crack it, have it conserved, or leave it alone? Close-ups added
TPRC
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Feuchtwanger cents used to be a hot topic here, especially when Ambro was active, and I know that several people collect them. I had this piece for sale briefly, but decided to keep it. So I thought I'd give a poll a try. I know feuchtwanger 1 cent pieces quite well, having collected them for around 25 years by variety, and I have a nearly complete set, sans 3-C, which is unique, IMHO, and the so called 6A, which doesn't exist, IMHO.
This piece is a scarce variety known as 3-B of the Feuchtwanger 1 centers that I picked up recently at a very good price. I have reviewed this piece with my microscope and I can attest to its 100% originality. It is a little dark as accurately depicted in the photos, but fully original, with some typical strike weakness common for the type. It is undoubtedly an au-55 and in an older, scuffed up holder.
It has a few spots of pvc or verdigris (if verdigris can appear on German Silver) and I have thought of cracking it out myself or sending it in for reholder and/or conservation, but I thought I should try a poll to see what knowledgeable folks think. The spots are somewhat noticeable on the pics below but include (1) between the first and second feathers on the obverse, (2) above the O in Composition on the reverse and (3) inside the C in Cent on the reverse. There are also two other dark spots, above the head on the obverse and just below the bow on the reverse, but no green can be detected. However, this piece is high grade and quite appealing.
I don't know if the green can be removed. Also, if I crack it, I wonder if a soak in acetone would work. So, look at the piece if you like, then answer the poll. Comments welcomed.
Tom
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Comments
At least ask the conservators if it needs it, sometimes they'll tell you it doesn't.
Trying unsuccessfully to add some larger sized pics.
Tom
I would send it in for guarantee review. They can work with you on options.
I vote conserve the slab (polish it up so you can appreciate the coin) but without question I'd leave the coin alone. Playing with 200 year old copper that already looks pretty darn nice (and that you think is nicely original) has much more potential downside than upside.
It is already market acceptable as a PCGS AU55. Just leave it as is or, if it really bothers you, sell it. Don't start wasting money on "conservation" and reholdering.
I voted to have it conserved, especially if the piece can not be easily replaced.
Donato
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Leave it as is.
What's "wrong" with it? Grade seem about right. Surfaces and eye appeal look fine.
It has pvc or something on it.
Tom
exactly! - no clue what this thread is even about - nice 55 period, like from me.
Both of these comments make a lot of sense to me. I suspect they will tell me that it doesn't need conservation or that it cannot be conserved.
Tom
You cannot see it fully, except perhaps on the obverse between the first and second feathers, but there clearly are green crystal-like pieces in the places I noted. If I knew they were stable, I would agree with you. But I don't know that. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just asking opinions.
Tom
I can't say for certain, but the obverse spot does resemble residue from PVC plasticizer break down. The plasticizer breakdown leaves Hydrochloric acid, so that MUST be removed to preserve the coin and eliminate further damage.
Maybe it's a stable verdigris, in which case no action is needed, but unless I was positive on the verdigris, I wouldn't take the chance if it was my coin
BTW: I can't tell anything about the reverse spots. IMO, it's guilt by association, but can't be sure
Just my opinion
I sent a PCGS AU53, more difficult half dime variety in for conservation because it had what appeared to be a liquid stain on it. It was a nice original golden color but with the stain. I made it clear that I wanted the stain removed. I don't know how conservation works but it came back blazing nuclear white, a highly unnatural look for an AU53. A head's up would have been nice. I'll bet if I cracked it out and sent it in raw they'd details it. I was really disappointed. All I'm saying is make sure your wishes are clearly communicated by phone, not just on a submission sheet.
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That coin is pretty damn nice. Didn't read other responses, but I would leave alone. It could be cracked. Would need to see in hand. Likely an acetone bath could work with the ultrasonic. That is a great piece. Holler if you ever want to sell.
siliconvalleycoins.com
If you are concerned about those scattered, very tiny greenish spots, keep a close eye on them to ensure they don't change any. They may not. They seem pretty normal for a circ coin of that vintage. You can always have a grade review if you want....or get some expert opinions next time you are at a larger coin show. I don't think any of those spots could come off without disturbing the original patina....and then making those areas look somewhat unnatural. An ammonia rinse would likely remove any green or verdigris...along with considerable original patina.
Can Verdigris even appear on german silver? I thought it was only/primarily a product of copper. I think it is quire unusual on 90% silver, but I don't think german silver is silver at all and it does have some copper, so maybe it is verdigris.
Tom
Found this. No silver.
"German silver is composed of three major elements Copper, Zinc and Nickel and sometimes with a trace of Tin and Lead.
These elements varies in percentage with a range of Copper from approximately 50% - 61.6%, Zinc with an approximate range of 17.2& - 19% and Nickel with an approximate range of 21.1% - 30%. Theses compositions are always specified when it comes to commercial alloys."
That coin is virtually perfect for the grade. Epitome of originality. Any attempt to "conserve" a microscopic spot could ruin it. I would leave it alone.
-Paul
OK, that is a lot of copper, which means to me that this can be verdigris. I think it is verdigris.
Tom
It may just be me, but it appears that some work may have already been done on those spots. The surfaces around the spots appear lighter in color than those surrounding. It is possible it was already conserved and this is as good as it gets.
Wow, I must be the only one on this board who has no idea what this is.
It's possible. I have removed similar detritus from old Norse Irish pieces and found remaining surfaces similar to the spot above the O in composition. But I suspect that if something was done, it was not a professional job as too much removable material was left behind. For example, inside the C in Cent, there is clearly a piece of "something" that can be removed. What it will leave behind is anyone's guess.
As I indicated, I'm not at all worried as I bought this inexpensively and unattributed. Also, it is crusty and I like that. As most know, PCGS does not identify varieties, but I cannot find a PCGS sale anywhere for the 3-B. NGC shows 5 in 55 with 8 finer and 22 total, so it is a tougher variety. Auction prices above the XF grade are nearly non-existent. Of course, there are more out there unattributed and improperly attributed (as 3-E mostly), but having looked for a long time, I know this variety to be tough...not as tough as the 3-C, 4-F, 3-D, or 3-G, but tougher than 1-A, 2-A or the common 4-E, and 5 and 6 obverses.
Tom
Not sure if its PVC or Verdigris but if your planning to keep I would suggest sending it to PCGS for review. If it was raw, a soak in acetone would be called for. Wouldn't want it to be dipped in anything else. Has great patina.
This is what I'm going with as well
Didn't know JA would consider beaning them.
I would never own anything I can't pronounce....A little help?
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My Saint Set
If the coin has green crap on it - it needs it.
At three TPGS I've worked at I suggested we conserve customer's coins when needed. It could be as simple as a degreaser.
Bad idea. Too much liability.
The closest I came to this at one company (before grading was an option at any Authentication Service) was having a box on the form to check and sign that allowed the service to remove debris from a coin if necessary to authenticate it. Now, we just call the collector for permission to fix something if it will improve its grade. Another service puts a note in the box suggesting conservation. AFAIK no TPGS will automatically conserve coins before they are graded w/o a customer's permission. That's sad because so many could be improved in just a few minutes. Best example are the incuse Indian coins with black crude in their letters.
Id leave it alone but monitor it for growth of the green stuff
Latin American Collection
Acetone often does not remove hard green corrosion lumps. Now, I will say that I have never soaked a coin for several days in acetone with the hard green lumps because other chemicals work much faster w/o soaking. Bottom line, I'm not interested if it works or not because I don't have the time to wait that long. Acetone will remove the green slime quickly but once the green sets...I don't use it.
Unless my eyes are failing me, I can’t find anything to conserve. I see a pretty Feuchtwanger there.
Leave it alone would be my advice.
It depends on who does the work.
That was my first thought also, but I changed my mind.
Perhaps one of the PCGS conservation experts will post a basic video on how to fix these little problems. PCGS has made some really good grading videos already.
Look at the micrographs. There is crap all over the coin. Green is bad (except on ancients - LOL)
I am quite sure we will never see something like that.
Lance.
Don't be too sure. I did a before and after spot removal once on CU. Recently, a member conserved a $2 1/2 Indian here.
Unfortunately, unless PCGS does the video, you'll only find these demonstrations on U-tube or other coin forums.
In German, it would be pronounced FOYkt-vAHnger.
The 'g' is hard, not soft.
Thanks CJ
Super cool coin and a great history. (I just looked it up)
I've used PCGS's conservation service twice and been very happy with it.
And...You get a regrade, new holder & TrueView for an overall great price. (I got a + both times)
My Saint Set
Yes, it won't remove corrosion but does wonders for PVC. You just have to hope that the surface underneath hasn't been damaged.
I've had great success with verdicare for Verdigris. Not sure if they still produce it though. Could also try a rose thorn if that didnt work.
Part of "having it conserved" is assessing how to conserve it, which may include a conclusion that it's best left alone. As has been said before, it all depends on what the green stuff is, but since there is green stuff that is bad and must be removed to preserve the coin, the responsible thing to do is initiate some sort of conservation process through which the badness of the green stuff is determined before proceeding further.
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That is correct, but in my experience "feuch wang er," with the Fe as in "feud" and the uch as in "Pooch," is a much more common pronunciation. When I use the the correct pronunciation, people often look at me funny. Come to think of it, they do that most of the time anyway.
I will likely at least have the pros look it over to see if it can be conserved. Thank you for your comments.
Tom
Common variety, uncommon quality for the grade.
Tom
The spot above CO is PVC. You need to get it conserved. The rest could be verdigris, but if there's some PVC present, it could also be that instead. If you dont want a professional to do it, you can always remove PVC relatively easily with acetone.
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I believe I would crack it out and give it a good soak in acetone to see if the green stuff (?pvc} comes off. If it doesn't, send in for conservation.
A couple of years ago I almost bought a virginia halfpenny in MS63 RB OGH. With a loupe I could just see a couple of tiny green specks that didn't look too bad. A year later it was still in the dealer's case and the stuff was growing. I don't know if he had it conserved or not; I don't think he wanted to lose the holder.
'fɔʏçt ''vaŋ ɐ
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I'll guess this is a $200 coin. Fair? Costs to have PCGS conserve the coin (assuming they agree to do it):
Shipping/insurance to PCGS - $20?
Restoration economy - $22 + (3% x 200) = $28
Handling - $10
Return S/I - $22
TOTAL $80
That's a chunk of change for a $200 coin. 40% of its value.
Alternatively, OP can crack it out and try some sensible treatment. E.g., start with acetone. Maybe some Verdicare next. Other good ideas have been suggested. Afterwards submit it for grading and cross fingers for a straight grade no worse than 55 (or spring for PCGS to further treat it). More $.
I like the odds of removing the green gunk but I think the areas where work appears to have already been done are going to stand out prominently. And those areas which show dark red/brown are likely corrosion that may become more obvious.
Lastly, treatment is going to strip off all environmental residue, which often results in a dull, dry look.
I hate this gunk as much as anyone. If I couldn't live with it I'd probably just sell the coin.
Lance.
Lance - A normal variety would be a $200 coin, but not a 3-B. I recently sold a much inferior but pleasing NGC XF45 on ebay for $390. There is a nice, but inferior (to me) 3B on ebay now for $850. PCGS does not attribute these, but I can find no sales of the 3B in PCGS holders at either Heritage or Stacks, other than an xf-45 that sold in 2019 for $312. NGC shows 5 in 55 and 8 higher, with 22 total certified, However, I can find no sales of any 3Bs above 45 and none that recent. Those XFs that have sold have sold in the $200-300 range.
Of course there are more out there, in PCGS holders unattributed, raw and unattributed, or in NGC holders mis-attributed, mostly as 3Es. But the vast majority of these are the 5 or 6 obverses.
I think it is a $600-$800 piece in this variety, and condition which is underrated.
By rarity, the varieties go, in my opinion, 3C (unique), 4F, 3D, 3G and 3B, 1A and 2A, and then the more common 4E, and the very common 5 and 6 obverses. No 3Cs or 4Fs have sold to my knowledge. No 3Ds sold for 25 years or so until the Bowers NGC AU-53 specimen (really an XF) for $6900 about 6-7 years ago and then several sold later in the 3-5k range in XF but a real unc recently sold for 14k (to a member here). The point is that the 3B and 3G are underrated and probably undervalued, at least in my mind. So it is worth conserving in my view.
Point taken on the fees and shipping costs, however.
Tom
If you are that concerned about it, I would sell it and look for another one. Once the conservation people get done with it, many collectors won’t want it as a bright white piece.
I know I won’t, but I have zero interest in the die varieties of this token. I only want one for its historical significance.
This is why it's important to know your series. I know little about Feuchtwangers. But I'm familiar with die varieties in other series, and pricing. I trust your knowledge.
So, what to do?
I still think the risks are too great and you should live with it or move on. But another part of me wants to see it conserved and improved. I can't wait to see how it turns out.
Lance.
I would leave it alone at this time.... take very good pictures and monitor the green spots...If they change/grow, then send it in for conservation, specifying what concerns you. Cheers, RickO
Proper conservation will NOT REMOVE the toning, just the green scum.