What Coins Are Most at Risk for Doctoring?

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philographer
philographer Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited July 7, 2020 4:47PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Much has been written about the doctoring of coins for the past 20+ years, the loss of original beauty in series such as proof gold...These coins are gone forever.

What series do you think is most at risk for continued doctoring?

And...has anything about the doctoring situation made you rethink selling certain coins? What I’m getting at is...are there coins you’re holding because you think that if sold, they might be altered / manipulated / enhanced in some way? Do you see yourself as protecting them by holding them in your collection?

He who knows he has enough is rich.

Comments

  • Sonorandesertrat
    Sonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Early coppers (through 1814). Plenty of doctored coins have been given straight grades by TPGs.

    I don't view myself as a protector, just a temporary owner. All I can control is what I buy and when, not what happens after a buyer of one of my coins takes possession.

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • Dave99B
    Dave99B Posts: 8,947 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Copper. Lots of doctors are at work 24x7.

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • braddick
    braddick Posts: 25,183 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I am going to go with early gold. There is such a strong incentive as the price differences are quite large between grades.

  • Elcontador
    Elcontador Posts: 7,743 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Like with early coppers, Draped Bust Dollars. Many straight graded here as well.

    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,131 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Regardless of metal or series, it’s the coins that offer sufficient upside and a favorable risk-reward ratio. If you’re focused on a particular series, you might be overlooking countless other dangerous possibilities.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • CharlotteDude
    CharlotteDude Posts: 3,318 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Early gold... as in 1795 - 1834 gold. Along with early Copper, probably the most doctored/manipulated segment out there.

    Got Crust....y gold?
  • Boosibri
    Boosibri Posts: 12,714 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    With such a reactive metal like copper, where is the boundary between conserving and doctoring? Removing corrosion vs altering color? Brushing?

    Latin American Collection

  • JimW
    JimW Posts: 617 ✭✭✭✭
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    What is it about early copper (or early issues in general) that makes it difficult for TPGs to detect it?

    Successful BST Transactions: erwindoc, VTchaser, moursund, robkool, RelicKING, Herb_T, Meltdown, ElmerFusterpuck, airplanenut

  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,749 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I would think Morgan dollars would be near the top of the list if artificially toning is considered doctoring.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • topstuf
    topstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @JimW said:
    What is it about early copper (or early issues in general) that makes it difficult for TPGs to detect it?

    Because NOBODY can..... 100%
    Time alters copper more than anything else. Sooooo.... with a surface degraded by mystery forces, who's to know....really?

  • Sonorandesertrat
    Sonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 7, 2020 5:38PM
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    @Boosibri said:
    With such a reactive metal like copper, where is the boundary between conserving and doctoring? Removing corrosion vs altering color? Brushing?

    Moving metal. Brushing can certainly leave fine hairlines, but removing corrosion will expose a surface disturbance that is usually smoothed out and then a darkening agent is applied to hide the work. Just about any early copper that looks artificially darkened was likely worked on beforehand.

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    As long as people want to pay ridiculous premiums for any coin that has half a rainbow on it, EVERY coin including modern clads are at risk.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • keets
    keets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Peace Dollars.

  • Greeniejr
    Greeniejr Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
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    @Boosibri said:
    With such a reactive metal like copper, where is the boundary between conserving and doctoring? Removing corrosion vs altering color? Brushing?

    This is spot on. I think the term is that Copper is a living metal. Copper needs to breathe. It is not like gold where it is extremely stable and assuming stored reasonably well will not change. Maybe one of the EAC guys could please step in here but the oil put on early copper actually helps stabilize it and keep it from changing. The whole slab thing has thrown EAC collectors for a loop changing the way it is collected and preserved. In some ways as far as "doctoring" it is probably better to view these coins more like ancients than moderns.

  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Modern stuff that can be bought in quantity for cheap (ASEs) or face value (clad) and AT'ed. Little to no downside. If it comes out unslabbable, someone will still pay for pretty colors. If it gets in a holder, the value skyrockets.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • Jimnight
    Jimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Morgan Dollars.

  • 3keepSECRETif2rDEAD
    3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    ...any and every coin that ever left the US Mint ;)

  • highwayman1
    highwayman1 Posts: 107 ✭✭✭
    edited July 7, 2020 6:37PM
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    The most commonly collected coin is the coin most altered.

    "He who loves silver will not be satisfied with silver, nor he who loves abundance, with increase. This also is vanity.
    When goods increase, they increase who eat them -- so what profit have the owners, except to see them with their eyes?"
    "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man’s all.
    For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil."
    "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."
    http://www.youtube.com/user/alohabibleprophecy/videos

  • keyman64
    keyman64 Posts: 15,650 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Valuable ones.

    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner. :smile:
  • 87redcivic
    87redcivic Posts: 153 ✭✭✭
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    Cleaned coins (as a group) being doctored to make the cleaning less noticable.

  • JimW
    JimW Posts: 617 ✭✭✭✭
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    @topstuf said:

    @JimW said:
    What is it about early copper (or early issues in general) that makes it difficult for TPGs to detect it?

    Because NOBODY can..... 100%
    Time alters copper more than anything else. Sooooo.... with a surface degraded by mystery forces, who's to know....really?

    Thank you for the response! Based on posts of others, it seems to be well known there is a lot of doctoring going on in early copper. How are they able to make this statement i.e., time vs doctoring, if people can't really identify it?
    To be clear, I am not challenging the assertion - just wondering how this conclusion is arrived at.
    Is it just that 'insiders' know people actively engaged in the practice and those coins submitted to TPGs tend to straight grade?

    Successful BST Transactions: erwindoc, VTchaser, moursund, robkool, RelicKING, Herb_T, Meltdown, ElmerFusterpuck, airplanenut

  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @JimW said:

    @topstuf said:

    @JimW said:
    What is it about early copper (or early issues in general) that makes it difficult for TPGs to detect it?

    Because NOBODY can..... 100%
    Time alters copper more than anything else. Sooooo.... with a surface degraded by mystery forces, who's to know....really?

    Thank you for the response! Based on posts of others, it seems to be well known there is a lot of doctoring going on in early copper. How are they able to make this statement i.e., time vs doctoring, if people can't really identify it?
    To be clear, I am not challenging the assertion - just wondering how this conclusion is arrived at.
    Is it just that 'insiders' know people actively engaged in the practice and those coins submitted to TPGs tend to straight grade?

    I don't think I'd say that they can't tell. A certain amount of lack of originality is tolerated on early 19th century coins of all denominations. Most silver had been cleaned at one time and re-toned, for example. It's considered market acceptable

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • johnny9434
    johnny9434 Posts: 34,051 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Any of it. jmo

  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Coins people will pay premiums for.

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • TwoSides2aCoin
    TwoSides2aCoin Posts: 45,216 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Money drives money harder, at the doctor's office.

  • shorecoll
    shorecoll Posts: 5,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    There are also issues in early copper as to what is market acceptable, and how that can change. I'm thinking of hits, toned over scratches vs gouges, corrosion and environmental damage, etc. Sometimes a coin will slab, sometimes it won't and it can change over time. It may also matter who submits it.

    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • coinkat
    coinkat Posts: 24,542 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Those that have the greatest potential of creating a financial windfall. Doctoring is about deception fueled by greed.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It is not the type of coin... It is any coin whose resale will attract a significant profit by the effort expended to make it worthwhile. 'Doctoring' coins is, for some, a profession. Certainly the accelerated tarnish market in silver has been - and continues to be - a profitable endeavor. Cheers, RickO

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