either in my opinion. It's other interested collectors posting each new release into the thread and then he responds to answer questions and clarify discussion.
His own discussions tend to be around his newps, like other collectors.
I’m very happy that Bruce responds. I find it interesting, informative, and educational. It’s not everyday that the owner of a 10M coin will participate in a thread about such coin.
@WCC said:
It's been the dream of a segment of the professional numismatic community to draw the big money from art into coins. It's not going to happen in any timeframe which is meaningful to anyone now.
I've mentioned this before but we might need to change how people enjoy coins for this breakthrough. I've mentioned we should have giclee art of photos like TrueView hanging on people's walls to try to enjoy coins that way.
When I see coin displays at shows with a slab inside a glass case behind a velvet rope, it doesn't look that interesting to me and it's hard to share it with others. Having large scale TrueView-like photos hanging on wall that you can get close to could have more potential for discussion. One reason is that multiple people can look at the wall art and discuss it at the same time, while when something is small in a presentation like that, only one person can really look at it at a time.
What is your definition of "breakthrough"? Going by the general inferred opinion, it's never going to happen where coins sell like the most expensive art.
@skier07 said:
I’m very happy that Bruce responds. I find it interesting, informative, and educational. It’s not everyday that the owner of a 10M coin will participate in a thread about such coin.
I for one am ecstatic to get that inside info from TDN.
The rest of the discussion, with all due respect, since I'm a Darkside regular most often, was too concentrated on dollar amounts and returns etc, missing the point of how passionate a collector TDN is, with the finest box of three in the world ,except for MrEureka and bidask, both of whom I know and I’ve met in person.
I was telling Mr Eureka, that IMHO, TDN’s reserve should have been above $9 mill so that the coin doesn’t pass into somebody else’s hands. A huge missed opportunity for whoever has this kind of money, from the US or not.
This is a piece of US and world history belonging to the Smithsonian normally. And you can’t put a price on history, it’s very short sighted to say, « the market has spoken ».
The market had spoken in 1988 too, with this same coin going into the hands of Andy for $380K if I remember correctly and stayed in his hands for almost three years. If this is priceless, how priceless it is that TDN has been holding it since 2013 and agreeing with bidask, I believe that he will keep it for another 5 or 10 years ? Add that up and TDN will be perhaps the longest time owner of that coin in the past 40 years, because I’m still waiting on its pedigree from George Washington to MrEureka in 1988.
Priceless!
They should hire me for the MasterCard commercials, only they won’t know what a I’m talking about...😂😂😂
@WCC said:
It's been the dream of a segment of the professional numismatic community to draw the big money from art into coins. It's not going to happen in any timeframe which is meaningful to anyone now.
I've mentioned this before but we might need to change how people enjoy coins for this breakthrough. I've mentioned we should have giclee art of photos like TrueView hanging on people's walls to try to enjoy coins that way.
When I see coin displays at shows with a slab inside a glass case behind a velvet rope, it doesn't look that interesting to me and it's hard to share it with others. Having large scale TrueView-like photos hanging on wall that you can get close to could have more potential for discussion. One reason is that multiple people can look at the wall art and discuss it at the same time, while when something is small in a presentation like that, only one person can really look at it at a time.
What is your definition of "breakthrough"? Going by the general inferred opinion, it's never going to happen where coins sell like the most expensive art.
I like to be an optimist. My proposed approach above is start treating coins like art, for appreciation.
PS: I forgot to thank Mark Feld for posting the video of the 2013 sale. As for the member who said that he wanted to see Mr Pogue placing his $5250000 bid, it had been placed by telephone as can be seen in the video.
@WCC said:
It's been the dream of a segment of the professional numismatic community to draw the big money from art into coins. It's not going to happen in any timeframe which is meaningful to anyone now.
I've mentioned this before but we might need to change how people enjoy coins for this breakthrough. I've mentioned we should have giclee art of photos like TrueView hanging on people's walls to try to enjoy coins that way.
When I see coin displays at shows with a slab inside a glass case behind a velvet rope, it doesn't look that interesting to me and it's hard to share it with others. Having large scale TrueView-like photos hanging on wall that you can get close to could have more potential for discussion. One reason is that multiple people can look at the wall art and discuss it at the same time, while when something is small in a presentation like that, only one person can really look at it at a time.
What is your definition of "breakthrough"? Going by the general inferred opinion, it's never going to happen where coins sell like the most expensive art.
I like to be an optimist. My proposed approach above is start treating coins like art, for appreciation.
It's never going to happen. There is no equivalence between any mass produced collectible and prominent art. Not all coins are mass produced (such as patterns) but this doesn't make any difference.
It's a combination of two things. What a coin represents as a collectible and the cultural attitude toward it. The coin isn't going to change so for this sentiment to be realized, it's going to take a cultural change to do it. I have never read a single remotely credible reason from anyone giving any reason to believe it. Marketing hype by the industry certainly isn't one.
I have also yet to hear why it makes any difference, except to the handful of collectors who own the very most expensive coins. There certainly will never be a "trickle down" effect where the ultra affluent start buying and paying a lot more for the coins members on this forum mostly own.
@Higashiyama said:
At some point in time, the value of the 1794 SP66 dollar will likely pass that of the Jeff Koons rabbit. At that point, the values of both, in real dollars, may be lower than the values today.
I remember the prior thread. I consider the "rabbit" art to be the equivalent of an expensive toy. Something that could be accidentally thrown away as happened with my employer years ago (before I joined).
My employer supports local "artists" one of which was displayed outdoors. Apparently, a maintenance person didn't know what it was and threw it away thinking it was garbage. His assumption was actually correct. It just happened to cost several million dollars.
@WCC said:
It's been the dream of a segment of the professional numismatic community to draw the big money from art into coins. It's not going to happen in any timeframe which is meaningful to anyone now.
I've mentioned this before but we might need to change how people enjoy coins for this breakthrough. I've mentioned we should have giclee art of photos like TrueView hanging on people's walls to try to enjoy coins that way.
When I see coin displays at shows with a slab inside a glass case behind a velvet rope, it doesn't look that interesting to me and it's hard to share it with others. Having large scale TrueView-like photos hanging on wall that you can get close to could have more potential for discussion. One reason is that multiple people can look at the wall art and discuss it at the same time, while when something is small in a presentation like that, only one person can really look at it at a time.
What is your definition of "breakthrough"? Going by the general inferred opinion, it's never going to happen where coins sell like the most expensive art.
I like to be an optimist. My proposed approach above is start treating coins like art, for appreciation.
It's never going to happen. There is no equivalence between any mass produced collectible and prominent art. Not all coins are mass produced (such as patterns) but this doesn't make any difference.
Perhaps not, but not because art cannot be mass produced, it's just the most expensive pieces aren't.
However, there is tighter relationship between prominent cars and coins as both tend to be manufactured. Cars, like art, are easier to enjoy with a group. In fact, with some cars, you start of enjoying it as art by admiring it as a group.
@Higashiyama said:
At some point in time, the value of the 1794 SP66 dollar will likely pass that of the Jeff Koons rabbit. At that point, the values of both, in real dollars, may be lower than the values today.
I remember the prior thread. I consider the "rabbit" art to be the equivalent of an expensive toy. Something that could be accidentally thrown away as happened with my employer years ago (before I joined).
My employer supports local "artists" one of which was displayed outdoors. Apparently, a maintenance person didn't know what it was and threw it away thinking it was garbage. His assumption was actually correct. It just happened to cost several million dollars.
So you're saying art is like coins
Expensive coins get thrown into the garbage too!
I'd venture many people wouldn't be able to recognize an expensive token or medal and might throw it away as well. At least coins could end up in a CoinStar machine.
@WCC said:
It's been the dream of a segment of the professional numismatic community to draw the big money from art into coins. It's not going to happen in any timeframe which is meaningful to anyone now.
I've mentioned this before but we might need to change how people enjoy coins for this breakthrough. I've mentioned we should have giclee art of photos like TrueView hanging on people's walls to try to enjoy coins that way.
When I see coin displays at shows with a slab inside a glass case behind a velvet rope, it doesn't look that interesting to me and it's hard to share it with others. Having large scale TrueView-like photos hanging on wall that you can get close to could have more potential for discussion. One reason is that multiple people can look at the wall art and discuss it at the same time, while when something is small in a presentation like that, only one person can really look at it at a time.
What is your definition of "breakthrough"? Going by the general inferred opinion, it's never going to happen where coins sell like the most expensive art.
I like to be an optimist. My proposed approach above is start treating coins like art, for appreciation.
It's never going to happen. There is no equivalence between any mass produced collectible and prominent art. Not all coins are mass produced (such as patterns) but this doesn't make any difference.
It's a combination of two things. What a coin represents as a collectible and the cultural attitude toward it. The coin isn't going to change so for this sentiment to be realized, it's going to take a cultural change to do it. I have never read a single remotely credible reason from anyone giving any reason to believe it. Marketing hype by the industry certainly isn't one.
I have also yet to hear why it makes any difference, except to the handful of collectors who own the very most expensive coins. There certainly will never be a "trickle down" effect where the ultra affluent start buying and paying a lot more for the coins members on this forum mostly own.
"Never" is a long time. Im guessing that 40 years ago someone said t works of art would never sell for more than $100,000,000. Alot of things happen that no one thought was possible. Who thought 7 months ago we would be wearing masks and working remotely?
@WCC said:
It's been the dream of a segment of the professional numismatic community to draw the big money from art into coins. It's not going to happen in any timeframe which is meaningful to anyone now.
I've mentioned this before but we might need to change how people enjoy coins for this breakthrough. I've mentioned we should have giclee art of photos like TrueView hanging on people's walls to try to enjoy coins that way.
When I see coin displays at shows with a slab inside a glass case behind a velvet rope, it doesn't look that interesting to me and it's hard to share it with others. Having large scale TrueView-like photos hanging on wall that you can get close to could have more potential for discussion. One reason is that multiple people can look at the wall art and discuss it at the same time, while when something is small in a presentation like that, only one person can really look at it at a time.
What is your definition of "breakthrough"? Going by the general inferred opinion, it's never going to happen where coins sell like the most expensive art.
I like to be an optimist. My proposed approach above is start treating coins like art, for appreciation.
It's never going to happen. There is no equivalence between any mass produced collectible and prominent art. Not all coins are mass produced (such as patterns) but this doesn't make any difference.
It's a combination of two things. What a coin represents as a collectible and the cultural attitude toward it. The coin isn't going to change so for this sentiment to be realized, it's going to take a cultural change to do it. I have never read a single remotely credible reason from anyone giving any reason to believe it. Marketing hype by the industry certainly isn't one.
First, coins are indeed appreciated in roughly the same way as art. For their beauty, for their place in history, for their role in bringing together people of similar interests, as a store of value, and for intellectual amusement.
Second, it's not unusual for cultural changes to impact the demand for collectible coins. Just look at how the hobby's migration to the internet has changed things. And consider how much more time you devote to you hobby now that you can research, shop and bullshit with other collectors online. No doubt many people have gained a greater appreciation for coins in the past decade or two.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@WCC said:
It's been the dream of a segment of the professional numismatic community to draw the big money from art into coins. It's not going to happen in any timeframe which is meaningful to anyone now.
I've mentioned this before but we might need to change how people enjoy coins for this breakthrough. I've mentioned we should have giclee art of photos like TrueView hanging on people's walls to try to enjoy coins that way.
When I see coin displays at shows with a slab inside a glass case behind a velvet rope, it doesn't look that interesting to me and it's hard to share it with others. Having large scale TrueView-like photos hanging on wall that you can get close to could have more potential for discussion. One reason is that multiple people can look at the wall art and discuss it at the same time, while when something is small in a presentation like that, only one person can really look at it at a time.
What is your definition of "breakthrough"? Going by the general inferred opinion, it's never going to happen where coins sell like the most expensive art.
I like to be an optimist. My proposed approach above is start treating coins like art, for appreciation.
It's never going to happen. There is no equivalence between any mass produced collectible and prominent art. Not all coins are mass produced (such as patterns) but this doesn't make any difference.
It's a combination of two things. What a coin represents as a collectible and the cultural attitude toward it. The coin isn't going to change so for this sentiment to be realized, it's going to take a cultural change to do it. I have never read a single remotely credible reason from anyone giving any reason to believe it. Marketing hype by the industry certainly isn't one.
I have also yet to hear why it makes any difference, except to the handful of collectors who own the very most expensive coins. There certainly will never be a "trickle down" effect where the ultra affluent start buying and paying a lot more for the coins members on this forum mostly own.
"Never" is a long time. Im guessing that 40 years ago someone said t works of art would never sell for more than $100,000,000. Alot of things happen that no one thought was possible. Who thought 7 months ago we would be wearing masks and working remotely?
My claim in this extract you quoted isn't that coins won't sell for any particular price, it's that none will be viewed by the non-collector as equivalent to prominent art.
Whenever I hear this sentiment, it's always (without exception) an abstract claim. Random buying (literally like winning the lottery) explains how any coin call sell for a lot more temporarily. No one can provide any credible explanation why it's going to happen and last because it's contrary to the evident motivation of anyone other than a US coin collector.
The most realistic outcome where it can happen is where coins are bought as substitutes for other asset classes; stocks, bonds and real estate. That's what Mark Salzberg was essentially claiming exists now for certain coins as a viable alternative in his recent published comments and it's total nonsense.
@WCC said:
It's been the dream of a segment of the professional numismatic community to draw the big money from art into coins. It's not going to happen in any timeframe which is meaningful to anyone now.
I've mentioned this before but we might need to change how people enjoy coins for this breakthrough. I've mentioned we should have giclee art of photos like TrueView hanging on people's walls to try to enjoy coins that way.
When I see coin displays at shows with a slab inside a glass case behind a velvet rope, it doesn't look that interesting to me and it's hard to share it with others. Having large scale TrueView-like photos hanging on wall that you can get close to could have more potential for discussion. One reason is that multiple people can look at the wall art and discuss it at the same time, while when something is small in a presentation like that, only one person can really look at it at a time.
What is your definition of "breakthrough"? Going by the general inferred opinion, it's never going to happen where coins sell like the most expensive art.
I like to be an optimist. My proposed approach above is start treating coins like art, for appreciation.
It's never going to happen. There is no equivalence between any mass produced collectible and prominent art. Not all coins are mass produced (such as patterns) but this doesn't make any difference.
It's a combination of two things. What a coin represents as a collectible and the cultural attitude toward it. The coin isn't going to change so for this sentiment to be realized, it's going to take a cultural change to do it. I have never read a single remotely credible reason from anyone giving any reason to believe it. Marketing hype by the industry certainly isn't one.
First, coins are indeed appreciated in roughly the same way as art. For their beauty, for their place in history, for their role in bringing together people of similar interests, as a store of value, and for intellectual amusement.
Second, it's not unusual for cultural changes to impact the demand for collectible coins. Just look at how the hobby's migration to the internet has changed things. And consider how much more time you devote to you hobby now that you can research, shop and bullshit with other collectors online. No doubt many people who have gained a greater appreciation for coins in the past decade or two.
By coin collectors, yes. It's apparent that if more of the ultra affluent become collectors, it's going to have an impact on the prices of the most elite (US) coinage. I don't believe this will happen either but a lot more possible.
What believable change is going to convince some random buyer who isn't a coin collector to become one and pay art type prices? This is what I was trying to say in my comments.
It isn't like these people don't know coin collecting exists. They have the money to buy any coin they want yet don't do it. The most evident reason is because it doesn't interest them.
Im personally worried that longterm cash payments disappear completely and coins become the new stamps. Not sure though if thats good or bad in the US, in Europe I can tell you it is.
@privaterarecoincollector said:
Im personally worried that longterm cash payments disappear completely and coins become the new stamps. Not sure though if thats good or bad in the US, in Europe I can tell you it is.
The last 50 years have already given us a pretty good insight into what coin collecting will be like in a world where finding good coins in change is impossible. Bottom line is that it's a setback for the hobby, but not a fatal one.
A much better question deserving a discussion in it's own thread:
Why have coins fared so much better than stamps in the past 40 years?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@WCC said:
It's been the dream of a segment of the professional numismatic community to draw the big money from art into coins. It's not going to happen in any timeframe which is meaningful to anyone now.
I've mentioned this before but we might need to change how people enjoy coins for this breakthrough. I've mentioned we should have giclee art of photos like TrueView hanging on people's walls to try to enjoy coins that way.
When I see coin displays at shows with a slab inside a glass case behind a velvet rope, it doesn't look that interesting to me and it's hard to share it with others. Having large scale TrueView-like photos hanging on wall that you can get close to could have more potential for discussion. One reason is that multiple people can look at the wall art and discuss it at the same time, while when something is small in a presentation like that, only one person can really look at it at a time.
What is your definition of "breakthrough"? Going by the general inferred opinion, it's never going to happen where coins sell like the most expensive art.
I like to be an optimist. My proposed approach above is start treating coins like art, for appreciation.
It's never going to happen. There is no equivalence between any mass produced collectible and prominent art. Not all coins are mass produced (such as patterns) but this doesn't make any difference.
It's a combination of two things. What a coin represents as a collectible and the cultural attitude toward it. The coin isn't going to change so for this sentiment to be realized, it's going to take a cultural change to do it. I have never read a single remotely credible reason from anyone giving any reason to believe it. Marketing hype by the industry certainly isn't one.
I have also yet to hear why it makes any difference, except to the handful of collectors who own the very most expensive coins. There certainly will never be a "trickle down" effect where the ultra affluent start buying and paying a lot more for the coins members on this forum mostly own.
"Never" is a long time. Im guessing that 40 years ago someone said t works of art would never sell for more than $100,000,000. Alot of things happen that no one thought was possible. Who thought 7 months ago we would be wearing masks and working remotely?
My claim in this extract you quoted isn't that coins won't sell for any particular price, it's that none will be viewed by the non-collector as equivalent to prominent art.
Whenever I hear this sentiment, it's always (without exception) an abstract claim. Random buying (literally like winning the lottery) explains how any coin call sell for a lot more temporarily. No one can provide any credible explanation why it's going to happen and last because it's contrary to the evident motivation of anyone other than a US coin collector.
The most realistic outcome where it can happen is where coins are bought as substitutes for other asset classes; stocks, bonds and real estate. That's what Mark Salzberg was essentially claiming exists now for certain coins as a viable alternative in his recent published comments and it's total nonsense.
2 points: 1) you are looking for objective evidence that coins will be viewed similarly to art. Art is subjective. I already view coins similar to art. A gorgeous proof gold in deep cameo is art to me and i think many others. Its fine to have a disagreement but demanding objective evidence to a very subjective area is a bit unfair.
2) you often make critical comments about the U.S coin market and U.S. collectors. I know you collect foreign coins. I would never go to a foreign coin forum a constantly be critical of their hobby. Just saying.
Truer words have never been spoken. When I win the big one, I won't give a ra what the so-called market says the nicest 1894-S dime I can get my hands on is "really worth." I'm just going to indulge myself in acquiring the damn thing. Hell, I'll pay the market price of the Ice Cream specimen to the agent I commission to find a nicer one for me.
Then when I die Greta Thunberg gets my '94-S and it will be her problem to get as much as she can for it to help feed hungry children around the globe.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
This chat room weenie has nothing to add other than to say, I'm enjoying the thread.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
If the coin market were to experience a strong bull
Market, like the art market with a string of higher and higher record prices then I could see new money enter the market looking for an alternative investment with low correlation to traditional assets.
It would seem to support @wcc's thesis on art versus coins. It is hard to imagine coins competing in the 'rarified' domain of high end art.
Although I don't think that that the ultimate coin will ever be worth as much as the ultimate painting, a few points.
Comparing the market for a unique painting to coins that were produced and exist in quantithy is like comparing apples and oranges. If you want to make a more realistic comparison, compare coins to prints, photographs, sculpture, etc.
Coins are tiny compared to paintings. So a typical great coin collection might contain 100 times as many pieces as a typical great art collection. Coins aren't quite the poor man's hobby they might at first appear to be.
Coins are easier to steal and fence, so they are typically hidden away in safe deposit boxes. They are therefore not as well suited to be collected as status symbols.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@SYRACUSIAN said:
I for one am ecstatic to get that inside info from TDN.
The rest of the discussion, with all due respect, since I'm a Darkside regular most often, was too concentrated on dollar amounts and returns etc, missing the point of how passionate a collector TDN is, with the finest box of three in the world ,except for MrEureka and bidask, both of whom I know and I’ve met in person.
I'm glad you're happy. This forum needs more happiness.
I was telling Mr Eureka, that IMHO, TDN’s reserve should have been above $9 mill so that the coin doesn’t pass into somebody else’s hands.
>
So it didn't sell with a $7 million reserve, but you think the reserve should have been $2 million higher? Isn't the point of an auction to sell the lot?
A huge missed opportunity for whoever has this kind of money, from the US or not.
It is a special coin; however, I find it interesting that all of those raving over what a missed opportunity this was and how undervalued it was didn't pursue the coin or pool together to pursue the coin.
This is a piece of US and world history belonging to the Smithsonian normally. And you can’t put a price on history, it’s very short sighted to say, « the market has spoken ».
Apparently multiple people have multiple times.
The market had spoken in 1988 too, with this same coin going into the hands of Andy for $380K if I remember correctly and stayed in his hands for almost three years. If this is priceless, how priceless it is that TDN has been holding it since 2013 and agreeing with bidask, I believe that he will keep it for another 5 or 10 years ? Add that up and TDN will be perhaps the longest time owner of that coin in the past 40 years, because I’m still waiting on its pedigree from George Washington to MrEureka in 1988.
@bidask said:
There are posters in this thread that makes me think of the Aesop fable
Fox and Grapes
There are no sour grapes.
People simply questioned the price and original bidding strategy. I don't think anyone has said that it wasn't a special coin. All of us can relate (probably) to pursuing a coin at any cost. A discussion of pricing is relevant to the larger market: Has the top end of the coin market taken a major hit? Alternatively, was the coin overpriced to begin with when it was sold from the Cardinal Collection?
People also wisely questioned unsupported speculation that this was the piece sent to Washington. It may; it may not be the same one. We should be factually accurate and precise rather than engaging in wishful thinking and confirmation bias.
@Gazes said:
2 points: 1) you are looking for objective evidence that coins will be viewed similarly to art. Art is subjective. I already view coins similar to art. A gorgeous proof gold in deep cameo is art to me and i think many others. Its fine to have a disagreement but demanding objective evidence to a very subjective area is a bit unfair.
2) you often make critical comments about the U.S coin market and U.S. collectors. I know you collect foreign coins. I would never go to a foreign coin forum a constantly be critical of their hobby. Just saying.
Claiming non-collectors don't want to buy any coin isn't criticizing anything. I specifically stated in an earlier post right in this thread that this coin is compelling to US coin collectors, just not anyone else. Is that criticizing also?
You just don't like this self evident opinion just as you didn't before, which is why I have no interest in exchanging posts with you.
It would seem to support @wcc's thesis on art versus coins. It is hard to imagine coins competing in the 'rarified' domain of high end art.
Although I don't think that that the ultimate coin will ever be worth as much as the ultimate painting, a few points.
Comparing the market for a unique painting to coins that were produced and exist in quantithy is like comparing apples and oranges. If you want to make a more realistic comparison, compare coins to prints, photographs, sculpture, etc.
Coins are tiny compared to paintings. So a typical great coin collection might contain 100 times as many pieces as a typical great art collection. Coins aren't quite the poor man's hobby they might at first appear to be.
Coins are easier to steal and fence, so they are typically hidden away in safe deposit boxes. They are therefore not as well suited to be collected as status symbols.
You missed my initial point though I went off track. I wasn't initially trying to compare art to coins. I agree with you that there is no equivalence. The point I was initially trying to make was in contradiction from others here that it's reasonable to believe a non-collector or collector outside the US has any motive to buy it. They don't and won't. That's all and nothing more.
@Gazes said:
2 points: 1) you are looking for objective evidence that coins will be viewed similarly to art. Art is subjective. I already view coins similar to art. A gorgeous proof gold in deep cameo is art to me and i think many others. Its fine to have a disagreement but demanding objective evidence to a very subjective area is a bit unfair.
2) you often make critical comments about the U.S coin market and U.S. collectors. I know you collect foreign coins. I would never go to a foreign coin forum a constantly be critical of their hobby. Just saying.
Claiming non-collectors don't want to buy any coin isn't criticizing anything. I specifically stated in an earlier post right in this thread that this coin is compelling to US coin collectors, just not anyone else. Is that criticizing also?
You just don't like this self evident opinion just as you didn't before, which is why I have no interest in exchanging posts with you.
It is tiresome to constantly read negative comments about US coins from someone who does not collect US coins.
Comments
It's other interested collectors "promoting" the sale on the forums, not Bruce, Laura or anyone from Legend. Bruce is just answering questions that come up about it. I'm glad he comes on and posts, but I can see the point made by @Coinosaurus.
For example, none of the following were started by Bruce, Laura or anyone from Legend.
Looking through Bruce's past discussions, I didn't see any thread promoting sales, but many threads talking about the enjoyment of coins including pickups ranging from Oliver Jung to eBay. I just see a passionate collector that loves to share.
Well, the long-running "latest" thread wasn't started by the manufacturer/seller either.. yet he pops in to discuss the products, too. One can parse and label it any way they wish, but one doesn't do it if it doesn't make sense to them to do so, does one?
It's either an open dialogue, or it's not. And it's mostly happy talk, anyway, soo..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
He's not promoting either in my opinion. It's other interested collectors posting each new release into the thread and then he responds to answer questions and clarify discussion.
His own discussions tend to be around his newps, like other collectors.
I’m very happy that Bruce responds. I find it interesting, informative, and educational. It’s not everyday that the owner of a 10M coin will participate in a thread about such coin.
What is your definition of "breakthrough"? Going by the general inferred opinion, it's never going to happen where coins sell like the most expensive art.
I for one am ecstatic to get that inside info from TDN.
The rest of the discussion, with all due respect, since I'm a Darkside regular most often, was too concentrated on dollar amounts and returns etc, missing the point of how passionate a collector TDN is, with the finest box of three in the world ,except for MrEureka and bidask, both of whom I know and I’ve met in person.
I was telling Mr Eureka, that IMHO, TDN’s reserve should have been above $9 mill so that the coin doesn’t pass into somebody else’s hands. A huge missed opportunity for whoever has this kind of money, from the US or not.
This is a piece of US and world history belonging to the Smithsonian normally. And you can’t put a price on history, it’s very short sighted to say, « the market has spoken ».
The market had spoken in 1988 too, with this same coin going into the hands of Andy for $380K if I remember correctly and stayed in his hands for almost three years. If this is priceless, how priceless it is that TDN has been holding it since 2013 and agreeing with bidask, I believe that he will keep it for another 5 or 10 years ? Add that up and TDN will be perhaps the longest time owner of that coin in the past 40 years, because I’m still waiting on its pedigree from George Washington to MrEureka in 1988.
Priceless!
They should hire me for the MasterCard commercials, only they won’t know what a I’m talking about...😂😂😂
myEbay
DPOTD 3
I like to be an optimist. My proposed approach above is start treating coins like art, for appreciation.
PS: I forgot to thank Mark Feld for posting the video of the 2013 sale. As for the member who said that he wanted to see Mr Pogue placing his $5250000 bid, it had been placed by telephone as can be seen in the video.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
It's never going to happen. There is no equivalence between any mass produced collectible and prominent art. Not all coins are mass produced (such as patterns) but this doesn't make any difference.
It's a combination of two things. What a coin represents as a collectible and the cultural attitude toward it. The coin isn't going to change so for this sentiment to be realized, it's going to take a cultural change to do it. I have never read a single remotely credible reason from anyone giving any reason to believe it. Marketing hype by the industry certainly isn't one.
I have also yet to hear why it makes any difference, except to the handful of collectors who own the very most expensive coins. There certainly will never be a "trickle down" effect where the ultra affluent start buying and paying a lot more for the coins members on this forum mostly own.
I remember the prior thread. I consider the "rabbit" art to be the equivalent of an expensive toy. Something that could be accidentally thrown away as happened with my employer years ago (before I joined).
My employer supports local "artists" one of which was displayed outdoors. Apparently, a maintenance person didn't know what it was and threw it away thinking it was garbage. His assumption was actually correct. It just happened to cost several million dollars.
Perhaps not, but not because art cannot be mass produced, it's just the most expensive pieces aren't.
However, there is tighter relationship between prominent cars and coins as both tend to be manufactured. Cars, like art, are easier to enjoy with a group. In fact, with some cars, you start of enjoying it as art by admiring it as a group.
So you're saying art is like coins
Expensive coins get thrown into the garbage too!
I'd venture many people wouldn't be able to recognize an expensive token or medal and might throw it away as well. At least coins could end up in a CoinStar machine.
This thread has now jumped the shark.
Latin American Collection
the sky is blue
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
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Latin American Collection
"Never" is a long time. Im guessing that 40 years ago someone said t works of art would never sell for more than $100,000,000. Alot of things happen that no one thought was possible. Who thought 7 months ago we would be wearing masks and working remotely?
First, coins are indeed appreciated in roughly the same way as art. For their beauty, for their place in history, for their role in bringing together people of similar interests, as a store of value, and for intellectual amusement.
Second, it's not unusual for cultural changes to impact the demand for collectible coins. Just look at how the hobby's migration to the internet has changed things. And consider how much more time you devote to you hobby now that you can research, shop and bullshit with other collectors online. No doubt many people have gained a greater appreciation for coins in the past decade or two.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
My claim in this extract you quoted isn't that coins won't sell for any particular price, it's that none will be viewed by the non-collector as equivalent to prominent art.
Whenever I hear this sentiment, it's always (without exception) an abstract claim. Random buying (literally like winning the lottery) explains how any coin call sell for a lot more temporarily. No one can provide any credible explanation why it's going to happen and last because it's contrary to the evident motivation of anyone other than a US coin collector.
The most realistic outcome where it can happen is where coins are bought as substitutes for other asset classes; stocks, bonds and real estate. That's what Mark Salzberg was essentially claiming exists now for certain coins as a viable alternative in his recent published comments and it's total nonsense.
By coin collectors, yes. It's apparent that if more of the ultra affluent become collectors, it's going to have an impact on the prices of the most elite (US) coinage. I don't believe this will happen either but a lot more possible.
What believable change is going to convince some random buyer who isn't a coin collector to become one and pay art type prices? This is what I was trying to say in my comments.
It isn't like these people don't know coin collecting exists. They have the money to buy any coin they want yet don't do it. The most evident reason is because it doesn't interest them.
There may be legal risks...
Im personally worried that longterm cash payments disappear completely and coins become the new stamps. Not sure though if thats good or bad in the US, in Europe I can tell you it is.
The last 50 years have already given us a pretty good insight into what coin collecting will be like in a world where finding good coins in change is impossible. Bottom line is that it's a setback for the hobby, but not a fatal one.
A much better question deserving a discussion in it's own thread:
Why have coins fared so much better than stamps in the past 40 years?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
2 points: 1) you are looking for objective evidence that coins will be viewed similarly to art. Art is subjective. I already view coins similar to art. A gorgeous proof gold in deep cameo is art to me and i think many others. Its fine to have a disagreement but demanding objective evidence to a very subjective area is a bit unfair.
2) you often make critical comments about the U.S coin market and U.S. collectors. I know you collect foreign coins. I would never go to a foreign coin forum a constantly be critical of their hobby. Just saying.
eff it, you only live once
Truer words have never been spoken. When I win the big one, I won't give a ra what the so-called market says the nicest 1894-S dime I can get my hands on is "really worth." I'm just going to indulge myself in acquiring the damn thing. Hell, I'll pay the market price of the Ice Cream specimen to the agent I commission to find a nicer one for me.
Then when I die Greta Thunberg gets my '94-S and it will be her problem to get as much as she can for it to help feed hungry children around the globe.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
There are posters in this thread that makes me think of the Aesop fable
Fox and Grapes
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
This chat room weenie has nothing to add other than to say, I'm enjoying the thread.
Here's a brief article from the Yale School of Management on the history and culture of record setting art sales:
https://som.yale.edu/news/2016/06/history-of-the-art-market-in-35-record-breaking-sales
It would seem to support @wcc's thesis on art versus coins. It is hard to imagine coins competing in the 'rarified' domain of high end art.
Nice!
Dude you should post more often. ⭐️
If the coin market were to experience a strong bull
Market, like the art market with a string of higher and higher record prices then I could see new money enter the market looking for an alternative investment with low correlation to traditional assets.
Although I don't think that that the ultimate coin will ever be worth as much as the ultimate painting, a few points.
Comparing the market for a unique painting to coins that were produced and exist in quantithy is like comparing apples and oranges. If you want to make a more realistic comparison, compare coins to prints, photographs, sculpture, etc.
Coins are tiny compared to paintings. So a typical great coin collection might contain 100 times as many pieces as a typical great art collection. Coins aren't quite the poor man's hobby they might at first appear to be.
Coins are easier to steal and fence, so they are typically hidden away in safe deposit boxes. They are therefore not as well suited to be collected as status symbols.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'm glad you're happy. This forum needs more happiness.
>
So it didn't sell with a $7 million reserve, but you think the reserve should have been $2 million higher? Isn't the point of an auction to sell the lot?
It is a special coin; however, I find it interesting that all of those raving over what a missed opportunity this was and how undervalued it was didn't pursue the coin or pool together to pursue the coin.
Apparently multiple people have multiple times.
Assumes facts not in evidence.
There are no sour grapes.
Claiming non-collectors don't want to buy any coin isn't criticizing anything. I specifically stated in an earlier post right in this thread that this coin is compelling to US coin collectors, just not anyone else. Is that criticizing also?
You just don't like this self evident opinion just as you didn't before, which is why I have no interest in exchanging posts with you.
It is tiresome to constantly read negative comments about US coins from someone who does not collect US coins.
Silver and gold of course!
You never know when you need silver and gold teeth to eat