Contemporary Counterfeit NEWP

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messydesk
messydesk Posts: 20,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

This just showed up the other day. 1900-O VAM 5 Micro O in pretty nice shape for one of these. One of approximately 30 die pairs of fake Morgans produced by a single counterfeiting outfit in the early 20th century.

John
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution

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  • DRUNNER
    DRUNNER Posts: 3,946 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Beautiful example . . . . . . and what a piece of TPG history when the expose' started . . .

    Drunner

  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @DRUNNER said:
    Beautiful example . . . . . . and what a piece of TPG history when the expose' started . . .

    Drunner

    Thanks. It's not in a TPG holder (just my holder), but they do exist in everyone's holders. I'm hopeful that someday our hosts will recognize the numismatic significance of contemporary counterfeits and "authenticate" them for what they are. Perhaps Winston Zack's "Bad Metal" book series in progress will help make that happen.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • Jimnight
    Jimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Scary stuff ... However very educational! Thank for sharing.

  • BuffaloIronTail
    BuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Jimnight said:
    Scary stuff ... However very educational! Thank for sharing.

    I agree 100 per cent. That coin is scarily well made!

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @BuffaloIronTail said:

    @Jimnight said:
    Scary stuff ... However very educational! Thank for sharing.

    I agree 100 per cent. That coin is scarily well made!

    Pete

    In circulated grades, yes. When found, these are almost always low grade, likely having been artificially circulated before being released into the wild. The ones that are high grade don't look so hot. Of course, when you consider they were probably made between 1905 and 1910, they were very well done. Most are worth considerably more than the genuine article in the same grade. They made some dated 1893-O, which are probably worth less than a genuine one. There's also a monster high grade 96-O Micro O that @dcarr has that would be worth more as as genuine coin.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • SaorAlba
    SaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020 12:25PM
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    I'd just love to know by whom and where they were made.

  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @SaorAlba said:
    I'd just love to know by whom and where they were made.

    My theory is they were made by the mob in New Orleans, but I only have plausible explanations to back it up -- no proof.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • cmerlo1
    cmerlo1 Posts: 8,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020 1:45PM
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    That is awesome.

    The photos here are of one of the best cherrypicks I ever made. At the time (2008), Ash Harrison told me he thought it was the finest known for the date, despite being cleaned and cut on the eagle's breast. He also said others had been found with similar cuts. It also resulted in a coveted 'You Suck' award here on the forums. I wish I had my current photography rig and skills back then:

    http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com/wiki/1901-O_VAM-42

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The cuts may have been made by someone receiving them to check they were silver, which, of course, they were.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • SaorAlba
    SaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @messydesk said:

    @SaorAlba said:
    I'd just love to know by whom and where they were made.

    My theory is they were made by the mob in New Orleans, but I only have plausible explanations to back it up -- no proof.

    My theory is that they could have come to the US in diplomatic courier pouches from the Soviet Union in the 1930's. It is known that the Soviets were counterfeiting large sized $100 bills from the 1914 Series. They were also restriking Tsar Nicholas gold coins to make purchases from the west.

    In reading about some USSR navy sailors that trained on the PBY Catalina in North Carolina during WWII it was noted that the embassy in Washington was supplying the sailors with a lot of older US currency that caused them to stand out when they were in stores. The secret programme was known as Project Zebra - was only declassified a few years ago.

  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020 6:33AM
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    Is there any projected release date for Winston Zack's "Bad Metal" book?? I have (purchased knowingly) a counterfeit 1902 CC Morgan, and think it may be addressed in such a publication...There are a few known. Cheers, RickO

  • Sonorandesertrat
    Sonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ricko said:
    Is there any projected release date for Winston Zack's "Bad Metal" book?? I have (purchased knowingly) a counterfeit 1902 CC Morgan, and think it may be addressed in such a publication...There are a few known. Cheers, RickO

    Ask him. http://www.badmetalcoin.com

    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Sonorandesertrat....Thanks for the link, I did email him. Cheers, RickO

  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ricko said:
    Is there any projected release date for Winston Zack's "Bad Metal" book?? I have (purchased knowingly) a counterfeit 1902 CC Morgan, and think it may be addressed in such a publication...There are a few known. Cheers, RickO

    He's only released the low denomination volume so far.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • Coinosaurus
    Coinosaurus Posts: 9,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I agree, TPGs should slab these.

    Newman Numismatic Portal, www.NewmanPortal.org
  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I just got a message from Mr. Zack...the next volume will likely be out early in 2022. Cheers, RickO

  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Just got another message.... It will be 550-600 pages....Cheers, RickO

  • SaorAlba
    SaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I own several Micro-O forgeries, still don't have the PCGS graded example but hopes are a many I will get one sometime.

  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Coinosaurus said:
    I agree, TPGs should slab these.

    If Insider were still here, he'd insert his "Ahem" here, since ICG does, and with a special label making it perfectly clear that they're contemporary counterfeits.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • Coinosaurus
    Coinosaurus Posts: 9,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Some of the 18th c. counterfeit halfpence are worth more than the originals. If that doesn't justify slabbing, what does. I want an authentic counterfeit, not a counterfeit counterfeit.

    Newman Numismatic Portal, www.NewmanPortal.org
  • dimebag
    dimebag Posts: 127 ✭✭✭
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    YEAH. SAME HERE !!!!!!!!!!

  • NumisOxide
    NumisOxide Posts: 11,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I find contemporary counterfeits a fascinating area of numismatics. Great pickup!

  • Boosibri
    Boosibri Posts: 12,715 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Numismatic history for sure

    Latin American Collection

  • SaorAlba
    SaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Coinosaurus said:
    Some of the 18th c. counterfeit halfpence are worth more than the originals. If that doesn't justify slabbing, what does. I want an authentic counterfeit, not a counterfeit counterfeit.

    I collect coins from Scotland, of course. Some of the contemporary counterfeits of Queen Mary's coins are worth much more than the original coins they were faking - the story goes that late in the 1550's while Queen Mary was living at Versailles the French sent over soldiers to guard Edinburgh from English raids - and these same French soldiers were counterfeiting base metal Scottish coins to earn a wee bit more money than France was paying them to shiver in Scotland.

  • JesseKraft
    JesseKraft Posts: 417 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I just hosted an ANS Money Talks via zoom on contemporary counterfeits this Saturday. Had some technical difficulties, but that's the world we live in now.

    Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
    Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
    American Numismatic Society
    New York City

    Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
    Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!

  • LanceNewmanOCC
    LanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @messydesk said:
    I'm hopeful that someday our hosts will recognize the numismatic significance of contemporary >counterfeits and "authenticate" them for what they are.

    fwiw. i have seen some. not morgans. even on this forum.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • coinkat
    coinkat Posts: 24,542 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I remember the controversy quite well

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • LanceNewmanOCC
    LanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @messydesk said:
    I'm hopeful that someday our hosts will recognize the numismatic significance of contemporary >counterfeits and "authenticate" them for what they are.

    fwiw. i have seen some. not morgans. even on this forum.

    .
    ok. i ran across a post recently, after getting rid of some of my bookmarks and checking out burfle's posts. he showed one of the pcgs holders with a known and "accepted" counterfeit although that isn't the term used. i think it was something like privately made. perhaps @burfle23 will post it here.

    one of the few others i've seen is a bust dollar. now i think about it im pretty sure there are many various privately made coins in pcgs holders and labeled as such in various ways.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Zoins
    Zoins Posts: 34,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2021 5:54PM
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    @Coinosaurus said:
    I want an authentic counterfeit, not a counterfeit counterfeit.

    Great quote for collectors of counterfeits :+1:

    Private Mint News | 2010 Lincoln Reverse Finalists
  • Raybob15239
    Raybob15239 Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭
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    I only have one micro O contemporary counterfiet acquired from a fellow VAM collector. I spent a lot of time looking to pick one in the wild with no success.

    Successful B/S/T transactions: As Seller: PascoWA (June 2008); MsMorrisine (April 2009); ECHOES (July 2009) As Buyer: bfjohnson (July 2008); robkool (Dec 2010); itsnotjustme (Dec 2010) TwoSides2aCoin (Dec 2018) PrivateCoin Jan 2019
  • LanceNewmanOCC
    LanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021 5:24PM
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    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:

    @messydesk said:
    I'm hopeful that someday our hosts will recognize the numismatic significance of contemporary >counterfeits and "authenticate" them for what they are.

    ok. i at least found one of the images i was looking for and then FINALLY found this thread in which i made this post. sheesh

    i'm sure you've seen a few coins like this in pcgs holders over the years but i'll post it since i stated i would. :)

    although, it just now occurred to me that this is "probably" in the pop reports with a pcgs #.

    EDITED TO ADD:

    here is something to research i just pulled from pcgs site: - Die Trials, Hub Trials, and Splashers


    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • 1630Boston
    1630Boston Posts: 14,157 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Great educational thread

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

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