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Update: PCGS Crossover to NGC results - NGC Customer Service Manager Responds
pointfivezero
Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
Being relatively new to Morgan collecting and scouring this forum and many others on a regular basis, I had drawn some conclusions. One of which was, and I say this knowing whom our hosts are, that PCGS is held in the highest esteem in the world of coin grading. A second conclusion based on the majority of opinions I've read is PCGS is also considered most discerning when it comes to grading scores. However, after my last two Carson City Morgan submissions to NGC, I've had pause to reconsider.
I'm not looking to start any debates here, just posting objective results over the past two months. With a .250 batting average, I'm afraid I'm heading back to the minors:
Comments and constructive criticism welcome.
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Just because a coin fails to cross, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t grade the same grade (as awarded by the other grading company), if submitted for grading out of a holder.
There are at least a couple of possible reasons for that: 1) It’s easier to get a better look at a coin (including its edge) out of a holder and the grading company might want to err on the side of caution; 2) The grading company might want to try to show that it’s more conservative than the competition and that only x% of coins cross.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
2) The grading company might want to try to show that it’s more conservative than the competition and that only x% of coins cross.
My first thought was this.
Hi Mark - had not considered your first reason. As confident as I am in my coin selection skills, I'm not willing to risk a lower grade as these are all high end CC's. I do, however, believe your second reason has strong merit and I'm finding this out in a painful way.
As a CC collector, I much prefer PCGS and have always thought that PCGS was tougher on them. Just my thoughts.
bob
Thanks Bob - up until two months ago, I would have agreed with you. Here are a couple of the coins from this week's results which failed to cross. You be the judge:
I've got a bunch of NGC holdered coins on their way to PCGS to cross. So, opposite of what the OP is doing. It will be interesting to see if my batting average will be better. Some how I don't think it will. I've read/heard/surmised that BOTH grading services are more reluctant to cross high grade/high end coins than average widgets for some reason. Even with trying to claim grading conservatism, I'd think that the grading services would like to have the finest examples in their holders.
Submitting coins out of their holders offers considerably greater upside and, as you noted, downside. It’s just a matter of how much of a gamble you’re willing to take.
I know a number of exceptionally sharp submitters who have had plenty of downside shocks over the years, when cracking coins out of their holders and resubmitting them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
lol, read post wrong.
There are so many Morgans graded, by both services, that it is difficult for me to imagine you cannot a Morgan you like, at a grade you like, in a holder you like, and save yourself the trouble and money for the crossover. My grammar sucks...
When I initially started building my registry, I only searched for NGC slabbed coins. One would be amazed how much this limited the purchasing options, especially as I narrowed my search to the key dates. Had I chose to build a PCGS registry in the first place, I would have not found myself in this current quandary.
@pointfivezero I am surprised, as every show I walk there are thousands of Morgans, graded by all TPG, raw... But then again, I do not collect those coins.
There's a silent War going on IMHO. This started when NGC called out PCGS for grade inflation with all the 12-S V-Nickels that graded high...which was the result of two Gem rolls being submitted. I have reaped the benefits with my Barber Halves as NGC has been absolutely brutal on Mid Circ grades under grading many of them 10-15 points! Keep it up NGC!
There’s been a war going on for far longer than that. Sometimes it’s friendly and other times, not.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Trust me when I say I have attended every coin show from San Jose to Sacramento over the past two years and it is rare to find a higher grade Carson City Morgan in an NGC holder. In fact, most of the dealers seem somewhat incredulous when I inform them I'm looking for NGC slabbed coins. As a result, I decided to go the PCGS route with the plan to cross over to NGC. Little did I know I was entering a mine field.
Yeah, but NGC's approach...which bled over to PCGS for awhile is only doing customers of grading services a disservice. What has surprised me is a few knowledgeable dealers letting coins like this fly on ebay with no reserve, and no comment on being under graded.
What do all you guys and gals grade this coin?
I'm far from a Barber expert - but I'd say XF45 at first glance...
He was crossing TO NGC fron pcgs, not the other way around
I submitted a small group of coin to NGC late last year two of which were PCGS MS64 crackouts. It was ugly with both of those crackouts getting MS62 grades, they are very conservative currently. @pointfivezero why did you want to cross, if it was for use in the registry PCGS coins are now allowed in the NGC registry again as NGC prepares to start the ANA registry.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Fair question. I began my collecting adventure purchasing raw coins on ebay, using the NGC review service. The review fee was reimbursed if one submitted the coin to NGC for grading. Once I built a small collection, I started my registry during the NGC only phase. OCD insured my loyalty remained intact even after PCGS slabs were allowed. Of course, that's all out the window now....
Totally understandable, I too use the NGC registry more as it allows both services which suites my needs better.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
“The grading company might want to try to show that it’s more conservative than the competition and that only x% of coins cross.”
Next, I’ll hear that "Paul is dead" having died in a Car Accident in 1966 and replaced by a look-alike Scottish Orphan named William Shears Cambell who also went by Billy Shears!
😂
Wondercoin
I am glad that my collecting foibles do not include the need to have all one TPG coins... I have a mixture...mostly PCGS, but many NGC as well....That is because I buy the coin on it's own merits...and when I used to go to shows, there was always plenty of candidates to select from. Cheers, RickO
I hardy find anything in NGC, OGH/rattler holders or with a CrACk sticker that isn't a B-C coin.
I suspect they have been pretty well picked over by now.
My Saint Set
Then there are many conservatively graded coins which, for one reason or another, aren’t being made available to you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's like trying to find DDT in a hardware store....Those days are gone baby.
My Saint Set
If i wanna play that game i usually just crack out the coin and send raw. Ive had much better success like this. But majority of the time if its in a pcgs or ngc ill just leave it alone if im happy with it and invest the money elsewhere.
This sentence perfectly "encapsulates" my new philosophy. I just picked up an 1880-CC Rev of 78 in PCGS MS65. This one is staying at home!
NGC is playing games on not crossing the 81CC and 79CC at grade. If you do not want to crack out and submit raw, your option is to sell the coins and buy the coin in NGC holders, but you will be hard pressed to find equal or better coins in NGC holders at the same grade. Your coins are nice simply put them in your NGC registry.
You’re basing your “playing games“ conclusion on images and one-sided ones, at that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It was two rolls of 1912-S Nickels, as someone who watches the pop reports on Liberty Nickels, I was really confused when this was going on. Someone was also trying real hard for a MS67 during this time.
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Fair point, Mark. IMHO, these were as nice or nicer than their respective grades when viewing in person.
Here are the reverses. Interested in your thoughts:
1881-CC MS66+
1879-CC XF45
Ah! I stand corrected. I will change my post.
Interesting discussion.
As for me, I have never attempted to cross from PCGS to NGC.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
Thank you - the coins look fine to me, based upon the images. But I still wouldn’t so easily accuse a grading company of playing games, as another poster did.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
NGC did you a huge favor. Coins usually fetch more in PCGS plastic. Some times it is warranted. Other times it is not. And before you ask, I am not a Koolaid drinker. The market speaks for itself.
Two additional considerations:
A. At the margin, PCGS and NGC simply have different grading standards.
B. NGC graders might see substantially fewer holdered coins than PCGS graders do. Between Crossover and Reconsideration PCGS gets hundreds of thousands of coins each year where graders are forced to make decisions about the coins with the coin in-holder.
Brett Charville --- I work at PCGS
In the FWIW department, I have sent a note to the NGC Customer Service Manager to discuss possible recourse. At a minimum, I wanted to share my (and others here) opinion.
You have no recourse. You asked for their opinion, and they gave it to you. No collector or dealer agrees 100% on the results of their grading submissions all the time. Some times a coin may need to be submitted multiple times to get it in the "right" plastic at the desired grade. Sometimes you need to crack and submit as raw. I had one last year go from UNC details to MS66. 😮
Edited: typo
Both companies are great and do an impossible job incredibly well in my opinion.
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Hence my second sentence.....
Unless you are completely new to slabbed coins and TPGSs, which it appears you are not, then, honestly, what "recourse" would you expect as you paid for their opinion?
Unless going for a star (*) for an exceptional looking coin (such as superbly and nicely toned, or booming cam/dcam type of surface/frost/luster), WHY would you submit PCGS coins such as a morgan TO NGC? Generally speaking, with few exceptions, the PCGS slabbed coins will have a higher financial return than comparable NGC slabbed. Now, you have even more sunk into them for your costs.....
Also, unless I missed it, and given that I haven't seen these inhand, have you (or anyone to your knowledge) submitted these to CAC? If so, and they did NOT sticker, then that may be something to think about.....the opinions on the coins by people who have seen them inhand and with a lot of experience with coins.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
If you read back I asked the why and the op responded. As to your thoughts on added costs collectors do that here all the time, I admit that I quite dumbfounded by much of those actions as the amount of money wasted (imo) on reholders, TV's, and many other (imo) nonessential things is astounding. Most of the time its all about OCG stuff like having to have every coin in a collection be one plastic, or every coin has to have a photo with a matching background. Whatever makes everyone happy but it still puzzles me every day.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
To answer your questions,
1) I'm not sure there is any recourse but I certainly plan to share my opinion and the opinion of others in this thread with NGC. While I'm relatively new to slabbed coins, I do respect the opinion of my LCS and others who have responded.
2) I stated my reasons for submitting PCGS coins to NGC in an earlier post.
3) My experience in building my Carson City set belies your statement that PCGS slabbed coins have a higher financial return than comparable NGC versions. I have found a much smaller selection and similar if not higher prices for the NGC slabs.
just crossed 6 NGC's to PCGS high grade high priced. made 4. =67%
very happy.
one I will crack, then wave my magic wand over it ( let him who has ears understand) and resubmit.
we will see.
Congrats - now those are Hall of Fame numbers!
I played a few crossover games years ago. I pretty quickly decided that if I "needed" a coin in a certain holder it was cheaper, easier, and faster to buy it already in that holder. Once or twice I've told dealers that I'd be a buyer of a particular coin if they could get it into a certain holder, but that hasn't worked out (yet).
A budding Don Quixote.
NGC will not care what the birds have to say here, including your opinion. I mean no disrespect toward you in writing this.
@Catbert - no disrespect taken. I've found the NGC customer service team to be very responsive. I plan to post whatever (if any) reply I receive here in this thread.
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Maybe need a new service option of Reconsideration of Crossover
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Oh, for the old days when coins were coins,....and whizzed was BU. Wait, part of that was not good either.
Or perhaps knowledge was King. Makes me wonder sometimes where grading services would be without a little OCD.
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"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Update from email conversation with NGC CS Manager:
I heard back from the NGC Customer Service Manager this morning. As a courtesy and on an exception basis, NGC will allow me to return the six coins which failed to cross over and their graders will complete another review. While there is no guarantee this review will result in any changes, I appreciate the offer to return the coins for a second look.
More to come.