@Smudge said:
Hot dang, another tool in the old “beat the price down” toolbox. Rattlers and fatties are expired and raw./
NGC never guaranteed copper or copper-nickel coins in the old fatties. The guarantee was expanded in April 2003 to provide more coverage similar to the PCGS guarantee. To limit liability, the company created a 10 year expiration period for its warranty when the guarantee was expanded to cover copper.
@Smudge said:
Hot dang, another tool in the old “beat the price down” toolbox. Rattlers and fatties are expired and raw./
NGC never guaranteed copper or nickel coins in the old fatties. The guarantee was expanded in April 2003 to provide more coverage similar to the PCGS guarantee. To limit liability, the company created a 10 year expiration period for its warranty when the guarantee was expanded to cover copper.
Did you perhaps, mean “copper-nickel” where you wrote “nickel”? I am unaware of any exclusions from coverage for nickel coinage.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Smudge said:
Hot dang, another tool in the old “beat the price down” toolbox. Rattlers and fatties are expired and raw./
NGC never guaranteed copper or nickel coins in the old fatties. The guarantee was expanded in April 2003 to provide more coverage similar to the PCGS guarantee. To limit liability, the company created a 10 year expiration period for its warranty when the guarantee was expanded to cover copper.
Did you perhaps, mean “copper-nickel” where you wrote “nickel”? I am unaware of any exclusions from coverage for nickel coinage.
I meant copper-nickel. I will go back and edit my post.
Did it sticker? If so tell him that while NGC is good for 10 years but JA, like a diamond, lasts forever.
This is a $400 item. I've only ever made arrangements for something to go via CAC if it's nearing 5 figures or more and not having a sticker is a deal breaker. That's only if the buyer has a CAC account as I'm not even set up to submit.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
"As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it."
Did it sticker? If so tell him that while NGC is good for 10 years but JA, like a diamond, lasts forever.
This is a $400 item. I've only ever made arrangements for something to go via CAC if it's nearing 5 figures or more and not having a sticker is a deal breaker. That's only if the buyer has a CAC account as I'm not even set up to submit.
5 figures is laughable to me because I can't imagine paying that much for a coin ....what is that? XX,XXX?
$10,000 at the least?
I'm envious Broadstruck.
Did it sticker? If so tell him that while NGC is good for 10 years but JA, like a diamond, lasts forever.
This is a $400 item. I've only ever made arrangements for something to go via CAC if it's nearing 5 figures or more and not having a sticker is a deal breaker. That's only if the buyer has a CAC account as I'm not even set up to submit.
5 figures is laughable to me because I can't imagine paying that much for a coin ....what is that? XX,XXX?
$10,000 at the least?
I'm envious Broadstruck.
Would you believe there are 6 figure and 7 figure coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
"As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it."
Please elaborate Insider.
Thanks as always,
Ray
What is there to say. Sheldon associated the color of copper with VALUE. Since a copper coin started out 'red," that was the most desirable indication of its degree of originality. So once a coin had no wear, its color had the most effect on its MS grade.
Think about it. When a 2019 cent is struck. virtually the only difference between each coin in the bag will be any mint caused imperfections from the planchet, the dies, or anything that gets between them, and the amount of design detail on the coin due to its strike and the condition of the dies. Their color will be uniform.
The same goes for early copper coins when they were first struck. That's why color was important to collectors. The coins did not start with PMD or the amount of impact damage we see on our larger coins.
The EAC has published a very good reference on grading copper.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
Yeah back when Teletrade's auction catalog looked like phone book listings and you had to rotary dial in the 4 digit code for the lot wanted to bid on a color designation came in handy. For anyone else who just read this and now also feels older than dirt... You're Welcome!
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
The truth is they can say the same to all these ms70 grades of all these milk spotted silver coins. After milk spot it's only worth silver weight with some exceptions to low mintages etc.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
Since we moved on past the "sight-unseen era" as you phrase it (and I agree), do we really need all of the grades and grade enhancements that we have today? Why not go back to the way things were pre sight-unseen trading and leave the TPGs for authenticity, finding problems like tooling or cleaning, and assigning a rudimentary grade as a starting point (and that could be used to calculate any liability under the guarantee).
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
Since we moved on past the "sight-unseen era" as you phrase it (and I agree), do we really need all of the grades and grade enhancements that we have today? Why not go back to the way things were pre sight-unseen trading and leave the TPGs for authenticity, finding problems like tooling or cleaning, and assigning a rudimentary grade as a starting point (and that could be used to calculate any liability under the guarantee).
Most people don't know how to grade, and nobody can grade well based on online images.
On the other hand, everyone can see colors.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
Since we moved on past the "sight-unseen era" as you phrase it (and I agree), do we really need all of the grades and grade enhancements that we have today? Why not go back to the way things were pre sight-unseen trading and leave the TPGs for authenticity, finding problems like tooling or cleaning, and assigning a rudimentary grade as a starting point (and that could be used to calculate any liability under the guarantee).
Most people don't know how to grade, and nobody can grade well based on online images.
On the other hand, everyone can see colors.
That's disturbing. If most cannot grade and are relying on someone else's subjective opinion without the ability or willingness to think and learn for themselves then that doesn't bode very well for the future of our hobby.
@Silverman2020 said:
The truth is they can say the same to all these ms70 grades of all these milk spotted silver coins. After milk spot it's only worth silver weight with some exceptions to low mintages etc.
I will buy almost any PCGS MS70 silver eagle anyone wants to get rid of from 1988-2000 for 10 times melt, even if there is a milk spot.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
Since we moved on past the "sight-unseen era" as you phrase it (and I agree), do we really need all of the grades and grade enhancements that we have today? Why not go back to the way things were pre sight-unseen trading and leave the TPGs for authenticity, finding problems like tooling or cleaning, and assigning a rudimentary grade as a starting point (and that could be used to calculate any liability under the guarantee).
Most people don't know how to grade, and nobody can grade well based on online images.
On the other hand, everyone can see colors.
That's disturbing. If most cannot grade and are relying on someone else's subjective opinion without the ability or willingness to think and learn for themselves then that doesn't bode very well for the future of our hobby.
There was never a time in the history of our hobby when anything close to the majority of collectors were able to expertly grade coins.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
Since we moved on past the "sight-unseen era" as you phrase it (and I agree), do we really need all of the grades and grade enhancements that we have today? Why not go back to the way things were pre sight-unseen trading and leave the TPGs for authenticity, finding problems like tooling or cleaning, and assigning a rudimentary grade as a starting point (and that could be used to calculate any liability under the guarantee).
Most people don't know how to grade, and nobody can grade well based on online images.
On the other hand, everyone can see colors.
That's disturbing. If most cannot grade and are relying on someone else's subjective opinion without the ability or willingness to think and learn for themselves then that doesn't bode very well for the future of our hobby.
There was never a time in the history of our hobby when anything close to the majority of collectors were able to expertly grade coins.
Some in the hobby thinks cac are experts. Personally I don't think the cac can grade themselves out of a wet paper bag. The fraud can't go poof soon enough but mark my words it will.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
I'll need to check into that. As you know, coins were being graded by TPGS's before PCGS was a twinkle in Mr. Hall's eye. "Essential" may be the word that makes you correct.
“Some in the hobby thinks cac are experts. Personally I don't think the cac can grade themselves out of a wet paper bag. The fraud can't go poof soon enough but mark my words it will.”
See forum rule 4.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
Since we moved on past the "sight-unseen era" as you phrase it (and I agree), do we really need all of the grades and grade enhancements that we have today? Why not go back to the way things were pre sight-unseen trading and leave the TPGs for authenticity, finding problems like tooling or cleaning, and assigning a rudimentary grade as a starting point (and that could be used to calculate any liability under the guarantee).
Most people don't know how to grade, and nobody can grade well based on online images.
On the other hand, everyone can see colors.
That's disturbing. If most cannot grade and are relying on someone else's subjective opinion without the ability or willingness to think and learn for themselves then that doesn't bode very well for the future of our hobby.
There was never a time in the history of our hobby when anything close to the majority of collectors were able to expertly grade coins.
Some in the hobby thinks cac are experts. Personally I don't think the cac can grade themselves out of a wet paper bag. The fraud can't go poof soon enough but mark my words it will.
Are you crazy? With an opinion like yours, I'm beginning to wonder.
CAC probably has some of the best graders in the country. At least I read that JA is unquestionably one of them. FURTHERMORE, IMHO, they have the easiest job in the world. All they need to do is look at a coin already graded by some of the top graders in the country and decide if the coin is graded correctly as an (A/B). Perhaps it is your head that's in a bag.
Some in the hobby thinks cac are experts. Personally I don't think the cac can grade themselves out of a wet paper bag. The fraud can't go poof soon enough but mark my words it will.
See forum rule 4.
I didn't bash anything it is what it is and I'd hardly call the cac a "grading" company.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Some in the hobby thinks cac are experts. Personally I don't think the cac can grade themselves out of a wet paper bag. The fraud can't go poof soon enough but mark my words it will.
See forum rule 4.
I didn't bash anything it is what it is and I'd hardly call the cac a "grading" company.
Among others, you should probably look up the definitions for “bash” and “fraud”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
Since we moved on past the "sight-unseen era" as you phrase it (and I agree), do we really need all of the grades and grade enhancements that we have today? Why not go back to the way things were pre sight-unseen trading and leave the TPGs for authenticity, finding problems like tooling or cleaning, and assigning a rudimentary grade as a starting point (and that could be used to calculate any liability under the guarantee).
Most people don't know how to grade, and nobody can grade well based on online images.
On the other hand, everyone can see colors.
That's disturbing. If most cannot grade and are relying on someone else's subjective opinion without the ability or willingness to think and learn for themselves then that doesn't bode very well for the future of our hobby.
There was never a time in the history of our hobby when anything close to the majority of collectors were able to expertly grade coins.
Some in the hobby thinks cac are experts. Personally I don't think the cac can grade themselves out of a wet paper bag. The fraud can't go poof soon enough but mark my words it will.
Are you crazy? With an opinion like yours, I'm beginning to wonder.
CAC probably has some of the best graders in the country. At least I read that JA is unquestionably one of them. FURTHERMORE, IMHO, they have the easiest job in the world. All they need to do is look at a coin already graded by some of the top graders in the country and decide if the coin is graded correctly as an (A/B). Perhaps it is your head that's in a bag.
Exactly the don't grade anything. If they want to be graders man up and go start encapsulating some coins in plastic. This sticker BS is ruining this once great hobby.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
nything close to the majority of collectors were able to expertly grade coins.
Some in the hobby thinks cac are experts. Personally I don't think the cac can grade themselves out of a wet paper bag. The fraud can't go poof soon enough but mark my words it will.
smh...sometimes there are no words.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
e easiest job in the world.** All they need to do is look at a coin already graded by some of the top graders in the country and decide if the coin is graded correctly as an (A/B). Perhaps it is your head that's in a bag.
Exactly the don't grade anything. If they want to be graders man up and go start encapsulating some coins in plastic. This sticker BS is ruining this once great hobby.
While this is really not worth a response, I feel compelled: whether you want to consider them graders or not - you called them graders, by the way - they do need to be able to grade in order to pass judgment on the coins. In fact, they are left with the HARDEST determination. Most of us can probably tell the difference, for example, between an XF45 and an AU50. For a coin in an XF45 holder, they have to decide whether it is actually an AU50 or XF-45A.B or an XF-45C. That is a much finer distinction.
And you can feel however you want about CAC stickers, but to suggest that John Albanese doesn't know anything about grading...smh....I'm back to speechless.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
e easiest job in the world.** All they need to do is look at a coin already graded by some of the top graders in the country and decide if the coin is graded correctly as an (A/B). Perhaps it is your head that's in a bag.
Exactly the don't grade anything. If they want to be graders man up and go start encapsulating some coins in plastic. This sticker BS is ruining this once great hobby.
While this is really not worth a response, I feel compelled: whether you want to consider them graders or not - you called them graders, by the way - they do need to be able to grade in order to pass judgment on the coins. In fact, they are left with the HARDEST determination. Most of us can probably tell the difference, for example, between an XF45 and an AU50. For a coin in an XF45 holder, they have to decide whether it is actually an AU50 or XF-45A.B or an XF-45C. That is a much finer distinction.
And you can feel however you want about CAC stickers, but to suggest that John Albanese doesn't know anything about grading...smh....I'm back to speechless.
A PCGS XF45 is a XF45 period. There is no A B or C. Simply a scam for more $$$$. A few around here feel the constant need to kiss the cac backside, perhaps due to financial interests, who knows. I'm certainly not one of them, go moan to the mods to bring down the ban hammer, I could care less, I trust PCGS's opinion which is why I am here and not over blowing kisses over at the cac board. Semper Fi!!!!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Some in the hobby thinks cac are experts. Personally I don't think the cac can grade themselves out of a wet paper bag. The fraud can't go poof soon enough but mark my words it will.
See forum rule 4.
You might want to fix the quotes in your post. The way it reads, the other poster's comments are not listed as quotes but as text of your response making it appear that you're making that statement. I don't think it is representative of your views.
A PCGS XF45 is a XF45 period. There is no A B or C. Simply a scam for more $$$$. A few around here feel the constant need to kiss the cac backside, perhaps due to financial interests, who knows. I'm certainly not one of them, go moan to the mods to bring down the ban hammer, I could care less, I trust PCGS's opinion which is why I am here and not over blowing kisses over at the cac board. Semper Fi!!!!
Apparently you don't trust PCGS's opinion because they think a partnership with CAC is a good idea.
Like I said, feel what you like about CAC, but saying that John Albanese isn't an expert grader is ridiculous.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@blitzdude said:
A PCGS XF45 is a XF45 period. There is no A B or C. Simply a scam for more $$$$. A few around here feel the constant need to kiss the cac backside, perhaps due to financial interests, who knows. I'm certainly not one of them, go moan to the mods to bring down the ban hammer, I could care less, I trust PCGS's opinion which is why I am here and not over blowing kisses over at the cac board. Semper Fi!!!!
So CAC should be excellent for you. You can purchase non-CAC approved coins at depressed values. In fact, there are lots of good opportunities for you, such as coins that turned in the holder.
Ya think? I have a customer that is color blind and curses all the time because he can't determine the color of a toned coin. It actually happened yesterday at the little 1 day show I attend!
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
Perhaps placing the color designation on a slab would provide "more info" to a colorblind collector. But to anyone else, there's more information about the color on the coin itself than on the label.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
Since we moved on past the "sight-unseen era" as you phrase it (and I agree), do we really need all of the grades and grade enhancements that we have today? Why not go back to the way things were pre sight-unseen trading and leave the TPGs for authenticity, finding problems like tooling or cleaning, and assigning a rudimentary grade as a starting point (and that could be used to calculate any liability under the guarantee).
Most people don't know how to grade, and nobody can grade well based on online images.
Hmmmmm….I've seen enough CAC coins to say this! Some of his A coins are my C coins and some of his C coins are my A coins. Like I have said before, if your taste is the same as CAC then all is good! After all the stickers are applied based on 1 person's preference in coins.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
e easiest job in the world.** All they need to do is look at a coin already graded by some of the top graders in the country and decide if the coin is graded correctly as an (A/B). Perhaps it is your head that's in a bag.
Exactly the don't grade anything. If they want to be graders man up and go start encapsulating some coins in plastic. This sticker BS is ruining this once great hobby.
While this is really not worth a response, I feel compelled: whether you want to consider them graders or not - you called them graders, by the way - they do need to be able to grade in order to pass judgment on the coins. In fact, they are left with the HARDEST determination. Most of us can probably tell the difference, for example, between an XF45 and an AU50. For a coin in an XF45 holder, they have to decide whether it is actually an AU50 or XF-45A.B or an XF-45C. That is a much finer distinction.
And you can feel however you want about CAC stickers, but to suggest that John Albanese doesn't know anything about grading...smh....I'm back to speechless.
@amwldcoin said:
Hmmmmm….I've seen enough CAC coins to say this! Some of his A coins are my C coins and some of his C coins are my A coins. Like I have said before, if your taste is the same as CAC then all is good! After all the stickers are applied based on 1 person's preference in coins.
@MrEureka said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply stop using color designations? Granted, some of the Registry players might not like that. But for a reality check, consider that the lack of color designations on silver commems and silver dollars hasn't hurt the market for the most beautifully toned pieces. In fact, just the opposite.
IMO, no. The more info the better.
e easiest job in the world.** All they need to do is look at a coin already graded by some of the top graders in the country and decide if the coin is graded correctly as an (A/B). Perhaps it is your head that's in a bag.
Exactly the don't grade anything. If they want to be graders man up and go start encapsulating some coins in plastic. This sticker BS is ruining this once great hobby.
While this is really not worth a response, I feel compelled: whether you want to consider them graders or not - you called them graders, by the way - they do need to be able to grade in order to pass judgment on the coins. In fact, they are left with the HARDEST determination. Most of us can probably tell the difference, for example, between an XF45 and an AU50. For a coin in an XF45 holder, they have to decide whether it is actually an AU50 or XF-45A.B or an XF-45C. That is a much finer distinction.
And you can feel however you want about CAC stickers, but to suggest that John Albanese doesn't know anything about grading...smh....I'm back to speechless.
And I see all kinds of PCGS VF's that I consider F15. That's part of the reason for the SECOND opinion.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I've even had NGC say that the guarantee on certified gold coins with minor issues like a residue may kill the grade guarantee, even a coin that was properly stored with a healthy not impaired holder. So if they want to they can try to wriggle out of previous guarantees if the coin was certified long enough ago, they can.
I have heard a number of people try to throw fear into owners of coins, like one dealer who would say that the coin could turn in the holder at any time now, so sell to him at fire sale prices.
Some in the hobby thinks cac are experts. Personally I don't think the cac can grade themselves out of a wet paper bag. The fraud can't go poof soon enough but mark my words it will.
Are you crazy? With an opinion like yours, I'm beginning to wonder.
CAC probably has some of the best graders in the country. At least I read that JA is unquestionably one of them. FURTHERMORE, IMHO, they have the easiest job in the world. All they need to do is look at a coin already graded by some of the top graders in the country and decide if the coin is graded correctly as an (A/B). Perhaps it is your head that's in a bag.
Exactly they don't grade anything. If they want to be graders man up and go start encapsulating some coins in >plastic. This sticker BS is ruining this once great hobby.
Please, please give it up and get informed. I think it is best for CAC to answer you but AFAIK, CAC DOES NOT claim to be a coin grading service. IMO, as stated above, they confirm that they agree with an assigned grade by folks who DO CLAIM to be a coin grading service. I'll bet many members of this forum could do the same thing!
The ONLY gripe I have about CAC is for certain reasons not to be discussed here they only sticker PCGS and NGC coins. There are very good reasons for this business decision and it is NOT what 95% of folks reading this post may think. Wink, wink,
Do you collect mostly foreign coins? Anyway as you wrote:
Hmmmmm….I've seen enough CAC coins to say this! Some of his A coins are my C coins and some of his C coins are my A coins. Like I have said before, if your taste is the same as CAC then all is good! After all the stickers are applied based on 1 person's preference in coins.
We can find examples of over-graded, unded- graded and correctly-graded coins **anytime ANYONE examines a large group of coins.
BTW, you're lucky I'm not looking at your coins and using my PERSONAL standards. I'd bet most of your "A" coins would not hold up. Remember grading is subjective. We each have our own personal standards that must be abandoned the minute we put our "professional" hat on. Then the company standards apply.
More importantly, does JA back up his opinion with a buy price? That would make a big difference between your opinion and his.
LOL! Go have a look at the #2 set of Everyman Barber Halves. Most are A coins but not all!
Why do you ask if I mostly collect foreign coins? Not any more but I did for over 40 years! In fact I attribute what ability I have to grade from observations of wear patterns from many,many different types and designs of coins!
Do you collect mostly foreign coins? Anyway as you wrote:
Hmmmmm….I've seen enough CAC coins to say this! Some of his A coins are my C coins and some of his C coins are my A coins. Like I have said before, if your taste is the same as CAC then all is good! After all the stickers are applied based on 1 person's preference in coins.
We can find examples of over-graded, unded- graded and correctly-graded coins **anytime ANYONE examines a large group of coins.
BTW, you're lucky I'm not looking at your coins and using my PERSONAL standards. I'd bet most of your "A" coins would not hold up. Remember grading is subjective. We each have our own personal standards that must be abandoned the minute we put our "professional" hat on. Then the company standards apply.
More importantly, does JA back up his opinion with a buy price? That would make a big difference between your opinion and his.
@MrEureka said:
There was never a time in the history of our hobby when anything close to the majority of collectors were able to expertly grade coins.
Very true. I researched the history of coin grading in the US and gave the presentation at several venues. Even after Brown and Dunn 'standardized' grading and James Ruddy added images, there has always been a large gap between the ability of collectors to grade relative to experts in the hobby.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Grades are an opinion, not a statement of fact. CAC provides an opinion of a TPG's grading opinion.
No grading service or individual can determine the absolute, never changing, permanent grade of a coin. Why? Grading is subjective and grading standards do not exist ... only guidelines.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Comments
NGC never guaranteed copper or copper-nickel coins in the old fatties. The guarantee was expanded in April 2003 to provide more coverage similar to the PCGS guarantee. To limit liability, the company created a 10 year expiration period for its warranty when the guarantee was expanded to cover copper.
@Broadstruck
Did it sticker? If so tell him that while NGC is good for 10 years JA is like a diamond and lasts forever.
Did you perhaps, mean “copper-nickel” where you wrote “nickel”? I am unaware of any exclusions from coverage for nickel coinage.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I meant copper-nickel. I will go back and edit my post.
This is a $400 item. I've only ever made arrangements for something to go via CAC if it's nearing 5 figures or more and not having a sticker is a deal breaker. That's only if the buyer has a CAC account as I'm not even set up to submit.
As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it.
The % of white was a marketing tool devised by Lewis Revels (RIP) at PCI during the time in the 1990's when "blast white" was the preferred color for silver coins - that is before many of them became rainbow toners "overnight" when tastes changed.
WOW!
"As you know, color has been associated with the grade of copper coins from before many of us were born. Therefore, it seems to me that we and the TPGS are stuck with it."
Please elaborate Insider.
Thanks as always,
Ray
5 figures is laughable to me because I can't imagine paying that much for a coin ....what is that? XX,XXX?
$10,000 at the least?
I'm envious Broadstruck.
Would you believe there are 6 figure and 7 figure coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
What is there to say. Sheldon associated the color of copper with VALUE. Since a copper coin started out 'red," that was the most desirable indication of its degree of originality. So once a coin had no wear, its color had the most effect on its MS grade.
Think about it. When a 2019 cent is struck. virtually the only difference between each coin in the bag will be any mint caused imperfections from the planchet, the dies, or anything that gets between them, and the amount of design detail on the coin due to its strike and the condition of the dies. Their color will be uniform.
The same goes for early copper coins when they were first struck. That's why color was important to collectors. The coins did not start with PMD or the amount of impact damage we see on our larger coins.
The EAC has published a very good reference on grading copper.
Outside of the EAC community, color was not an essential part of the grade of a mint state copper coin until PCGS opened its doors. At that time, including a color designation seemed like a good idea because it facilitated "the dream" of sight-unseen trading. Today, in the post-sight-unseen era, it's counterproductive.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Yeah back when Teletrade's auction catalog looked like phone book listings and you had to rotary dial in the 4 digit code for the lot wanted to bid on a color designation came in handy. For anyone else who just read this and now also feels older than dirt... You're Welcome!
The truth is they can say the same to all these ms70 grades of all these milk spotted silver coins. After milk spot it's only worth silver weight with some exceptions to low mintages etc.
Since we moved on past the "sight-unseen era" as you phrase it (and I agree), do we really need all of the grades and grade enhancements that we have today? Why not go back to the way things were pre sight-unseen trading and leave the TPGs for authenticity, finding problems like tooling or cleaning, and assigning a rudimentary grade as a starting point (and that could be used to calculate any liability under the guarantee).
Most people don't know how to grade, and nobody can grade well based on online images.
On the other hand, everyone can see colors.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
That's disturbing. If most cannot grade and are relying on someone else's subjective opinion without the ability or willingness to think and learn for themselves then that doesn't bode very well for the future of our hobby.
I will buy almost any PCGS MS70 silver eagle anyone wants to get rid of from 1988-2000 for 10 times melt, even if there is a milk spot.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
There was never a time in the history of our hobby when anything close to the majority of collectors were able to expertly grade coins.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Some in the hobby thinks cac are experts. Personally I don't think the cac can grade themselves out of a wet paper bag. The fraud can't go poof soon enough but mark my words it will.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
I'll need to check into that. As you know, coins were being graded by TPGS's before PCGS was a twinkle in Mr. Hall's eye. "Essential" may be the word that makes you correct.
“Some in the hobby thinks cac are experts. Personally I don't think the cac can grade themselves out of a wet paper bag. The fraud can't go poof soon enough but mark my words it will.”
See forum rule 4.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Are you crazy? With an opinion like yours, I'm beginning to wonder.
CAC probably has some of the best graders in the country. At least I read that JA is unquestionably one of them. FURTHERMORE, IMHO, they have the easiest job in the world. All they need to do is look at a coin already graded by some of the top graders in the country and decide if the coin is graded correctly as an (A/B). Perhaps it is your head that's in a bag.
I didn't bash anything it is what it is and I'd hardly call the cac a "grading" company.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Among others, you should probably look up the definitions for “bash” and “fraud”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Exactly the don't grade anything. If they want to be graders man up and go start encapsulating some coins in plastic. This sticker BS is ruining this once great hobby.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
nything close to the majority of collectors were able to expertly grade coins.
smh...sometimes there are no words.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
e easiest job in the world.** All they need to do is look at a coin already graded by some of the top graders in the country and decide if the coin is graded correctly as an (A/B). Perhaps it is your head that's in a bag.
While this is really not worth a response, I feel compelled: whether you want to consider them graders or not - you called them graders, by the way - they do need to be able to grade in order to pass judgment on the coins. In fact, they are left with the HARDEST determination. Most of us can probably tell the difference, for example, between an XF45 and an AU50. For a coin in an XF45 holder, they have to decide whether it is actually an AU50 or XF-45A.B or an XF-45C. That is a much finer distinction.
And you can feel however you want about CAC stickers, but to suggest that John Albanese doesn't know anything about grading...smh....I'm back to speechless.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
A PCGS XF45 is a XF45 period. There is no A B or C. Simply a scam for more $$$$. A few around here feel the constant need to kiss the cac backside, perhaps due to financial interests, who knows. I'm certainly not one of them, go moan to the mods to bring down the ban hammer, I could care less, I trust PCGS's opinion which is why I am here and not over blowing kisses over at the cac board. Semper Fi!!!!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
You might want to fix the quotes in your post. The way it reads, the other poster's comments are not listed as quotes but as text of your response making it appear that you're making that statement. I don't think it is representative of your views.
Apparently you don't trust PCGS's opinion because they think a partnership with CAC is a good idea.
Like I said, feel what you like about CAC, but saying that John Albanese isn't an expert grader is ridiculous.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
So CAC should be excellent for you. You can purchase non-CAC approved coins at depressed values. In fact, there are lots of good opportunities for you, such as coins that turned in the holder.
Oh, and the expression is "could NOT care less".
Ya think? I have a customer that is color blind and curses all the time because he can't determine the color of a toned coin. It actually happened yesterday at the little 1 day show I attend!
Hmmmmm….I've seen enough CAC coins to say this! Some of his A coins are my C coins and some of his C coins are my A coins. Like I have said before, if your taste is the same as CAC then all is good! After all the stickers are applied based on 1 person's preference in coins.
And I see all kinds of PCGS VF's that I consider F15. That's part of the reason for the SECOND opinion.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I've even had NGC say that the guarantee on certified gold coins with minor issues like a residue may kill the grade guarantee, even a coin that was properly stored with a healthy not impaired holder. So if they want to they can try to wriggle out of previous guarantees if the coin was certified long enough ago, they can.
I have heard a number of people try to throw fear into owners of coins, like one dealer who would say that the coin could turn in the holder at any time now, so sell to him at fire sale prices.
I kind of like that discoloration more than pure silver haha. Maybe it'll end up being a rainbow coin
Please, please give it up and get informed. I think it is best for CAC to answer you but AFAIK, CAC DOES NOT claim to be a coin grading service. IMO, as stated above, they confirm that they agree with an assigned grade by folks who DO CLAIM to be a coin grading service. I'll bet many members of this forum could do the same thing!
The ONLY gripe I have about CAC is for certain reasons not to be discussed here they only sticker PCGS and NGC coins. There are very good reasons for this business decision and it is NOT what 95% of folks reading this post may think.
Wink, wink,
amwldcoin,
Do you collect mostly foreign coins? Anyway as you wrote:
Hmmmmm….I've seen enough CAC coins to say this! Some of his A coins are my C coins and some of his C coins are my A coins. Like I have said before, if your taste is the same as CAC then all is good! After all the stickers are applied based on 1 person's preference in coins.
We can find examples of over-graded, unded- graded and correctly-graded coins **anytime ANYONE examines a large group of coins.
BTW, you're lucky I'm not looking at your coins and using my PERSONAL standards. I'd bet most of your "A" coins would not hold up.
Remember grading is subjective. We each have our own personal standards that must be abandoned the minute we put our "professional" hat on. Then the company standards apply.
More importantly, does JA back up his opinion with a buy price? That would make a big difference between your opinion and his.
LOL! Go have a look at the #2 set of Everyman Barber Halves. Most are A coins but not all!
Why do you ask if I mostly collect foreign coins? Not any more but I did for over 40 years! In fact I attribute what ability I have to grade from observations of wear patterns from many,many different types and designs of coins!
Because of amwld[world]coins.
Look at my sig line!
Very true. I researched the history of coin grading in the US and gave the presentation at several venues. Even after Brown and Dunn 'standardized' grading and James Ruddy added images, there has always been a large gap between the ability of collectors to grade relative to experts in the hobby.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Until it's resubmitted and the grade changes.
Grades are an opinion, not a statement of fact. CAC provides an opinion of a TPG's grading opinion.
No grading service or individual can determine the absolute, never changing, permanent grade of a coin. Why? Grading is subjective and grading standards do not exist ... only guidelines.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces