Even though CAC looks at the coin and not PCGS OR NGC, the NGC CAC coins trade for less, many times considerably less. For lack of better words this is stupid. But as before "it is what it is. A 250k pr gold proof 20.00 is certainly worth perhaps 15% more as a PCGS.
Right THERE is the dirty stain on the sticker. As you say and I agree, this .....SHOULD...... be STUPIDITY in its purest form.
But it's not. It's a market reality and casts (for me) even more distrust of the "eyes" of CAC.
The very fact that the sticker means LESS on white plastic is silly.
It throws out every ....."it's the coin, stupid"...... argument that works its way into these threads.
@Perfection said:
7. Don't laugh. Maybe PCGS should offer a service that sends newly graded coins to CAC for the submitter. Why not? Charge x per coin. Lots of time and money would be saved by many people.
Interesting. It does seem to be the logical next step (wise or not).
So you state that out of 100 CAC coins, 85 are PCGS. 85%. I bet it is higher. I would bet that in the last two years it is 90% or more. Keep in mind that every cross changes this percentage.
So if a coin crosses it is one more PCGS but you need to deduct one from the NGC column.
Even though we're not far apart (I said in my reply near the bottom of page 5 approximately 85% of CAC coins in auctions are graded by PCGS on average, a ratio of 5.7 to 1, 85% to 15%, and you say 90%, a ratio of 9 to 1, 90% to 10% - not far from your original 10 -1 estimate) I might take you up on that bet (for a drink at Winter FUN on Friday).
So I just now took a look at the current auction listings of the three companies I mentioned in my reply above on page 5 - Heritage, Great Collections, and DLRC. I filtered each to determine how many of their lots are coins with CAC's, and then of those, filtered to see how many were graded by PCGS. Keep in mind these vary from one auction period to the next. For the current Heritage Dallas Signature auction, 90.7% of the current lots with CAC's are graded by PCGS; For GC, ending later tonight, 79.7% of the lots with CAC's are graded by PCGS, and David Lawrence currently has three auctions live, and of the CAC lots in those three auctions, 83.8% of those are graded by PCGS.
Separately, when a coin crosses from NGC to PCGS, that does not automatically mean it will get a CAC, so I disagree with your point, unless you are implying that only for NGC coins with CAC's crossing to PCGS. While not automatic, I then agree with you that those coins will in all likelihood get a CAC on their new PCGS slab. Regardless, coins that have crossed are already reflected in the above current auction lots.
One other thing for BOTH of us to take into account is that of all the coins submitted to CAC, it is highly likely that many more of those submitted are in PCGS holders compared to NGC holders, so that is indeed PART of the reason that there are more PCGS coins with CAC's than NGC coins. Only JA potentially knows the CAC approval rate of PCGS coins submitted to them compared to the approval rate of NGC coins submitted to CAC.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Perfection said:
7. Don't laugh. Maybe PCGS should offer a service that sends newly graded coins to CAC for the submitter. Why not? Charge x per coin. Lots of time and money would be saved by many people.
Interesting. It does seem to be the logical next step (wise or not).
And when it doesn't CAC people will be angry with PCGS for not grading it to CAC standards. Or will more CAC because PCGS sent them directly? Will there be stats on that? It would be turning from collaboration to collusion.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Once again, this is one of those threads where I wish I had taken speed reading classes.
After reading through it though, I have to wonder how many complaints PCGS is/will be taking because their holdered coins did not pass CAC standards and what is their reply to these complaints from their consumers.
After reading through it though, I have to wonder how many complaints PCGS is/will be taking because their holdered coins did not pass CAC standards and what is their reply to these complaints from their consumers.
Hey, remember that CAC says they will not sticker "C" coins, but only coins "solid" for the grade. As such, PCGS graders did nothing wrong by assigning a particular grade where that coin is a "C" coin - in the lower part of that grade range. Both parties can be correct when a coin does not sticker.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
After reading through it though, I have to wonder how many complaints PCGS is/will be taking because their holdered coins did not pass CAC standards and what is their reply to these complaints from their consumers.
Hey, remember that CAC says they will not sticker "C" coins, but only coins "solid" for the grade. As such, PCGS graders did nothing wrong by assigning a particular grade where that coin is a "C" coin - in the lower part of that grade range. Both parties can be correct when a coin does not sticker.
I understand this, and you do as well, but I guarantee you that a lot of people do not.
My opinion is that since PCGS has started a CAC registry, they should be clear that they are completely separate entities and there are no guarantees your coin will be CAC acceptable.
@Perfection said:
7. Don't laugh. Maybe PCGS should offer a service that sends newly graded coins to CAC for the submitter. Why not? Charge x per coin. Lots of time and money would be saved by many people.
Interesting. It does seem to be the logical next step (wise or not).
I suppose you could use CAC as your return shipping address for your submission, and all PCGS would have to do is ship to the return address as normal. You'd have to have a CAC account and be able to give them a heads-up in the form of a copy of your PCGS submission form with a CAC submission form that they would receive ahead of receiving your coins. It would save you the work and cost of sending your coins to CAC after receiving them, but you'd lose the opportunity to combine with other coins or remove coins from the CAC submission that you didn't think would be worth submitting.
After reading through it though, I have to wonder how many complaints PCGS is/will be taking because their holdered coins did not pass CAC standards and what is their reply to these complaints from their consumers.
Hey, remember that CAC says they will not sticker "C" coins, but only coins "solid" for the grade. As such, PCGS graders did nothing wrong by assigning a particular grade where that coin is a "C" coin - in the lower part of that grade range. Both parties can be correct when a coin does not sticker.
I get that perspective but it's the escape route. That's where this game gets played.....and it is a game. "This "C" coin NEVER should have graded 55 because now it won't sticker! This is an "A" 53 stickerable coin all day long!
Really, what are we doing here?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
After reading through it though, I have to wonder how many complaints PCGS is/will be taking because their holdered coins did not pass CAC standards and what is their reply to these complaints from their consumers.
Hey, remember that CAC says they will not sticker "C" coins, but only coins "solid" for the grade. As such, PCGS graders did nothing wrong by assigning a particular grade where that coin is a "C" coin - in the lower part of that grade range. Both parties can be correct when a coin does not sticker.
I get that perspective but it's the escape route. That's where this game gets played.....and it is a game. "This "C" coin NEVER should have graded 55 because now it won't sticker! This is an "A" 53 stickerable coin all day long!
Really, what are we doing here?
Yep, this was discussed a decade or more ago, the concept of downgrading in order to get a sticker..
I'm one of the few (or many?) that wished this wasn't happening. I don't own a single CAC coin, and I feel fortunate that us world coin collectors are spared from all of this.
@neildrobertson said:
I'm one of the few (or many?) that wished this wasn't happening. I don't own a single CAC coin, and I feel fortunate that us world coin collectors are spared from all of this.
Does everyone understand that all the old NON-CAC Sets are remaining as is?
A CAC Set of the same series as ones that you collect will not impact your current sets.
I don't understand why people are getting upset because new sets are being added?
@ms70 said:
It's not about new sets. See my post above.
Well, It has been this way ever since CAC was started. Same thing can be said about all third oarty grading. My NGC, ICG, ANACS or Billy Bob's Coin grading Service coin did not cross to PCGS.
CAC coins are generally nicer than their NON-CAC brothers or sisters. Nothing wrong with a registry that recognizes that.
@ms70 said:
It's not about new sets. See my post above.
Well, It has been this way ever since CAC was started. Same thing can be said about all third oarty grading. My NGC, ICG, ANACS or Billy Bob's Coin grading Service coin did not cross to PCGS.
CAC coins are generally nicer than their NON-CAC brothers or sisters. Nothing wrong with a registry that recognizes that.
This is the way it is,,,,,,,
It's not third party grading. It's 4th party.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
This is pure madness and probably another company shakeup looming. This puts NGC CAC coins right beside them as they should be. Koolaid drinkers out there ought to be shocked as well because your non CAC PCGS coins will fall further in value.
@Perfection said:
Good morning,
Why is the grade deflation silly? It is simply numbers and demand.
To play devil's advocate, why is grade inflation silly? It too is simply a numbers and demand game by your logic. The problem with both inflation and deflation is that it artificially compresses the grading distributions and does not allow for sufficient distinction of quality among exemplars. The other major problem is lack of consistency. It doesn't matter what we call the coin as long it is consistent and doesn't confuse the market.
The reality is that grades, plastic, and stickers are all relative. Unfortunately this is lost on too many today. Part of it is that very few in this hobby seemingly know what they're actually doing so they rely on others to tell them what is nice. It is insane when a hobby tries to force its participants to distinguish between a 65-, 65, 65+, and 65++ coins to learn to "grade." Maybe when collectors finally realize that market grading (i.e. placing a value on a coin - a dynamic variable - and assigning it a "grade" based on market value - a static variable - is a recipe for disaster and chaos) the market will stabilize. I'm not getting my hopes up. There are far too many people that benefit from inconsistency and this warped market paradigm and hint: It's not collectors and small dealers that are the beneficiaries.
@Perfection said:
Good morning,
Why is the grade deflation silly? It is simply numbers and demand.
If a 66 CAC is worth close to a 67 PCGS it is a downgrade potential.
However the spreads do not allow this for the most part. I believe they will more so in time.
Also now that there is a Cac registry it will 100% happen more as competitive well off people do not care if a 67 non cac is worth more when they need it as a 66CAC. for their set.
This is very similar to NGC. Plenty are downgraded by one grade to get into a pcgs
holder. Everyone is aware that NGC grades are very loose putting it nicely.
The business is so sad. We all know the larger dealers who upgrade pcgs into NGC
and then sell the coin form what looks like a very good price.
No it is not buyer beware. The average collector is not aware of what goes on.
What other business works like this?
About PCGS pops. Yes I believe they are off in many areas. The registry scoring is also outdated and simply wrong based,on the pops. I wrote about ms67 Barber halves as a good example.
I could help fix it but they are not interested. Scoring has to be based on pops.
So what happens when crack out dealer x, sends in a coin eight times? (raw)
Does pcgs not increase the pops based on who the submitter is? Perhaps.
Does the pop go up by eight and then down by eight three months later if x mails in
a basket of coin tags? If x does not submit tags the pop is 8 higher. I don't think so.
Therefore pcgs is doing something to try to be accurate.
I really so not know what. On rarer coins sometimes you see pop 3. However over 20 years
there are sales records for two. Is there really three. Maybe not.
When a pop 1 becomes a pop 2. is it the pop 1, or is it the grade lower that has been upgraded?
Was the pop from the grade lower coin reduced. I am sure pcgs does its best to try and keep
things accurate but. they are at the mercy of crack out dealers.
Then there is CAC where I believe many of the better pops are off.
Does crack out dealer x, want CAC. to know that the 50 coins they just submitted were all cac
crack outs. Many times not. Common sense. it must for lack of want to use stronger words,
"bother" JA that certain people make a good living cracking CAC coins.
We treat this as second nature but iit is sad and a joke. If you told people who know zero about coins what goes on they were be amazed .
Sorry for ranting but technology exists to finger print a coin, That would end the game, and millions of profits to many, many people. So it can't happen.
Lets face it there is always a margin of error with many things. It is also common sense.
Sadly more and more very nice CAC coins get cracked because they have the highest chance
of upgrading. Perhaps thousands of them. When there is no upgrade and sent back to
CAC to get the sticker back isn't it again common sense to estimate that 20% of the old tags did not get sent to CAC? These things are not my opinions but human nature and what happens.
Lastly the new registry is wonderful. If enough people demand cac coins there will less
incentive to upgrade.
What?
@Ronyahski If some have their way in this hobby (as it is beginning to look is possible) then the text you quoted (or logic that is the basis for it) is the future of our hobby.
@joebb21 said: @BryceM who is a former cac grader? All the graders there are the same ones that have been there since the beginning???
Mark Feld did some grading for them short term. I'm sure there are others who have filled in over the years. The core team hasn't changed to the best of my knowledge though.
@joebb21 said: @BryceM who is a former cac grader? All the graders there are the same ones that have been there since the beginning???
Mark Feld did some grading for them short term. I'm sure there are others who have filled in over the years. The core team hasn't changed to the best of my knowledge though.
Let’s say I'm considering buying a coin currently in a MS 64 slab. What gen holder is it in and how many grading events has it gone through? Has it been to CAC? Could it maybe go 5 or is it already maxed out, for now. If it 5s and doesn’t bean will no one care? Will it have to be a 3 to bean? I’ll surly have to resubmit to whatever is in vogue 5-20+ years from now when I sell if not too much damage has been done before that to matter. The ever changing repackaging is exhausting.
This all makes an already convoluted market even more complex and difficult to follow. Every time there is a new normal not all people/coins keep up with the changes creating ever finer sections for placement, either accurate or not on the flowchart of grading/value possibilities.
I also see registry competitors and registry point values as dictating coins overall coin prices. I’m not building a registry but might as well be if I’m buying slabbed US coins. PCGS registry with CAC now entwines and influences this more. Plus or neg, it seems kinda bazaar.
Not that this thread really needs another opinion but I'm not enthusiastic about more varieties of registry sets. For example, there are already 35 different kinds of Morgan Dollar registry sets. Do we really need to double this to 70 with the CAC-only variations on each? It dilutes the meaning of being #1 if there are 69 other #1 Morgan Dollar sets.
Wow. A lot of comments. Most far more eloquent than mine will be. I pay a lot (IMO) for a PCGS grade (an expert opinion). I've have not yet bought into paying additional money for a coorborating opinion. Not sure where it ends. Another expert opinion? I saw in an earlier comment that 90+ percent of "good" coins have been looked at by CAC. Don't think so. Lot's of coins in older collections have not made their way to CAC yet. I will probably send my coins to CAC prior to selling them but it will bug me to do so. Keoj
As we discuss this new acceptance of CAC into PCGS registry sets, I have been been assembling a set of PCGS/CAC only Peace Dollars. And with that said, I question the validity of a CAC opinion on copper, especially with all of the color combinations, implications of AT vs. NT, CAM or DCAM. Rick Snow @eagleeye provides a superior grade evaluation to CAC for copper coins, IMHO. Perhaps PCGS should also make his PhotoShield sticker equivalent to a CAC sticker for all of the PCGS/CAC copper registry sets.
@tradedollarnut said:
Trade dollar set - all CAC
Seated dollar set - all CAC
Early dollar set - not all CAC
18th century type set no gold - all CAC
18th century type set with gold - all CAC
If we exclude the 1804 dollar and any other coins where there are no CACed exemplars, is your early dollar set still not all CAC?
@joebb21 said: @BryceM who is a former cac grader? All the graders there are the same ones that have been there since the beginning???
Mark Feld did some grading for them short term. I'm sure there are others who have filled in over the years. The core team hasn't changed to the best of my knowledge though.
I just sat in with them at one show, many years ago. But I sure enjoyed it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Even though CAC looks at the coin and not PCGS OR NGC, the NGC CAC coins trade for less, many times considerably less. For lack of better words this is stupid. But as before "it is what it is. A 250k pr gold proof 20.00 is certainly worth perhaps 15% more as a PCGS.
Right THERE is the dirty stain on the sticker. As you say and I agree, this .....SHOULD...... be STUPIDITY in its purest form.
But it's not. It's a market reality and casts (for me) even more distrust of the "eyes" of CAC.
The very fact that the sticker means LESS on white plastic is silly.
It throws out every ....."it's the coin, stupid"...... argument that works its way into these threads.
The new registry will exacerbate this phenomenon.
Doesn't this say more about coin collectors than CAC?
Even though CAC looks at the coin and not PCGS OR NGC, the NGC CAC coins trade for less, many times considerably less. For lack of better words this is stupid. But as before "it is what it is. A 250k pr gold proof 20.00 is certainly worth perhaps 15% more as a PCGS.
Right THERE is the dirty stain on the sticker. As you say and I agree, this .....SHOULD...... be STUPIDITY in its purest form.
But it's not. It's a market reality and casts (for me) even more distrust of the "eyes" of CAC.
The very fact that the sticker means LESS on white plastic is silly.
It throws out every ....."it's the coin, stupid"...... argument that works its way into these threads.
The new registry will exacerbate this phenomenon.
Doesn't this say more about coin collectors than CAC?
Sure. I suppose I should have said, "the CAC phenomenon."
Most of the time NGC coins are worth less than PCGS coins
without a CAC sticker
To think that because an NGC coin
gets a CAC sticker it will automatically be of equal value as a
PCGS coin with a sticker is
wishful thinking.
@RedCopper said:
Most of the time NGC coins are worth less than PCGS coins
without a CAC sticker
To think that because an NGC coin
gets a CAC sticker it will automatically be of equal value as a
PCGS coin with a sticker is
wishful thinking.
While all of my coins are PCGS, I do believe the value gap between NGC and PCGS narrows when comparing coins with CAC stickers. However, i do agree that IMO the "market" still makes PCGS coins with the sticker worth a bit more than the NGC with the sticker (even though in theory that should not be the case if they both have stickers, everything else being equal).
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@RedCopper said:
Most of the time NGC coins are worth less than PCGS coins
without a CAC sticker
To think that because an NGC coin
gets a CAC sticker it will automatically be of equal value as a
PCGS coin with a sticker is
wishful thinking.
Actually, it's simple logic. A PCGS 65 sells form more than an NGC 65 because the market views the PCGS coin as more strictly graded.
A 65 CAC should be A/B for the grade whether NGC or PCGS. The market seems to assume that the PCGS 65 CAC is an A and the NGC 65 CAC is a B, but that is nonsensical and not at all what the CAC means.
In some series, the 65 no CAC PCGS sells for more than the 65 CAC NGC. [Assume both have been to CAC.] That is completely illogical since CAC's opinion is that the NGC coin is an A/B coin and the PCGS coin is a C coin.
You could argue that this means the market values PCGS's opinion more than CAC, but that flies in the face of the reality that CAC coins sell for a premium. The market prefers JA's opinion to PCGS's.
@RedCopper said:
To think that because an NGC coin
gets a CAC sticker it will automatically be of equal value as a
PCGS coin with a sticker is
wishful thinking.
Explain why two of the same coin, both graded the same (let's just pick 65), both with a green sticker, but one is NGC and the other PCGS, would not trade for exactly the same money? The overall CAC argument implies the playing field has been completely leveled.
To say they trade for different money is saying the green sticker makes one coin solid for an NGC 65, and the other coin solid for a PCGS 65, but the grading standards are different. Nope, not any more. A stickered 65 is a stickered 65 and a sticker makes it solid for the grade. So why the price disparity?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@Catbert said:
Why the market disparity? Higher market demand for pcgs plastic.
But that's the point. Supposedly, as stated in my above example stickered coins in the same grade are equal regardless of the plastic. So they're not? Why? Or is it a collection of stickered plastic and not coins? That's what I want to find out.
Nobody is answering that.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@Catbert said:
Why the market disparity? Higher market demand for pcgs plastic.
But that's the point. Supposedly, as stated in my above example stickered coins in the same grade are equal regardless of the plastic. So they're not? Why? Or is it a collection of stickered plastic and not coins? That's what I want to find out.
Nobody is answering that.
What @Catbert is saying is that in theory you are correct, but in the real world many collectors and dealers will value the PCGS plastic with a sticker slightly higher than NGC with a sticker, even though in theory they shouldn't. There's a name for that, and it's Behavioral Economics. The bottom line is the "market" will pay what the market will pay, even if in theory there should be a difference from that "market" value..
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Catbert said:
Why the market disparity? Higher market demand for pcgs plastic.
But that's the point. Supposedly, as stated in my above example stickered coins in the same grade are equal regardless of the plastic. So they're not? Why? Or is it a collection of stickered plastic and not coins? That's what I want to find out.
Nobody is answering that.
It's The Market. There could be a number of reasons, some of which are probably fallacies.
Fallacy: People believe the PCGS coin is automatically an A and the NGC is a B.
Market reality: People know there is a market preference and adjust their bids down. There is a chicken/egg argument here, but once there is a market preference, it is self-fulfilling even if the original reason is fallacious.
Market preference: People want PCGS plastic because of their registry set and there's a premium associated with being in the right plastic.
Why does an identical coin sell for more in PCGS plastic than raw? It's the SAME coin. Why does a coin in PCGS 65 sell for less than the IDENTICAL COIN in PCGS 66. The Market puts its preference on things. They don't have to be rational
The issue with NGC CAC is actually really not that complicated. PCGS does not cross some NGC CAC coins at grade. Therefore, the registry demand is less in the NGC grade because of risk.
@Catbert said:
Why the market disparity? Higher market demand for pcgs plastic.
But that's the point. Supposedly, as stated in my above example stickered coins in the same grade are equal regardless of the plastic. So they're not? Why? Or is it a collection of stickered plastic and not coins? That's what I want to find out.
Nobody is answering that.
Brand loyalty, its that simple. PCGS did a great job of building brand loyalty thru a number of different channels and that bias still lives in the market today. You are correct that the two coins should trade for the same amount but as long as there are people that value the plastic more than the coin you will see this disparity continue, some collectors are slaves to plastic.
MS 70 asks WHY does two coins with identical grades and both stickered sell for different dollar amounts ? One is NGC and the other is PCGS.
Because of the PCGS Set Registry popularity and the participants who want to be #1 or rated higher than the next guy.
Just ask Dell Loy Hansen
CAC in my opinion serves as the best insurance to keep gradeflation in check among other
insurance policies for the coin market.
As JA would say without collectors , there would not be a coin market as we now see it.
A silly question....if CAC is the new arbitor of "true" solid for the grade", still not understanding a PCGS/CAC vs NGC/CAC value differential? Also, why wouldn't a NGC/CAC coin simply cross? Is that because PCGS believes that it takes two opinions? And here we are, back to two opinions. Wouldn't 3 opinions be even better?
@BBN said:
So are we on our way to treating non stickered slabs as if they're raw? Like PCGS grading can't be trusted?
As @jmlanzaf correctly says, absolutely not. However, the reason for our current two-tier market between slabs without a CAC, and those that merit and have a CAC is not that they're treated as raw, but are treated as follows:
1. They may be "C" coins, at the lower end of the grade.
2. They may have surface issues of one type or another.
3. It's possible they may not have been submitted to CAC.
On this third point though, If I'm looking at a coin that's above a certain value (I'll leave that amount out to try to minimize going off topic), and if there's clearly a pricing differential in that grade between those with a CAC and those without, I ask myself, "Why would the owner selling that coin not pay just $15 to try to get a CAC? We can each reach our own conclusions, but my conclusion for coins above a certain value without a CAC is that they were submitted and failed to merit one. Just my opinion for my own conclusion.
What about us thousands of collectors that don't send any coins to CAC and don't plan to?
Comments
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Right THERE is the dirty stain on the sticker. As you say and I agree, this .....SHOULD...... be STUPIDITY in its purest form.
But it's not. It's a market reality and casts (for me) even more distrust of the "eyes" of CAC.
The very fact that the sticker means LESS on white plastic is silly.
It throws out every ....."it's the coin, stupid"...... argument that works its way into these threads.
The new registry will exacerbate this phenomenon.
Interesting. It does seem to be the logical next step (wise or not).
Smitten with DBLCs.
Even though we're not far apart (I said in my reply near the bottom of page 5 approximately 85% of CAC coins in auctions are graded by PCGS on average, a ratio of 5.7 to 1, 85% to 15%, and you say 90%, a ratio of 9 to 1, 90% to 10% - not far from your original 10 -1 estimate) I might take you up on that bet (for a drink at Winter FUN on Friday).
So I just now took a look at the current auction listings of the three companies I mentioned in my reply above on page 5 - Heritage, Great Collections, and DLRC. I filtered each to determine how many of their lots are coins with CAC's, and then of those, filtered to see how many were graded by PCGS. Keep in mind these vary from one auction period to the next. For the current Heritage Dallas Signature auction, 90.7% of the current lots with CAC's are graded by PCGS; For GC, ending later tonight, 79.7% of the lots with CAC's are graded by PCGS, and David Lawrence currently has three auctions live, and of the CAC lots in those three auctions, 83.8% of those are graded by PCGS.
Separately, when a coin crosses from NGC to PCGS, that does not automatically mean it will get a CAC, so I disagree with your point, unless you are implying that only for NGC coins with CAC's crossing to PCGS. While not automatic, I then agree with you that those coins will in all likelihood get a CAC on their new PCGS slab. Regardless, coins that have crossed are already reflected in the above current auction lots.
One other thing for BOTH of us to take into account is that of all the coins submitted to CAC, it is highly likely that many more of those submitted are in PCGS holders compared to NGC holders, so that is indeed PART of the reason that there are more PCGS coins with CAC's than NGC coins. Only JA potentially knows the CAC approval rate of PCGS coins submitted to them compared to the approval rate of NGC coins submitted to CAC.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
And when it doesn't CAC people will be angry with PCGS for not grading it to CAC standards. Or will more CAC because PCGS sent them directly? Will there be stats on that? It would be turning from collaboration to collusion.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Once again, this is one of those threads where I wish I had taken speed reading classes.
After reading through it though, I have to wonder how many complaints PCGS is/will be taking because their holdered coins did not pass CAC standards and what is their reply to these complaints from their consumers.
Hey, remember that CAC says they will not sticker "C" coins, but only coins "solid" for the grade. As such, PCGS graders did nothing wrong by assigning a particular grade where that coin is a "C" coin - in the lower part of that grade range. Both parties can be correct when a coin does not sticker.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I understand this, and you do as well, but I guarantee you that a lot of people do not.
My opinion is that since PCGS has started a CAC registry, they should be clear that they are completely separate entities and there are no guarantees your coin will be CAC acceptable.
I suppose you could use CAC as your return shipping address for your submission, and all PCGS would have to do is ship to the return address as normal. You'd have to have a CAC account and be able to give them a heads-up in the form of a copy of your PCGS submission form with a CAC submission form that they would receive ahead of receiving your coins. It would save you the work and cost of sending your coins to CAC after receiving them, but you'd lose the opportunity to combine with other coins or remove coins from the CAC submission that you didn't think would be worth submitting.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I get that perspective but it's the escape route. That's where this game gets played.....and it is a game. "This "C" coin NEVER should have graded 55 because now it won't sticker! This is an "A" 53 stickerable coin all day long!
Really, what are we doing here?
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Yep, this was discussed a decade or more ago, the concept of downgrading in order to get a sticker..
What's better, pcgs AU53 gold, AU55 green, or AU58 (failed cac)
And, what if it's the same coin?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I ass/u/me that PCGS is adding more sets to the CAC list as time allows?
How about a short set of Buffalo Nickels 1934 - 1938
I'm one of the few (or many?) that wished this wasn't happening. I don't own a single CAC coin, and I feel fortunate that us world coin collectors are spared from all of this.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Does everyone understand that all the old NON-CAC Sets are remaining as is?
A CAC Set of the same series as ones that you collect will not impact your current sets.
I don't understand why people are getting upset because new sets are being added?
It's not about new sets. See my post above.
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Well, It has been this way ever since CAC was started. Same thing can be said about all third oarty grading. My NGC, ICG, ANACS or Billy Bob's Coin grading Service coin did not cross to PCGS.
CAC coins are generally nicer than their NON-CAC brothers or sisters. Nothing wrong with a registry that recognizes that.
This is the way it is,,,,,,,
It's not third party grading. It's 4th party.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I am not talking about CAC Stickering, Talking about not crossing to PCGS, same thing as not CACing a coin.
Just curious, who are the 1st and 2nd parties prior to TPGS? Collector then dealer?
End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All of Us
ANA LM, LSCC, EAC, FUN
Yes.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
This is pure madness and probably another company shakeup looming. This puts NGC CAC coins right beside them as they should be. Koolaid drinkers out there ought to be shocked as well because your non CAC PCGS coins will fall further in value.
That's something I never even gave thought to. The playing field is now level.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
To play devil's advocate, why is grade inflation silly? It too is simply a numbers and demand game by your logic. The problem with both inflation and deflation is that it artificially compresses the grading distributions and does not allow for sufficient distinction of quality among exemplars. The other major problem is lack of consistency. It doesn't matter what we call the coin as long it is consistent and doesn't confuse the market.
The reality is that grades, plastic, and stickers are all relative. Unfortunately this is lost on too many today. Part of it is that very few in this hobby seemingly know what they're actually doing so they rely on others to tell them what is nice. It is insane when a hobby tries to force its participants to distinguish between a 65-, 65, 65+, and 65++ coins to learn to "grade." Maybe when collectors finally realize that market grading (i.e. placing a value on a coin - a dynamic variable - and assigning it a "grade" based on market value - a static variable - is a recipe for disaster and chaos) the market will stabilize. I'm not getting my hopes up. There are far too many people that benefit from inconsistency and this warped market paradigm and hint: It's not collectors and small dealers that are the beneficiaries.
@Ronyahski If some have their way in this hobby (as it is beginning to look is possible) then the text you quoted (or logic that is the basis for it) is the future of our hobby.
Mark Feld did some grading for them short term. I'm sure there are others who have filled in over the years. The core team hasn't changed to the best of my knowledge though.
Yup.
Let’s say I'm considering buying a coin currently in a MS 64 slab. What gen holder is it in and how many grading events has it gone through? Has it been to CAC? Could it maybe go 5 or is it already maxed out, for now. If it 5s and doesn’t bean will no one care? Will it have to be a 3 to bean? I’ll surly have to resubmit to whatever is in vogue 5-20+ years from now when I sell if not too much damage has been done before that to matter. The ever changing repackaging is exhausting.
This all makes an already convoluted market even more complex and difficult to follow. Every time there is a new normal not all people/coins keep up with the changes creating ever finer sections for placement, either accurate or not on the flowchart of grading/value possibilities.
I also see registry competitors and registry point values as dictating coins overall coin prices. I’m not building a registry but might as well be if I’m buying slabbed US coins. PCGS registry with CAC now entwines and influences this more. Plus or neg, it seems kinda bazaar.
Tell that to all the coins in my sig line that are apparently "C" quality.
(except the 20 & 23-D)
My Saint Set
Not that this thread really needs another opinion but I'm not enthusiastic about more varieties of registry sets. For example, there are already 35 different kinds of Morgan Dollar registry sets. Do we really need to double this to 70 with the CAC-only variations on each? It dilutes the meaning of being #1 if there are 69 other #1 Morgan Dollar sets.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Be sure to consign to Laura, but I hope she doesn't have a mini stroke when cataloging it.
Wow. A lot of comments. Most far more eloquent than mine will be. I pay a lot (IMO) for a PCGS grade (an expert opinion). I've have not yet bought into paying additional money for a coorborating opinion. Not sure where it ends. Another expert opinion? I saw in an earlier comment that 90+ percent of "good" coins have been looked at by CAC. Don't think so. Lot's of coins in older collections have not made their way to CAC yet. I will probably send my coins to CAC prior to selling them but it will bug me to do so. Keoj
As we discuss this new acceptance of CAC into PCGS registry sets, I have been been assembling a set of PCGS/CAC only Peace Dollars. And with that said, I question the validity of a CAC opinion on copper, especially with all of the color combinations, implications of AT vs. NT, CAM or DCAM. Rick Snow @eagleeye provides a superior grade evaluation to CAC for copper coins, IMHO. Perhaps PCGS should also make his PhotoShield sticker equivalent to a CAC sticker for all of the PCGS/CAC copper registry sets.
OINK
If we exclude the 1804 dollar and any other coins where there are no CACed exemplars, is your early dollar set still not all CAC?
I just sat in with them at one show, many years ago. But I sure enjoyed it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Doesn't this say more about coin collectors than CAC?
Not. CAC and PCGS standards are different to start with and had have different factors weighted differently in their evaluations..........
Sure. I suppose I should have said, "the CAC phenomenon."
Most of the time NGC coins are worth less than PCGS coins
without a CAC sticker
To think that because an NGC coin
gets a CAC sticker it will automatically be of equal value as a
PCGS coin with a sticker is
wishful thinking.
While all of my coins are PCGS, I do believe the value gap between NGC and PCGS narrows when comparing coins with CAC stickers. However, i do agree that IMO the "market" still makes PCGS coins with the sticker worth a bit more than the NGC with the sticker (even though in theory that should not be the case if they both have stickers, everything else being equal).
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Actually, it's simple logic. A PCGS 65 sells form more than an NGC 65 because the market views the PCGS coin as more strictly graded.
A 65 CAC should be A/B for the grade whether NGC or PCGS. The market seems to assume that the PCGS 65 CAC is an A and the NGC 65 CAC is a B, but that is nonsensical and not at all what the CAC means.
In some series, the 65 no CAC PCGS sells for more than the 65 CAC NGC. [Assume both have been to CAC.] That is completely illogical since CAC's opinion is that the NGC coin is an A/B coin and the PCGS coin is a C coin.
You could argue that this means the market values PCGS's opinion more than CAC, but that flies in the face of the reality that CAC coins sell for a premium. The market prefers JA's opinion to PCGS's.
A well respected leading dealer told me something like this:
If a PCGS/CAC coin sells for a $1.00, an NGC/CAC would sell for $0.90, a PCGS non-CAC would sell for $0.80, and a NGC non-CAC would sell for $0.65.
He seems to price most of his coins this way.
Explain why two of the same coin, both graded the same (let's just pick 65), both with a green sticker, but one is NGC and the other PCGS, would not trade for exactly the same money? The overall CAC argument implies the playing field has been completely leveled.
To say they trade for different money is saying the green sticker makes one coin solid for an NGC 65, and the other coin solid for a PCGS 65, but the grading standards are different. Nope, not any more. A stickered 65 is a stickered 65 and a sticker makes it solid for the grade. So why the price disparity?
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Why the market disparity? Higher market demand for pcgs plastic.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
But that's the point. Supposedly, as stated in my above example stickered coins in the same grade are equal regardless of the plastic. So they're not? Why? Or is it a collection of stickered plastic and not coins? That's what I want to find out.
Nobody is answering that.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
What @Catbert is saying is that in theory you are correct, but in the real world many collectors and dealers will value the PCGS plastic with a sticker slightly higher than NGC with a sticker, even though in theory they shouldn't. There's a name for that, and it's Behavioral Economics. The bottom line is the "market" will pay what the market will pay, even if in theory there should be a difference from that "market" value..
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
It's The Market. There could be a number of reasons, some of which are probably fallacies.
Fallacy: People believe the PCGS coin is automatically an A and the NGC is a B.
Market reality: People know there is a market preference and adjust their bids down. There is a chicken/egg argument here, but once there is a market preference, it is self-fulfilling even if the original reason is fallacious.
Market preference: People want PCGS plastic because of their registry set and there's a premium associated with being in the right plastic.
Why does an identical coin sell for more in PCGS plastic than raw? It's the SAME coin. Why does a coin in PCGS 65 sell for less than the IDENTICAL COIN in PCGS 66. The Market puts its preference on things. They don't have to be rational
The issue with NGC CAC is actually really not that complicated. PCGS does not cross some NGC CAC coins at grade. Therefore, the registry demand is less in the NGC grade because of risk.
Brand loyalty, its that simple. PCGS did a great job of building brand loyalty thru a number of different channels and that bias still lives in the market today. You are correct that the two coins should trade for the same amount but as long as there are people that value the plastic more than the coin you will see this disparity continue, some collectors are slaves to plastic.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
MS 70 asks WHY does two coins with identical grades and both stickered sell for different dollar amounts ? One is NGC and the other is PCGS.
Because of the PCGS Set Registry popularity and the participants who want to be #1 or rated higher than the next guy.
Just ask Dell Loy Hansen
CAC in my opinion serves as the best insurance to keep gradeflation in check among other
insurance policies for the coin market.
As JA would say without collectors , there would not be a coin market as we now see it.
A silly question....if CAC is the new arbitor of "true" solid for the grade", still not understanding a PCGS/CAC vs NGC/CAC value differential? Also, why wouldn't a NGC/CAC coin simply cross? Is that because PCGS believes that it takes two opinions? And here we are, back to two opinions. Wouldn't 3 opinions be even better?
What about us thousands of collectors that don't send any coins to CAC and don't plan to?