@amwldcoin said:
Yeah, but NGC's approach...which bled over to PCGS for awhile is only doing customers of grading services a disservice. What has surprised me is a few knowledgeable dealers letting coins like this fly on ebay with no reserve, and no comment on being under graded.
@amwldcoin said:
There's a silent War going on IMHO. This started when NGC called out PCGS for grade inflation with all the 85 V-Nickels that graded high...which was the result of two Gem rolls being submitted. I have reaped the benefits with my Barber Halves as NGC has been absolutely brutal on Mid Circ grades under grading many of them 10-15 points! Keep it up NGC!
There’s been a war going on for far longer than that. Sometimes it’s friendly and other times, not.
XF45 details old cleaning, net 35.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Odd. It’s a nice thing to do, but at the same it sort of calls into question their confidence that they got it right the first time. It will be interesting to see if anything changes.
I’ve done it myself though, and our host once graciously did more or less the same thing for me.
@amwldcoin said:
Yeah, but NGC's approach...which bled over to PCGS for awhile is only doing customers of grading services a disservice. What has surprised me is a few knowledgeable dealers letting coins like this fly on ebay with no reserve, and no comment on being under graded.
What do all you guys and gals grade this coin?
XF45 details old cleaning, net 35.
>
I responded with XF45 earlier but missed the Details. Still a nice coin!
@BryceM said:
Odd. It’s a nice thing to do, but at the same it sort of calls into question their confidence that they got it right the first time. It will be interesting to see if anything changes.
I’ve done it myself though, and our host once graciously did more or less the same thing for me.
I think if you consider it more you’ll see it’s just a free reconsideration. Reconsiderations, the crack out game, and subjective elements in grading all point to a degree of uncertainty about a grade. Both sides understand that and act it out.
My first reaction was the same as @BryceM, which is generally a very good thing!
It's nice for NGC to respond and reach out with the offer, but at the same time they are in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't position. If they allow more coins to cross they are implicitly stating that their own graders cannot be trusted to consistently adhere to the NGC grading policies or that the NGC grading policies for this tier are inadequate. However, if they don't allow any of the coins to successfully cross then they are implying that it is too bad for the submitter and to allow the submitter to eat additional postage costs for what might be cynically viewed as a PR game. It's a tough position to be in, especially if NGC is sincere in their offer.
@BryceM said:
Odd. It’s a nice thing to do, but at the same it sort of calls into question their confidence that they got it right the first time. It will be interesting to see if anything changes.
I’ve done it myself though, and our host once graciously did more or less the same thing for me.
I think if you consider it more you’ll see it’s just a free reconsideration. Reconsiderations, the crack out game, and subjective elements in grading all point to a degree of uncertainty about a grade. Both sides understand that and act it out.
I'm following you..... My basic issue is just that the whole reconsideration idea is weird. "Pay us for an opinion, and then, if you want, you can pay us again to see if we think our former opinion was wrong." There was one particular point in my life I would have liked to do that with a home appraisal. The concept of a do-over (Mulligan) does not float in that world.
In this case, they’re doing it for free, but as Tom said, it puts them in a weird spot either way.
Interesting exercise. I have never done a PCGS to NGC crossover attempt or vice versa, just not economical from my perspective. I can see that with registry sets. Also, have the coins been to cac? There is just too much subjectivity sometimes with coin submissions that I would not want to lose a money grade unless I had a couple major submitters advise that. PCGS plastic brings more money.
@amwldcoin said:
Yeah, but NGC's approach...which bled over to PCGS for awhile is only doing customers of grading services a disservice. What has surprised me is a few knowledgeable dealers letting coins like this fly on ebay with no reserve, and no comment on being under graded.
@amwldcoin said:
There's a silent War going on IMHO. This started when NGC called out PCGS for grade inflation with all the 85 V-Nickels that graded high...which was the result of two Gem rolls being submitted. I have reaped the benefits with my Barber Halves as NGC has been absolutely brutal on Mid Circ grades under grading many of them 10-15 points! Keep it up NGC!
There’s been a war going on for far longer than that. Sometimes it’s friendly and other times, not.
Darrell
Has the strong headband which is typical of 09 coins. I would grade at a 40. I’m betting by your comments though it received a VF grade. Nice coin!
@amwldcoin said:
There's a silent War going on IMHO. This started when NGC called out PCGS for grade inflation with all the 12-S V-Nickels that graded high...which was the result of two Gem rolls being submitted. I have reaped the benefits with my Barber Halves as NGC has been absolutely brutal on Mid Circ grades under grading many of them 10-15 points! Keep it up NGC!
Don't forget the gem roll or 1/2 roll (forget which) of the 12 S Nickels. A huge rise in pops of MS 66 business strike Liberty Nickels of all dates around 2015 made me give up trying to complete the set. I had 20 of them at the time. Getting them upgraded to MS 67 is as difficult now as it was years ago.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Now that I have received a second chance for a crossover possibility, I would appreciate opinions on whether any of these three should NOT be returned for review. I realize these are only pictures and not the best ones at that but hopefully they are good enough to advise if you see any reason not to return them. Pictures and opinions have already been posted on two other rejected coins earlier in this thread.
Please share your thoughts and opinions and thanks in advance:
@amwldcoin said:
Wish I could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned! It was in a VF30 holder! It has already found a home as an XF!
@pointfivezero said:
Now that I have received a second chance for a crossover possibility, I would appreciate opinions on whether any of these three should NOT be returned for review. I realize these are only pictures and not the best ones at that but hopefully they are good enough to advise if you see any reason not to return them. Pictures and opinions have already been posted on two other rejected coins earlier in this thread.
Please share your thoughts and opinions and thanks in advance:
Tim
If those coins were part of your original submission and an offer was made to review them at no cost, forget about any image-based opinions.😉 Even if none of them cross, perhaps you’ll be provided with a beneficial explanation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@pointfivezero said:
In the FWIW department, I have sent a note to the NGC Customer Service Manager to discuss possible recourse. At a minimum, I wanted to share my (and others here) opinion.
You have no recourse. You asked for their opinion, and they gave it to you. No collector or dealer agrees 100% on the results of their grading submissions all the time. Some times a coin may need to be submitted multiple times to get it in the "right" plastic at the desired grade. Sometimes you need to crack and submit as raw. I had one last year go from UNC details to MS66. 😮
@amwldcoin said:
Wish I could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned! It was in a VF30 holder! It has already found a home as an XF!
@amwldcoin said:
Wish I could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned! It was in a VF30 holder! It has already found a home as an XF!
I can't tell if that Barber half was cleaned or not, but the fact that it lives in a straight-grade holder doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't ever cleaned. Cleaning happens on a continuum but a grade/no-grade is a binary decision. Plenty of coins would bounce back and forth if submitted a number of times.
I will say this...was it ever lightly dipped or cleaned at some time? YES! Is this coin totally market acceptable as a problem free coin today? YES! IMHO less than 10% of coins in problem free holders to this day are original coins.
@amwldcoin said:
Wish I could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned! It was in a VF30 holder! It has already found a home as an XF!
@amwldcoin said:
I will say this...was it ever lightly dipped or cleaned at some time? YES! Is this coin totally market acceptable as a problem free coin today? YES! IMHO less than 10% of coins in problem free holders to this day are original coins.
@amwldcoin said:
Wish I could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned! It was in a VF30 holder! It has already found a home as an XF!
Considering the numerous, darker protected areas, laughing at those who guessed “cleaned”, would strike me as largely baseless and quite obnoxious.
Maybe I am. But even if so, I don’t think I’ve ever laughed at anyone for having an opinion about a coin, which differed from mine.
So you believe the coin was “lightly dipped or cleaned at some time”, yet you wish you “could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned”. Got it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Keep digging that hole with me...Maybe you will fall in it!
As such a stand up guy and a representative of Heritage....why didn't you address the thread where an expensive gold coin was sold around a year ago by Heritage in an NGC details holder and is now being auctioned by the company you represent in a problem free holder with no mention of it's past? The coin should never be in a problem free holder IMHO and I almost tagged you to see your response! I tried to find the thread but couldn't...wouldn't surprise me if it has been POOFED!
@amwldcoin said:
I will say this...was it ever lightly dipped or cleaned at some time? YES! Is this coin totally market acceptable as a problem free coin today? YES! IMHO less than 10% of coins in problem free holders to this day are original coins.
@amwldcoin said:
Wish I could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned! It was in a VF30 holder! It has already found a home as an XF!
Considering the numerous, darker protected areas, laughing at those who guessed “cleaned”, would strike me as largely baseless and quite obnoxious.
Maybe I am. But even if so, I don’t think I’ve ever laughed at anyone for having an opinion about a coin, which differed from mine.
So you believe the coin was “lightly dipped or cleaned at some time”, yet you wish you “could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned”. Got it.
Since I work for Heritage, I make it a point not to knowingly comment publicly on coins in our sales.
And I don’t want to assist you further in derailing this thread. Apologies to the OP and everyone else.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
Since I work for Heritage, I make it a point not to knowingly comment publicly on coins in our sales.
And I don’t want to assist you further in derailing this thread. Apologies to the OP and everyone else.
>
No problem, Mark. Always appreciate your input and value your advice.
Maybe someone can find the thread and bring it back up? I won't post anymore on this subject here. So you can slam others opinions and ride the high horse?
@MFeld said:
Since I work for Heritage, I make it a point not to knowingly comment publicly on coins in our sales.
And I don’t want to assist you further in derailing this thread. Apologies to the OP and everyone else.
I would like to clarify my statement here regarding original coins. This is does not include most coins post the late 30's or Morgan Dollars.
@amwldcoin said:
I will say this...was it ever lightly dipped or cleaned at some time? YES! Is this coin totally market acceptable as a problem free coin today? YES! IMHO less than 10% of coins in problem free holders to this day are original coins.
@amwldcoin said:
Wish I could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned! It was in a VF30 holder! It has already found a home as an XF!
@pointfivezero said:
Now that I have received a second chance for a crossover possibility, I would appreciate opinions on whether any of these three should NOT be returned for review. I realize these are only pictures and not the best ones at that but hopefully they are good enough to advise if you see any reason not to return them. Pictures and opinions have already been posted on two other rejected coins earlier in this thread.
Please share your thoughts and opinions and thanks in advance:
And back on track lol, it may be worth sending all three as Mark suggests, but I have my doubts on the 1885
@amwldcoin said:
Wish I could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned! It was in a VF30 holder! It has already found a home as an XF!
It's unquestionably cleaned and retoned regardless of what it is graded.
EDIT: I kept on reading. You admit it was cleaned but had to trash me for calling it so?
30 was a slight bit too harsh but I would not touch that thing with a 10 foot pole regardless of the grade, and I assume from the tone of your post, that you passed it onto a client at a nice profit, with no regard to their end and the loss they'll take on a blatantly cleaned and retoned coin whenever they move it along.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@oreville said:
I am surprised that the OP did not first attempt to see if CAC would sticker them.
My experience has been that NGC was tough between 1987 through 1995 and very loose thereafter.
>
Since the goal is an all NGC collection, I don’t submit to CAC in the PCGS holder. I do plan to submit a few of my NGC slabs to CAC in the near future though.
@davewesen said:
did you submit as cross at any grade or no downgrades?
does the MS66+ need to be MS66+ or more? and what about the PL, does that coin need to be MS66+ PL?
>
I submit as Same Grade or better although I hold no illusions of an upgrade. I do not want to lose any tier, + or PL. I will keep them in the PCGS holder if they fail to achieve the same grade with NGC.
@pointfivezero, I have virtually all of my collection in PCGS plastic, but I don't see any compelling reason why others shouldn't do theirs in NGC plastic. I actually think having two strong competitors avoids monopoly-like thinking and keeps everyone on their toes.
Do realize, though, that you're asking the question on a forum belonging to PCGS. You're not likely to find too many people here who don't already have a strong bias in one direction. Most folks here wouldn't dream of trying to cross coins in that direction, don't have much experience with it, and probably can't provide the sort of advice you'd like.
I wouldn't say I slammed you. My take on the coin is it was probably dipped 40 or more years ago and has retoned. My opinion is also the majority of silver coins pre 1930(besides Morgan Dollars) have also been dipped or lightly cleaned at some time. This includes the majority of coins in TPG holders. That's why I laugh about it.
@amwldcoin said:
Wish I could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned! It was in a VF30 holder! It has already found a home as an XF!
It's unquestionably cleaned and retoned regardless of what it is graded.
EDIT: I kept on reading. You admit it was cleaned but had to trash me for calling it so?
30 was a slight bit too harsh but I would not touch that thing with a 10 foot pole regardless of the grade, and I assume from the tone of your post, that you passed it onto a client at a nice profit, with no regard to their end and the loss they'll take on a blatantly cleaned and retoned coin whenever they move it along.
@pointfivezero said:
In the FWIW department, I have sent a note to the NGC Customer Service Manager to discuss possible recourse. At a minimum, I wanted to share my (and others here) opinion.
You have no recourse. You asked for their opinion, and they gave it to you. No collector or dealer agrees 100% on the results of their grading submissions all the time. Some times a coin may need to be submitted multiple times to get it in the "right" plastic at the desired grade. Sometimes you need to crack and submit as raw. I had one last year go from UNC details to MS66. 😮
Edited: typo
What was the UNC Details? Just curious. I have a QC that I wonder if resubbed raw may gat a straight grade. Thanks.
I think your decision time might be telling you to buy the coins you want already in the holder you prefer; to simply keep them in the holders that you acquire them in or to think about using a different TPG.
I would crack them and resubmit to NGC raw. It would be interesting to see if the grades would change. It would also make for some interesting conversation here!
@TomB said:
I think your decision time might be telling you to buy the coins you want already in the holder you prefer; to simply keep them in the holders that you acquire them in or to think about using a different TPG.
I tried that route when starting my collection. Had I built my collection initially with PCGS, this entire thread would be a moot point but as I mentioned earlier, I chose to build an NGC registry for various reasons. Eventually, I found the selection too limiting to achieve my desired results and decided to try this crossover route. The rest is history.
I understand your desire and/or goal for your collection and find it completely reasonable. I also recall that earlier in the thread you may have mentioned that you are relatively new to the hobby-industry. However, I must admit that although I have read through the thread, I have not done a refresher reading prior to posting this comment, which means I might be missing something.
Where I am going with this is that you may (please take this as "may" and not as "are") be inexperienced enough that you are actually buying lower end coins for the assigned grade. If so, then it would make sense to have a low crossover success rate. PCGS and NGC both have their own proprietary, in-house grading standards and while they agree in large measure across most series and most grade ranges, they differ on the upper and lower levels of each grade window and upon how each company values specific qualities for each coin. Therefore, the assigned grade by PCGS and the failure to cross to NGC might actually mean both services are correct and consistent relative to their in-house grading standards.
Additionally, it looks as though many (most?) of the Morgan dollars you have shared appear to be in new PCGS holders and, to me, this might indicate they are relatively recent upgrades of coins that had been in older, lower graded holders. This may not be the case and I also may be misjudging the generation PCGS holder, but if you are newer to the field and are buying recent upgrades then the chance of a crossover is diminished. Lastly, it might be the lighting in the image provided, but that 1893-CC PCGS EF45 looks like a bad coin and I am not surprised it might fail to cross.
Good luck on your endeavor and I hope it all turns out well for you!
@TomB said:
I understand your desire and/or goal for your collection and find it completely reasonable. I also recall that earlier in the thread you may have mentioned that you are relatively new to the hobby-industry. However, I must admit that although I have read through the thread, I have not done a refresher reading prior to posting this comment, which means I might be missing something.
Where I am going with this is that you may (please take this as "may" and not as "are") be inexperienced enough that you are actually buying lower end coins for the assigned grade. If so, then it would make sense to have a low crossover success rate. PCGS and NGC both have their own proprietary, in-house grading standards and while they agree in large measure across most series and most grade ranges, they differ on the upper and lower levels of each grade window and upon how each company values specific qualities for each coin. Therefore, the assigned grade by PCGS and the failure to cross to NGC might actually mean both services are correct and consistent relative to their in-house grading standards.
Additionally, it looks as though many (most?) of the Morgan dollars you have shared appear to be in new PCGS holders and, to me, this might indicate they are relatively recent upgrades of coins that had been in older, lower graded holders. This may not be the case and I also may be misjudging the generation PCGS holder, but if you are newer to the field and are buying recent upgrades then the chance of a crossover is diminished. Lastly, it might be the lighting in the image provided, but that 1893-CC PCGS EF45 looks like a bad coin and I am not surprised it might fail to cross.
Good luck on your endeavor and I hope it all turns out well for you!
It could be the lighting, but the 1893-CC which Tom mentioned, quickly caught my eye as a coin that looks cleaned. And while, if they feel that the cleaning is market acceptable, each company allows cleaned coins in their holders, my guess is that NGC didn't feel that the coin was acceptable at a straight grade.
On a somewhat different, but related topic, I believe that on a per-post basis, Tom B. provides as much level headiness, good information, insight and advice, as anyone.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
One can look at grading standards...grading policies... Grading conservative or loose or whatever. At the end of the day, all of that does not matter. It simply does not matter because Grading has a subjective component. So what matters is the recognition that grading is merely an opinion. And opinions can change and some opinions are better than others.
What also matters is the recognition that not all coins at the same grade level are created equal. A slab or a sticker does not magically transform a coin. The coin remains constant (unless it is cracked out and enhanced) but the opinion of the coin may change.
Like it or not...that is the way it is.
So all this talk about grading standards, grading policies and crossing and stickers is not a substitute for the ability to recognize what is matters... The coin and what sets that coin apart from others.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Appreciate the words of wisdom and great advice. For the record, I agree with your collective opinions on the 1893-CC XF45 and did not plan to resubmit. After reading all the posts in this thread and doing some soul searching, I've decided to decline NGC's kind offer to reconsider the crossover results and just add these PCGS Morgans to my NGC registry.
Since two two XF45's I submitted were both rejected in this latest round, I tried to capture them side by side. Apologize in advice for the terrible iphone pictures but hopefully one can see the differences even within the same TPG at the same grade.
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Excellent decesion to add your PCGS coins to the NGC registry. in time it will not make any difference and it will save you money, and make your selection process easier. I went through a similar process a few years ago when NGC bounced PCGS coins from their registry. I had a registry set that was in progress with both PCGS and NGC coins. I made a decesion to convert the entire set to PCGS. I completed the registry set in PCGS coins, and my coins really look good in the PCGS virtual album, but I proberly will not to do another registry set.
Excellent decesion to add your PCGS coins to the NGC registry. in time it will not make any difference and it will save you money, and make your selection process easier. I went through a similar process a few years ago when NGC bounced PCGS coins from their registry. I had a registry set that was in progress with both PCGS and NGC coins. I made a decesion to convert the entire set to PCGS. I completed the registry set in PCGS coins, and my coins really look good in the PCGS virtual album, but I proberly will not to do another registry set.
Appreciate the supportive words. I slept well last night knowing my registry consists of graded CC's from the two best TPG's on the planet. My goal is to get to the Top 40 with NGC - still a ways to go:
Comments
XF45 details old cleaning, net 35.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Odd. It’s a nice thing to do, but at the same it sort of calls into question their confidence that they got it right the first time. It will be interesting to see if anything changes.
I’ve done it myself though, and our host once graciously did more or less the same thing for me.
>
I responded with XF45 earlier but missed the Details. Still a nice coin!
I think if you consider it more you’ll see it’s just a free reconsideration. Reconsiderations, the crack out game, and subjective elements in grading all point to a degree of uncertainty about a grade. Both sides understand that and act it out.
My first reaction was the same as @BryceM, which is generally a very good thing!
It's nice for NGC to respond and reach out with the offer, but at the same time they are in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't position. If they allow more coins to cross they are implicitly stating that their own graders cannot be trusted to consistently adhere to the NGC grading policies or that the NGC grading policies for this tier are inadequate. However, if they don't allow any of the coins to successfully cross then they are implying that it is too bad for the submitter and to allow the submitter to eat additional postage costs for what might be cynically viewed as a PR game. It's a tough position to be in, especially if NGC is sincere in their offer.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I'm following you..... My basic issue is just that the whole reconsideration idea is weird. "Pay us for an opinion, and then, if you want, you can pay us again to see if we think our former opinion was wrong." There was one particular point in my life I would have liked to do that with a home appraisal. The concept of a do-over (Mulligan) does not float in that world.
In this case, they’re doing it for free, but as Tom said, it puts them in a weird spot either way.
Interesting exercise. I have never done a PCGS to NGC crossover attempt or vice versa, just not economical from my perspective. I can see that with registry sets. Also, have the coins been to cac? There is just too much subjectivity sometimes with coin submissions that I would not want to lose a money grade unless I had a couple major submitters advise that. PCGS plastic brings more money.
Darrell
Has the strong headband which is typical of 09 coins. I would grade at a 40. I’m betting by your comments though it received a VF grade. Nice coin!
Wish I could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned! It was in a VF30 holder!
It has already found a home as an XF!
@No Headlights I grade it a 40 as well.
Don't forget the gem roll or 1/2 roll (forget which) of the 12 S Nickels. A huge rise in pops of MS 66 business strike Liberty Nickels of all dates around 2015 made me give up trying to complete the set. I had 20 of them at the time. Getting them upgraded to MS 67 is as difficult now as it was years ago.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Now that I have received a second chance for a crossover possibility, I would appreciate opinions on whether any of these three should NOT be returned for review. I realize these are only pictures and not the best ones at that but hopefully they are good enough to advise if you see any reason not to return them. Pictures and opinions have already been posted on two other rejected coins earlier in this thread.
Please share your thoughts and opinions and thanks in advance:
Tim
Considering the numerous, darker protected areas, laughing at those who guessed “cleaned”, would strike me as largely baseless and quite obnoxious.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If those coins were part of your original submission and an offer was made to review them at no cost, forget about any image-based opinions.😉 Even if none of them cross, perhaps you’ll be provided with a beneficial explanation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I had one go from MS66 to genuine unc...
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
LOL! And you are not obnoxious?
WHY,,,,, oh WHY,,,,,,, would you want to cross PCGS to NGC,,,,,,, on my,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Maybe I am. But even if so, I don’t think I’ve ever laughed at anyone for having an opinion about a coin, which differed from mine.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Count me among the laughed-at whose first feeling when viewing those pics was “cleaned”. Not every cleaning leaves hairlines.
I can't tell if that Barber half was cleaned or not, but the fact that it lives in a straight-grade holder doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't ever cleaned. Cleaning happens on a continuum but a grade/no-grade is a binary decision. Plenty of coins would bounce back and forth if submitted a number of times.
I will say this...was it ever lightly dipped or cleaned at some time? YES! Is this coin totally market acceptable as a problem free coin today? YES! IMHO less than 10% of coins in problem free holders to this day are original coins.
So you believe the coin was “lightly dipped or cleaned at some time”, yet you wish you “could insert an audio clip of laughing for those who called it cleaned”. Got it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Keep digging that hole with me...Maybe you will fall in it!
As such a stand up guy and a representative of Heritage....why didn't you address the thread where an expensive gold coin was sold around a year ago by Heritage in an NGC details holder and is now being auctioned by the company you represent in a problem free holder with no mention of it's past? The coin should never be in a problem free holder IMHO and I almost tagged you to see your response! I tried to find the thread but couldn't...wouldn't surprise me if it has been POOFED!
Since I work for Heritage, I make it a point not to knowingly comment publicly on coins in our sales.
And I don’t want to assist you further in derailing this thread. Apologies to the OP and everyone else.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
>
No problem, Mark. Always appreciate your input and value your advice.
Maybe someone can find the thread and bring it back up? I won't post anymore on this subject here. So you can slam others opinions and ride the high horse?
I would like to clarify my statement here regarding original coins. This is does not include most coins post the late 30's or Morgan Dollars.
I would leave them alone in the PCGS holders.
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And back on track lol, it may be worth sending all three as Mark suggests, but I have my doubts on the 1885
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
It's unquestionably cleaned and retoned regardless of what it is graded.
EDIT: I kept on reading. You admit it was cleaned but had to trash me for calling it so?
30 was a slight bit too harsh but I would not touch that thing with a 10 foot pole regardless of the grade, and I assume from the tone of your post, that you passed it onto a client at a nice profit, with no regard to their end and the loss they'll take on a blatantly cleaned and retoned coin whenever they move it along.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I am surprised that the OP did not first attempt to see if CAC would sticker them.
My experience has been that NGC was tough between 1987 through 1995 and very loose thereafter.
did you submit as cross at any grade or no downgrades?
does the MS66+ need to be MS66+ or more? and what about the PL, does that coin need to be MS66+ PL?
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Since the goal is an all NGC collection, I don’t submit to CAC in the PCGS holder. I do plan to submit a few of my NGC slabs to CAC in the near future though.
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I submit as Same Grade or better although I hold no illusions of an upgrade. I do not want to lose any tier, + or PL. I will keep them in the PCGS holder if they fail to achieve the same grade with NGC.
@pointfivezero, I have virtually all of my collection in PCGS plastic, but I don't see any compelling reason why others shouldn't do theirs in NGC plastic. I actually think having two strong competitors avoids monopoly-like thinking and keeps everyone on their toes.
Do realize, though, that you're asking the question on a forum belonging to PCGS. You're not likely to find too many people here who don't already have a strong bias in one direction. Most folks here wouldn't dream of trying to cross coins in that direction, don't have much experience with it, and probably can't provide the sort of advice you'd like.
I wouldn't say I slammed you. My take on the coin is it was probably dipped 40 or more years ago and has retoned. My opinion is also the majority of silver coins pre 1930(besides Morgan Dollars) have also been dipped or lightly cleaned at some time. This includes the majority of coins in TPG holders. That's why I laugh about it.
What was the UNC Details? Just curious. I have a QC that I wonder if resubbed raw may gat a straight grade. Thanks.
Decision time - Just received the last submission back from NGC:
1879-CC XF45 Failed to cross
1880-CC MS66 Crossed
1881-CC MS66+ Failed to cross
1893-CC XF45 Failed to cross
I think your decision time might be telling you to buy the coins you want already in the holder you prefer; to simply keep them in the holders that you acquire them in or to think about using a different TPG.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I certainly hope not!
I would crack them and resubmit to NGC raw. It would be interesting to see if the grades would change. It would also make for some interesting conversation here!
I tried that route when starting my collection. Had I built my collection initially with PCGS, this entire thread would be a moot point but as I mentioned earlier, I chose to build an NGC registry for various reasons. Eventually, I found the selection too limiting to achieve my desired results and decided to try this crossover route. The rest is history.
I understand your desire and/or goal for your collection and find it completely reasonable. I also recall that earlier in the thread you may have mentioned that you are relatively new to the hobby-industry. However, I must admit that although I have read through the thread, I have not done a refresher reading prior to posting this comment, which means I might be missing something.
Where I am going with this is that you may (please take this as "may" and not as "are") be inexperienced enough that you are actually buying lower end coins for the assigned grade. If so, then it would make sense to have a low crossover success rate. PCGS and NGC both have their own proprietary, in-house grading standards and while they agree in large measure across most series and most grade ranges, they differ on the upper and lower levels of each grade window and upon how each company values specific qualities for each coin. Therefore, the assigned grade by PCGS and the failure to cross to NGC might actually mean both services are correct and consistent relative to their in-house grading standards.
Additionally, it looks as though many (most?) of the Morgan dollars you have shared appear to be in new PCGS holders and, to me, this might indicate they are relatively recent upgrades of coins that had been in older, lower graded holders. This may not be the case and I also may be misjudging the generation PCGS holder, but if you are newer to the field and are buying recent upgrades then the chance of a crossover is diminished. Lastly, it might be the lighting in the image provided, but that 1893-CC PCGS EF45 looks like a bad coin and I am not surprised it might fail to cross.
Good luck on your endeavor and I hope it all turns out well for you!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
It could be the lighting, but the 1893-CC which Tom mentioned, quickly caught my eye as a coin that looks cleaned. And while, if they feel that the cleaning is market acceptable, each company allows cleaned coins in their holders, my guess is that NGC didn't feel that the coin was acceptable at a straight grade.
On a somewhat different, but related topic, I believe that on a per-post basis, Tom B. provides as much level headiness, good information, insight and advice, as anyone.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
One can look at grading standards...grading policies... Grading conservative or loose or whatever. At the end of the day, all of that does not matter. It simply does not matter because Grading has a subjective component. So what matters is the recognition that grading is merely an opinion. And opinions can change and some opinions are better than others.
What also matters is the recognition that not all coins at the same grade level are created equal. A slab or a sticker does not magically transform a coin. The coin remains constant (unless it is cracked out and enhanced) but the opinion of the coin may change.
Like it or not...that is the way it is.
So all this talk about grading standards, grading policies and crossing and stickers is not a substitute for the ability to recognize what is matters... The coin and what sets that coin apart from others.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@coinkat, @MFeld, @TomB
Appreciate the words of wisdom and great advice. For the record, I agree with your collective opinions on the 1893-CC XF45 and did not plan to resubmit. After reading all the posts in this thread and doing some soul searching, I've decided to decline NGC's kind offer to reconsider the crossover results and just add these PCGS Morgans to my NGC registry.
Since two two XF45's I submitted were both rejected in this latest round, I tried to capture them side by side. Apologize in advice for the terrible iphone pictures but hopefully one can see the differences even within the same TPG at the same grade.
1893-CC is on the left:
That's interesting.
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Excellent decesion to add your PCGS coins to the NGC registry. in time it will not make any difference and it will save you money, and make your selection process easier. I went through a similar process a few years ago when NGC bounced PCGS coins from their registry. I had a registry set that was in progress with both PCGS and NGC coins. I made a decesion to convert the entire set to PCGS. I completed the registry set in PCGS coins, and my coins really look good in the PCGS virtual album, but I proberly will not to do another registry set.
Appreciate the supportive words. I slept well last night knowing my registry consists of graded CC's from the two best TPG's on the planet. My goal is to get to the Top 40 with NGC - still a ways to go:
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/245842/
Tim