Help please! 1909-S VDB

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Kliao
Kliao Posts: 5,802 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

A person contacted me with pictures of a off center ‘09s VDB to sell. I’m very suspicious of the coin being genuine. Would like a few others opinions.

Collector
Over 100 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 57 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics

Comments

  • Treashunt
    Treashunt Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2020 4:45PM
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    VERY, VERY DOUBTFUL

    Just my gut reaction.

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • Kliao
    Kliao Posts: 5,802 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Treashunt said:
    VERY, VERY DOUBTFUL

    Just my gut reaction.

    Yes especially with him not being able to provide a clear picture of the reverse.

    Collector
    Over 100 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 57 members and counting!
    instagram.com/klnumismatics

  • lusterlover
    lusterlover Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭✭
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    The S looks too big and is too high up. Fake IMO.

    pcgs.com/SetRegistry/half-cents/lincoln-cents-specialty-sets/lincoln-cents-basic-set-colorless-matte-proof-1909-1916/publishedset/102180
    https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
  • cmerlo1
    cmerlo1 Posts: 8,075 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Not genuine.

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • 291fifth
    291fifth Posts: 25,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    PASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    All glory is fleeting.
  • Kliao
    Kliao Posts: 5,802 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Ok thanks all. :)

    Collector
    Over 100 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 57 members and counting!
    instagram.com/klnumismatics

  • robec
    robec Posts: 7,051 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Abe and the wheat stalks look off also.

    - Bob -

    MPL's - Lincolns of Colorimage
    Central Valley Roosevelts

  • amwldcoin
    amwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yeap...MM is all wrong.

  • jonathanb
    jonathanb Posts: 4,154 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Not doubtful at all. Totally, completely fake, without any doubt.

    On the plus side, it's also completely illegal to counterfeit US coins, so you could sic the US Secret Service on the seller if you had a mind to go down that route.

  • Namvet69
    Namvet69 Posts: 9,423 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    And you should, so the cops can at the least seize that item and get it out of circulation. IMO. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW

  • Jimnight
    Jimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Why isn't this coin graded ... I don't like it.

  • Oldhoopster
    Oldhoopster Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    There are 4 known mm locations for a genuine 1909-SVDB. In addition the location of the periods in VDB as well as the middle bar of the B can be used as diagnostics

    Member of the ANA since 1982
  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Fake.

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • cameonut2011
    cameonut2011 Posts: 10,877 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Mushy detail... Very bad fake.

  • JBK
    JBK Posts: 17,862 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I would never buy an 09SVDB that isn't graded. Period.

    Any seller should know the issue with fakes and realize that it is well worth getting that coin graded. If it is not in a slab there must be a reason.

  • MasonG
    MasonG Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @JBK said:
    If it is not in a slab there must be a reason.

    Not talking about this item in particular, but there are still collectors out there who put their sets together before slabs became popular. So that's one reason why a legitimate 09-S VDB might not be in a slab.

  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @MasonG said:

    @JBK said:
    If it is not in a slab there must be a reason.

    Not talking about this item in particular, but there are still collectors out there who put their sets together before slabs became popular. So that's one reason why a legitimate 09-S VDB might not be in a slab.

    Agree. MOST VDBs I see in collections are raw. I mean 80%. It's not even close.

    That doesn't mean people don't need to be careful with raw but it is a myth that all our even most such coins are slabbed. Same with most other 20th century keys

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • MasonG
    MasonG Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @jmlanzaf said:
    That doesn't mean people don't need to be careful with raw but it is a myth that all our even most such coins are slabbed.

    My 09-S VDB isn't slabbed. In my defense, I'm not sure which grading company I should have been considering in 1972. ;)

  • davewesen
    davewesen Posts: 6,982 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Here is an auction with the same fake die, with better AT
    https://ebay.co.uk/itm/coinage-error-one-cent-1909-S-/114063036146?hash=item1a8eafcef2%3Ag%3AJjAAAOSwhcZeGw0b&nma=true&si=SRTrYp52UkngXEXth0ST5SRrvkk%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    I was intrigued with their fake 55 DDO

  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,752 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @MasonG said:

    @JBK said:
    If it is not in a slab there must be a reason.

    Not talking about this item in particular, but there are still collectors out there who put their sets together before slabs became popular. So that's one reason why a legitimate 09-S VDB might not be in a slab.

    Many of these old sets have fake key date coins. It was not unusual to find a 1909 VDB cent with an S mintmark glued on as far back as at least the 1950's.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • MasonG
    MasonG Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @PerryHall said:
    Many of these old sets have fake key date coins. It was not unusual to find a 1909 VDB cent with an S mintmark glued on as far back as at least the 1950's.

    Sure, that's always possible. Doesn't change the fact that lots of legitimate pieces are still raw.

  • AUandAG
    AUandAG Posts: 25,050 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    These were being sold on Aliexpress or Alibaba (don't remember which one) and it is a fake.

    bob

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @AUandAG said:
    These were being sold on Aliexpress or Alibaba (don't remember which one) and it is a fake.

    bob

    Yes. 55 DDO off centers also.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    This content has been removed.
  • MaineJim
    MaineJim Posts: 841 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Kinda looks like this -

    https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/American-Penny-1909-S-VDB-Out_62423753536.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.0.0.3b8e2adaRJVpLP

  • JBK
    JBK Posts: 17,862 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @MasonG said:

    @PerryHall said:
    Many of these old sets have fake key date coins. It was not unusual to find a 1909 VDB cent with an S mintmark glued on as far back as at least the 1950's.

    Sure, that's always possible. Doesn't change the fact that lots of legitimate pieces are still raw.

    I think my own opinion on this has been misunderstood.

    I am not saying that there are not legitimate pieces that aren't slabbed, but rather that anyone selling such a coin today should get it slabbed for the very reason that there are so many fakes that being slabbed will increase its marketabity.

    The fact that the coin in the original post is a known Chinese forgery sort of proves the point. It's not slabbed because it is fake. Potential buyers beware.

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @davewesen said:
    Here is an auction with the same fake die, with better AT
    https://ebay.co.uk/itm/coinage-error-one-cent-1909-S-/114063036146?hash=item1a8eafcef2%3Ag%3AJjAAAOSwhcZeGw0b&nma=true&si=SRTrYp52UkngXEXth0ST5SRrvkk%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    I was intrigued with their fake 55 DDO

    Now we have fingerprints (on the finger). :D

    I’m sure the three-lettered agencies could do something with it if of enough interest... if...

  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Clearly a fake...there are many venues for these....Just being raw, does not necessarily indicate a fake....as mentioned above, many, many collections in albums, have key coins not slabbed...Due diligence required...Cheers, RickO

  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,752 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The counterfeiters use the same dies to create both non-error key date coins and error key date coins. They're getting quite creative. :#

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    With six you get egg roll.

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • TwoSides2aCoin
    TwoSides2aCoin Posts: 45,217 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    If we say "oooh", it causes a flood of more low-life beings to churn out fodder.

  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Not talking about this item in particular, but there are still collectors out there who put their sets together before slabs became popular. So that's one reason why a legitimate 09-S VDB might not be in a slab.

    And then there are collectors out there who will break a coin such as 1909 SVDB out of its TPG holder so that it can reside in an album with the other coins.

    Carefully done, breakout can be accomplished keeping the holder intact. Dremel works great to accomplish this.

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I would never buy an 09SVDB that isn't graded. Period.

    Good advice. And I say this with myself having the requisite knowledge...

    well, let's just say it would be nearly impossible to get a raw, fake 1909 SVDB by me.

    At the end of the day, the solution for me is to let someone else pay the cost of getting the SVDB slabbed.

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • JimW
    JimW Posts: 617 ✭✭✭✭
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    @mr1874 said:
    Not talking about this item in particular, but there are still collectors out there who put their sets together before slabs became popular. So that's one reason why a legitimate 09-S VDB might not be in a slab.

    And then there are collectors out there who will break a coin such as 1909 SVDB out of its TPG holder so that it can reside in an album with the other coins.

    Carefully done, breakout can be accomplished keeping the holder intact. Dremel works great to accomplish this.

    That is what I did - still have the holder and picture of the coin in the holder, examination will show the raw coin is that same one formerly in holder.

    Successful BST Transactions: erwindoc, VTchaser, moursund, robkool, RelicKING, Herb_T, Meltdown, ElmerFusterpuck, airplanenut

  • TroyW
    TroyW Posts: 42 ✭✭
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    This china fake can be bought for a couple bucks

  • johnny9434
    johnny9434 Posts: 34,068 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    bogus & pass

  • lkeigwin
    lkeigwin Posts: 16,895 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @JBK said:
    I would never buy an 09SVDB that isn't graded. Period.

    Any seller should know the issue with fakes and realize that it is well worth getting that coin graded. If it is not in a slab there must be a reason.

    Totally agree. But I did once...

    It was part of an estate of mostly junk silver and Franklin Mint stuff. There was also a 14-D that was clearly an added mintmark so I was skeptical and paid very little for the supposed S-VDB. It graded AU53. (And yes, I took care of the heir who sold me her dad's coins.)
    Lance.

    Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213

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