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Are NGC Grades really like a Gallon of Milk in the Refrigerator?
Broadstruck
Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
So I got this message from a buyer on eBay
"Hello, The grade on this expires per NGC on 12/14/2019. This means that if I purchased it, it would need to be resubmitted to them as a raw. I don't know if your pictures are current or not, so that is why I asked if you would sell this for less. This again is really expired, as the grade is only good for 10 more days. I hope that this information helps you. You can go to NGC's site to see their policies. Thanks for your consideration"
Anyone have one expire before and does the grading label in the slab just kinda spontaneously combust?
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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They may be talking about color designation on copper? Never heard of a grade going bad
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
You win Thats officially the stupidest thing I’ve heard today lol 😝
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
Posted by an NGC rep elsewhere:
Copper, bronze, brass, and copper-plated coin surfaces have a tendency to change over time. Per the NGC policy, we guarantee the grade and color attribution for 10 years from the encapsulation date. If the coin is approved by the graders for a reholder within the 10 year time frame, the NGC guarantee will be extended an additional 10 years from the most recent encapsulation date. If NGC is not able to reholder the coin, a representative will contact the customer.
If the coin is submitted after the 10 year anniversary, the guarantee will expire and it will treated as a raw (ungraded) submission. The 10 year guarantee would begin from the new encapsulation date.
Happens all the time on modern silver. When those MS70 RP eagles start to milk spot you at least you will still be able to get melt.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
https://youtu.be/k0hKMDMWYwU
PCGS on copper:
“We've also made a change in how we handle the guarantee of color for copper coins. The fact is that color for copper can change depending upon where a coin is stored. The villain is humidity, and if you have mint red copper coins stored in Hawaii or Florida, for example, there's a good chance that the environmental factors can alter the color of the coins. This is obviously beyond our control so consequently we will not be guaranteeing the color of copper coins graded or sold after January 1, 2010.”
https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-grading-guarantee-update
“IMPORTANT: Because the color and surfaces of copper coins can change due to environmental factors, including weather and improper storage, PCGS does not guarantee against changes in the color of copper coins, or against copper spotting subsequent to grading and encapsulation by PCGS.”
https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You should've told him, "The grade doesn't expire but your ability to bid on my auctions just did."
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@MasonG Thanks as I wasn't aware of any grading service still offering a guarantee beyond just being genuine.
Yet I think this was NGC's old warranty which they did away with when all other grading services changed theirs?
Back in the beginning when PCGS had a 20 year warranty and NGC only a 10 year was why PCGS became the top grading service in hobby.
Thanks as I was just reading the same and knew that had done away with the earlier posted warranty.
I replied to your last post but it has somehow disappeared. Perhaps discussing the guarantee of another company is not welcome here? In any event, I will end my participation in this thread with regards to the topic of my previous post.
If I were you I would sell that coin so fast !!!
Nah... I'm shopping for a bomb squad disposal suit on eBay now so I can safely watch what happens in 9 days?
Awesome response!
Is a green or gold thingy like an extended warranty then?
My War Nickels https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/nickels/jefferson-nickels-specialty-sets/jefferson-nickels-fs-basic-war-set-circulation-strikes-1942-1945/publishedset/94452
If the NGC color guarantee on copper is only good for 10 years, shouldn't they put the date of encapsulation or an expiration date on the slab so a buyer will know how long is left on the guarantee? Of course, if a red coin has been in a slab for more than 10 years and it's still red, one can conclude that color is stable. Of course, if you move to a hot humid climate like Hawaii all bets are off.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
No, he needs to contact a hazardous materials disposal team and have it safely carried away.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Oh no....I likely have expired coins in my collection..... What ever shall I do?? Perhaps a burial with a graveside ceremony? Of course, then the metal detectors will be converging on the site as soon as I leave ... Better yet, I will follow the Egyptian example, and keep the mummified remains sacrosanct in my safe/tomb... Until future archaeologists finally discover and release them, to be displayed in museums. Cheers, RickO
Apparently and understandably, this subject is amusing to a number of posters, here. But try putting yourself into the shoes of a collector who's unaware of the changes to the copper guarantees, whose copper coin has turned and he tries to have it re-holdered or have the guarantee honored.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yup. this was a witty yet informative thread.
My first substantial coin purchase was an S-VDB cent on Ebay graded MS64 RB if I recall correctly, by Anacs. It was 2002 or so and before it arrived I read that the grader did not guarantee copper. I quickly returned the coin. As noted above, PCGS adopted a similar policy several years late.
I recall as well the $10,000, sole MS70 Lincoln that turned a few years after encapsulation. I believe that PCGS did a buyback on that.
Have learned to leave copper to those that are expert in the category.
Ive heard of gradeflation but this is the first I read of degradation
I've always liked the 10 year rule of thumb for red copper in slabs. If it's in an OGH or Fatty, I'll probably consider purchasing it and feel good about the stability of it. Newly slabbed red copper, not for me
My YouTube Channel
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It's a bit late for that... Kinda like taking the words "Chocolate" and "Strawberry" off milk and letting folks in the grocery store just guess based on color
IMO, no. The more info the better. Classic case of color designation gone bad: PCI Percent of "White" for dollars.
Here's a PCI "100% White" Silver Eagle past its expiration date!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
An entire collection of RD copper would make me as nervous as a cat at a rocking chair convention. I think I own a handful and they get a frequent careful look...... course, if you see something, it's probably already too late.
Absolutely hilarious!
Dave
I personally like BN examples with a lot of remaining red.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It sounds as if you like RB examples.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
On old copper I prefer glossy chocolate brown. I find it attractive and I've never had any problem with the color not being stable.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I do but without paying the RB price.
So does the grade actually expire or does the color guarantee expire? This is confusing me?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Go to eBay, find a graded copper coin. Enter the cert number on the NGC website, and you'll have your answer.
I prefer my copper like my chocolate, shaken not stirred ( in other words brown)
Ignore his memo / block him. Never got such a Screwball message. Research the issue see if anything even to it. Finish the auction.
Looks like he’s trying stun you with the little know it all flea flicker play talk you into his deal / mess with you.
In past on bourse told them “maybe you should write a book, or get lost don’t care what u think.....”
Why would anyone buy a copper coin that was graded "Red" by any third party service?
Copper is one of the most reactive metals used in minting coins, so let it be reactive.
Hot dang, another tool in the old “beat the price down” toolbox. Rattlers and fatties are expired and raw./
I once had a Rd collection of Lincolns. I was feeling this precise terror about discoloration despite all precautions. That's why I sold the set.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I agree with you 100% Perry. I had to sigh back in just to agree with your superior ultimate expert opinion.
I also have to agree with dpoole.
RD, RB or Brown are part of the grade
If you read the rest of the thread, the buyer was correct.
All your coins raw or slabbed will expire...sorry, they all come with an expiration date.
Yeah, I'm obviously talking about the numerical grade. Does that expire, too? The whole idea is ridiculous
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
If you read the rest of the thread, the buyer was correct.> @DCW said:
I think it kind of makes sense. The number could well change also. Since luster becomes a big part of the equation in the higher uncirculated grades, would a 68 red automatically become a 68 brown if it toned or might it be a 67 brown?
And why should the luster change in a plastic tomb?
The grade (or the opinion of the grade upon encapsulation) should not change over time beyond the subjectivity of grading (which can be debated all day, everyday.)
I'm failing to see the point of an expiration date on slabs beyond generating revenue for resubmissions.
And I agree that we dont need a color designation on copper coins, which would take care of the problem and coins could have shelf lives again.
I've already seen copper that was slabbed without RD, RB, or BN designations and I'm ok with that.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Because oxidation of the surface during the toning process will decrease the luster.
I started a poll to see what others think
The condition (and thus the grade) of copper coins, in particular, can deteriorate over time.
The only copper coins I’ve seen “slabbed without RD, RB, or BN designations” were either details-grade coins or those that graded less than 60.
And the point of an expiration date is to limit the potential liability of grading companies.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This thread is scary to me. I love my Lincolns and they are mostly RD. I'm recently back into coin collecting after a twenty (or so) year break. I have (from the early nineties) PCGS 1912 MS-65RD that is no longer nearly as bright and also a 1914 PCGS MS-64RD that looks exactly the same.
Also this un-slabbed 2C coin I bought back in the day looks even better now than then.
What to do...
It must be a copper coin. The guarantee last ten years from encapsulation and can be renewed by a regrade or a reholder.