Excellent decesion to add your PCGS coins to the NGC registry. in time it will not make any difference and it will save you money, and make your selection process easier. I went through a similar process a few years ago when NGC bounced PCGS coins from their registry. I had a registry set that was in progress with both PCGS and NGC coins. I made a decesion to convert the entire set to PCGS. I completed the registry set in PCGS coins, and my coins really look good in the PCGS virtual album, but I proberly will not to do another registry set.
Excellent decesion to add your PCGS coins to the NGC registry. in time it will not make any difference and it will save you money, and make your selection process easier. I went through a similar process a few years ago when NGC bounced PCGS coins from their registry. I had a registry set that was in progress with both PCGS and NGC coins. I made a decesion to convert the entire set to PCGS. I completed the registry set in PCGS coins, and my coins really look good in the PCGS virtual album, but I proberly will not to do another registry set.
Appreciate the supportive words. I slept well last night knowing my registry consists of graded CC's from the two best TPG's on the planet. My goal is to get to the Top 40 with NGC - still a ways to go:
I have read . . and reread the thread as I am sure our Mods have and many who have interest.
Overall . . . for the benefit of the hobby, I like to see discussion on the changes, intensity, and time frames of grading. I don't think that is a negative at all (Mods). I personally support the host's site, vision, and plan for long-term hobby health. Yes . . I did several Registry Sets of note (Top 50 Morgan, Top 20 Classic Commem, and Top 10 Type), although I no longer work in that direction . . . and the ATS coins were just not a factor for me at that time. BUT . . . there are MANY superb coins in both of our competing top-tier (complement there) services . . . and the chance for any of us, as numismatists, to discern quality within each service is one of the nuances that makes this hobby so intensely fun !
I appreciate the discussion, professionalism, and knowledge I gain from threads like these . . . .
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
I have never seen a dealer that doesn't use any excuse to buy for less when possible, or every excuse to sell for more when possible.
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
I can only comment on the purchasing side of the equation and only for the past 12 - 18 months in which I've been serious about building my Registry. I've completed purchases on ebay, Heritage, Stacks, GC, DLRC, Liberty, local coin shops and local coin shows. My non-scientific observation has been that NGC holders command as much or more than the exact same grade as PCGS. As I said, this could reflect the greater supply of PCGS coins. Now that NGC accepts PCGS holders in their registry, it will be interesting to see if this reduces demand for NGC coins, especially on the high end examples.
I'm sure incontrovertible evidence exists in the marketplace. I'm only relaying my experience and my opinion.
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
I have never seen a dealer that doesn't use any excuse to buy for less when possible, or every excuse to sell for more when possible.
Really? Not a single dealer in a single instance? How many dealers have you dealt with?
My experience has been that some dealers almost always offer low prices and ask high ones, while others are usually very reasonable. Likewise, whether buying or selling, some collectors are very reasonable, yet others are unrealistic.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
With my Barber Halves. If I have an NGC and a PCGS example of the same date and same grade of equal quality I usually sell the NGC coin for the same price as a PCGS coin less the cost to get the NGC coin crossed to PCGS. Yes, I am biased towards PCGS!
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
I have never seen a dealer that doesn't use any excuse to buy for less when possible, or every excuse to sell for more when possible.
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
I can only comment on the purchasing side of the equation and only for the past 12 - 18 months in which I've been serious about building my Registry. I've completed purchases on ebay, Heritage, Stacks, GC, DLRC, Liberty, local coin shops and local coin shows. My non-scientific observation has been that NGC holders command as much or more than the exact same grade as PCGS. As I said, this could reflect the greater supply of PCGS coins. Now that NGC accepts PCGS holders in their registry, it will be interesting to see if this reduces demand for NGC coins, especially on the high end examples.
I'm sure incontrovertible evidence exists in the marketplace. I'm only relaying my experience and my opinion.
For what it's worth, I checked our prices realized for NGC and PCGS MS66 1885-CC's and 1880-CC's from December of last year to the present. I excluded any that were plus and/or varieties and/or CAC examples. Here are the results.
1885-CC
PCGS $2160 this month
NGC $1260 this month
PCGS $1260 this month
PCGS $1320 this month
PCGS $1380 this month
PCGS $1350 February
PCGS $1260 January
NGC $1080 December
PCGS $1440 December
PCGS $1380 December
PCGS $1080 December
PCGS $1263 December
1880-CC
PCGS $1560 this month
PCGS $1440 this month
PCGS $1140 March
NGC $1500 February
PCGS $1320 February
NGC $1320 February
PCGS $2400 January
PCGS $1140 January
PCGS $1320 December
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld - thanks for sharing this data. Given the fliers for each year ($2160 - 1885-CC & $2400 - 1880-CC), I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions other than to observe the previously noted larger availability of PCGS holders. The ratio appears to be about 80:20.
@pointfivezero said: @MFeld - thanks for sharing this data. Given the fliers for each year ($2160 - 1885-CC & $2400 - 1880-CC), I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions other than to observe the previously noted larger availability of PCGS holders. The ratio appears to be about 80:20.
You're most welcome and I agree that (unfortunately) we cant necessarily draw any new conclusions,
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
I have never seen a dealer that doesn't use any excuse to buy for less when possible, or every excuse to sell for more when possible.
Really? Not a single dealer in a single instance? How many dealers have you dealt with?
My experience has been that some dealers almost always offer low prices and ask high ones, while others are usually very reasonable. Likewise, whether buying or selling, some collectors are very reasonable, yet others are unrealistic.
Nope I cannot recall a single dealer or a single instance at a show where when trying to sell the answer was not along the lines of; the market has shifted, I have many of those, its overgraded, and on and on. Yet when selling I only hear how its a choice gem, undergraded, not another one like on the bourse, and on and on. I will also point out that reasonable is a highly subjective criteria and you might have some trouble getting even two individuals to agree on what is or is not reasonable.
Now I'm not a show going collector, the only show I go to is Long Beach, every other show is too far away and the costs to attend would far outweigh any benefit so I'll admit that while my show selling experiences are biased on limited opportunity I don't feel that it would be any different at FUN or the ANA. And I'm sorry I have no idea how many dealers I've dealt with over the past 30+ years, what I have learned from those experiences is that I'm far better off using an auction venue like GC or even Ebay when selling than to sell to a dealer. Also in my experience some people in general can be very reasonable yet others are unrealistic, that is not limited to dealers and/or collectors.
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
I can only comment on the purchasing side of the equation and only for the past 12 - 18 months in which I've been serious about building my Registry. I've completed purchases on ebay, Heritage, Stacks, GC, DLRC, Liberty, local coin shops and local coin shows. My non-scientific observation has been that NGC holders command as much or more than the exact same grade as PCGS. As I said, this could reflect the greater supply of PCGS coins. Now that NGC accepts PCGS holders in their registry, it will be interesting to see if this reduces demand for NGC coins, especially on the high end examples.
I'm sure incontrovertible evidence exists in the marketplace. I'm only relaying my experience and my opinion.
For what it's worth, I checked our prices realized for NGC and PCGS MS66 1885-CC's and 1880-CC's from December of last year to the present. I excluded any that were plus and/or varieties and/or CAC examples. Here are the results.
1885-CC
PCGS $2160 this month
NGC $1260 this month
PCGS $1260 this month
PCGS $1320 this month
PCGS $1380 this month
PCGS $1350 February
PCGS $1260 January
NGC $1080 December
PCGS $1440 December
PCGS $1380 December
PCGS $1080 December
PCGS $1263 December
1880-CC
PCGS $1560 this month
PCGS $1440 this month
PCGS $1140 March
NGC $1500 February
PCGS $1320 February
NGC $1320 February
PCGS $2400 January
PCGS $1140 January
PCGS $1320 December
Would you not agree that auction sales are quite different from retail sales?
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
I can only comment on the purchasing side of the equation and only for the past 12 - 18 months in which I've been serious about building my Registry. I've completed purchases on ebay, Heritage, Stacks, GC, DLRC, Liberty, local coin shops and local coin shows. My non-scientific observation has been that NGC holders command as much or more than the exact same grade as PCGS. As I said, this could reflect the greater supply of PCGS coins. Now that NGC accepts PCGS holders in their registry, it will be interesting to see if this reduces demand for NGC coins, especially on the high end examples.
I'm sure incontrovertible evidence exists in the marketplace. I'm only relaying my experience and my opinion.
For what it's worth, I checked our prices realized for NGC and PCGS MS66 1885-CC's and 1880-CC's from December of last year to the present. I excluded any that were plus and/or varieties and/or CAC examples. Here are the results.
1885-CC
PCGS $2160 this month
NGC $1260 this month
PCGS $1260 this month
PCGS $1320 this month
PCGS $1380 this month
PCGS $1350 February
PCGS $1260 January
NGC $1080 December
PCGS $1440 December
PCGS $1380 December
PCGS $1080 December
PCGS $1263 December
1880-CC
PCGS $1560 this month
PCGS $1440 this month
PCGS $1140 March
NGC $1500 February
PCGS $1320 February
NGC $1320 February
PCGS $2400 January
PCGS $1140 January
PCGS $1320 December
Would you not agree that auction sales are quite different from retail sales?
In many cases, yes. I've seen some coins auctioned for considerably more than was being asked by a retail seller and others sell for quite a bit less.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
While not definitive, one might look to compare the Bluesheet prices for identical PCGS and NGC graded coins.
I have not subscribed to the Bluesheet for over a decade since, in my opinion, it did not cater information toward the areas that I tend to deal or collect in. However, I have historically believed that Bluesheet numbers are representative of the absolute worst piece of negative eye appeal, over-graded, have no business being in that holder pieces that might be found in either a PCGS or NGC holder. As such, it might be viewed as the absolute floor of value for either grading service in a given grade and for a given issue. It isn't perfect, but it is a large canvas of non-cherrypicked data.
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
I have never seen a dealer that doesn't use any excuse to buy for less when possible, or every excuse to sell for more when possible.
Really? Not a single dealer in a single instance? How many dealers have you dealt with?
My experience has been that some dealers almost always offer low prices and ask high ones, while others are usually very reasonable. Likewise, whether buying or selling, some collectors are very reasonable, yet others are unrealistic.
Nope I cannot recall a single dealer or a single instance at a show where when trying to sell the answer was not along the lines of; the market has shifted, I have many of those, its overgraded, and on and on. Yet when selling I only hear how its a choice gem, undergraded, not another one like on the bourse, and on and on. I will also point out that reasonable is a highly subjective criteria and you might have some trouble getting even two individuals to agree on what is or is not reasonable.
Now I'm not a show going collector, the only show I go to is Long Beach, every other show is too far away and the costs to attend would far outweigh any benefit so I'll admit that while my show selling experiences are biased on limited opportunity I don't feel that it would be any different at FUN or the ANA. And I'm sorry I have no idea how many dealers I've dealt with over the past 30+ years, what I have learned from those experiences is that I'm far better off using an auction venue like GC or even Ebay when selling than to sell to a dealer. Also in my experience some people in general can be very reasonable yet others are unrealistic, that is not limited to dealers and/or collectors.
Thank you for taking the time to answer and I'm sorry that your experiences were not considerably better.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The moral of this story is registry collecting makes otherwise smart people do questionable things
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@TomB said:
I think your decision time might be telling you to buy the coins you want already in the holder you prefer; to simply keep them in the holders that you acquire them in or to think about using a different TPG.
@btcollects said:
reading this dust up has sweetened my morning coffee, gents! thank you!
amwldcoin versus mfeld has the potential to be another deep well of glorious drama, not unlike Skip versus Roger, or Laura versus everybody
hope is alive here in the peanut gallery!
seriously, isn't the takeaway to look for undergraded cc dollars in NGC plastic and cross them to PCGS?
duh, right?
Sorry. Sharp eyed dealers who handle a large volume of expensive coins will find any undergraded coins and upgrade or cross them before the typical collector ever sees them. The collector's best bet is to buy a really nice for the grade coin, and sit on it for ten or twenty years, and then, maybe, he (she) will get an upgrade. On about fifteen submissions, I've received four pluses and one major upgrade this way.
I have long since given up trying to get a same grade cross from NGC to PCGS plastic. If I have a nice NGC coin, I try to get it stickered, and that's it. Might add that I don't do registries, and don't care about the holder. I care about the coin.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@TomB said:
I think your decision time might be telling you to buy the coins you want already in the holder you prefer; to simply keep them in the holders that you acquire them in or to think about using a different TPG.
@btcollects said:
reading this dust up has sweetened my morning coffee, gents! thank you!
amwldcoin versus mfeld has the potential to be another deep well of glorious drama, not unlike Skip versus Roger, or Laura versus everybody
hope is alive here in the peanut gallery!
seriously, isn't the takeaway to look for undergraded cc dollars in NGC plastic and cross them to PCGS?
duh, right?
Sorry. Sharp eyed dealers who handle a large volume of expensive coins will find any undergraded coins and upgrade or cross them before the typical collector ever sees them. The collector's best bet is to buy a really nice for the grade coin, and sit on it for ten or twenty years, and then, maybe, he (she) will get an upgrade. On about fifteen submissions, I've received four pluses and one major upgrade this way.
I have long since given up trying to get a same grade cross from NGC to PCGS plastic. If I have a nice NGC coin, I try to get it stickered, and that's it. Might add that I don't do registries, and don't care about the holder. I care about the coin.
Yes, generally I agree with you. Here, if it's really true that NGC is consistently a point tougher on cc Morgans, and the market values PCGS the same or more, then it would seem to make sense that NGC cc dollars would be a target for crackouts. I've got other things to do, thankfully, but it seems like a testable idea. The idea being that if you make money selling upgrades, you can build a better collection of whatever you want. OP got it backwards.
It’s not “really true that NGC is consistently a point tougher on cc Morgans” and I don’t think anyone has said that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@TomB said:
I think your decision time might be telling you to buy the coins you want already in the holder you prefer; to simply keep them in the holders that you acquire them in or to think about using a different TPG.
@btcollects said:
reading this dust up has sweetened my morning coffee, gents! thank you!
amwldcoin versus mfeld has the potential to be another deep well of glorious drama, not unlike Skip versus Roger, or Laura versus everybody
hope is alive here in the peanut gallery!
seriously, isn't the takeaway to look for undergraded cc dollars in NGC plastic and cross them to PCGS?
duh, right?
Sorry. Sharp eyed dealers who handle a large volume of expensive coins will find any undergraded coins and upgrade or cross them before the typical collector ever sees them. The collector's best bet is to buy a really nice for the grade coin, and sit on it for ten or twenty years, and then, maybe, he (she) will get an upgrade. On about fifteen submissions, I've received four pluses and one major upgrade this way.
I have long since given up trying to get a same grade cross from NGC to PCGS plastic. If I have a nice NGC coin, I try to get it stickered, and that's it. Might add that I don't do registries, and don't care about the holder. I care about the coin.
Yes, generally I agree with you. Here, if it's really true that NGC is consistently a point tougher on cc Morgans, and the market values PCGS the same or more, then it would seem to make sense that NGC cc dollars would be a target for crackouts. I've got other things to do, thankfully, but it seems like a testable idea. The idea being that if you make money selling upgrades, you can build a better collection of whatever you want. OP got it backwards.
It’s not “really true that NGC is consistently a point tougher on cc Morgans” and I don’t think anyone has said that.
In my experience, NGC is generally 1/2 a point too loose on Morgans and PCGS is right on the dot most of the time.
Dogs exist in both holders.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I have read all the previous posts and just wanted to offer another opinion. I have cracked coins out of holders and sent them in with multiple different results each way. The people grading these coins are not all equal in their knowledge and skills. Coins that were graded as cleaned and re colored came back graded normally and some that were graded normally came back saying they were now re colored or not able to be graded. I have seen a 9 point difference in grading a coin from one company to another because it was a year that had very weak strikes on the coins. Maybe it would be better if machines graded them?
Big picture is that on average both TPG's can only cross at most 40-45% of the other guy's coins. To go higher invites the unwanted opinion that they are the loosest grading service. The only way to figure out who is the looser grading company is to submit the same sets of coins to each service multiple times, and average them up. Crossing is merely the appearance of wanting better coins in your holders...and rejecting anything that isn't truly nice for the grade. If both services were willing to cross the same coin....you're likely looking at a CAC-level coin....an A or B coin. Bottom line, you can't come with away with any firm answers on coins that didn't cross. Essentially, half the coins cannot cross, so on average, half of each submission has to be rejected as "did not cross." Those are the rules.
Another subtle point is figure every coin residing in a current holder probably made multiple trips or more along the way to end up in that holder. The remove it from the holder opens up a potential 'can of whoop a$$." For profitability the crossing game really only works in one direction, NGC to PCGS. And when it comes to selecting good coins in either holder, CAC seems to be the fairer judge. And not surprisingly, also at the 40% rate. No one wants to be known as the "loosest" grading company. It's technically impossible for everyone to be under 50%....at least if grading standards are somewhat uniform across the hobby spectrum.
Some facts on the subject of who grades tougher (and a reminder....crossing is not grading).
Several of the finest and more recent collections sold at auction were Gene Gardner, Newman, and Pogue. In assessing the CAC sticker ratio, it ranged from 55/45 to 60/40 in favor of PCGS. No great surprise. One outlier was the Dick Osburn collection of 155 seated halves (55% were NGC, 45% were PCGS). The sticker rate for those NGC coins was only 3%. For PCGS is was 38%.....almost a 13X difference. Considering Osburn was a professional dealer and specialized in seated halves, he was picking coins he liked and felt offered value for the purchase price it doesn't seem it was all his problem. Maybe a lot of raw coins he bought were sent to NGC and received grades that were not so conservative. Whatever the reason, PCGS won all 3 of these battles. I never went back to assess Pogue's stickering rate. Might be interesting. If anyone knows of a major US 1793-1933 coin collection that was auctioned off where NGC won the sticker war, please advise. Heritage auctions easily tracks stickers for auctions....so not too hard to tally them up for each session.
Take a look at another thread on the US coin forum asking for collectors here to post their favorite EF coin in their favorite series. Take a look at some of those coins as there are several over multiple series that capture "the look" of a choice EF coin. Take a look at your 1893-cc and compare it to either the 1878-cc or some of the other EF coins in the thread and then ask yourself which coin exemplifies and meets the expectation of an EF grade?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Take a look at another thread on the US coin forum asking for collectors here to post their favorite EF coin in their favorite series. Take a look at some of those coins as there are several over multiple series that capture "the look" of a choice EF coin. Take a look at your 1893-cc and compare it to either the 1878-cc or some of the other EF coins in the thread and then ask yourself which coin exemplifies and meets the expectation of an EF grade?
Yes, understood. As I mentioned, I had concerns whether the 1893 would cross and would not have resent for a second review. However, it speaks to the inconsistency in the grading parameters within the TPG's. Clearly, grading is an art not a science and different "artists" have different interpretations of the same coin. Someone wondered if the grading process wouldn't be better left to machines. Personally, I prefer umpires calling strikes so call me old fashioned but I will accept the inconsistencies as a part of the allure and fascination of this hobby.
@DelawareDoons said:
From a resale perspective, assuming you eventually will sell these, why do you even want them in NGC holders? The market pays more for PCGS unless it's a star or something on a mediocre toner.
I have a lot of respect for PCGS but in my experience, the same grade Morgan in an NGC holder has been as expensive if not more expensive than the PCGS alternative It may be the simple law of supply and demand because the NGC versions are certainly more scarce.
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
I have never seen a dealer that doesn't use any excuse to buy for less when possible, or every excuse to sell for more when possible.
Really? Not a single dealer in a single instance? How many dealers have you dealt with?
My experience has been that some dealers almost always offer low prices and ask high ones, while others are usually very reasonable. Likewise, whether buying or selling, some collectors are very reasonable, yet others are unrealistic.
Leon Hendrickson bought every coin my dad offered to him and my father told me he knew of several times that Leon paid him more than he should have. Dad never bought a coin from Leon but he always went straight to him when it was time to sell one. I think most dealers know not to chase after common coins when they are offered. I'll be that's because when most collectors die their family practically gives their coins away at "scrap prices."
I would like to test your expertise if possible. Here is a 1942 Walking Liberty that was sent in by myself to one of the top 3 grading companies. Can anyone guess what grade I received for it? Honest opinions please, thanks
@cjdilego said:
I would like to test your expertise if possible. Here is a 1942 Walking Liberty that was sent in by myself to one of the top 3 grading companies. Can anyone guess what grade I received for it? Honest opinions please, thanks
The coin looks approximately AU55 to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@JFK_Collector said:
Sent 6 NGC graded coins into PCGS for cross over. Grades and photos posted today, five crossed, one went from an NGC 65 to PCGS 67.
What do people think?
Crossing from 65 to 67 is WAY outside the norm. And PCGS doing that for anything but lower cost coins, or ones with minimal price spread from 66 to 67 is very unlikely. Having submitted dozens of NGC gem 19th century type coins and never once received a single cross to the same grade, a 1 or 2 pt jump is almost unheard of. Ironically, once CAC came around, about half of those NGC coins stickered. But I could see a MS65 coin NGC graded in late 1987 or early 1988 having gone up 2-3 points since. NGC was quite brutal in their first 6 months.
Comments
Excellent decesion to add your PCGS coins to the NGC registry. in time it will not make any difference and it will save you money, and make your selection process easier. I went through a similar process a few years ago when NGC bounced PCGS coins from their registry. I had a registry set that was in progress with both PCGS and NGC coins. I made a decesion to convert the entire set to PCGS. I completed the registry set in PCGS coins, and my coins really look good in the PCGS virtual album, but I proberly will not to do another registry set.
Appreciate the supportive words. I slept well last night knowing my registry consists of graded CC's from the two best TPG's on the planet. My goal is to get to the Top 40 with NGC - still a ways to go:
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/245842/
Tim
I have read . . and reread the thread as I am sure our Mods have and many who have interest.
Overall . . . for the benefit of the hobby, I like to see discussion on the changes, intensity, and time frames of grading. I don't think that is a negative at all (Mods). I personally support the host's site, vision, and plan for long-term hobby health. Yes . . I did several Registry Sets of note (Top 50 Morgan, Top 20 Classic Commem, and Top 10 Type), although I no longer work in that direction . . . and the ATS coins were just not a factor for me at that time. BUT . . . there are MANY superb coins in both of our competing top-tier (complement there) services . . . and the chance for any of us, as numismatists, to discern quality within each service is one of the nuances that makes this hobby so intensely fun !
I appreciate the discussion, professionalism, and knowledge I gain from threads like these . . . .
Drunner
Dealers around me would offer LESS for the NGC (without star/toning) than they would for the PCGS.
Now, whether or not they would try to sell FOR MORE, I don't know. But, I haven't seen a local dealer yet pay more for NGC than PCGS.....(again, when using white/non-star coins (or copper coins) as the example.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I have never seen a dealer that doesn't use any excuse to buy for less when possible, or every excuse to sell for more when possible.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I can only comment on the purchasing side of the equation and only for the past 12 - 18 months in which I've been serious about building my Registry. I've completed purchases on ebay, Heritage, Stacks, GC, DLRC, Liberty, local coin shops and local coin shows. My non-scientific observation has been that NGC holders command as much or more than the exact same grade as PCGS. As I said, this could reflect the greater supply of PCGS coins. Now that NGC accepts PCGS holders in their registry, it will be interesting to see if this reduces demand for NGC coins, especially on the high end examples.
I'm sure incontrovertible evidence exists in the marketplace. I'm only relaying my experience and my opinion.
Really? Not a single dealer in a single instance? How many dealers have you dealt with?
My experience has been that some dealers almost always offer low prices and ask high ones, while others are usually very reasonable. Likewise, whether buying or selling, some collectors are very reasonable, yet others are unrealistic.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
With my Barber Halves. If I have an NGC and a PCGS example of the same date and same grade of equal quality I usually sell the NGC coin for the same price as a PCGS coin less the cost to get the NGC coin crossed to PCGS. Yes, I am biased towards PCGS!
For what it's worth, I checked our prices realized for NGC and PCGS MS66 1885-CC's and 1880-CC's from December of last year to the present. I excluded any that were plus and/or varieties and/or CAC examples. Here are the results.
1885-CC
PCGS $2160 this month
NGC $1260 this month
PCGS $1260 this month
PCGS $1320 this month
PCGS $1380 this month
PCGS $1350 February
PCGS $1260 January
NGC $1080 December
PCGS $1440 December
PCGS $1380 December
PCGS $1080 December
PCGS $1263 December
1880-CC
PCGS $1560 this month
PCGS $1440 this month
PCGS $1140 March
NGC $1500 February
PCGS $1320 February
NGC $1320 February
PCGS $2400 January
PCGS $1140 January
PCGS $1320 December
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld - thanks for sharing this data. Given the fliers for each year ($2160 - 1885-CC & $2400 - 1880-CC), I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions other than to observe the previously noted larger availability of PCGS holders. The ratio appears to be about 80:20.
You're most welcome and I agree that (unfortunately) we cant necessarily draw any new conclusions,
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Nope I cannot recall a single dealer or a single instance at a show where when trying to sell the answer was not along the lines of; the market has shifted, I have many of those, its overgraded, and on and on. Yet when selling I only hear how its a choice gem, undergraded, not another one like on the bourse, and on and on. I will also point out that reasonable is a highly subjective criteria and you might have some trouble getting even two individuals to agree on what is or is not reasonable.
Now I'm not a show going collector, the only show I go to is Long Beach, every other show is too far away and the costs to attend would far outweigh any benefit so I'll admit that while my show selling experiences are biased on limited opportunity I don't feel that it would be any different at FUN or the ANA. And I'm sorry I have no idea how many dealers I've dealt with over the past 30+ years, what I have learned from those experiences is that I'm far better off using an auction venue like GC or even Ebay when selling than to sell to a dealer. Also in my experience some people in general can be very reasonable yet others are unrealistic, that is not limited to dealers and/or collectors.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Would you not agree that auction sales are quite different from retail sales?
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
In many cases, yes. I've seen some coins auctioned for considerably more than was being asked by a retail seller and others sell for quite a bit less.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
While not definitive, one might look to compare the Bluesheet prices for identical PCGS and NGC graded coins.
I have not subscribed to the Bluesheet for over a decade since, in my opinion, it did not cater information toward the areas that I tend to deal or collect in. However, I have historically believed that Bluesheet numbers are representative of the absolute worst piece of negative eye appeal, over-graded, have no business being in that holder pieces that might be found in either a PCGS or NGC holder. As such, it might be viewed as the absolute floor of value for either grading service in a given grade and for a given issue. It isn't perfect, but it is a large canvas of non-cherrypicked data.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Thank you for taking the time to answer and I'm sorry that your experiences were not considerably better.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The moral of this story is registry collecting makes otherwise smart people do questionable things
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Sorry. Sharp eyed dealers who handle a large volume of expensive coins will find any undergraded coins and upgrade or cross them before the typical collector ever sees them. The collector's best bet is to buy a really nice for the grade coin, and sit on it for ten or twenty years, and then, maybe, he (she) will get an upgrade. On about fifteen submissions, I've received four pluses and one major upgrade this way.
I have long since given up trying to get a same grade cross from NGC to PCGS plastic. If I have a nice NGC coin, I try to get it stickered, and that's it. Might add that I don't do registries, and don't care about the holder. I care about the coin.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
That is very good of them!
It’s not “really true that NGC is consistently a point tougher on cc Morgans” and I don’t think anyone has said that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In my experience, NGC is generally 1/2 a point too loose on Morgans and PCGS is right on the dot most of the time.
Dogs exist in both holders.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I have read all the previous posts and just wanted to offer another opinion. I have cracked coins out of holders and sent them in with multiple different results each way. The people grading these coins are not all equal in their knowledge and skills. Coins that were graded as cleaned and re colored came back graded normally and some that were graded normally came back saying they were now re colored or not able to be graded. I have seen a 9 point difference in grading a coin from one company to another because it was a year that had very weak strikes on the coins. Maybe it would be better if machines graded them?
@cjdilego welcome and good post!
Big picture is that on average both TPG's can only cross at most 40-45% of the other guy's coins. To go higher invites the unwanted opinion that they are the loosest grading service. The only way to figure out who is the looser grading company is to submit the same sets of coins to each service multiple times, and average them up. Crossing is merely the appearance of wanting better coins in your holders...and rejecting anything that isn't truly nice for the grade. If both services were willing to cross the same coin....you're likely looking at a CAC-level coin....an A or B coin. Bottom line, you can't come with away with any firm answers on coins that didn't cross. Essentially, half the coins cannot cross, so on average, half of each submission has to be rejected as "did not cross." Those are the rules.
Another subtle point is figure every coin residing in a current holder probably made multiple trips or more along the way to end up in that holder. The remove it from the holder opens up a potential 'can of whoop a$$." For profitability the crossing game really only works in one direction, NGC to PCGS. And when it comes to selecting good coins in either holder, CAC seems to be the fairer judge. And not surprisingly, also at the 40% rate. No one wants to be known as the "loosest" grading company. It's technically impossible for everyone to be under 50%....at least if grading standards are somewhat uniform across the hobby spectrum.
Some facts on the subject of who grades tougher (and a reminder....crossing is not grading).
Several of the finest and more recent collections sold at auction were Gene Gardner, Newman, and Pogue. In assessing the CAC sticker ratio, it ranged from 55/45 to 60/40 in favor of PCGS. No great surprise. One outlier was the Dick Osburn collection of 155 seated halves (55% were NGC, 45% were PCGS). The sticker rate for those NGC coins was only 3%. For PCGS is was 38%.....almost a 13X difference. Considering Osburn was a professional dealer and specialized in seated halves, he was picking coins he liked and felt offered value for the purchase price it doesn't seem it was all his problem. Maybe a lot of raw coins he bought were sent to NGC and received grades that were not so conservative. Whatever the reason, PCGS won all 3 of these battles. I never went back to assess Pogue's stickering rate. Might be interesting. If anyone knows of a major US 1793-1933 coin collection that was auctioned off where NGC won the sticker war, please advise. Heritage auctions easily tracks stickers for auctions....so not too hard to tally them up for each session.
@pointfivezero
Take a look at another thread on the US coin forum asking for collectors here to post their favorite EF coin in their favorite series. Take a look at some of those coins as there are several over multiple series that capture "the look" of a choice EF coin. Take a look at your 1893-cc and compare it to either the 1878-cc or some of the other EF coins in the thread and then ask yourself which coin exemplifies and meets the expectation of an EF grade?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Yes, understood. As I mentioned, I had concerns whether the 1893 would cross and would not have resent for a second review. However, it speaks to the inconsistency in the grading parameters within the TPG's. Clearly, grading is an art not a science and different "artists" have different interpretations of the same coin. Someone wondered if the grading process wouldn't be better left to machines. Personally, I prefer umpires calling strikes so call me old fashioned but I will accept the inconsistencies as a part of the allure and fascination of this hobby.
Sent 6 NGC graded coins into PCGS for cross over. Grades and photos posted today, five crossed, one went from an NGC 65 to PCGS 67.
What do people think?
Leon Hendrickson bought every coin my dad offered to him and my father told me he knew of several times that Leon paid him more than he should have. Dad never bought a coin from Leon but he always went straight to him when it was time to sell one. I think most dealers know not to chase after common coins when they are offered. I'll be that's because when most collectors die their family practically gives their coins away at "scrap prices."
I would like to test your expertise if possible. Here is a 1942 Walking Liberty that was sent in by myself to one of the top 3 grading companies. Can anyone guess what grade I received for it? Honest opinions please, thanks
Here is obverse
The coin looks approximately AU55 to me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Crossing from 65 to 67 is WAY outside the norm. And PCGS doing that for anything but lower cost coins, or ones with minimal price spread from 66 to 67 is very unlikely. Having submitted dozens of NGC gem 19th century type coins and never once received a single cross to the same grade, a 1 or 2 pt jump is almost unheard of. Ironically, once CAC came around, about half of those NGC coins stickered. But I could see a MS65 coin NGC graded in late 1987 or early 1988 having gone up 2-3 points since. NGC was quite brutal in their first 6 months.
Au something. If the hairlines in the right field are directional, may be details
Graded AU-58 from ANACS. @MFeld was the closest with AU-55, thanks
I'm so glad that I collect coins and not holders.
No plastic brand loyalty for me.
I like PCGS and NGC just as long as the coins are good.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/