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Contemporary Counterfeit NEWP
messydesk
Posts: 19,706 ✭✭✭✭✭
This just showed up the other day. 1900-O VAM 5 Micro O in pretty nice shape for one of these. One of approximately 30 die pairs of fake Morgans produced by a single counterfeiting outfit in the early 20th century.
John
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
19
Comments
Beautiful example . . . . . . and what a piece of TPG history when the expose' started . . .
Drunner
Thanks. It's not in a TPG holder (just my holder), but they do exist in everyone's holders. I'm hopeful that someday our hosts will recognize the numismatic significance of contemporary counterfeits and "authenticate" them for what they are. Perhaps Winston Zack's "Bad Metal" book series in progress will help make that happen.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Scary stuff ... However very educational! Thank for sharing.
I agree 100 per cent. That coin is scarily well made!
Pete
In circulated grades, yes. When found, these are almost always low grade, likely having been artificially circulated before being released into the wild. The ones that are high grade don't look so hot. Of course, when you consider they were probably made between 1905 and 1910, they were very well done. Most are worth considerably more than the genuine article in the same grade. They made some dated 1893-O, which are probably worth less than a genuine one. There's also a monster high grade 96-O Micro O that @dcarr has that would be worth more as as genuine coin.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I'd just love to know by whom and where they were made.
My theory is they were made by the mob in New Orleans, but I only have plausible explanations to back it up -- no proof.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
That is awesome.
The photos here are of one of the best cherrypicks I ever made. At the time (2008), Ash Harrison told me he thought it was the finest known for the date, despite being cleaned and cut on the eagle's breast. He also said others had been found with similar cuts. It also resulted in a coveted 'You Suck' award here on the forums. I wish I had my current photography rig and skills back then:
http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com/wiki/1901-O_VAM-42
The cuts may have been made by someone receiving them to check they were silver, which, of course, they were.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
My theory is that they could have come to the US in diplomatic courier pouches from the Soviet Union in the 1930's. It is known that the Soviets were counterfeiting large sized $100 bills from the 1914 Series. They were also restriking Tsar Nicholas gold coins to make purchases from the west.
In reading about some USSR navy sailors that trained on the PBY Catalina in North Carolina during WWII it was noted that the embassy in Washington was supplying the sailors with a lot of older US currency that caused them to stand out when they were in stores. The secret programme was known as Project Zebra - was only declassified a few years ago.
Is there any projected release date for Winston Zack's "Bad Metal" book?? I have (purchased knowingly) a counterfeit 1902 CC Morgan, and think it may be addressed in such a publication...There are a few known. Cheers, RickO
Ask him. http://www.badmetalcoin.com
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
@Sonorandesertrat....Thanks for the link, I did email him. Cheers, RickO
He's only released the low denomination volume so far.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I agree, TPGs should slab these.
I just got a message from Mr. Zack...the next volume will likely be out early in 2022. Cheers, RickO
Just got another message.... It will be 550-600 pages....Cheers, RickO
I own several Micro-O forgeries, still don't have the PCGS graded example but hopes are a many I will get one sometime.
If Insider were still here, he'd insert his "Ahem" here, since ICG does, and with a special label making it perfectly clear that they're contemporary counterfeits.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Some of the 18th c. counterfeit halfpence are worth more than the originals. If that doesn't justify slabbing, what does. I want an authentic counterfeit, not a counterfeit counterfeit.
YEAH. SAME HERE !!!!!!!!!!
I find contemporary counterfeits a fascinating area of numismatics. Great pickup!
Numismatic history for sure
Latin American Collection
I collect coins from Scotland, of course. Some of the contemporary counterfeits of Queen Mary's coins are worth much more than the original coins they were faking - the story goes that late in the 1550's while Queen Mary was living at Versailles the French sent over soldiers to guard Edinburgh from English raids - and these same French soldiers were counterfeiting base metal Scottish coins to earn a wee bit more money than France was paying them to shiver in Scotland.
I just hosted an ANS Money Talks via zoom on contemporary counterfeits this Saturday. Had some technical difficulties, but that's the world we live in now.
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
fwiw. i have seen some. not morgans. even on this forum.
I remember the controversy quite well
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
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ok. i ran across a post recently, after getting rid of some of my bookmarks and checking out burfle's posts. he showed one of the pcgs holders with a known and "accepted" counterfeit although that isn't the term used. i think it was something like privately made. perhaps @burfle23 will post it here.
one of the few others i've seen is a bust dollar. now i think about it im pretty sure there are many various privately made coins in pcgs holders and labeled as such in various ways.
Great quote for collectors of counterfeits
I only have one micro O contemporary counterfiet acquired from a fellow VAM collector. I spent a lot of time looking to pick one in the wild with no success.
ok. i at least found one of the images i was looking for and then FINALLY found this thread in which i made this post. sheesh
i'm sure you've seen a few coins like this in pcgs holders over the years but i'll post it since i stated i would.
although, it just now occurred to me that this is "probably" in the pop reports with a pcgs #.
EDITED TO ADD:
here is something to research i just pulled from pcgs site: - Die Trials, Hub Trials, and Splashers
Great educational thread
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