I am soliciting your help on this issue. Please respond as soon as possible as I am going to air this in the letters to the editor of my newspaper and would like to include your response.
@roadrunner said:
Years back almost everything of significant value HAD to go by REG MAIL because the payout limits on insured mail was $300-$500. Are the limits now multiples of that today?
Priority mail can be insured for up to $5k currently. It's not cheap compared to adding insurance on a Registered parcel, which also has a much higher maximum, obviously.
I lIke your input. The congress representative are there to help their constituents. They cannot help against a private company, but they can help against another government agency, so good call on that! I did not think about it.
As more members of the discussion board are commenting, it seems the best and strongest avenue to help our OP would be to make an argument regarding the bullion status of the coin.
I hope he is not discouraged and will take up this fight. The issue can be summarized as: The USPS is acting in good faith regarding their investigation, but they have to be corrected on the item in question: it is a collector coin, not bullion because of ..... That is where our OP has room for an effective appeal. Also, what topstuf advised is brilliant and would not hurt the case, but could greatly enhance things.
The OP needs to tell us the what exact coin it was so we can help with arguments that it is numismatic.
derryb,
LOL, I like your example of bringing a box with a dog in it barking. If it is barking and the postal employee can hear it, it is natural for the employee to comment on it and ask what it is or say certain live animals are not allowed. That kind of commentary by a postal employee is going to be helpful in guiding the customer to avoid a mistake. Someone walking in the post office and wanting to insure a small package for ~$1600 is going to raise an eyebrow, and this will work in the customer's favor because he would claim its a gold coin and the employee would then advise to register it if it met this category or advise registered mail would not be necessary since its a collector's item. A conversation like that would normally come up.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
@Bodin said:
At NO POINT am I asked or told as I purchase insurance that coins/bullion is NOT insured for more than $15.
But lease feel free to buy as much as you would like!
Actually, you ARE told, implicitly. It is in the conditions and terms which you accept when you purchase the insurance. Always read the fine print.
Thanks for the comment. My issue isn't that I've lost the money, but instead that I'm sold insurance that does not cover what I'm paying for.
@derryb said:
I haven't received a registered package in a while. For those that have are they still getting signatures at the door, or are they signing for the recipient (as they are with non registered signature requirements) and leaving it in the mail box (due to virus concerns).
My carrier asks for a signature if it's registered. Else, leaves me a note.
@stownsin said:
That is horrible. I would be absolutely enraged if that happened to me. It didn't happen to me and I even feel angry just imagining how you must be feeling.
My advice? When you get that check...send it back to them. That is an insult to you.
Is it? Or are they following their policies and procedures, which are spelled out to customers, if the customer so choses to read them?
If the coin was numismatic in nature, then perhaps the OP has a chance to redeem his loss.
It should be a crime to insure and collect $$$ for something that you don't actually honor and insure. No different than stealing in my book.
Nope. It would be like placing $50. in quarters in a parking meter that only allows up to $5. worth of time. Too bad, so sad. READ the print- know what YOU are doing.
This analogy doesn't work. Sorry.
When you pay a meter, you can see as you continue to feed the meter, that you are not covered for more time.
Sorry to hear about your situation. It's certainly worth your while to at least contest the result... but I suspect it will not go your way... unless as mentioned, the item(s) were gold coins and the case can be made they were numismatic.
One item.... if you are contesting the decision, I recommend do not cash the check. Doing so, in certain circumstances, can be interpreted as 'accepting the terms and conditions'... and thus may work against any further compensation. (but I'm not a lawyer so what do I know)
Good luck on your endeavors to get satisfactory conclusion on the situation. Most of us have probably had our issues with the USPS at various times also.
@abcde12345 said:
I've been accused of thinking like a Libertarian yet do believe LESS government and more PERSONAL responsibility is vital to not only individual successful lives, also a thriving nation. Too many lash out when THEY error and blame other entities (such as Government). It is NOT other peoples jobs in life to guide you through yours. Educate yourself when it comes to your personal matter and business and act accordingly. You (and your loved ones) will be happier for it.
They have no problem collecting money for something they don't even insure, That's stealing no matter how you try to spin it.
^^ this is my issue.
NOT the fact that I missed the fine print.
@derryb said:
I haven't received a registered package in a while. For those that have are they still getting signatures at the door, or are they signing for the recipient (as they are with non registered signature requirements) and leaving it in the mail box (due to virus concerns).
Mine are all being left without a need for a signature. I picked up a FedEx package the other day and didn't have to sign there, either.
@roadrunner said:
Years back almost everything of significant value HAD to go by REG MAIL because the payout limits on insured mail was $300-$500. Are the limits now multiples of that today?
First Class, Priority, and Express can be insured up to $5000. Outside of Express (which I believe has the same insurance rates as Registered), it's around $700 where Registered is cheaper than regular insurance I may be off by a few hundred if rates have changed since the last time I did that math.
@Bodin said:
"At NO POINT am I asked or told as I purchase insurance that coins/bullion is NOT insured for more than $15."
"My issue isn't that I've lost the money, but instead that I'm sold insurance that does not cover what I'm paying for."
So when you disclosed to the postal clerk that you were insuring coin/bullion, they didn't inform you it was insured for only $15 and just took your money anyway?
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
i empathize with the OP, that is a tough hit to take. seeing as how exemptions are probably the #2 most important thing to know, they should at least give a few sentences to give a feel for what they will not cover in plain sight. does the word coins or bullion (see specifics here) etc take up too much room? i think for that kind of loss, i would have to rip into someone. probably shake their hand or give a smile afterwards but not before some teeth sharpening went down.
this is a subject that has so far been discussed, speculated, contested, researched, posted and reposted about so that it is almost possible there is more info in our archives than on the usps website.
usually it comes about from a coin being shipped via ebay/pp through usps but this is still pretty close.
@Bodin - if you haven't already made a thread about the coin(s) loss, or other item(s), care to give us a heads-up to keep an eye out for?
That's kind of you to ask.
That said, it was a $20 1924 PCGS MS64.
I cracked it out for a film I worked on several years ago.
My expertise is Inaugural medals/tokens/badges, not bullion.
I finally put up for sale and learned an expensive lesson about bullion.
@Bodin said:
At NO POINT am I asked or told as I purchase insurance that coins/bullion is NOT insured for more than $15.
But lease feel free to buy as much as you would like!
Actually, you ARE told, implicitly. It is in the conditions and terms which you accept when you purchase the insurance. Always read the fine print.
Thanks for the comment. My issue isn't that I've lost the money, but instead that I'm sold insurance that does not cover what I'm paying for.
Exactly how did the transaction with the PO go down? Did you state that you were shipping bullion and wished to insure it for $1500? Did the clerk (unsolicited) ask you if you'd like to purchase insurance on the package?
Or did you simply walk up with a package (of unspecified contents) and ask to insure it for $1500? If so, your grievance is unsupportable in my view. In that case, you weren't "sold" something, you voluntarily purchased it without verifying that it was appropriate for your intended purpose. IMHO, of course.
@JimW said:
There is a very fine line here... when I insure something, I am not asked specific questions about what the item is.
So unless I actually state what it is, how is the PO employee supposed to advise me on the specific policy related to the item I am shipping?
That said, it might be a better policy on their behalf to tell you what types of items have limited coverage....
The bullion restriction to registered mail has been discussed numerous times here on the forum. It is the mailers responsibility to know the rules and limitations on placing something into the USPS system. The Domestic Mail Manual is the book of rules. There are certain rules for certain items. Sure, the postal employee will bring something to your attention if he is aware of it. For example if he hears a dog barking in your package, he will tell you you can't mail a dog (there is something in the manual that does allow the mailing of live chickens. lol) However, he is not aware of what is in your package and is only allowed to ask if it is fragile, liquid, perishable, or potentially hazardous.
Would the OP please ID specifically what was in the package? USPS does not specify what it considers to be bullion in its written rules. This could be our first indication of where they draw that invisible line.
Thanks for the message.
a $20 1924 (former.cracked) PCGS MS64
@ricko said:
The occasions that I shipped gold coins, I fully insured and shipped registered. All worked well... though each shipment took about two weeks from origination to destination. Cheers, RickO
I'm with you ricko. In the 10 years I've been shipping coins, this is my first real problem. Sure, I've had the occasional coin go lost, but the safety nets are tracking and insurance. They've rescued me in the past. This time I missed the fine print.
Lesson learned and I'm passing on to you all that like me may not have known.
A 1924 $20 gold piece is not bullion. That is a collector's coin, a numismatic item. There is a lot of evidence that supports it is not bullion, including, the federal government's definition according to one post here. I think you have a good appeal case.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
i empathize with the OP, that is a tough hit to take. seeing as how exemptions are probably the #2 most important thing to know, they should at least give a few sentences to give a feel for what they will not cover in plain sight. does the word coins or bullion (see specifics here) etc take up too much room? i think for that kind of loss, i would have to rip into someone. probably shake their hand or give a smile afterwards but not before some teeth sharpening went down.
this is a subject that has so far been discussed, speculated, contested, researched, posted and reposted about so that it is almost possible there is more info in our archives than on the usps website.
usually it comes about from a coin being shipped via ebay/pp through usps but this is still pretty close.
@Bodin - if you haven't already made a thread about the coin(s) loss, or other item(s), care to give us a heads-up to keep an eye out for?
That's kind of you to ask.
That said, it was a $20 1924 PCGS MS64.
I cracked it out for a film I worked on several years ago.
My expertise is Inaugural medals/tokens/badges, not bullion.
I finally put up for sale and learned an expensive lesson about bullion.
Sounds like you lost a numismatic coin and not bullion. Sounds like you have excellent grounds for an appeal.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@messydesk said:
I guess to add insult to injury, he's not even getting the $50 in free coverage that Priority Mail gets you. I reiterate my question from yesterday, however. What was in the package?
@MFeld said:
If you’re looking for help/suggestions, I think you’ll do better with a different, much more specific thread title.
Agree. This title is up for the "Worst Title" award.
Very ironic considering that the title does a very poor job of communicating the content, and the thread itself is all about proper lack of communication of the USPS policy.
You actually took the time to write this out.
Thanks for contributing.
A $20 1924 PCGS MS64 should qualify as a numismatic or collectible item; as such you do have a valid reason to contest the decision. Unfortunately will probably take some time and hassle.
One sticking point could be whether you listed it under 'bullion' category when selling... if so, USPS could use that as validation for their decision. Again, good luck however you proceed.
@Bodin said:
"At NO POINT am I asked or told as I purchase insurance that coins/bullion is NOT insured for more than $15."
"My issue isn't that I've lost the money, but instead that I'm sold insurance that does not cover what I'm paying for."
So when you disclosed to the postal clerk that you were insuring coin/bullion, they didn't inform you it was insured for only $15 and just took your money anyway?
Clerk
"And what is in here that you're insuring?"
Me
"a coin"
.... I believe that's how it went. That's how it usually goes.
@abcde12345 said:
I've been accused of thinking like a Libertarian yet do believe LESS government and more PERSONAL responsibility is vital to not only individual successful lives, also a thriving nation. Too many lash out when THEY error and blame other entities (such as Government). It is NOT other peoples jobs in life to guide you through yours. Educate yourself when it comes to your personal matter and business and act accordingly. You (and your loved ones) will be happier for it.
They have no problem collecting money for something they don't even insure, That's stealing no matter how you try to spin it.
^^ this is my issue.
NOT the fact that I missed the fine print.
Not quite. If you want to make a legal argument here, they DO insure it. They just only provide $15 of coverage regardless of the premium you pay. You can insure any package for any amount up to the USPS limit (you could buy $5000 of insurance for a chewed up broken #2 pencil), but the onus is on the shipper when there is a loss to prove the value and coverage eligibility. Going back to that pencil, odds are they'll only pay out 3 cents, so did they collect a premium on $4999.97 of coverage that they didn't provide? No. It was the shipper's choice to pay for extra coverage, even if there was a limit to what would be paid out. It just happens in this case that with your level of shipping, you would have had the same $15 in coverage had you not bought insurance at all.
I've seen a lot of people ask, and I'll ask, as well: what was being shipped? It's wholly relevant to the conversation.
Good point on that! If the OP listed it as bullion, then that is a problem, of course. However, one can argue that it was a mistake or oversight on his part (a mistake that is not uncommon on ebay) and a third party letter from an expert can squash that. Another issue is if there was any proof what the package contained. If it is an eBay transaction record, then that should be easier. I am just curious to know how the post office came to conclude that the content of the package was bullion.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
@messydesk said:
I guess to add insult to injury, he's not even getting the $50 in free coverage that Priority Mail gets you. I reiterate my question from yesterday, however. What was in the package?
a $20 1924 (former.cracked) PCGS MS64
Numismatic coin, then. Appeal and let us know how it goes.
@messydesk said:
I guess to add insult to injury, he's not even getting the $50 in free coverage that Priority Mail gets you. I reiterate my question from yesterday, however. What was in the package?
a $20 1924 (former.cracked) PCGS MS64
a raw $20 gold saint is easily proven to be numismatic. Appeal your claim with an argument that while gold, it is not bullion. It is a collectible coin. Price paid (compared to spot) will further your argument.
Are they really this stupid, or are they destroying the dollar on purpose?
@tincup said:
A $20 1924 PCGS MS64 should qualify as a numismatic or collectible item; as such you do have a valid reason to contest the decision. Unfortunately will probably take some time and hassle.
One sticking point could be whether you listed it under 'bullion' category when selling... if so, USPS could use that as validation for their decision. Again, good luck however you proceed.
USPS does not know what ebay category it was sold in unless your proof of value shows them. Bestto use the Paypal transaction details that will show only title of the ebay listing along with price.
Are they really this stupid, or are they destroying the dollar on purpose?
if you haven't already made a thread about the coin(s) loss, or other item(s), care to give us a heads-up to keep an eye out for?
@Bodin said:
That's kind of you to ask.
That said, it was a $20 1924 PCGS MS64.
thanks. it may be a wrestling match but if you get your ducks in a row, some good points in this thread, keep it simple, provide the necessary proof of what and how you sold, i think you should be good for an appeal.
i know you may be overwhelmed with all the various posts in this thread but kind of a side point; it would be interesting to read/hear a legal argument about whether gold/silver/platinum etc coins issued as legal tender cannot be considered as bullion even though it is because of bullion/precious metal prices that causes the legal tender to be so valuable. i'm sure if bullion went to $0.00 across the board, without world collapse, there would still be numismatic value. this is getting sticky with a lot more definitions and points needing to be made, so i'll stop here as it is a conversation for another thread and day.
keep it simple, keep up the fight and let us know how it pans out please. i'm big on closure.
The fair market value for collectible stamps of philatelic value or for coins of numismatic value, determined as follows:
-The fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers.
-The date of the determined fair market value must be the most recent available (but before the mailing date).
As has been said, it should be easily proven that this coin has numismatic value. Whatever led to the original decision (whether you first described it as bullion or they decided it was bullion), correct that and you should be fine. Now imagine if it didn't take 60 replies to find out the contents of the package.
The fair market value for collectible stamps of philatelic value or for coins of numismatic value, determined as follows:
-The fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers.
-The date of the determined fair market value must be the most recent available (but before the mailing date).
As has been said, it should be easily proven that this coin has numismatic value. Whatever led to the original decision (whether you first described it as bullion or they decided it was bullion), correct that and you should be fine. Now imagine if it didn't take 60 replies to find out the contents of the package.
If he sold a $20 lib for $1599, it is hard to argue that it is anything other than bullion.
The fair market value for collectible stamps of philatelic value or for coins of numismatic value, determined as follows:
-The fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers.
-The date of the determined fair market value must be the most recent available (but before the mailing date).
As has been said, it should be easily proven that this coin has numismatic value. Whatever led to the original decision (whether you first described it as bullion or they decided it was bullion), correct that and you should be fine. Now imagine if it didn't take 60 replies to find out the contents of the package.
USPS method of determining fair market value of numismatic items does not guarantee that USPS will not consider them bullion for insurance claim purposes. What is need is clarification from USPS once and for all on what USPS considers bullion to be and what precious metal products it does not consider to be bullion. Otherwise they are free to consider gold jewelry as bullion.
Are they really this stupid, or are they destroying the dollar on purpose?
@Bodin said:
"At NO POINT am I asked or told as I purchase insurance that coins/bullion is NOT insured for more than $15."
"My issue isn't that I've lost the money, but instead that I'm sold insurance that does not cover what I'm paying for."
So when you disclosed to the postal clerk that you were insuring coin/bullion, they didn't inform you it was insured for only $15 and just took your money anyway?
Clerk
"And what is in here that you're insuring?"
Me
"a coin"
.... I believe that's how it went. That's how it usually goes.
Then neither the postal clerk nor you were in the wrong. Coins are covered and the person who processed the claim is wrong. Appeal and you should be fine.
609 Filing Indemnity Claims for Loss or Damage
4.0 Claims
4.1 Payable Claim
g. For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I had one "serious" brush with the law (a state tax issue) and against all odds I won my case.
I will spare the details here, but the most important lesson I learned is this: What seems reasonable to you is not important in a legal (or pseudo legal) case. All that matters is what the law allows. Detach yourself from your emotions and learn the law and use it to your advantage.
Based on the way the OP has been responding to posts I don't think he is quite there yet, but if he is interested in adopting a new approach I think he has a decent case.
My own opinions:
1) That coin is a numismatic item regardless of how close its price is to the bullion value. The fact that it is a candidate for grading by a TPG supports this, for example.
2) It trades based on date/mm/denomination/condition, not simply weight and purity.
3) The 1933 law banning gold bullion possession exempted this coin as a numismatic collectable.
4) The coin is not a "widget" - that exact coin was what was bought/sold. With bullion it is all interchangeable.
The OP is hung up on a losing argument that will not likely be successful on appeal. There are limitations to what insurance covers, and he paid for insurance for something that - based on USPS interpretation - was not insurable. He needs to fight the interpretation, not the underlying rules. (If you successfully fight to get the rules changed that might help in the future but would not be retroactive.)
To challenge their determination that the coin is merely bullion, get your arguments lined up, anticipate their counterarguments and come up with responses in advance, and hit them hard.
@derryb said:
I haven't received a registered package in a while. For those that have are they still getting signatures at the door, or are they signing for the recipient (as they are with non registered signature requirements) and leaving it in the mail box (due to virus concerns).
Mine are all being left without a need for a signature. I picked up a FedEx package the other day and didn't have to sign there, either.
@roadrunner said:
Years back almost everything of significant value HAD to go by REG MAIL because the payout limits on insured mail was $300-$500. Are the limits now multiples of that today?
First Class, Priority, and Express can be insured up to $5000. Outside of Express (which I believe has the same insurance rates as Registered), it's around $700 where Registered is cheaper than regular insurance I may be off by a few hundred if rates have changed since the last time I did that math.
I should add....the average to get a claim paid is 2 appeals these days, been there and done that on a registered package with photos of everything in the package.. Hey...anyone notice they didn't even offer face value?
@blitzdude said:
Looks like we have a few incompetent ex postal employees up in here. If you charge for a service for which you fail to provide you are a thief. They can't go bankrupt fast enough.
The PO is fine and provides valuable services. Forcing special long term pension funding on them was BS as they really aren't unprofitable. There's always responsibilities on both sides. Theres a reason registered mail exists, its just a fact of life that trying to save a few bucks can always cost you more in the end.
@blitzdude said:
Looks like we have a few incompetent ex postal employees up in here. If you charge for a service for which you fail to provide you are a thief. They can't go bankrupt fast enough.
The PO is fine and provides valuable services. Forcing special long term pension funding on them was BS as they really aren't unprofitable. There's always responsibilities on both sides. Theres a reason registered mail exists, its just a fact of life that trying to save a few bucks can always cost you more in the end.
Ironically, Registered Mail would have been cheaper in this case, so going Insured didn't even save money.
@amwldcoin said:
Express mail insurance rates are now the same as 1st class. I used to ship express mail insead of registered a lot until they changed it.
@derryb said:
I haven't received a registered package in a while. For those that have are they still getting signatures at the door, or are they signing for the recipient (as they are with non registered signature requirements) and leaving it in the mail box (due to virus concerns).
Mine are all being left without a need for a signature. I picked up a FedEx package the other day and didn't have to sign there, either.
@roadrunner said:
Years back almost everything of significant value HAD to go by REG MAIL because the payout limits on insured mail was $300-$500. Are the limits now multiples of that today?
First Class, Priority, and Express can be insured up to $5000. Outside of Express (which I believe has the same insurance rates as Registered), it's around $700 where Registered is cheaper than regular insurance I may be off by a few hundred if rates have changed since the last time I did that math.
I stand corrected. Didn't realize that change had been made (I have my own insurance policy, so while I try to stay current, these details aren't a priority for me to follow).
Collectible silver and gold bars aren’t covered either. I found out the hard away.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That was some sound advice. You are right, in a legal or semi-legal case, one has to fight using arguments within the parameters of the law. Here, the definition of bullion is the target to argue. Things can seem unfair, but those arguments won't work in an appeal.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
Wow. Two pages of back and forth, most of which would have been avoided had the OP volunteered the contents of the package in the first post.
I agree that if the OP makes the case that the insured object was a numismatic item and not bullion that he will ultimately prevail. Getting congressmen involved won't help anything. Right or wrong, the agency is obliged BY LAW to follow the letter of the law and their own policies. Should the policy be more clearly stated? Probably, yes, but that's a fight for another day. The same issues of incomplete understanding of what is covered pertains to all sorts of insurance and the onus is on the insured to verify that their understanding is correct.
Just file the appeal, provide documentation, and they'll have no choice but to follow their own policies which clearly state that numismatic items are covered. This will be simple if you provide proof of the agreed sale price in excess of bullion value at the time the sale occurred.
I agree completely that, aside from the obligatory checks for "dangerous" items, the clerk has no business asking what's in the package. It's up to the sender to research what constitutes the coverage needed.
If the OP was as obtuse with the Post Office as he was with the beginning of this thread, I can definitely see why there was and is an issue.
My position of wishing nothing but the best for the OP is slowly decaying.
@ms71 said:
I agree completely that, aside from the obligatory checks for "dangerous" items, the clerk has no business asking what's in the package. It's up to the sender to research what constitutes the coverage needed.
in all fairness to the OP, the DMM is thick and not reader friendly. It is government gobbledygook at best. Most of us just assume one type of mail is the same as others when it comes to insurance. I for one have taken every opportunity in forum posts concerning usps, claims and insurance to bring the 'registered mail requirement for bullion' to the attention of others knowing that sooner or later we would be reading a thread like this.
So, one more time for those that did not read this entire thread "usps insurance claims for bullion (for more than $15) will only be paid if sent usps registered insured." As this thread shows, we need clarification from usps on exactly what it considers to be bullion.
Are they really this stupid, or are they destroying the dollar on purpose?
At a certain insured value, shipping an item registered mail actually becomes cheaper. Last price comparison I did put that insured value at around $750 where it was more cost effective to use registered. The drawback of course is, because of the added security, a registered shipment will normally take 5-10 days. This is not a problem for my buyers as they are advised of my shipping method before purchase. Never had a lost registered shipment in over 20 years of selling/shipping hundred of gold coins.
Are they really this stupid, or are they destroying the dollar on purpose?
If I'm mailing an item valued over $1000 I always send it registered. It may be slow but it's secure and I'll always trade security for expedience. At any rate, a 1924 double eagle isn't bullion, so an explanation of that fact should produce a ruling in your favor.
Comments
Your letter to your congressperson:
Dear (Rep/Sen) Gabloovich,
The USPS on ...................... informed me that.......................................
..................................... blah
......................................................blah......................................
I am soliciting your help on this issue. Please respond as soon as possible as I am going to air this in the letters to the editor of my newspaper and would like to include your response.
Thank you,
..............................................
That’s tough. I’m sorry to hear this.
Priority mail can be insured for up to $5k currently. It's not cheap compared to adding insurance on a Registered parcel, which also has a much higher maximum, obviously.
You're absolutely right.
I'm content with thread title.
Thanks Mark!
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
Topstuf,
I lIke your input. The congress representative are there to help their constituents. They cannot help against a private company, but they can help against another government agency, so good call on that! I did not think about it.
As more members of the discussion board are commenting, it seems the best and strongest avenue to help our OP would be to make an argument regarding the bullion status of the coin.
I hope he is not discouraged and will take up this fight. The issue can be summarized as: The USPS is acting in good faith regarding their investigation, but they have to be corrected on the item in question: it is a collector coin, not bullion because of ..... That is where our OP has room for an effective appeal. Also, what topstuf advised is brilliant and would not hurt the case, but could greatly enhance things.
The OP needs to tell us the what exact coin it was so we can help with arguments that it is numismatic.
derryb,
LOL, I like your example of bringing a box with a dog in it barking. If it is barking and the postal employee can hear it, it is natural for the employee to comment on it and ask what it is or say certain live animals are not allowed. That kind of commentary by a postal employee is going to be helpful in guiding the customer to avoid a mistake. Someone walking in the post office and wanting to insure a small package for ~$1600 is going to raise an eyebrow, and this will work in the customer's favor because he would claim its a gold coin and the employee would then advise to register it if it met this category or advise registered mail would not be necessary since its a collector's item. A conversation like that would normally come up.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Thanks for the comment. My issue isn't that I've lost the money, but instead that I'm sold insurance that does not cover what I'm paying for.
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
My carrier asks for a signature if it's registered. Else, leaves me a note.
"Why isn't it criminal to try and insure bullion when it is uninsurable? How about filing a false claim on an ineligible item?"
Interesting point.
This analogy doesn't work. Sorry.
When you pay a meter, you can see as you continue to feed the meter, that you are not covered for more time.
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
Sorry to hear about your situation. It's certainly worth your while to at least contest the result... but I suspect it will not go your way... unless as mentioned, the item(s) were gold coins and the case can be made they were numismatic.
One item.... if you are contesting the decision, I recommend do not cash the check. Doing so, in certain circumstances, can be interpreted as 'accepting the terms and conditions'... and thus may work against any further compensation. (but I'm not a lawyer so what do I know)
Good luck on your endeavors to get satisfactory conclusion on the situation. Most of us have probably had our issues with the USPS at various times also.
^^ this is my issue.
NOT the fact that I missed the fine print.
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
Mine are all being left without a need for a signature. I picked up a FedEx package the other day and didn't have to sign there, either.
First Class, Priority, and Express can be insured up to $5000. Outside of Express (which I believe has the same insurance rates as Registered), it's around $700 where Registered is cheaper than regular insurance I may be off by a few hundred if rates have changed since the last time I did that math.
Again, not the issue.
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
So when you disclosed to the postal clerk that you were insuring coin/bullion, they didn't inform you it was insured for only $15 and just took your money anyway?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
That's kind of you to ask.
That said, it was a $20 1924 PCGS MS64.
I cracked it out for a film I worked on several years ago.
My expertise is Inaugural medals/tokens/badges, not bullion.
I finally put up for sale and learned an expensive lesson about bullion.
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
Exactly how did the transaction with the PO go down? Did you state that you were shipping bullion and wished to insure it for $1500? Did the clerk (unsolicited) ask you if you'd like to purchase insurance on the package?
Or did you simply walk up with a package (of unspecified contents) and ask to insure it for $1500? If so, your grievance is unsupportable in my view. In that case, you weren't "sold" something, you voluntarily purchased it without verifying that it was appropriate for your intended purpose. IMHO, of course.
Thanks for the message.
a $20 1924 (former.cracked) PCGS MS64
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
I'm with you ricko. In the 10 years I've been shipping coins, this is my first real problem. Sure, I've had the occasional coin go lost, but the safety nets are tracking and insurance. They've rescued me in the past. This time I missed the fine print.
Lesson learned and I'm passing on to you all that like me may not have known.
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
Bodin,
A 1924 $20 gold piece is not bullion. That is a collector's coin, a numismatic item. There is a lot of evidence that supports it is not bullion, including, the federal government's definition according to one post here. I think you have a good appeal case.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Sounds like you lost a numismatic coin and not bullion. Sounds like you have excellent grounds for an appeal.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
a $20 1924 (former.cracked) PCGS MS64
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
You actually took the time to write this out.
Thanks for contributing.
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
A $20 1924 PCGS MS64 should qualify as a numismatic or collectible item; as such you do have a valid reason to contest the decision. Unfortunately will probably take some time and hassle.
One sticking point could be whether you listed it under 'bullion' category when selling... if so, USPS could use that as validation for their decision. Again, good luck however you proceed.
Clerk
"And what is in here that you're insuring?"
Me
"a coin"
.... I believe that's how it went. That's how it usually goes.
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
Not quite. If you want to make a legal argument here, they DO insure it. They just only provide $15 of coverage regardless of the premium you pay. You can insure any package for any amount up to the USPS limit (you could buy $5000 of insurance for a chewed up broken #2 pencil), but the onus is on the shipper when there is a loss to prove the value and coverage eligibility. Going back to that pencil, odds are they'll only pay out 3 cents, so did they collect a premium on $4999.97 of coverage that they didn't provide? No. It was the shipper's choice to pay for extra coverage, even if there was a limit to what would be paid out. It just happens in this case that with your level of shipping, you would have had the same $15 in coverage had you not bought insurance at all.
I've seen a lot of people ask, and I'll ask, as well: what was being shipped? It's wholly relevant to the conversation.
tincup,
Good point on that! If the OP listed it as bullion, then that is a problem, of course. However, one can argue that it was a mistake or oversight on his part (a mistake that is not uncommon on ebay) and a third party letter from an expert can squash that. Another issue is if there was any proof what the package contained. If it is an eBay transaction record, then that should be easier. I am just curious to know how the post office came to conclude that the content of the package was bullion.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Numismatic coin, then. Appeal and let us know how it goes.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Lots of salt around here...
I think Joe said it best:
Collector, occasional seller
a raw $20 gold saint is easily proven to be numismatic. Appeal your claim with an argument that while gold, it is not bullion. It is a collectible coin. Price paid (compared to spot) will further your argument.
Are they really this stupid, or are they destroying the dollar on purpose?
USPS does not know what ebay category it was sold in unless your proof of value shows them. Bestto use the Paypal transaction details that will show only title of the ebay listing along with price.
Are they really this stupid, or are they destroying the dollar on purpose?
if you haven't already made a thread about the coin(s) loss, or other item(s), care to give us a heads-up to keep an eye out for?
thanks. it may be a wrestling match but if you get your ducks in a row, some good points in this thread, keep it simple, provide the necessary proof of what and how you sold, i think you should be good for an appeal.
i know you may be overwhelmed with all the various posts in this thread but kind of a side point; it would be interesting to read/hear a legal argument about whether gold/silver/platinum etc coins issued as legal tender cannot be considered as bullion even though it is because of bullion/precious metal prices that causes the legal tender to be so valuable. i'm sure if bullion went to $0.00 across the board, without world collapse, there would still be numismatic value. this is getting sticky with a lot more definitions and points needing to be made, so i'll stop here as it is a conversation for another thread and day.
keep it simple, keep up the fight and let us know how it pans out please. i'm big on closure.
Right out of the DMM:
The fair market value for collectible stamps of philatelic value or for coins of numismatic value, determined as follows:
-The fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers.
-The date of the determined fair market value must be the most recent available (but before the mailing date).
As has been said, it should be easily proven that this coin has numismatic value. Whatever led to the original decision (whether you first described it as bullion or they decided it was bullion), correct that and you should be fine. Now imagine if it didn't take 60 replies to find out the contents of the package.
If he sold a $20 lib for $1599, it is hard to argue that it is anything other than bullion.
USPS method of determining fair market value of numismatic items does not guarantee that USPS will not consider them bullion for insurance claim purposes. What is need is clarification from USPS once and for all on what USPS considers bullion to be and what precious metal products it does not consider to be bullion. Otherwise they are free to consider gold jewelry as bullion.
Are they really this stupid, or are they destroying the dollar on purpose?
Then neither the postal clerk nor you were in the wrong. Coins are covered and the person who processed the claim is wrong. Appeal and you should be fine.
609 Filing Indemnity Claims for Loss or Damage
4.0 Claims
4.1 Payable Claim
g. For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I had one "serious" brush with the law (a state tax issue) and against all odds I won my case.
I will spare the details here, but the most important lesson I learned is this: What seems reasonable to you is not important in a legal (or pseudo legal) case. All that matters is what the law allows. Detach yourself from your emotions and learn the law and use it to your advantage.
Based on the way the OP has been responding to posts I don't think he is quite there yet, but if he is interested in adopting a new approach I think he has a decent case.
My own opinions:
1) That coin is a numismatic item regardless of how close its price is to the bullion value. The fact that it is a candidate for grading by a TPG supports this, for example.
2) It trades based on date/mm/denomination/condition, not simply weight and purity.
3) The 1933 law banning gold bullion possession exempted this coin as a numismatic collectable.
4) The coin is not a "widget" - that exact coin was what was bought/sold. With bullion it is all interchangeable.
The OP is hung up on a losing argument that will not likely be successful on appeal. There are limitations to what insurance covers, and he paid for insurance for something that - based on USPS interpretation - was not insurable. He needs to fight the interpretation, not the underlying rules. (If you successfully fight to get the rules changed that might help in the future but would not be retroactive.)
To challenge their determination that the coin is merely bullion, get your arguments lined up, anticipate their counterarguments and come up with responses in advance, and hit them hard.
Express mail insurance rates are now the same as 1st class. I used to ship express mail instead of registered a lot until they changed it.
Sorry for your loss @bodin.
PS
I'd love to see some more of your movie/TV appearances sometime.
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
I should add....the average to get a claim paid is 2 appeals these days, been there and done that on a registered package with photos of everything in the package.. Hey...anyone notice they didn't even offer face value?
The PO is fine and provides valuable services. Forcing special long term pension funding on them was BS as they really aren't unprofitable. There's always responsibilities on both sides. Theres a reason registered mail exists, its just a fact of life that trying to save a few bucks can always cost you more in the end.
Ironically, Registered Mail would have been cheaper in this case, so going Insured didn't even save money.
I stand corrected. Didn't realize that change had been made (I have my own insurance policy, so while I try to stay current, these details aren't a priority for me to follow).
Collectible silver and gold bars aren’t covered either. I found out the hard away.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
JBK,
That was some sound advice. You are right, in a legal or semi-legal case, one has to fight using arguments within the parameters of the law. Here, the definition of bullion is the target to argue. Things can seem unfair, but those arguments won't work in an appeal.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Call them antique or vintage paperweights or door stops.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Wow. Two pages of back and forth, most of which would have been avoided had the OP volunteered the contents of the package in the first post.
I agree that if the OP makes the case that the insured object was a numismatic item and not bullion that he will ultimately prevail. Getting congressmen involved won't help anything. Right or wrong, the agency is obliged BY LAW to follow the letter of the law and their own policies. Should the policy be more clearly stated? Probably, yes, but that's a fight for another day. The same issues of incomplete understanding of what is covered pertains to all sorts of insurance and the onus is on the insured to verify that their understanding is correct.
Just file the appeal, provide documentation, and they'll have no choice but to follow their own policies which clearly state that numismatic items are covered. This will be simple if you provide proof of the agreed sale price in excess of bullion value at the time the sale occurred.
I agree completely that, aside from the obligatory checks for "dangerous" items, the clerk has no business asking what's in the package. It's up to the sender to research what constitutes the coverage needed.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
If the OP was as obtuse with the Post Office as he was with the beginning of this thread, I can definitely see why there was and is an issue.
My position of wishing nothing but the best for the OP is slowly decaying.
in all fairness to the OP, the DMM is thick and not reader friendly. It is government gobbledygook at best. Most of us just assume one type of mail is the same as others when it comes to insurance. I for one have taken every opportunity in forum posts concerning usps, claims and insurance to bring the 'registered mail requirement for bullion' to the attention of others knowing that sooner or later we would be reading a thread like this.
So, one more time for those that did not read this entire thread "usps insurance claims for bullion (for more than $15) will only be paid if sent usps registered insured." As this thread shows, we need clarification from usps on exactly what it considers to be bullion.
Are they really this stupid, or are they destroying the dollar on purpose?
At a certain insured value, shipping an item registered mail actually becomes cheaper. Last price comparison I did put that insured value at around $750 where it was more cost effective to use registered. The drawback of course is, because of the added security, a registered shipment will normally take 5-10 days. This is not a problem for my buyers as they are advised of my shipping method before purchase. Never had a lost registered shipment in over 20 years of selling/shipping hundred of gold coins.
Are they really this stupid, or are they destroying the dollar on purpose?
If I'm mailing an item valued over $1000 I always send it registered. It may be slow but it's secure and I'll always trade security for expedience. At any rate, a 1924 double eagle isn't bullion, so an explanation of that fact should produce a ruling in your favor.