without consideration for grade, based only on availability I would edit the list to read as below:
1856 Flying Eagle Cent
1877 Indian Head Cent
1909-S Indian Head Cent
1914-D Lincoln Cent
1922 No D Lincoln Cent Strong Reverse
1912-S Liberty Head V Nickel
1916-D Mercury Dime
1916 Standing Liberty Quarter
1911-D Indian Head Eagle
@keets said:
without consideration for grade, based only on availability I would edit the list to read as below:
1856 Flying Eagle Cent
1877 Indian Head Cent
1909-S Indian Head Cent
1914-D Lincoln Cent
1922 No D Lincoln Cent Strong Reverse
1912-S Liberty Head V Nickel
1916-D Mercury Dime
1916 Standing Liberty Quarter
1911-D Indian Head Eagle
Check out the populations and values for 1885 and 1886 Liberty nickels, compared to those for the 1912-S.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I remember at the beginning of a Winter FUN show that a dealer across the aisle from me had two 1901-S quarters. Both were raw. One was in AG-3 at best and the other one was a Fair-2. In my view, they were hole fillers. He wanted over $6,000 apiece for these coins, which I thought was just nuts. With the huge emphasis on quality at the time, I could not see how such items could be worth that kind >of money.
It comes down to supply and demand. It's the rarest 20th century non-variety circulating silver coin. PCGS Coin Facts estimates there are only 2000 coins surviving in all grades.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@keyman64 said:
The 1916-D as a key for the Mercury Dime Series is a LIE that is perpetuated by all of those that read the mintage figures in the Red Book as an 8 year old child. In 2012 I did a Mint State key date analysis for Mercury Dimes to drive this point home. I need to revisit this to re-do all of it...and much more thoroughly while adding commentary on how things have changed over the last 8 years. Maybe next week? Lol In your post, you mention the 16-D, 21 and 21-D...and NONE of those are the KEY to the series.
Most collectors of the series aren't collecting it in UNC since they can't afford it. For the majority, the five traditional coins (16-D, 21-P, 21-D, 42/41-P and 42/41-D) presumably are still "key" due to the cost but not any scarcity.
In my post, I did mention that I was only going to do the analysis of UNC...when I revisit this, when I have time, I hope to take a look at the circulated grades as well. To make a bit of a correction to your statement though..."are still "key" due to the cost..." I don't see that as accurate. Cost is the wrong word, while demand is the more appropriate word. It is the demand that drives the cost. That demand is incorrectly placed because it is all based on the knowledge that people gain by reading the mintage figures in the Red Book as a child. If we were blind to the mintage figures then REALITY/TRUE SCARCITY would be king and dictate the price. We would live in a very different world if reality was the driver. Just because of my little project do I somehow believe that every US Coin collector will be re-educated? Lol, no! I do hope to expand on my original work soon, while addressing your concern of the circulated examples. You bring up a great point and it is quite possible that my data will be more useful to collectors.
Understand
I don't see much point to the concept of "key date" the last few decades. It made sense when most collecting was out of circulation at face value or communication limitations made it a lot more difficult to buy most coins.
And I have many coins with less than 2,000 surviving examples in my collection. In terms of the 18th and 19th centuries, some of them are “common dates.” Two thousand survivors is not rare at all.
I know supply and demand are the reason, but when you are talking about “slicks,” it becomes ridiculous. When I was working a type set, a dealer had a 1796 half dollar that had Fair sharpness, polished and with a hole for $9,000. I would rather leave the spot blank than pay that much for something like that.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Just now on eBay, certified, are (quick search, perhaps not all coins listed on the search are right):
1856 Flying Eagle Cent 34 coins and many more raw
1877 Indian Head Cent. 40 coins
1909-S Indian Head Cent. 40 coins
1909-S Lincoln Cent. Over 200 coins
1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent Over 100...
And then I stopped. With so many coins available now just on eBay, it is hard to justify any key claim. And many are in decent grades. Feel free to send the cavalry...
I still own a 1911-D Indian Head Eagle as it was a coin I wanted as a kid and could not afford.
I had a chance as a teen to place one on layaway, but didn't want to commit to something I couldn't swing.
I ended up instead placing a 1914 Barber Half on layaway and spent the whole summer working for a roofer replacing about a 100 acrylic bubble skylights to pay it off.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
I often think of key dates as faux rarities. They are the reason I’ll never collect Barber quarters, Indian 2.5’s or 5’s, and any number of series with expensive common coins.
Interesting discussion with good observations and inputs. Now (drum roll) for my 'personal' definition of a key date - Any coin I do not have, that I really want. Yep... that sums it up for me.... And that does not include those super expensive or ultra rarities. Sure, would be nice to have them, but I do not seek them.... And no, I will not say which 'key' (for me) coin I am presently interested in.... Cheers, RickO
@Abuelo said:
Just now on eBay, certified, are (quick search, perhaps not all coins listed on the search are right):
1856 Flying Eagle Cent 34 coins
1877 Indian Head Cent. 40 coins
1909-S Indian Head Cent. 40 coins
1909-S Lincoln Cent. Over 200 coins
1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent Over 100...
And then I stopped. With so many coins available now just on eBay, it is hard to justify any key claim. And many are in decent grades. Feel free to send the cavalry...
“Key date” is a relative term. It’s not necessarily about absolute rarity. Just for fun, I looked up 1857 Flying Eagle cents on Ebay and more than 1600 were listed. And in the case of 1909 Indian cents, more than 2000 were listed.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Abuelo said:
Just now on eBay, certified, are (quick search, perhaps not all coins listed on the search are right):
1856 Flying Eagle Cent 34 coins
1877 Indian Head Cent. 40 coins
1909-S Indian Head Cent. 40 coins
1909-S Lincoln Cent. Over 200 coins
1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent Over 100...
And then I stopped. With so many coins available now just on eBay, it is hard to justify any key claim. And many are in decent grades. Feel free to send the cavalry...
Last night after writing one of my posts, I also did an eBay search for a number of scarcer US coins, mainly early copper and 20th century gold. All the coppers were available, including three 1796 half cents. For the gold, I didn't find the 1921 DE or 1920-S eagle but if Coin Facts is reasonably accurate, both won't take long to find either. I also couldn't find the 1802 half dime but that's actually a rare coin; most of the coins believed to exist aren't in the TPG population data.
It would also mostly be the same outcome for non-US coinage, if the price level was a lot higher. This is the second reason for the difference in availability.
@erwindoc said:
Speaking of Washington quarters, historically, the keys are the 32D and 32S, possibly adding the 36D too. However, for this series that just means they are the most expensive. I would wager that a quick search of some top national dealers would quickly be able to find several examples in all grades. However, I think that the 37S is by far tougher to find in mint state than its mintage suggests and IMHO it should be lifted above or on at least equal tiers with the previously mentioned quarters.
Some of the major doubled dies in the series ARE truly rare, much more so that any regular issue date/Mint. Most occurred on very common dates and many were indiscriminately melted during the various silver crazes, enhancing their rarity further. I know most don't include them in the series but if you're looking for rarity these would be the ones to go after.
I would have to agree. One could list more than a few Washington quarter die varieties that haven't been available for sale anywhere, in any grade, in at least a year or more. Those are the real keys to the series.
Surprisingly, some of the very strong doubled dies among the copper-nickel issues are the very toughest to find. These would include the 1966 DDR-001, 1968-D DDR-001, 1969-S PR DDO-001, 1970-D DDO-001 and 002, 1971 DDR-001, 1976-D DDO-001, and 1990-S PR DDO-001.
I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, but many former keys aren't any longer because hoards have been broken up as old timers leave the collector base. Included in this are 16-D Mercs, 32-D and S quarters, etc. I guess peer pressure or whatever has kept the prices up, but if they ever were rare, they're less rare now. I knew a vest pocket dealer who had roll sets of key IHCs as his retirement plan. They were slabbed so they technically weren't "rolls" but he had the quantities.
1971-s Eisenhower Type I Proof... It is likely the rarest proof coin of the second half of twentieth century....perhaps the entire twentieth century. But still unknown to most collectors.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
1971-s Eisenhower Type I Proof... It is likely the rarest proof coin of the second half of twentieth century....perhaps the entire twentieth century. But still unknown to most collectors.
please enlighten us with a description and perhaps an image.
@coinkat said:
1971-s Eisenhower Type I Proof... It is likely the rarest proof coin of the second half of twentieth century....perhaps the entire twentieth century. But still unknown to most collectors.
I wouldn't say it is the rarest, but certainly an extremely rare and interesting coin. The PCGS pop is currently at 6, and there are rumored to be other known examples. There are other modern proof varieties with lower pops, and if you include pattern proofs, there are several early 20th century varieties that would also be lower.
In any case, the coin is another prime example of why the real keys to a series are often varieties, rather than dates. Design varieties are already required for the completion of many series. For example, the 1909-S VDB cent - one of the most widely known "key dates" - is not a date; it's a reverse design variety.
@keets said: 1971-s Eisenhower Type I Proof... It is likely the rarest proof coin of the second half of twentieth century....perhaps the entire twentieth century. But still unknown to most collectors.
please enlighten us with a description and perhaps an image.
The 1971-s Eisenhower Type I Proof has the normal, high-relief proof obverse design paired with the low-relief business strike reverse design. For that reason, some people consider it a mule, and therefore, an error. My opinion is that mules should obviously be considered die varieties, anyway; therefore, that distinction isn't particularly important to me, one way or the other, but I digress...
Keets... One was sold by Heritage that featured an unusual box with the Presidential Seal and Richard Nixon's signature. There was at least one or two threads on the forum from 2013 around the time of the heritage auction. Basically the type I reverse used for the 40% silver Uncs was polished and used on a few proofs. It is not clear how many exist. I will look for previous threads and the Heritage auction listing
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@shorecoll said:
I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, but many former keys aren't any longer because hoards have been broken up as old timers leave the collector base. Included in this are 16-D Mercs, 32-D and S quarters, etc. I guess peer pressure or whatever has kept the prices up, but if they ever were rare, they're less rare now. I knew a vest pocket dealer who had roll sets of key IHCs as his retirement plan. They were slabbed so they technically weren't "rolls" but he had the quantities.
As long as set collecting remains the primary approach to collecting, the demand for these common coins will remain high. It seems to be losing favor at least somewhat and even if the collector base isn't shrinking, the proportion who collect these series must be due to the internet and constant availability of new NCLT.
A prior post in this thread mentions the cost of very low quality 1901-S quarters. The 1916-D dime is another coin which is very expensive for what it actually is as a collectible, around $400 for an AG-3 and $700 for a G-4. it's not even close to being rare. It's very common and not competitive versus other similarly priced coins.
Longer term, I can't think of a worse value (collectible or financial) near an equivalent price than these low quality rather expensive common "key" dates.
The story behind the Ike type I reverse proof remains a mystery. There are various theories with the Nixon box having a potential role in narrowing the timeline when the type I proofs may have been struck.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@Raybo said:
I know that many here don't give a hoot, but how about the 1872&1873 2 Cent Pieces?
One was minted for circulation and the other just for collectors.
Just 1 minted for circulation sounds strange. Why only 1 in a production run?
I don't think this ever got answered, so: he meant that one of the dates was minted for circulation, not that the production run was quantity one.
@shorecoll said:
I had a half-roll of 16-Ds in AG and sold it, 20 of the 25 gradeflated to G.
Smart move IMO. I suspect (not actually knowing) that there is a noticeable amount of hoarding as with your two examples of the 16-D and key IHC. All of these coins are too common and yet often still too expensive for the typical collector of these series to support current prices.
For the 16-D dime, the Coin Facts estimate is 10,000 to my recollection. My guess is 50,000 to 100,000 have partial or complete sets. Unless it's a lot more, seems unlikely anywhere near even one in 10 would own it. I've also heard bigger budget buyers who don't otherwise collect the series buy this coin in high grades but that's different since better examples still have strong general appeal to US collectors.
Comments
without consideration for grade, based only on availability I would edit the list to read as below:
1856 Flying Eagle Cent
1877 Indian Head Cent
1909-S Indian Head Cent
1914-D Lincoln Cent
1922 No D Lincoln Cent Strong Reverse
1912-S Liberty Head V Nickel
1916-D Mercury Dime
1916 Standing Liberty Quarter
1911-D Indian Head Eagle
Check out the populations and values for 1885 and 1886 Liberty nickels, compared to those for the 1912-S.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It comes down to supply and demand. It's the rarest 20th century non-variety circulating silver coin. PCGS Coin Facts estimates there are only 2000 coins surviving in all grades.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Understand
I don't see much point to the concept of "key date" the last few decades. It made sense when most collecting was out of circulation at face value or communication limitations made it a lot more difficult to buy most coins.
And I have many coins with less than 2,000 surviving examples in my collection. In terms of the 18th and 19th centuries, some of them are “common dates.” Two thousand survivors is not rare at all.
I know supply and demand are the reason, but when you are talking about “slicks,” it becomes ridiculous. When I was working a type set, a dealer had a 1796 half dollar that had Fair sharpness, polished and with a hole for $9,000. I would rather leave the spot blank than pay that much for something like that.
Just now on eBay, certified, are (quick search, perhaps not all coins listed on the search are right):
And then I stopped. With so many coins available now just on eBay, it is hard to justify any key claim. And many are in decent grades. Feel free to send the cavalry...
Edited to say "and many more raw"
I still own a 1911-D Indian Head Eagle as it was a coin I wanted as a kid and could not afford.
I had a chance as a teen to place one on layaway, but didn't want to commit to something I couldn't swing.
I ended up instead placing a 1914 Barber Half on layaway and spent the whole summer working for a roofer replacing about a 100 acrylic bubble skylights to pay it off.
I often think of key dates as faux rarities. They are the reason I’ll never collect Barber quarters, Indian 2.5’s or 5’s, and any number of series with expensive common coins.
Latin American Collection
Interesting discussion with good observations and inputs. Now (drum roll) for my 'personal' definition of a key date - Any coin I do not have, that I really want. Yep... that sums it up for me....
And that does not include those super expensive or ultra rarities. Sure, would be nice to have them, but I do not seek them.... And no, I will not say which 'key' (for me) coin I am presently interested in.... 
Cheers, RickO
“Key date” is a relative term. It’s not necessarily about absolute rarity. Just for fun, I looked up 1857 Flying Eagle cents on Ebay and more than 1600 were listed. And in the case of 1909 Indian cents, more than 2000 were listed.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Last night after writing one of my posts, I also did an eBay search for a number of scarcer US coins, mainly early copper and 20th century gold. All the coppers were available, including three 1796 half cents. For the gold, I didn't find the 1921 DE or 1920-S eagle but if Coin Facts is reasonably accurate, both won't take long to find either. I also couldn't find the 1802 half dime but that's actually a rare coin; most of the coins believed to exist aren't in the TPG population data.
It would also mostly be the same outcome for non-US coinage, if the price level was a lot higher. This is the second reason for the difference in availability.
Check out the populations and values for 1885 and 1886 Liberty nickels, compared to those for the 1912-S.
no argument from me, I was only going off the list in the OP.
Surprisingly, some of the very strong doubled dies among the copper-nickel issues are the very toughest to find. These would include the 1966 DDR-001, 1968-D DDR-001, 1969-S PR DDO-001, 1970-D DDO-001 and 002, 1971 DDR-001, 1976-D DDO-001, and 1990-S PR DDO-001.
The 1950D nickel was also considered a key date...
I don't think anyone has mentioned yet, but many former keys aren't any longer because hoards have been broken up as old timers leave the collector base. Included in this are 16-D Mercs, 32-D and S quarters, etc. I guess peer pressure or whatever has kept the prices up, but if they ever were rare, they're less rare now. I knew a vest pocket dealer who had roll sets of key IHCs as his retirement plan. They were slabbed so they technically weren't "rolls" but he had the quantities.
1971-s Eisenhower Type I Proof... It is likely the rarest proof coin of the second half of twentieth century....perhaps the entire twentieth century. But still unknown to most collectors.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
1971-s Eisenhower Type I Proof... It is likely the rarest proof coin of the second half of twentieth century....perhaps the entire twentieth century. But still unknown to most collectors.
please enlighten us with a description and perhaps an image.
I wouldn't say it is the rarest, but certainly an extremely rare and interesting coin. The PCGS pop is currently at 6, and there are rumored to be other known examples. There are other modern proof varieties with lower pops, and if you include pattern proofs, there are several early 20th century varieties that would also be lower.
In any case, the coin is another prime example of why the real keys to a series are often varieties, rather than dates. Design varieties are already required for the completion of many series. For example, the 1909-S VDB cent - one of the most widely known "key dates" - is not a date; it's a reverse design variety.
The 1971-s Eisenhower Type I Proof has the normal, high-relief proof obverse design paired with the low-relief business strike reverse design. For that reason, some people consider it a mule, and therefore, an error. My opinion is that mules should obviously be considered die varieties, anyway; therefore, that distinction isn't particularly important to me, one way or the other, but I digress...
Keets... One was sold by Heritage that featured an unusual box with the Presidential Seal and Richard Nixon's signature. There was at least one or two threads on the forum from 2013 around the time of the heritage auction. Basically the type I reverse used for the 40% silver Uncs was polished and used on a few proofs. It is not clear how many exist. I will look for previous threads and the Heritage auction listing
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
As long as set collecting remains the primary approach to collecting, the demand for these common coins will remain high. It seems to be losing favor at least somewhat and even if the collector base isn't shrinking, the proportion who collect these series must be due to the internet and constant availability of new NCLT.
A prior post in this thread mentions the cost of very low quality 1901-S quarters. The 1916-D dime is another coin which is very expensive for what it actually is as a collectible, around $400 for an AG-3 and $700 for a G-4. it's not even close to being rare. It's very common and not competitive versus other similarly priced coins.
Longer term, I can't think of a worse value (collectible or financial) near an equivalent price than these low quality rather expensive common "key" dates.
The story behind the Ike type I reverse proof remains a mystery. There are various theories with the Nixon box having a potential role in narrowing the timeline when the type I proofs may have been struck.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I don't think this ever got answered, so: he meant that one of the dates was minted for circulation, not that the production run was quantity one.
I had a half-roll of 16-Ds in AG and sold it, 20 of the 25 gradeflated to G.
This coin is still what it use to be !!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Smart move IMO. I suspect (not actually knowing) that there is a noticeable amount of hoarding as with your two examples of the 16-D and key IHC. All of these coins are too common and yet often still too expensive for the typical collector of these series to support current prices.
For the 16-D dime, the Coin Facts estimate is 10,000 to my recollection. My guess is 50,000 to 100,000 have partial or complete sets. Unless it's a lot more, seems unlikely anywhere near even one in 10 would own it. I've also heard bigger budget buyers who don't otherwise collect the series buy this coin in high grades but that's different since better examples still have strong general appeal to US collectors.