Have you ever seen a coin turn in a holder like this?
amwldcoin
Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
I took a picture of this coin on 7/21/14
This is what it looks like today.
0
amwldcoin
Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
No. I have not.
I have seen this happen a couple of times (All on bust dollars). I could be totally wrong but I wonder if someone lightly cloroxed the coin and then it oxidized over the years. The second picture looks like many coins that I have seen that were cloroxed.
i am in somewhat agreement wit zas. i've only seen this a couple/few times but don't recall having the before and after. obviously it is possible to grunge/darken coins so they become gradable but haven't really seen any problems with those coins enough to pursue the issue.
i'm not going to say what may have caused it as there may be more than one cause. storage could exacerbate the surface progression.
It's always been properly stored. I guess a bleached coin could do this...just shocked as I've never seen a bleached coin with such a wholesome dark patina...they usually always look off.
a lot of members on the board with experience regarding bleached and other contaminated coins. i for sure am not saying this is bleach.
the top image looks really good.
There's no winning with TPG holders as prior to being air tight gassing occurred now they can't breathe.
I had an expensive (for me) Draped Bust Half Cent start to develop PVC on the 8 of the date in holder 8 years after I bought it. After that, I will never buy another pre 1815 copper in anything newer than a PCGS OGH.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Yes, the most expensive gold coin I ever purchased turned in its holder. The experience reduced my appetite for expensive gold coins and contributed to my predilection for buying circulated gold coins in OGHs.
They can turn faster than that. I have had an MS-66 graded Oregon Trail half dollar go from bright white to ugly and blotchy in a year and a half. Silly, stupid me broke my own rule and bought a silver coin that had been recently graded. The piece had been dipped, not properly rinsed and now headed south.
@RYK + @BillJones
Of course I've seen coins go south in holders, Especially improperly dipped coins. But this was a lowly VF with what had what appeared to be original hard surfaces! That I have never seen or experienced.
That's a new look for me. Good luck!
So does the grading guarantee cover it? Or would it not since they can’t guarantee things they couldn’t see at the time of encapsulation?
Do you think it needs to be cracked out and dipped in order to arrest the chemical reaction? Not good. Peace Roy
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No.
A dip would completely ruin the coin...acetone may help...I think it's progressed to where it will not change any more.
That's a first for me, too.
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If it was a secure +(which it is not) and went through the sniffer...I would say it should be. PCGS is pretty sensitive to this these days. I had a customer a few years back who had a coin turn on him in a holder. I took it to PCGS and had my wrists slapped. I told him to approach them, and they did conserve it for free...but it was never the same.
Fantastic insight and information here. I learned a LOT from this post. Thanks all.
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Mine was an XF-45
It is one of the reasons that my collecting has gone mostly dormant.
Did it ever look a bit glossy while you owned it?
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Did the grading guarantees not soften the blow?
No, PCGS's guarantee won't cover it.
And, FWIW, I don't believe the Sniffer has been used for years.
Lance.
It was being used when this was graded I believe.
Not when I took the picture in 2014.
There is also the issue of the dealer who sold the coin,
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
>
Perhaps. But the problem was the Sniffer had anosmia.
Lance.
Should this coin be resubmitted to PCGS for conservation? Does the guarantee mean it will keep the assigned grade or PCGS will pay the difference if it down grades?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Great topic and comments made this something to think about. Peace Roy
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in the perfect World it would be nice to back-trace the ownership of a coin like this, all the way to the submitter to PCGS. some sort of sanctions should be considered with a reimbursement of some kind for the owner. especially with expensive coins such as what RYK has experienced, it is hard for me to consider that the submitter didn't have knowledge of what was done. that might be hard to swallow, but truth often is.
my old boss had a Half-Dollar in a PCGS holder, I think it was a 1795 graded XF. this was around 2006-7 but was certainly pre-conservation for PCGS. he called them and they told him to send the coin in. that was followed by a call from HRH when they received it with the question, "Where did you store this, at the bottom of a sewer?" it was bad but they did a fine job of restoration and mailed it back encapsulated at the same grade.
Very disappointing....No way to know for sure what the prior treatment was, but clorox, poorly rinsed, would be one possibility. Really interesting to see the before/after pictures. Cheers, RickO
If the submitter was a dealer he might not have known if the person he bought it from was the culprit. Obviously PCGS didn't notice, so it wasn't obvious
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Looks like an old spray/oil job gone bad. If so will only get worse.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
The dealer who sold me the copper that went bad was one of the most ethical people in the business. I mentioned before I had the coin for 8 years in holder before it started developing PVC. It looked fine to me when I bought it, and it looked fine to him when he sold it to me. I have no issues with him at all and would buy another coin from him in a heartbeat. But if someone sneezes or does who knows what on a coin, who knows what and when something bad will happen to it. No grade guarantee would cover this sort of thing.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
i didn't give it an A+ effort but i was reading some specific language about the shield service recently and saw nothing mentioned about it. it said the coins were still scanned against their database of images but iirc, that was the extent of it.
it was a good read as i saw that modern foreign were not required to go through that service if i understood correctly. if i see that page again, i'll bookmark it and link it here. good to stay at least fairly up-to-date with pcgs tos as things naturally change and change is also forced for a variety of reasons.
i do wonder though as i see some toners that shouldn't get AT imo and i recall some experience from people here being shared over the years about toners vs shield/non-shield and the non-shield got graded significantly more but the toners that made it through were basically blessed. although, that guarantees nothing about people tampering after-the-fact.
such is life.
good thing these issues are really only a pittance of all our interactions with numismatics.
Yes they’re out there like brown dwarfs in the galaxy - seen some at shows marked down or in slab whosalers slab boxes (amazing original toning he was saying for these ugly coins) priced below bid. Any coin has the potential to turn (or tarnish) in a holder for any number of reasons. The atmosphere, heat, humidity, salt air (coin preservation handbook). Risk can be reduced by turning items quickly and hedging bets on big ticket material. Your coin reminds me of some circ peace dollars some collector at a show in Lake Jackson offered me saying he had kept them in his garage. Many were brownish black. The few nicer ones looked like yours.
One guy in coin club likes old green holder material “if coin go bad from submission (pvc flip) or right after would have happened long time ago. One dealer I know keeps his coins in non working freezer on his shrimp boat. He told me over chewing Tabacco, smokes n coffee he gotta move em quick. Not a buyer from him. Do you know how hot it gets In Freeport at the boat dock? ” Gem brilliant bright ogh coins been good sellers for me. Not many like tarnished coins.
MOST coins have been at least minimally touched up by dealers or collectors. The word "original" is highly overused. I'll put a stake in the ground that only 10% of claimed original surfaced coins are. Hah.
Here is a PCGS PR70 that went the other way...it probably depends on the angle of the image, and the background color, at least for this one;
Dec 2016
Jun 2013
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Like previous pic for the old teleTrade throwback. Them were the days
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
wow
Yes the op coin reminds me what one would receive from TTR in old days. Bob said “TTR is where I dump all the low end ones where I am in them at 60 pct bids or less. Love it when they get in bid war.” It was circa 1991 and we at bar.
There are no airtight TPG holders. PCGS showed a water-tight model back a year maybe. But nothing is airtight.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Years ago before slabbing stored coins in sealed jar w silica gel.
I don’t think slab boxes air tite if they came out w one......😀
Progression of a slabbed "100 % White" coin
i00% white when it was slabbed.
This is possibly true for 19th century coins. I doubt it is true if you include 20th century coins.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.