eBay Buyer Extortion... a What Would You Do & Someone to Block
airplanenut
Posts: 22,391 ✭✭✭✭✭
I got this email from a buyer for a near-complete buffalo nickel album (https://www.ebay.com/itm/333619566104 ):
"I am sure you take pride in your photography skills.
I have reviewed this lot and find some discrepancies in your pics.
Due to very Bright Lighting of the Upper Right corner coins AND Very Dark Lighted Lower Left corner coins.
I could not make sense of the front view this lot.
So I made my bid based mostly on the rear photos.
I consider this lot very low grade worth about $200. (Not the $260 that I paid you)
Before I open a return case…
I can return it intact as I received it OR I would consider a partial refund of $30. That way I can meet you in the middle.
Let me know what you prefer.
Sorry, but this is a crappy lot."
I won't claim the photos should be winning any prizes, but it's also the nature of shooting coins in an album and eBay limiting the size of photos. I discuss these limitations with consignors before selling items like this, so they're on board. It rarely causes any issues. In fact, I can't think of another time it was a problem.
Anyway, to break down the buyer's email, he admits to thinking the pictures were unhelpful BEFORE placing his bid, and then, rather than asking any questions, just assuming something and bidding based on those assumptions. He never actually says what is wrong based on what he saw in the photos versus in-hand. The way he words everything, I think he knows he's gaming the system and trying (successfully) to put me in a bind (some digging through his feedback left indicates he's done this before).
I talked to eBay today about this, and they said that they'd likely still give him the win if a SNAD were filed (though they'd credit me on the return shipping) meaning my cost for the return would be $18 (outbound shipping and PayPal fees). Looking at the bid history, I'm not convinced this would hit $250 again if relisted, and if the price dropped to $238, it's the same $30 loss. Any more and it's a greater loss to relist.
I in no way want to reward this buyer's bad behavior, but I also want to be pragmatic in terms of limiting losses. Since honest feedback for buyers is long a thing of the past, there's nothing I can really do to punish him, it's just how quickly I can get rid of him and how much it will cost me. If I could get him to cover the return costs (shipping and PP fees), I'd just have him send it back and not think twice, but that's out of the question.
So, what would you do? If you'd like to block him, just send me a PM.
Jeremy
Edit: fixed link
Comments
I will sometimes “cut my nose to spite my face”, on principle. I wouldn't lower the price, though I realize that doing so might be the smart thing to do.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Jeremy,
If it were me, Id just meet him half way as he said, and send him the partial refund, I think if you fight this, youll end up losing the amount anyway, maybe more. its unfortunate , as I know some buyers have used this as an advantage to get a discount after a bid, but still. One of the reasons I dont sell complete sets or sets where coins could be potentially switched out, then buyer requests a refund or bid reduction, and hard to prove, and you lose out.
I agree that "rewarding" the bidder's bad behavior is something I would avoid at (almost) any cost. "You bid it, it's your problem!"
But a more pragmatic response might be to counter with a refund of $20(?). Maybe swing things a LITTLE more to your side?
Send him the $30. Block him. Move on.
Good luck!
Sir,
Thank you for your e-mail. I hope you are in great health and your family is doing well. I take great pride in my photographs and stand by them. With that being said I fully expect you to stand by your bids. Coin pricing is subjective but your high bid was a result of you bidding against someone else thus someone else thought the coins in question were worth the bidding price. The best that I could do would be a 10$ refund and that is just for the brazen attempt at extortion that your e-mail represents. If you find that amenable let me know and I will submit the refund but if not then please package the coins back up and return them. Thank you very much and continued health.
XOXOXOXO
J
The buyer is a total jackalope, but do you want to continue "working" with him to resolve this or would you rather put it to bed, block him and move onward. Give him the $30 and consider yourself lucky that you have one less time and energy drain in your life. Yes, it might not feel good, but it might be the best thing for you. Good luck!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Tell him to send the coins back, refund & block him and relist. If it sells for less than his "offer", send him a link.
I would tell him to send it back. He is in the wrong, but not grown up enough to eat it. Is he offering a refunds on firm offers? (not likely)
There has been a definite uptick in this type of activity in the last couple of months. Normally, we get a handful of these a year. 2 in just the last week, including one where the guy bought on a Friday night, and demanded $10 a day compensation for not being shipped until Monday morning. I'll gladly cover the cost of a return out of my pocket, but I will not do a partial refund in a circumstance like this as a matter of principle.
Justin Meunier
Boardwalk Numismatics
Take it back and block him and move on. I think your phone is good. I bought from you before.
Those folks who believe the coins should be sent back for a return are not taking into account that some (or all) of the coins might be switched out of the album. If someone is willing to engage in this tactic to begin with, then they are likely the type of person who will make the seller pay one way or the other for the experience.
As I wrote previously; give him $30 and be done with the situation.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
i'd agree, but only after he left feedback.
Many successful BST transactions with dozens of board members, references on request.
To that end, I have eBay on record that anything he leaves me (if less than positive) will be removed, so I'm not worried about that.
can anyone else pull up the listing from the link in the op?
Making YOUR point will end up costing you more than the 30 bucks.
Plus he isn't going to be happy (who cares?) no matter what and unless you want to do a dance, just eat it and block him.
TomB et al gave the most prudent advice. On the other hand, I wouldn’t give in even if it cost me more. I am that stubborn. I would ignore him and see what happens. He might be bluffing.
I would ask (politely) for the coins back. There is an outside chance he'll blink and hold onto them at the price paid. I wouldn't betray any irritation in communication. After the transaction is fully resolved one way or the other, block him (obviously).
I agree with Tom. I would be very leery of a return. If you really consider his effort extortion than why give him the opportunity to be a thief also. I hope it works out to your satisfaction.
Act very relieved and tell him of course he can return them and you’re happy as the result was far less than you thought it was worth. Returning a lot is also a pain, gotta go to the PO, ship it properly etc, especially if the buyer thinks he may have missed a deal through trying to pull a fast one. Maybe he’ll just hang onto it.
I took that into account. Based on the pictures included in the listing, I'd take the chance that I'd be able to determine if substantially inferior coins had been substituted. But that's just me.
It appears that ebay Nuked the auction or the link offered by the OP is wrong.
There’s no justifiable reason to make up a story about the price realized vs. expectations and I’m sure Jeremy wouldn’t do that, anyway.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Just move on - not worth the hassle. PM of buyers name would be appreciated.
It could go a lot of ways, and you'd be justified in any course of action you took.
I guess I'd say go ahead and do what is best for you.
BTW, from past experience I think if you give a partial refund ebay's system considers that a cxld dale and the buyer can no longer leave feedback.
In any case, block him for sure.
Door #2.
I'd "apologize" for the photos (ignoring his game), tell him to return for a full refund, then block after receipt, and relist.
He's clearly angling for a few bucks so he can congratulate himself. I'd eat whatever lose may be incurred, out of principle.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Maybe not...
When I am on the OP's first post where the link is, I get a popup ebay add for the auction and if I click on it I get the auction.
When I click on the link in the post I get the "not found" message.
Very curious....
ask for the return of all coins and upon receipt of same refund his purchase price and then list your coins on a different auction house. eBay is killing sellers with these buyers that find fault by their own making. If you need to absorb the return shipping cost, do it and then ban them. we need to hold eBay responsible.. stop selling on eBay for 30 days and see how they address that. if we can get many sellers to do the same, it will have an affect.
best of luck
Kennedys are my quest...
The listing photos look great to me.
As mentioned it can be hard to get all coins in focus.
I would have no problems buying with the provided photos.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1913-1938-PDS-BUFFALO-NICKELS-60-COIN-CIRCULATED-SET-IN-DANSCO-7112-ALBUM-/333619566104?hash=item4dad469618:g:OlAAAOSwsN9evuL~&nma=true&si=ufj7zDQlijG7FN8%2B2tfUCbwiNqM%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Fixed link to auction
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
please PM ebay ID of your bad buyer. The larger the group block the more effective the message.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
People suck, and so does eBay for creating this kind of advantage for unscrupulous buyers.
I once "sold" an item in auction format only to have the high bidder send me a message 30 seconds before the listing ended stating her husband "has this already" and she doesn't want it.
Auction ends obviously before I could cancel her bid and I message her advising that she won the item and I did expect her to honor her winning bid. What a hassle. She turned it around on me like it was all my fault for not canceling her bid like she asked, and how could I expect her to pay for something that she already has! 👎 Wound up canceling the sale to avoid the ebay headache and it sold for more than the first time. (good karma.)
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I will say this! You have the skills to do much better than your listing. You have 12 photos available to use in your listing. Why didn't you do a 6 obv. +6 rev.? Looks like there ae a few nice coins scattered through there. I think it would have sold for more with better pictures.
The guy is certainly a bottom feeder. I would not bend either.
Please PM Ebay ID.
Wow what a worm the buyer is. It sucks to reward such behavior. I would counter their refund request to $15. And then say “ Sorry but your a crappy buyer”. People these days.
Thanks derryb.......I also would like his ebay handle.....
Interesting that the buyer has already left positive feedback:
Thank you for everything you have done. Great communications. 5**** for you.
The buyer has done the math and knows they have you in a small jam. I'd eat the $30 and go on from there. After feedback block them.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
While It may well look contrived I guess there is a chance the bidder did, at least in his mind, find some kind of disparity in comparing the product in hand to the photos and actually thought he was doing the seller a favor by providing the option of keeping them at a reduced price.
Problem is they have done similar actions in the past indicating he's experienced in doing it. Anything is possible I suppose but from the info we were given I'm leaning towards he's enjoying the ability to negotiate after the coins have been bought at an agreed upon price.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Understood, but maybe this buyer is just over picky and difficult to please when he compares photos with the product in hand so he is in his mind doing favors to others as well when he offers the option of keeping the coins for a reduced price as an alternative to a return. 😊
...what a loser...I’ll bet you the 30 bucks that this buyer has never had his bell rung properly...meet you in the middle eh?...maybe suggest you are willing to “meet him in the middle” of a Walmart parking lot
He’s an a-hole. Pretty sad commentary about society in general that someone resorts to this sheet over $30 but we have better things to do with our time and the most cost affective thing is to refund the loser and move on.
This happens too often on eBay and it's wrong. Unless I feel I made a mistake in the deal, I always tell the buyers that I do not give partial refunds after a deal is done... they can keep the coin or return for a full refund, that's it. Can't encourage that sort of behavior by buyers and in many cases those buyers attempting to cheat you out of a few bucks end up keeping the coin anyways once they find they are not successful in their scheme. But you have to be ready to take that full return as well.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Just curious, is the amount the buyer is proposing to pay at least equal to what the underbidder would have paid? If so the seller would be netting the same sale price, if not more, as he would have if the bidder had not bid in the first place to push the underbidder up to his maximum.
Maybe I am missing something here, but if this analysis is correct then blocking this bidder may not be a good business decision as it really is not affecting the bottom line, and if anything is helping to up the bids. This of course assumes that he is not asking to reduce the price by more than the underbidder would have paid.
So a little post script about what I did. First, I appreciate the discussion here, and I think just about everyone is on the same wavelength regarding the buyer, albeit with different opinions on how he should be handled. As I stated up front, I really, really hate rewarding bad behavior. In a normal situation (a single coin), I'd just say send it back and not negotiate. In this case, there were a few things working against me:
1- It's a large album. Even if he didn't swap out any coins, I'd still have to check it, and I don't want to spend the time doing that. It's one thing if he were friendly up front and the set just wasn't for him. But based on his initial email, I wouldn't put it past him to do something untoward, and if that happens, good luck to me to prove it.
2- All of my mail is being forwarded right now (my PO Box is near my day job office, and I haven't been there since March), which has made receiving mail quite slow. Friendly buyer? Happy to explain the slowdown. Aggravated buyer? One more potential problem in the works. And no, under no circumstances would I give him a physical address.
3- As long as I have to eat the return cost, this isn't that much more. If #1 and #2 weren't in play, I'd be more open to paying more to be right, but altogether, it's a tough spot.
So in light of everything, I gave him the $30 and have taken pleasure in the fact that he's now on a lot of block lists (again, PM me to get his user ID), so I hope one of you has something he really wants one day and he can't get it because he wanted to be a jerk over $30.
After I refunded his money, I checked the weather and flew myself up to an island near the Canadian border, where I took a nice stroll, spent some time by the water, and then took off again to watch the sun set from the air, and then fly by the illuminated Seattle skyline in the dark on my way home. That cost way more than $30 and was much more enjoyable than thinking about this guy.
See... look how great I am!
Sorry... didn't realize that when I added the close paren, the forum software added it to the link. Fixed it up top, and also here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/333619566104
Yes and no. The decisions here go beyond one listing. I'm very much set up to list individual coins (whether it's getting descriptions prepared, taking photographs, shipping, you name it). Albums take many times longer to deal with than coins, and if I charged proportionally, it would rarely if ever be worth it from a consignor's point of view to have me sell them. So my listings are a compromise where both sides (myself and the consignor) are in agreement about what is good enough. True, some money may be left on the table, but it may not be worth the added costs to get it.
As far as the number of images go, if I have a stack of albums (you see just one listing, but I had 42 albums in front of me that day) it's a lot more work to figure out each one individually--album A has X number of pages, so I can take 2 photos of each side of each page, but album B has Y pages, so I can only take 1 photo of each side, and then album Z is small, so I could take 3 photos of each side, but then I don't have room for a photo of the cover...) This is very different from a coin, where it's one photo of each side of the coin, plus each side of the slab (and if I need an additional angle or two, I know I have 8 photos remaining, so there's nothing to think about). So yes, if I were selling just one album once, you're right. But that's not what's happening here. Again, it all comes down to expectations. If I were telling my consignor that the photos would be just as good as they get for a single coin, it would be on me to make good on that. But that's not practical, and everyone's clear on how the listings will be assembled.
Jeremy. You are a superstar seller on eBay- let me start with that. You asked for opinions on this. Here is mine.
Dpoole’s suggestion is equally compelling to me as TomB’s suggestion. In the end, though, it is entirely your consignor’s decision, not yours. Get your “marching orders” from your consignor. And, next time you have an identical collection to sell for hundreds of dollars, amwldcoin is also correct... you needed more pictures to better depict the collection you are selling. I agree that you could have done a little better with the listing, especially highlighting the key dates better. The decision to block is your decision though entirely. In weighing the fact that the buyer already gave you positive feedback (if true) coupled with the less than stellar presentation of the collection, I would not block the buyer in this case. Close call, but the positive feedback tips the scale for me to not block him.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Edited to add... written and posted before reading Jeremy’s post of 5 minutes earlier.