We can stipulate that PCGS CAC is more desirable than NGC CAC for all the reasons mentioned but the reason you can’t arbitrage that (buy NGC CAC coins and cross them) is that PCGS and CAC are not 100% consistent with each other. Now, given that CAC standards are supposedly higher, I imagine the heavy majority of CAC coins would cross at grade but it is not guaranteed. The PCGS CAC vs. NGC CAC premium should reflect the probability that the coin can be crossed minus the cost of doing so.
@david3142 said:
We can stipulate that PCGS CAC is more desirable than NGC CAC for all the reasons mentioned but the reason you can’t arbitrage that (buy NGC CAC coins and cross them) is that PCGS and CAC are not 100% consistent with each other. Now, given that CAC standards are supposedly higher, I imagine the heavy majority of CAC coins would cross at grade but it is not guaranteed. The PCGS CAC vs. NGC CAC premium should reflect the probability that the coin can be crossed minus the cost of doing so.
Well said. And the trick is how to safely cross a NGC CAC to a PCGS CAC? If a NGC CAC is successfully crossed, does PCGS give back the NGC label so that the owner can resubmit it along with the PCGS coin to CAC? If a NGC CAC is not successfully crossed, does PCGS give back the NGC slab intact?
Sure, the majority of CAC Ngc coins freshly stickered by CAC will cross at grade....but you don’t get to buy those very often. The ones you get to buy have already been tried for crossover multiple times. Why would anyone give you a free lunch?
@joebb21 said: @BryceM who is a former cac grader? All the graders there are the same ones that have been there since the beginning???
Mark Feld did some grading for them short term. I'm sure there are others who have filled in over the years. The core team hasn't changed to the best of my knowledge though.
I just sat in with them at one show, many years ago. But I sure enjoyed it.
@MFeld would you therefor consider yourself a CAC former grader? Just to clarify Bryce's point that he purchased coins from "a former cac grader". I have no idea if he was referring to you or not, but sitting in with them at one show I would not label you as a "former cac grader"- unless I am mistaken?
No, I would not, so you and I are in agreement.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@tradedollarnut said:
Sure, the majority of CAC Ngc coins freshly stickered by CAC will cross at grade....but you don’t get to buy those very often. The ones you get to buy have already been tried for crossover multiple times. Why would anyone give you a free lunch?
Another assumption that has brought chaos to the coin market.
@tradedollarnut said:
Sure, the majority of CAC Ngc coins freshly stickered by CAC will cross at grade....but you don’t get to buy those very often. The ones you get to buy have already been tried for crossover multiple times. Why would anyone give you a free lunch?
Another assumption that has brought chaos to the coin market.
@tradedollarnut said:
Sure, the majority of CAC Ngc coins freshly stickered by CAC will cross at grade....but you don’t get to buy those very often. The ones you get to buy have already been tried for crossover multiple times. Why would anyone give you a free lunch?
Another assumption that has brought chaos to the coin market.
Experience...not assumption.
I don't disagree with you on that point, Bruce.
We have a scenario now where the non stickered PCGS coin is assumed to have failed CAC and in the case of the stickered NGC coin, the assumption that the CAC opinion has failed PCGS.
I don't think all of this brings confidence to the market.
How does one safely cross a NGC CAC to a PCGS CAC? If a NGC CAC is successfully crossed, does PCGS give back the NGC label so that the owner can submit it along with the PCGS coin to CAC? If a NGC CAC is not successfully crossed, does PCGS give back the NGC slab intact? And finally, if the NGC is successfully crossed, is NGC notified that their population should be decreased by "one."
Whoever said Mr. Market controls things is 100% correct. it is irrelevant what we think or what is perceived as correct.
The market dictates. As I said, "It is what it is". PCGS/CAC for no good reason is worth more than NGC/CAC
NGC in general is not looked upon fondly except by dealers who get over grades and sell the coins as what looks like
an attractive price.
There is no good reason why all NGC/CAC will not cross. Sometimes it takes many tries. Now that PCGS has kind of
recognized CAC maybe all or more will. I simply do not understand it. CAC coins are mostly nicer and more strictly
graded. Why would PCGS not want to crush NGC and cross all of them?
Most better coins with no sticker have been sent to CAC. Believe it. At least any you see for sale on sites or auctions.
If coins are in collections possibly not but they will be before they get sold. If not the seller is just plain stupid.
It is "assumed" that coins for sale were sent. The truth is irrelevant.
ALL crosses that were CAC will CAC again. How can whoever said they might not be serious.
It seems that DLH has only added certain sets to the CAC registry. Maybe they are the ones he will add coins
to. There is no exact rhyme or reason to what they are buying. I have 14 PR Seated Halves that are all CAC which
are pop 1-2 and upgrades to his number one set. No interest. Seems like a no brainer even at 20% higher than
what is perceived as market. Would give him all the best coins. If I had the best set I would have to buy them.
Either Bruce and or Laura had I think five sets that were all CAC and number one on the PCGS registry.
I had five and have two currently. Do you think this will ever be achieved again? It is a very hard feat with
gradeflation getting more prevalent.
Although PCGS is currently the market leader in coin grading service, PCGS, NGC, and the secondary service CAC obviously need each other for accountability to "getting it right" for the customer. You really shouldn't have one company controlling the entire market.
If you don't understand the reasons, think about ma bell and how that changed a lot by having additional competition.
Yes I agree it is good to have various services for checks and balances. But..................I care, and am always looking out for the consumer. Sadly many people are simply dumb, or do no homework. One comparison is an "appraisal". Most are
toilet paper. The appraiser might state that it is for "insurance purposes". That is somewhat BS these days. Many insurance companies will offer to replace a diamond of the appraisal is out of line or pay what they feel the value it.
I sell diamonds. There are two grading services. and EGL. Here is something about EGL:
Posted online:
You can read the longer breakdown below. In short, EGL vastly (and inconsistently) inflates their quality claims. You may stumble across their certs at many places, and think you’re getting a good deal. After all, it comes with a certificate. In reality, you are likely getting overcharged for an inferior product. It always kills me when people message us after they already purchased thinking they got a great deal only to see that they fell for one of these tricks. I wish they had contacted us
sooner.
Me: There are grading standards. Services that grade for any collectible should have some kind of oversight and be held to grading within reason. I know that this is deviating from the topic but no one seems to care. Laura and a few others do and at times rant about coin doctors, PNG, gradeflation etc. Yes certain items are subjective but to a point. PCGS is acceptable. CAC tells people the top coins for the grade. NGC..........................
Perfection - why are you rambling
about diamonds and EGL on a
Coin Forum and more specififically
On a thread to celebrate an
agreement between PCGS and CAC ?
Perhaps Heather should give you
A spanking ?
Why are you so pompous to state you have more 100% CAC Sets
and it would be difficult for others
to obtain this status ?
I , for one, have at least 7 Sets # 1
that are PCGS and CAC 100% .
Comments
We can stipulate that PCGS CAC is more desirable than NGC CAC for all the reasons mentioned but the reason you can’t arbitrage that (buy NGC CAC coins and cross them) is that PCGS and CAC are not 100% consistent with each other. Now, given that CAC standards are supposedly higher, I imagine the heavy majority of CAC coins would cross at grade but it is not guaranteed. The PCGS CAC vs. NGC CAC premium should reflect the probability that the coin can be crossed minus the cost of doing so.
Well said. And the trick is how to safely cross a NGC CAC to a PCGS CAC? If a NGC CAC is successfully crossed, does PCGS give back the NGC label so that the owner can resubmit it along with the PCGS coin to CAC? If a NGC CAC is not successfully crossed, does PCGS give back the NGC slab intact?
Sure, the majority of CAC Ngc coins freshly stickered by CAC will cross at grade....but you don’t get to buy those very often. The ones you get to buy have already been tried for crossover multiple times. Why would anyone give you a free lunch?
No, I would not, so you and I are in agreement.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The Market is always the Queen!
Another assumption that has brought chaos to the coin market.
Experience...not assumption.
I don't disagree with you on that point, Bruce.
We have a scenario now where the non stickered PCGS coin is assumed to have failed CAC and in the case of the stickered NGC coin, the assumption that the CAC opinion has failed PCGS.
I don't think all of this brings confidence to the market.
Does anybody know the answer to my question:
How does one safely cross a NGC CAC to a PCGS CAC? If a NGC CAC is successfully crossed, does PCGS give back the NGC label so that the owner can submit it along with the PCGS coin to CAC? If a NGC CAC is not successfully crossed, does PCGS give back the NGC slab intact? And finally, if the NGC is successfully crossed, is NGC notified that their population should be decreased by "one."
Good morning people!
I was absent for a few days!
Whoever said Mr. Market controls things is 100% correct. it is irrelevant what we think or what is perceived as correct.
The market dictates. As I said, "It is what it is". PCGS/CAC for no good reason is worth more than NGC/CAC
NGC in general is not looked upon fondly except by dealers who get over grades and sell the coins as what looks like
an attractive price.
There is no good reason why all NGC/CAC will not cross. Sometimes it takes many tries. Now that PCGS has kind of
recognized CAC maybe all or more will. I simply do not understand it. CAC coins are mostly nicer and more strictly
graded. Why would PCGS not want to crush NGC and cross all of them?
Most better coins with no sticker have been sent to CAC. Believe it. At least any you see for sale on sites or auctions.
If coins are in collections possibly not but they will be before they get sold. If not the seller is just plain stupid.
It is "assumed" that coins for sale were sent. The truth is irrelevant.
ALL crosses that were CAC will CAC again. How can whoever said they might not be serious.
It seems that DLH has only added certain sets to the CAC registry. Maybe they are the ones he will add coins
to. There is no exact rhyme or reason to what they are buying. I have 14 PR Seated Halves that are all CAC which
are pop 1-2 and upgrades to his number one set. No interest. Seems like a no brainer even at 20% higher than
what is perceived as market. Would give him all the best coins. If I had the best set I would have to buy them.
Either Bruce and or Laura had I think five sets that were all CAC and number one on the PCGS registry.
I had five and have two currently. Do you think this will ever be achieved again? It is a very hard feat with
gradeflation getting more prevalent.
Smooth move....
as opposed to sticky
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Although PCGS is currently the market leader in coin grading service, PCGS, NGC, and the secondary service CAC obviously need each other for accountability to "getting it right" for the customer. You really shouldn't have one company controlling the entire market.
If you don't understand the reasons, think about ma bell and how that changed a lot by having additional competition.
Yes I agree it is good to have various services for checks and balances. But..................I care, and am always looking out for the consumer. Sadly many people are simply dumb, or do no homework. One comparison is an "appraisal". Most are
toilet paper. The appraiser might state that it is for "insurance purposes". That is somewhat BS these days. Many insurance companies will offer to replace a diamond of the appraisal is out of line or pay what they feel the value it.
I sell diamonds. There are two grading services. and EGL. Here is something about EGL:
Posted online:
You can read the longer breakdown below. In short, EGL vastly (and inconsistently) inflates their quality claims. You may stumble across their certs at many places, and think you’re getting a good deal. After all, it comes with a certificate. In reality, you are likely getting overcharged for an inferior product. It always kills me when people message us after they already purchased thinking they got a great deal only to see that they fell for one of these tricks. I wish they had contacted us
sooner.
Me: There are grading standards. Services that grade for any collectible should have some kind of oversight and be held to grading within reason. I know that this is deviating from the topic but no one seems to care. Laura and a few others do and at times rant about coin doctors, PNG, gradeflation etc. Yes certain items are subjective but to a point. PCGS is acceptable. CAC tells people the top coins for the grade. NGC..........................
Perfection - why are you rambling
about diamonds and EGL on a
Coin Forum and more specififically
On a thread to celebrate an
agreement between PCGS and CAC ?
Perhaps Heather should give you
A spanking ?
Why are you so pompous to state you have more 100% CAC Sets
and it would be difficult for others
to obtain this status ?
I , for one, have at least 7 Sets # 1
that are PCGS and CAC 100% .
It was a companion to NGC
I will try not to ramble. I apologize.
Can you tell me one of your sets? It's difficult. Nice job!
A PCGS CAC coin may be worth more
(dollar wise ) than a NGC CAC coin by current market standards.
But not necessarily a better a coin .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
You could say the same about a PCGS coin vs. a raw coin.
Sure can !
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Not rambling and apology is unnecessary.
Excellent commentary in my opinion. Thanks.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress