Are NGC Grades really like a Gallon of Milk in the Refrigerator?

Broadstruck

So I got this message from a buyer on eBay

"Hello, The grade on this expires per NGC on 12/14/2019. This means that if I purchased it, it would need to be resubmitted to them as a raw. I don't know if your pictures are current or not, so that is why I asked if you would sell this for less. This again is really expired, as the grade is only good for 10 more days. I hope that this information helps you. You can go to NGC's site to see their policies. Thanks for your consideration"

Anyone have one expire before and does the grading label in the slab just kinda spontaneously combust?

DCW

They may be talking about color designation on copper? Never heard of a grade going bad

jabba

You win Thats officially the stupidest thing I’ve heard today lol 😝

MasonG

Posted by an NGC rep elsewhere:

Copper, bronze, brass, and copper-plated coin surfaces have a tendency to change over time. Per the NGC policy, we guarantee the grade and color attribution for 10 years from the encapsulation date. If the coin is approved by the graders for a reholder within the 10 year time frame, the NGC guarantee will be extended an additional 10 years from the most recent encapsulation date. If NGC is not able to reholder the coin, a representative will contact the customer.

If the coin is submitted after the 10 year anniversary, the guarantee will expire and it will treated as a raw (ungraded) submission. The 10 year guarantee would begin from the new encapsulation date.

blitzdude

@DCW said:
They may be talking about color designation on copper? Never heard of a grade going bad

Happens all the time on modern silver. When those MS70 RP eagles start to milk spot you at least you will still be able to get melt.

ctf_error_coins

https://youtu.be/k0hKMDMWYwU

MFeld

PCGS on copper:

“We've also made a change in how we handle the guarantee of color for copper coins. The fact is that color for copper can change depending upon where a coin is stored. The villain is humidity, and if you have mint red copper coins stored in Hawaii or Florida, for example, there's a good chance that the environmental factors can alter the color of the coins. This is obviously beyond our control so consequently we will not be guaranteeing the color of copper coins graded or sold after January 1, 2010.”

https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-grading-guarantee-update

“IMPORTANT: Because the color and surfaces of copper coins can change due to environmental factors, including weather and improper storage, PCGS does not guarantee against changes in the color of copper coins, or against copper spotting subsequent to grading and encapsulation by PCGS.”

https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee

ms70

You should've told him, "The grade doesn't expire but your ability to bid on my auctions just did."

Broadstruck

@MasonG said:
Posted by an NGC rep elsewhere:

Copper, bronze, brass, and copper-plated coin surfaces have a tendency to change over time. Per the NGC policy, we guarantee the grade and color attribution for 10 years from the encapsulation date. If the coin is approved by the graders for a reholder within the 10 year time frame, the NGC guarantee will be extended an additional 10 years from the most recent encapsulation date. If NGC is not able to reholder the coin, a representative will contact the customer.

If the coin is submitted after the 10 year anniversary, the guarantee will expire and it will treated as a raw (ungraded) submission. The 10 year guarantee would begin from the new encapsulation date.

@MasonG Thanks as I wasn't aware of any grading service still offering a guarantee beyond just being genuine.

Yet I think this was NGC's old warranty which they did away with when all other grading services changed theirs?

Back in the beginning when PCGS had a 20 year warranty and NGC only a 10 year was why PCGS became the top grading service in hobby.

Broadstruck

@MasonG said:

@Broadstruck said:
Yet I think this was NGC's old warranty which they did away with when all other grading services changed theirs?

Looking at their current guarantee, there is this (only portions of the entire guarantee webpage are copied below):

This Guarantee does not apply to certain Coins where the appearance of the Coin changes or deteriorates over time and such change or deterioration is responsible for any discrepancy between the assigned grade and the Coin’s actual grade. Guarantor shall make the sole reasonable determination as to whether this deterioration has occurred. The following specific parameters apply:

Coins made of copper, bronze and brass or are copper-plated can change over time. Accordingly, with regard to copper, bronze, brass or copper-plated Coins, the grade portion of this Guarantee will no longer apply after the 10-year anniversary of their date of encapsulation. The expiration date of the grade portion of this Guarantee can be found by entering the Coin’s certification number in the Verify NGC Certification section of the NGC website or by contacting NGC Customer Service.

Thanks as I was just reading the same and knew that had done away with the earlier posted warranty.

MasonG

@Broadstruck said:

@MasonG Thanks as I wasn't aware of any grading service still offering a guarantee beyond just being genuine.

I replied to your last post but it has somehow disappeared. Perhaps discussing the guarantee of another company is not welcome here? In any event, I will end my participation in this thread with regards to the topic of my previous post.

thebeav

If I were you I would sell that coin so fast !!!

Broadstruck

@thebeav said:
If I were you I would sell that coin so fast !!!

Nah... I'm shopping for a bomb squad disposal suit on eBay now so I can safely watch what happens in 9 days?

mannie gray

@ms70 said:
You should've told him, "The grade doesn't expire but your ability to bid on my auctions just did."

Awesome response!

toyz4geo

Is a green or gold thingy like an extended warranty then?

PerryHall

If the NGC color guarantee on copper is only good for 10 years, shouldn't they put the date of encapsulation or an expiration date on the slab so a buyer will know how long is left on the guarantee? Of course, if a red coin has been in a slab for more than 10 years and it's still red, one can conclude that color is stable. Of course, if you move to a hot humid climate like Hawaii all bets are off.

Texast

@thebeav said:
If I were you I would sell that coin so fast !!!

No, he needs to contact a hazardous materials disposal team and have it safely carried away.

ricko

Oh no....I likely have expired coins in my collection..... What ever shall I do?? Perhaps a burial with a graveside ceremony? Of course, then the metal detectors will be converging on the site as soon as I leave ... Better yet, I will follow the Egyptian example, and keep the mummified remains sacrosanct in my safe/tomb... Until future archaeologists finally discover and release them, to be displayed in museums. Cheers, RickO

MFeld

Apparently and understandably, this subject is amusing to a number of posters, here. But try putting yourself into the shoes of a collector who's unaware of the changes to the copper guarantees, whose copper coin has turned and he tries to have it re-holdered or have the guarantee honored.

Coinstartled

@MFeld said:
Apparently and understandably, this subject is amusing to a number of posters, here. But try putting yourself into the shoes of a collector who's unaware of the changes to the copper guarantees, whose copper coin has turned and he tries to have it re-holdered or have the guarantee honored.

Yup. this was a witty yet informative thread.

My first substantial coin purchase was an S-VDB cent on Ebay graded MS64 RB if I recall correctly, by Anacs. It was 2002 or so and before it arrived I read that the grader did not guarantee copper. I quickly returned the coin. As noted above, PCGS adopted a similar policy several years late.

I recall as well the $10,000, sole MS70 Lincoln that turned a few years after encapsulation. I believe that PCGS did a buyback on that.

Have learned to leave copper to those that are expert in the category.

TwoSides2aCoin

Ive heard of gradeflation but this is the first I read of degradation

asheland

I've always liked the 10 year rule of thumb for red copper in slabs. If it's in an OGH or Fatty, I'll probably consider purchasing it and feel good about the stability of it. Newly slabbed red copper, not for me

MrEureka

Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.

Broadstruck

@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.

It's a bit late for that... Kinda like taking the words "Chocolate" and "Strawberry" off milk and letting folks in the grocery store just guess based on color

Insider2

@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.

IMO, no. The more info the better. Classic case of color designation gone bad: PCI Percent of "White" for dollars.

astrorat

Here's a PCI "100% White" Silver Eagle past its expiration date!

BryceM

An entire collection of RD copper would make me as nervous as a cat at a rocking chair convention. I think I own a handful and they get a frequent careful look...... course, if you see something, it's probably already too late.

Dave99B

Absolutely hilarious!

Dave

Broadstruck

@BryceM said:
An entire collection of RD copper would make me as nervous as a cat at a rocking chair convention. I think I own a handful and they get a frequent careful look...... course, if you see something, it's probably already too late.

I personally like BN examples with a lot of remaining red.

MrEureka

@Insider2 said:

@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.

IMO, no. The more info the better.

Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.

MFeld

@Broadstruck said:

@BryceM said:
An entire collection of RD copper would make me as nervous as a cat at a rocking chair convention. I think I own a handful and they get a frequent careful look...... course, if you see something, it's probably already too late.

I personally like BN examples with a lot of remaining red.

It sounds as if you like RB examples.

PerryHall

On old copper I prefer glossy chocolate brown. I find it attractive and I've never had any problem with the color not being stable.

Broadstruck

@MFeld said:

@Broadstruck said:

@BryceM said:
An entire collection of RD copper would make me as nervous as a cat at a rocking chair convention. I think I own a handful and they get a frequent careful look...... course, if you see something, it's probably already too late.

I personally like BN examples with a lot of remaining red.

It sounds as if you like RB examples.

I do but without paying the RB price.

DCW

So does the grade actually expire or does the color guarantee expire? This is confusing me?

MasonG

@DCW said:
So does the grade actually expire or does the color guarantee expire? This is confusing me?

Go to eBay, find a graded copper coin. Enter the cert number on the NGC website, and you'll have your answer.

Raybo

I prefer my copper like my chocolate, shaken not stirred ( in other words brown)

Cougar1978

Ignore his memo / block him. Never got such a Screwball message. Research the issue see if anything even to it. Finish the auction.

Looks like he’s trying stun you with the little know it all flea flicker play talk you into his deal / mess with you.

In past on bourse told them “maybe you should write a book, or get lost don’t care what u think.....”

Raybo

Why would anyone buy a copper coin that was graded "Red" by any third party service?
Copper is one of the most reactive metals used in minting coins, so let it be reactive.

Smudge

Hot dang, another tool in the old “beat the price down” toolbox. Rattlers and fatties are expired and raw./

dpoole

I once had a Rd collection of Lincolns. I was feeling this precise terror about discoloration despite all precautions. That's why I sold the set.

Raybo

@PerryHall said:
On old copper I prefer glossy chocolate brown. I find it attractive and I've never had any problem with the color not being stable.

I agree with you 100% Perry. I had to sigh back in just to agree with your superior ultimate expert opinion.
I also have to agree with dpoole.

jmlanzaf

@DCW said:
So does the grade actually expire or does the color guarantee expire? This is confusing me?

RD, RB or Brown are part of the grade

jmlanzaf

@Cougar1978 said:
Ignore his memo / block him. Never got such a Screwball message. Research the issue see if anything even to it. Finish the auction.

Looks like he’s trying stun you with the little know it all flea flicker play talk you into his deal / mess with you.

In past on bourse told them “maybe you should write a book, or get lost don’t care what u think.....”

If you read the rest of the thread, the buyer was correct.

Onastone

All your coins raw or slabbed will expire...sorry, they all come with an expiration date.

DCW

@jmlanzaf said:

@DCW said:
So does the grade actually expire or does the color guarantee expire? This is confusing me?

RD, RB or Brown are part of the grade

Yeah, I'm obviously talking about the numerical grade. Does that expire, too? The whole idea is ridiculous

jmlanzaf

In past on bourse told them “maybe you should write a book, or get lost don’t care what u think.....”

If you read the rest of the thread, the buyer was correct.> @DCW said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@DCW said:
So does the grade actually expire or does the color guarantee expire? This is confusing me?

RD, RB or Brown are part of the grade

Yeah, I'm obviously talking about the numerical grade. Does that expire, too? The whole idea is ridiculous

I think it kind of makes sense. The number could well change also. Since luster becomes a big part of the equation in the higher uncirculated grades, would a 68 red automatically become a 68 brown if it toned or might it be a 67 brown?

DCW

And why should the luster change in a plastic tomb?

The grade (or the opinion of the grade upon encapsulation) should not change over time beyond the subjectivity of grading (which can be debated all day, everyday.)
I'm failing to see the point of an expiration date on slabs beyond generating revenue for resubmissions.
And I agree that we dont need a color designation on copper coins, which would take care of the problem and coins could have shelf lives again.
I've already seen copper that was slabbed without RD, RB, or BN designations and I'm ok with that.

jmlanzaf

@DCW said:
And why should the luster change in a plastic tomb?

The grade (or the opinion of the grade upon encapsulation) should not change over time beyond the subjectivity of grading (which can be debated all day, everyday.)
I'm failing to see the point of an expiration date on slabs beyond generating revenue for resubmissions.
And I agree that we dont need a color designation on copper coins, which would take care of the problem and coins could have shelf lives again.
I've already seen copper that was slabbed without RD, RB, or BN designations and I'm ok with that.

Because oxidation of the surface during the toning process will decrease the luster.

I started a poll to see what others think

MFeld

@DCW said:
And why should the luster change in a plastic tomb?

The grade (or the opinion of the grade upon encapsulation) should not change over time beyond the subjectivity of grading (which can be debated all day, everyday.)
I'm failing to see the point of an expiration date on slabs beyond generating revenue for resubmissions.
And I agree that we dont need a color designation on copper coins, which would take care of the problem and coins could have shelf lives again.
I've already seen copper that was slabbed without RD, RB, or BN designations and I'm ok with that.

The condition (and thus the grade) of copper coins, in particular, can deteriorate over time.

The only copper coins I’ve seen “slabbed without RD, RB, or BN designations” were either details-grade coins or those that graded less than 60.

And the point of an expiration date is to limit the potential liability of grading companies.

AstroDan

This thread is scary to me. I love my Lincolns and they are mostly RD. I'm recently back into coin collecting after a twenty (or so) year break. I have (from the early nineties) PCGS 1912 MS-65RD that is no longer nearly as bright and also a 1914 PCGS MS-64RD that looks exactly the same.
Also this un-slabbed 2C coin I bought back in the day looks even better now than then.
What to do...

cameonut2011

@Broadstruck said:
So I got this message from a buyer on eBay

"Hello, The grade on this expires per NGC on 12/14/2019. This means that if I purchased it, it would need to be resubmitted to them as a raw. I don't know if your pictures are current or not, so that is why I asked if you would sell this for less. This again is really expired, as the grade is only good for 10 more days. I hope that this information helps you. You can go to NGC's site to see their policies. Thanks for your consideration"

Anyone have one expire before and does the grading label in the slab just kinda spontaneously combust?

It must be a copper coin. The guarantee last ten years from encapsulation and can be renewed by a regrade or a reholder.