@shish said:
Interesting, if I count correctly four members account for 42 posts in this thread. Let's just say they are not CAC lovers. Joining CAC and speaking with JA has made me a better grader, and for that I am very grateful.
I guess if someone sends in their coins and they don’t sticker and they don’t like the results they can look at it two ways. 1) Blame JA/CAC. 2) maybe take a step back and look at their own skills. Most take the easier road and play the blame game and get bitter coin face.
JA has looked at and evaluated more US coins then anybody. Gold especially is his jam. If you want the opinion of the “guy” that’s what you have with CAC. Nothing more. Nothing less. Some value that a lot more then others. The market certainly has sorted it out
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Hello and Happy Thanksgiving to all.
This is Perfection the person who has had more CAC complete sets than anyone that were number one at the PCGS registry. I doubt that many sets will ever achieve this again for reasons I will not go into. At the moment RSD who purchased my set and myself are the only ones to achieve this. Any others?
Currently I still own the top PR Morgan and Seated Dollar sets which are all CAC and number one on the PCGS registry.
In the new CAC registry I have a Bust Half set and a PR Seated Half set. Both are number one now. Time will tell if Mr Link and DLH replace coins with CAC examples needed to become number one. It will be interesting how many they need and if they will choose to purchase and or downgrade.
Moving on. I believe adding the CAC registry is a major game changer. Debating if we like it or not is useless. It is here. There is no doubt that top pop or close, CAC coins will be much more in demand and therefore rise in value, possibly substantially depending on the series.
So what else does will the new CAC registry effect? Only time will tell. Any ideas? This is what we should discuss. For example PCGS could tighten their grading making more coins that could get a CAC sticker.
I have a host of other possibilities but let's see what others think.
Are we going to have a new type of crackout specialist? Crackout specialist, “Gee that PCGS/non-CAC 67 is a mighty fine looking coin. I’m going to crack it out and hopefully it downgrades to 66 and JA will now like it. Or if it doesn’t downgrade maybe I can trick JA with the new number and he’ll now like it”.
Interesting times down the road and CAC coins across the board should all increase in value.
@Perfection , many of us have been in awe of your numismatic accomplishments, and separate from that, the ideas and comments you expressed above should be respected by all. Thanks for sharing, and a Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@skier07 said:
Are we going to have a new type of crackout specialist? Crackout specialist, “Gee that PCGS/non-CAC 67 is a mighty fine looking coin. I’m going to crack it out and hopefully it downgrades to 66 and JA will now like it. Or if it doesn’t downgrade maybe I can trick JA with the new number and he’ll now like it”.
Interesting times down the road and CAC coins across the board should all increase in value.
The "reverse crack out" phenomenon as I call it has been going on for years. Many dealers are downgrading coins intentionally so that they can get the PCGS/CAC combo. In some (many for rarer issues) cases you can make money that way. It is a favorite of many dealers including some that complain about the traditional crack out game.
@Broadstruck said:
And just like that CAC secured their place in the market for another decade.
Is it also only for another decade that PCGS has secured its place in the market? I remember back in 1986 there were a ton of people, both dealers and collectors, who were bashing the concept of third party grading in slabs! Eventually, over time, almost all of them came aboard, just like membership of “The Flat Earth Society” has dropped over time (but not completely, lol).
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Good morning! The downgrade game would be good for the market.
The rampant money driven loose grading that has been going on for years is what started CAC
in the first place. If the price spreads are wide enough downgrading will be huge.
However for the most part it is not YET enough on most coins.
If the demand for CAC coins continues to grow the loose grading crack out business will become less profitable. There will be fewer buyers for the newly graded coins.
Without upgrading perhaps HALF the coin dealers would be gone. It is not easy to make money simply buying and selling coins.
PCGS should consider tripling the grading fees. Yes triple or more,
This would make submissions far more selective.
Why should a dealer get a 2000 upgrade for 100.00? PCGS would also save substantially on expenses if they did this. I believe sports card grading is very expensive.
ALSO and very important is that the middle,of the road items in almost ALL collectibles fields
is,suffering and getting worse. There is massive lack of demand, It is NOT the price.
I sell lots of jewelry. I buy it cheap. It is hard find people to write a check. Ebay and most auctions are difficult due to the fees. Coins are similar. If a dealer wants to sell 100k or coins
there are few to no cash buyers unless the prices are SO low.
@Broadstruck said:
And just like that CAC secured their place in the market for another decade.
Is it also only for another decade that PCGS has secured its place in the market? I remember back in 1986 there were a ton of people, both dealers and collectors, who were bashing the concept of third party grading in slabs! Eventually, over time, almost all of them came aboard, just like membership of “The Flat Earth Society” has dropped over time (but not completely, lol).
You might need to lay off the Wine a bit Steven as I'm not sure how you read me stating anything about PCGS?
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
Late to the show, will be posting my CAC bust quarters as a separate set now. I think this is a great addition to the Registry sets and thanks go to PCGS for their collaborative approach with CAC. For those who still don't understand why coins with CAC stickers on average are better than those that don't sticker, thems folks will be able to compare sets at least for images. True comparison of course will only come with in hand examination but still will be educational.
@spacehayduke said:
Late to the show, will be posting my CAC bust quarters as a separate set now. I think this is a great addition to the Registry sets and thanks go to PCGS for their collaborative approach with CAC. For those who still don't understand why coins with CAC stickers on average are better than those that don't sticker, thems folks will be able to compare sets at least for images. True comparison of course will only come with in hand examination but still will be educational.
Best, SH
i think it's "better to own" rather than "better."
@Broadstruck said:
And just like that CAC secured their place in the market for another decade.
Is it also only for another decade that PCGS has secured its place in the market? I remember back in 1986 there were a ton of people, both dealers and collectors, who were bashing the concept of third party grading in slabs! Eventually, over time, almost all of them came aboard, just like membership of “The Flat Earth Society” has dropped over time (but not completely, lol).
You might need to lay off the Wine a bit Steven as I'm not sure how you read me stating anything about PCGS?
I don’t think he said or even implied that you said anything about PCGS. But rather, he was providing an analogy.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Perfection said:
Good morning! The downgrade game would be good for the market.
The rampant money driven loose grading that has been going on for years is what started CAC
in the first place. If the price spreads are wide enough downgrading will be huge.
However for the most part it is not YET enough on most coins.
If the demand for CAC coins continues to grow the loose grading crack out business will become less profitable. There will be fewer buyers for the newly graded coins.
Without upgrading perhaps HALF the coin dealers would be gone. It is not easy to make money simply buying and selling coins.
PCGS should consider tripling the grading fees. Yes triple or more,
This would make submissions far more selective.
R PCGS would also save substantially on expenses if they did this. I believe sports card grading is very expensive.
ALSO and very important is that the middle,of the road items in almost ALL collectibles fields
is,suffering and getting worse. There is massive lack of demand, It is NOT the price.
I sell lots of jewelry. I buy it cheap. It is hard find people to write a check. Ebay and most auctions are difficult due to the fees. Coins are similar. If a dealer wants to sell 100k or coins
there are few to no cash buyers unless the prices are SO low.
You asked “ Why should a dealer get a 2000 upgrade for 100.00?”. It shouldn’t matter if the submitter is a dealer or a collector. And the potential added value of an upgrade shouldn't be tied to the grading fee in any way. If the coin deserves an upgrade, it should receive it, regardless of the grading tier or fee.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Broadstruck said:
And just like that CAC secured their place in the market for another decade.
Is it also only for another decade that PCGS has secured its place in the market? I remember back in 1986 there were a ton of people, both dealers and collectors, who were bashing the concept of third party grading in slabs! Eventually, over time, almost all of them came aboard, just like membership of “The Flat Earth Society” has dropped over time (but not completely, lol).
You might need to lay off the Wine a bit Steven as I'm not sure how you read me stating anything about PCGS?
Just to politely clarify, I was addressing your comment about CAC securing their place in the market for another decade. I was a bit surprised you limited it to an estimate of just another decade, so I then asked if you thought PCGS was secure in the market only for another decade. Yes, my guess is you feel PCGS will indeed be with our hobby for longer, so as @MFeld clarified, I was making an analogy.
All is good, and enjoy the holiday weekend. 😃
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Broadstruck said:
And just like that CAC secured their place in the market for another decade.
Is it also only for another decade that PCGS has secured its place in the market? I remember back in 1986 there were a ton of people, both dealers and collectors, who were bashing the concept of third party grading in slabs! Eventually, over time, almost all of them came aboard, just like membership of “The Flat Earth Society” has dropped over time (but not completely, lol).
You might need to lay off the Wine a bit Steven as I'm not sure how you read me stating anything about PCGS?
Just to politely clarify, I was addressing your comment about CAC securing their place in the market for another decade. I was a bit surprised you limited it to an estimate of just another decade, so I then asked if you thought PCGS was secure in the market only for another decade. Yes, my guess is you feel PCGS will indeed be with our hobby for longer, so as @MFeld clarified, I was making an analogy.
All is good, and enjoy the holiday weekend. 😃
Okay now understood... Guess I was tripping on tryptophan earlier while eating a turkey sandwich
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
Trade dollar set - all CAC
Seated dollar set - all CAC
Early dollar set - not all CAC
18th century type set no gold - all CAC
18th century type set with gold - all CAC
First, i did not mean dealers relating to upgrades.
Anyone.
Next the grading events were created for upgrades.
PCGS does charge a fee based on the coin value. I say it should be much more IF that increased revenue will lower the total number of marginal upgrades.
Lastly this forum is about adding cac to the registry so the posts do not need to be about collecting.
Finally I would bet that the cac pops are off by perhaps twenty per cent.
So many are cracked. Many tags are not submitted to cac so how can they be right.
If the price spread widens it will no longer make sense to crack many coins unless the price spread is high.
@Perfection said:
Good morning! The downgrade game would be good for the market.
This has gone beyond stupid. It's no longer about collecting.
How about a zero fee holder swap?
I have 2 coins, one is a 65+ and the other is a 65.
They CLEARLY need to swap holders.
It would be PCGS guarantee exempt and grading credibility would be improved.
BTW...There are so many dealers on this site that I find %33 of conversations are not about collecting.
Perfection, if you'd bet that the CAC pops are off by perhaps 20%, what are your thoughts on the PCGS pops? They are much larger and much older therefore it seems logical that the error rate would be significantly higher.
@Perfection said:
Good morning! The downgrade game would be good for the market.
This has gone beyond stupid. It's no longer about collecting.
How about a zero fee holder swap?
I have 2 coins, one is a 65+ and the other is a 65.
They CLEARLY need to swap holders.
It would be PCGS guarantee exempt and grading credibility would be improved.
BTW...There are so many dealers on this site that I find %33 of conversations are not about collecting.
While there are some full-time dealers on the site and some retired dealers, there are a whole bunch of part-time dealer-collectors. The fact is that very few collectors are all about collecting, they are too concerned with the price aspect.
Besides, what constitutes being "about collecting"? I find 40-50% of threads being about ego not collecting. So, if you don't like the thread, don't read it. That said, your "collectors" are prone to start threads as click bait. How hard is it to just be clear in the thread title what the thread is about? "Oh my god" as a thread title should be eligible for immediate deletion by the mods. "I can't believe this", "Oh the humanity", "Finally landed the white whale" and the like are all just click bait by collectors trying to get their thread noticed.
@Perfection said:
Good morning! The downgrade game would be good for the market.
This has gone beyond stupid. It's no longer about collecting.
How about a zero fee holder swap?
I have 2 coins, one is a 65+ and the other is a 65.
They CLEARLY need to swap holders.
And the cost to PCGS is what? The benefit is what, exactly?
It's always easy to spend other people's money. Doing a holder swap is not cheaper to PCGS than getting a raw coin into a holder. In fact, it is probably more expensive given that 2 coins need to be examined and 2 coins possibly need to be holdered.
Good morning,
Why is the grade deflation silly? It is simply numbers and demand.
If a 66 CAC is worth close to a 67 PCGS it is a downgrade potential.
However the spreads do not allow this for the most part. I believe they will more so in time.
Also now that there is a Cac registry it will 100% happen more as competitive well off people do not care if a 67 non cac is worth more when they need it as a 66CAC. for their set.
This is very similar to NGC. Plenty are downgraded by one grade to get into a pcgs
holder. Everyone is aware that NGC grades are very loose putting it nicely.
The business is so sad. We all know the larger dealers who upgrade pcgs into NGC
and then sell the coin form what looks like a very good price.
No it is not buyer beware. The average collector is not aware of what goes on.
What other business works like this?
About PCGS pops. Yes I believe they are off in many areas. The registry scoring is also outdated and simply wrong based,on the pops. I wrote about ms67 Barber halves as a good example.
I could help fix it but they are not interested. Scoring has to be based on pops.
So what happens when crack out dealer x, sends in a coin eight times? (raw)
Does pcgs not increase the pops based on who the submitter is? Perhaps.
Does the pop go up by eight and then down by eight three months later if x mails in
a basket of coin tags? If x does not submit tags the pop is 8 higher. I don't think so.
Therefore pcgs is doing something to try to be accurate.
I really so not know what. On rarer coins sometimes you see pop 3. However over 20 years
there are sales records for two. Is there really three. Maybe not.
When a pop 1 becomes a pop 2. is it the pop 1, or is it the grade lower that has been upgraded?
Was the pop from the grade lower coin reduced. I am sure pcgs does its best to try and keep
things accurate but. they are at the mercy of crack out dealers.
Then there is CAC where I believe many of the better pops are off.
Does crack out dealer x, want CAC. to know that the 50 coins they just submitted were all cac
crack outs. Many times not. Common sense. it must for lack of want to use stronger words,
"bother" JA that certain people make a good living cracking CAC coins.
We treat this as second nature but iit is sad and a joke. If you told people who know zero about coins what goes on they were be amazed .
Sorry for ranting but technology exists to finger print a coin, That would end the game, and millions of profits to many, many people. So it can't happen.
Lets face it there is always a margin of error with many things. It is also common sense.
Sadly more and more very nice CAC coins get cracked because they have the highest chance
of upgrading. Perhaps thousands of them. When there is no upgrade and sent back to
CAC to get the sticker back isn't it again common sense to estimate that 20% of the old tags did not get sent to CAC? These things are not my opinions but human nature and what happens.
Lastly the new registry is wonderful. If enough people demand cac coins there will less
incentive to upgrade.
@shish said:
Perfection, if you'd bet that the CAC pops are off by perhaps 20%, what are your thoughts on the PCGS pops? They are much larger and much older therefore it seems logical that the error rate would be significantly higher.
I think that CAC populations may have benefited from the association. CAC populations for several of the issues I track declined in numbers recently. The PCGS database likely allowed CAC to revise their pops to eliminate no-longer-valid certification numbers.
@BBN said:
So are we on our way to treating non stickered slabs as if they're raw? Like PCGS grading can't be trusted?
As @jmlanzaf correctly says, absolutely not. However, the reason for our current two-tier market between slabs without a CAC, and those that merit and have a CAC is not that they're treated as raw, but are treated as follows:
1. They may be "C" coins, at the lower end of the grade.
2. They may have surface issues of one type or another.
3. It's possible they may not have been submitted to CAC.
On this third point though, If I'm looking at a coin that's above a certain value (I'll leave that amount out to try to minimize going off topic), and if there's clearly a pricing differential in that grade between those with a CAC and those without, I ask myself, "Why would the owner selling that coin not pay just $15 to try to get a CAC? We can each reach our own conclusions, but my conclusion for coins above a certain value without a CAC is that they were submitted and failed to merit one. Just my opinion for my own conclusion.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Perfection said:
Lastly the new registry is wonderful. If enough people demand cac coins there will less
incentive to upgrade.
I agree with just about everything in that long post.
I really shouldn't even be involved in these CAC threads except I just can't figure out what is so hard about buying a coin you like regardless of who else likes it.
So far as money goes, I have more than enough money to buy beans, I just think they are less interesting than + coins.
I'm on this site because I think PCGS does a better job of grading than CAC.
(my series at least)
I hate to see them be influenced by what I consider boring looking saints.
@winesteven said:
and if there's clearly a pricing differential in that grade between those with a CAC and those without, I ask myself, "Why would the owner selling that coin not pay just $15 to try to get a CAC? We can each reach our own conclusions, but my conclusion for coins above a certain value without a CAC is that they were submitted and failed to merit one. Just my opinion for my own conclusion.
Yes we can each reach our own conclusions..... without stickers and even without PCGS. That's what a collector should do.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
ReadyFireAim said
I’m on this site because I think PCGS does a better job of grading coins than CAC
PCGS grades coins
CAC does not grade coins. They only
approve already graded coins.
@Perfection said:
Good morning,
Why is the grade deflation silly? It is simply numbers and demand.
If a 66 CAC is worth close to a 67 PCGS it is a downgrade potential.
However the spreads do not allow this for the most part. I believe they will more so in time.
Also now that there is a Cac registry it will 100% happen more as competitive well off people do not care if a 67 non cac is worth more when they need it as a 66CAC. for their set.
This is very similar to NGC. Plenty are downgraded by one grade to get into a pcgs
holder. Everyone is aware that NGC grades are very loose putting it nicely.
The business is so sad. We all know the larger dealers who upgrade pcgs into NGC
and then sell the coin form what looks like a very good price.
No it is not buyer beware. The average collector is not aware of what goes on.
What other business works like this?
About PCGS pops. Yes I believe they are off in many areas. The registry scoring is also outdated and simply wrong based,on the pops. I wrote about ms67 Barber halves as a good example.
I could help fix it but they are not interested. Scoring has to be based on pops.
So what happens when crack out dealer x, sends in a coin eight times? (raw)
Does pcgs not increase the pops based on who the submitter is? Perhaps.
Does the pop go up by eight and then down by eight three months later if x mails in
a basket of coin tags? If x does not submit tags the pop is 8 higher. I don't think so.
Therefore pcgs is doing something to try to be accurate.
I really so not know what. On rarer coins sometimes you see pop 3. However over 20 years
there are sales records for two. Is there really three. Maybe not.
When a pop 1 becomes a pop 2. is it the pop 1, or is it the grade lower that has been upgraded?
Was the pop from the grade lower coin reduced. I am sure pcgs does its best to try and keep
things accurate but. they are at the mercy of crack out dealers.
Then there is CAC where I believe many of the better pops are off.
Does crack out dealer x, want CAC. to know that the 50 coins they just submitted were all cac
crack outs. Many times not. Common sense. it must for lack of want to use stronger words,
"bother" JA that certain people make a good living cracking CAC coins.
We treat this as second nature but iit is sad and a joke. If you told people who know zero about coins what goes on they were be amazed .
Sorry for ranting but technology exists to finger print a coin, That would end the game, and millions of profits to many, many people. So it can't happen.
Lets face it there is always a margin of error with many things. It is also common sense.
Sadly more and more very nice CAC coins get cracked because they have the highest chance
of upgrading. Perhaps thousands of them. When there is no upgrade and sent back to
CAC to get the sticker back isn't it again common sense to estimate that 20% of the old tags did not get sent to CAC? These things are not my opinions but human nature and what happens.
Lastly the new registry is wonderful. If enough people demand cac coins there will less
incentive to upgrade.
What?
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
@BryceM said:
Hmmmmm. I don't like it. To be clear, I'm a fan of both brands. All of my collection is PCGS and the majority of my collection sports green and gold stickers, but I don't think I have a single registry set (now or ever) that is/was exclusively stickered. Most of my series are type sets that contain coins that they won't evaluate (Jeff Nickels, Rosies, Kennedys, etc). I also have a number of coins that are properly graded, but not "worthy" for a variety of reasons. It also dilutes the importance of the existing registry categories tremendously.
It won't do anything positive for coins that don't have a sticker. I guess all of these are just dreck now. Two of the three were recommended to me by a former CAC grader, but ultimately denied the grace of a sticker:
@BryceM who is a former cac grader? All the graders there are the same ones that have been there since the beginning???
99% of better coins have undoubtedly been to CAC. To think otherwise is foolish.
It really does not matter what people think. "It is what it is". CAC coins are presumed to have higher standards and therefore for the most part trade for more money.
This is somewhat similar to NGC and PCGS. NGC has a much lower standard. Most people. know and accept this. I have no facts but if I were to guess there are a minimum of ten PCGS/CAC coins to every NGC/CAC Coin. Perhaps more, many more.
Even though CAC looks at the coin and not PCGS OR NGC, the NGC CAC coins trade for less, many times considerably less. For lack of better words this is stupid. But as before "it is what it is. A 250k pr gold proof 20.00 is certainly worth perhaps 15% more as a PCGS.
Almost everyone tries to cross NGC/CAC coins. If PCGS wanted to do what is right why will they not cross many of these coins? Comments welcome. If they did this most NGC CAC coins would no longer exist. That would be interesting to explain to a non coin person.
I can only go so far on these boards. What is the goal of owning Non CAC NGC Coins. Others can answer.
"Buy the coin and not the holder" sounds correct but is pretty much BS.
When sharp people and collectors do this they are thinking to themselves, "what can this coin become. So if the beautiful 66 in an ANACS holder can get into a PCGS/CAC 64+ and the price is acceptable, sure buy it. For the most part when you sell your coins maximum value will be obtained from PCGS CAC coins ..
How many plus coins do not CAC and why? Others can comment. One would think that it would be very good for PCGS if most plus coins would pass CAC. It seems to me but I welcome comments that in the last two years MANY more pluses have been given out than upgrades.
It would be interesting if PCGS shared how many pluses are given out to coins in holders.
Don't laugh. Maybe PCGS should offer a service that sends newly graded coins to CAC for the submitter. Why not? Charge x per coin. Lots of time and money would be saved by many people.
We should revisit the new registry a year from now and see what has changed in the market.
@Perfection , just a little numerical fine-tuning on two of your points using publicly available data.
On your point #2 above, while not definitive, since only JA would potentially have the most accurate data, lots posted in auctions provides the following data, which is usually surprisingly consistent: I regularly use filters in auctions of three companies - Heritage, Great Collections, and DLRC. In all three, if you filter first for only lots with CAC stickers, and then of those, lots graded by PCGS, on average about 85 out of 100 lots that have CAC stickers have been graded by PCGS. So while this methodology is not perfect, it rather consistently has a rate of about 5.7 CAC’d PCGS coins for every CAC’d NGC coin (85 or so PCGS CAC’d coins for every 15 or so NGC CAC’d coins).
On your point #6 above, while I’m not really sure I understand your meaning at the end, be aware that PCGS provides detailed data over the most recent 30 days, as well as over the past 12 months as to how many coins they have graded in total, and of those, how many were pluses. It seems to regularly hover around 2% - 2.5% or so of the coins they grade that get pluses. However, the “true” percentage meriting a plus is really a lot higher, since the total coins graded include modern/current/new coins, which typically get a 69 or 70, and coins with those grades are ineligible to get a plus. So I’m not disagreeing with you, but just providing some “deeper” information.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and enjoy the rest of the holiday weekend.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
So you state the out of 100 CAC coins 85 are PCGS. 85%. I bet it is higher. I would bet that in the last two years it is 90% or more. Keep in mind that every cross changes this percentage.
So if a coin crosses it is one more PCGS but you need to deduct one from the NGC column.
Regarding 6. If someone took the time to look at how many total pluses there were two years ago and how many there are now, I believe the number is substantial. The total number of coins graded is not relevant. It seems that there are less full point upgrades being given out and instead pluses. Crack out people send in tens of thousands of coins a month. At some point it should not be easy to get upgrades unless grade inflation has worsened further.
Lets look at how a CAC sticker is perceived. I will not give my opinion.
If a coin has a CAC sticker.
1. The coin without one has the wrong grade on the holder.
2. The coin is approved as the grade on the holder.
3. The coin is the grade on the holder but it in the top 15% or so of all coins of this grade.
i use 15% because regardless of other opinions I believe around 15% of all coins have a CAC sticker at most.
Lastly, and for the most part but not always, why would people not want to own mostly what
is perceived as the nicest coins? It does not matter if they all are. Most buyers cannot grade and never actually see the coin they are buying or bidding on at auction. Dealers get very few returns and auctions. it is as is. Yes the price is more but you should get more when you sell.
There are what seem to be bargains all the time with CAC coins. Right now Barbers and Seated are examples. Will they rise? Don't know but they appear cheap.
Comments
I guess if someone sends in their coins and they don’t sticker and they don’t like the results they can look at it two ways. 1) Blame JA/CAC. 2) maybe take a step back and look at their own skills. Most take the easier road and play the blame game and get bitter coin face.
JA has looked at and evaluated more US coins then anybody. Gold especially is his jam. If you want the opinion of the “guy” that’s what you have with CAC. Nothing more. Nothing less. Some value that a lot more then others. The market certainly has sorted it out
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Chaos in grading land as the market for rare coins continues to take on water.
Hello and Happy Thanksgiving to all.
This is Perfection the person who has had more CAC complete sets than anyone that were number one at the PCGS registry. I doubt that many sets will ever achieve this again for reasons I will not go into. At the moment RSD who purchased my set and myself are the only ones to achieve this. Any others?
Currently I still own the top PR Morgan and Seated Dollar sets which are all CAC and number one on the PCGS registry.
In the new CAC registry I have a Bust Half set and a PR Seated Half set. Both are number one now. Time will tell if Mr Link and DLH replace coins with CAC examples needed to become number one. It will be interesting how many they need and if they will choose to purchase and or downgrade.
Moving on. I believe adding the CAC registry is a major game changer. Debating if we like it or not is useless. It is here. There is no doubt that top pop or close, CAC coins will be much more in demand and therefore rise in value, possibly substantially depending on the series.
So what else does will the new CAC registry effect? Only time will tell. Any ideas? This is what we should discuss. For example PCGS could tighten their grading making more coins that could get a CAC sticker.
I have a host of other possibilities but let's see what others think.
Are we going to have a new type of crackout specialist? Crackout specialist, “Gee that PCGS/non-CAC 67 is a mighty fine looking coin. I’m going to crack it out and hopefully it downgrades to 66 and JA will now like it. Or if it doesn’t downgrade maybe I can trick JA with the new number and he’ll now like it”.
Interesting times down the road and CAC coins across the board should all increase in value.
@Perfection , many of us have been in awe of your numismatic accomplishments, and separate from that, the ideas and comments you expressed above should be respected by all. Thanks for sharing, and a Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
The "reverse crack out" phenomenon as I call it has been going on for years. Many dealers are downgrading coins intentionally so that they can get the PCGS/CAC combo. In some (many for rarer issues) cases you can make money that way. It is a favorite of many dealers including some that complain about the traditional crack out game.
And just like that CAC secured their place in the market for another decade.
Is it also only for another decade that PCGS has secured its place in the market? I remember back in 1986 there were a ton of people, both dealers and collectors, who were bashing the concept of third party grading in slabs! Eventually, over time, almost all of them came aboard, just like membership of “The Flat Earth Society” has dropped over time (but not completely, lol).
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Good morning! The downgrade game would be good for the market.
The rampant money driven loose grading that has been going on for years is what started CAC
in the first place. If the price spreads are wide enough downgrading will be huge.
However for the most part it is not YET enough on most coins.
If the demand for CAC coins continues to grow the loose grading crack out business will become less profitable. There will be fewer buyers for the newly graded coins.
Without upgrading perhaps HALF the coin dealers would be gone. It is not easy to make money simply buying and selling coins.
PCGS should consider tripling the grading fees. Yes triple or more,
This would make submissions far more selective.
Why should a dealer get a 2000 upgrade for 100.00? PCGS would also save substantially on expenses if they did this. I believe sports card grading is very expensive.
ALSO and very important is that the middle,of the road items in almost ALL collectibles fields
is,suffering and getting worse. There is massive lack of demand, It is NOT the price.
I sell lots of jewelry. I buy it cheap. It is hard find people to write a check. Ebay and most auctions are difficult due to the fees. Coins are similar. If a dealer wants to sell 100k or coins
there are few to no cash buyers unless the prices are SO low.
LOL!!!
You might need to lay off the Wine a bit Steven as I'm not sure how you read me stating anything about PCGS?
Collect what you like. Then drink.
Late to the show, will be posting my CAC bust quarters as a separate set now. I think this is a great addition to the Registry sets and thanks go to PCGS for their collaborative approach with CAC. For those who still don't understand why coins with CAC stickers on average are better than those that don't sticker, thems folks will be able to compare sets at least for images. True comparison of course will only come with in hand examination but still will be educational.
Best, SH
i think it's "better to own" rather than "better."
I don’t think he said or even implied that you said anything about PCGS. But rather, he was providing an analogy.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
R PCGS would also save substantially on expenses if they did this. I believe sports card grading is very expensive.
You asked “ Why should a dealer get a 2000 upgrade for 100.00?”. It shouldn’t matter if the submitter is a dealer or a collector. And the potential added value of an upgrade shouldn't be tied to the grading fee in any way. If the coin deserves an upgrade, it should receive it, regardless of the grading tier or fee.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Just to politely clarify, I was addressing your comment about CAC securing their place in the market for another decade. I was a bit surprised you limited it to an estimate of just another decade, so I then asked if you thought PCGS was secure in the market only for another decade. Yes, my guess is you feel PCGS will indeed be with our hobby for longer, so as @MFeld clarified, I was making an analogy.
All is good, and enjoy the holiday weekend. 😃
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Okay now understood... Guess I was tripping on tryptophan earlier while eating a turkey sandwich
Trade dollar set - all CAC
Seated dollar set - all CAC
Early dollar set - not all CAC
18th century type set no gold - all CAC
18th century type set with gold - all CAC
Hope you'll be able to sleep owning that set now?
This has gone beyond stupid. It's no longer about collecting.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Why do others posts keep getting deleted? Not mine. Though it might.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Good question Nic
First, i did not mean dealers relating to upgrades.
Anyone.
Next the grading events were created for upgrades.
PCGS does charge a fee based on the coin value. I say it should be much more IF that increased revenue will lower the total number of marginal upgrades.
Lastly this forum is about adding cac to the registry so the posts do not need to be about collecting.
Finally I would bet that the cac pops are off by perhaps twenty per cent.
So many are cracked. Many tags are not submitted to cac so how can they be right.
If the price spread widens it will no longer make sense to crack many coins unless the price spread is high.
How about a zero fee holder swap?
I have 2 coins, one is a 65+ and the other is a 65.
They CLEARLY need to swap holders.
It would be PCGS guarantee exempt and grading credibility would be improved.
BTW...There are so many dealers on this site that I find %33 of conversations are not about collecting.
My Saint Set
Now that this has sunk in...
I guess I might try to do a old holder PCGS set that will completely gold CAC?
Why not.....shoot for the moon and hit the stars.
The grade-deflation thing is silly. though. JMHO.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Perfection, if you'd bet that the CAC pops are off by perhaps 20%, what are your thoughts on the PCGS pops? They are much larger and much older therefore it seems logical that the error rate would be significantly higher.
To be fair, it's never been just about collecting as long as price has been an issue.
While there are some full-time dealers on the site and some retired dealers, there are a whole bunch of part-time dealer-collectors. The fact is that very few collectors are all about collecting, they are too concerned with the price aspect.
Besides, what constitutes being "about collecting"? I find 40-50% of threads being about ego not collecting. So, if you don't like the thread, don't read it. That said, your "collectors" are prone to start threads as click bait. How hard is it to just be clear in the thread title what the thread is about? "Oh my god" as a thread title should be eligible for immediate deletion by the mods. "I can't believe this", "Oh the humanity", "Finally landed the white whale" and the like are all just click bait by collectors trying to get their thread noticed.
And the cost to PCGS is what? The benefit is what, exactly?
It's always easy to spend other people's money. Doing a holder swap is not cheaper to PCGS than getting a raw coin into a holder. In fact, it is probably more expensive given that 2 coins need to be examined and 2 coins possibly need to be holdered.
Good morning,
Why is the grade deflation silly? It is simply numbers and demand.
If a 66 CAC is worth close to a 67 PCGS it is a downgrade potential.
However the spreads do not allow this for the most part. I believe they will more so in time.
Also now that there is a Cac registry it will 100% happen more as competitive well off people do not care if a 67 non cac is worth more when they need it as a 66CAC. for their set.
This is very similar to NGC. Plenty are downgraded by one grade to get into a pcgs
holder. Everyone is aware that NGC grades are very loose putting it nicely.
The business is so sad. We all know the larger dealers who upgrade pcgs into NGC
and then sell the coin form what looks like a very good price.
No it is not buyer beware. The average collector is not aware of what goes on.
What other business works like this?
About PCGS pops. Yes I believe they are off in many areas. The registry scoring is also outdated and simply wrong based,on the pops. I wrote about ms67 Barber halves as a good example.
I could help fix it but they are not interested. Scoring has to be based on pops.
So what happens when crack out dealer x, sends in a coin eight times? (raw)
Does pcgs not increase the pops based on who the submitter is? Perhaps.
Does the pop go up by eight and then down by eight three months later if x mails in
a basket of coin tags? If x does not submit tags the pop is 8 higher. I don't think so.
Therefore pcgs is doing something to try to be accurate.
I really so not know what. On rarer coins sometimes you see pop 3. However over 20 years
there are sales records for two. Is there really three. Maybe not.
When a pop 1 becomes a pop 2. is it the pop 1, or is it the grade lower that has been upgraded?
Was the pop from the grade lower coin reduced. I am sure pcgs does its best to try and keep
things accurate but. they are at the mercy of crack out dealers.
Then there is CAC where I believe many of the better pops are off.
Does crack out dealer x, want CAC. to know that the 50 coins they just submitted were all cac
crack outs. Many times not. Common sense. it must for lack of want to use stronger words,
"bother" JA that certain people make a good living cracking CAC coins.
We treat this as second nature but iit is sad and a joke. If you told people who know zero about coins what goes on they were be amazed .
Sorry for ranting but technology exists to finger print a coin, That would end the game, and millions of profits to many, many people. So it can't happen.
Lets face it there is always a margin of error with many things. It is also common sense.
Sadly more and more very nice CAC coins get cracked because they have the highest chance
of upgrading. Perhaps thousands of them. When there is no upgrade and sent back to
CAC to get the sticker back isn't it again common sense to estimate that 20% of the old tags did not get sent to CAC? These things are not my opinions but human nature and what happens.
Lastly the new registry is wonderful. If enough people demand cac coins there will less
incentive to upgrade.
@Perfection I space my sentences too...
Yet when reading something as lengthy as you just posted felt I was losing seconds of life between scrolling to the next.
This way there be dragons.
I think that CAC populations may have benefited from the association. CAC populations for several of the issues I track declined in numbers recently. The PCGS database likely allowed CAC to revise their pops to eliminate no-longer-valid certification numbers.
Great point, one of the many benefits of collaboration. 👍
So are we on our way to treating non stickered slabs as if they're raw? Like PCGS grading can't be trusted?
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
Absolutely not.
Some have been doing this already.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
As @jmlanzaf correctly says, absolutely not. However, the reason for our current two-tier market between slabs without a CAC, and those that merit and have a CAC is not that they're treated as raw, but are treated as follows:
1. They may be "C" coins, at the lower end of the grade.
2. They may have surface issues of one type or another.
3. It's possible they may not have been submitted to CAC.
On this third point though, If I'm looking at a coin that's above a certain value (I'll leave that amount out to try to minimize going off topic), and if there's clearly a pricing differential in that grade between those with a CAC and those without, I ask myself, "Why would the owner selling that coin not pay just $15 to try to get a CAC? We can each reach our own conclusions, but my conclusion for coins above a certain value without a CAC is that they were submitted and failed to merit one. Just my opinion for my own conclusion.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
How long will it be before someone starts slabbing "CAC'd" slabs to authenticate that the sticker is real?
Positive BST Transactions (buyers and sellers): wondercoin, blu62vette, BAJJERFAN, privatecoin, blu62vette, AlanLastufka, privatecoin
#1 1951 Bowman Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#2 1980 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
#8 (and climbing) 1972 Topps Los Angeles Rams Team Set
I agree with just about everything in that long post.
I really shouldn't even be involved in these CAC threads except I just can't figure out what is so hard about buying a coin you like regardless of who else likes it.
So far as money goes, I have more than enough money to buy beans, I just think they are less interesting than + coins.
I'm on this site because I think PCGS does a better job of grading than CAC.
(my series at least)
I hate to see them be influenced by what I consider boring looking saints.
My Saint Set
Yes we can each reach our own conclusions..... without stickers and even without PCGS. That's what a collector should do.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
ReadyFireAim said
I’m on this site because I think PCGS does a better job of grading coins than CAC
PCGS grades coins
CAC does not grade coins. They only
approve already graded coins.
What?
@BryceM who is a former cac grader? All the graders there are the same ones that have been there since the beginning???
Good evening
99% of better coins have undoubtedly been to CAC. To think otherwise is foolish.
It really does not matter what people think. "It is what it is". CAC coins are presumed to have higher standards and therefore for the most part trade for more money.
This is somewhat similar to NGC and PCGS. NGC has a much lower standard. Most people. know and accept this. I have no facts but if I were to guess there are a minimum of ten PCGS/CAC coins to every NGC/CAC Coin. Perhaps more, many more.
Even though CAC looks at the coin and not PCGS OR NGC, the NGC CAC coins trade for less, many times considerably less. For lack of better words this is stupid. But as before "it is what it is. A 250k pr gold proof 20.00 is certainly worth perhaps 15% more as a PCGS.
Almost everyone tries to cross NGC/CAC coins. If PCGS wanted to do what is right why will they not cross many of these coins? Comments welcome. If they did this most NGC CAC coins would no longer exist. That would be interesting to explain to a non coin person.
I can only go so far on these boards. What is the goal of owning Non CAC NGC Coins. Others can answer.
"Buy the coin and not the holder" sounds correct but is pretty much BS.
When sharp people and collectors do this they are thinking to themselves, "what can this coin become. So if the beautiful 66 in an ANACS holder can get into a PCGS/CAC 64+ and the price is acceptable, sure buy it. For the most part when you sell your coins maximum value will be obtained from PCGS CAC coins ..
How many plus coins do not CAC and why? Others can comment. One would think that it would be very good for PCGS if most plus coins would pass CAC. It seems to me but I welcome comments that in the last two years MANY more pluses have been given out than upgrades.
It would be interesting if PCGS shared how many pluses are given out to coins in holders.
Don't laugh. Maybe PCGS should offer a service that sends newly graded coins to CAC for the submitter. Why not? Charge x per coin. Lots of time and money would be saved by many people.
We should revisit the new registry a year from now and see what has changed in the market.
@Perfection , just a little numerical fine-tuning on two of your points using publicly available data.
On your point #2 above, while not definitive, since only JA would potentially have the most accurate data, lots posted in auctions provides the following data, which is usually surprisingly consistent: I regularly use filters in auctions of three companies - Heritage, Great Collections, and DLRC. In all three, if you filter first for only lots with CAC stickers, and then of those, lots graded by PCGS, on average about 85 out of 100 lots that have CAC stickers have been graded by PCGS. So while this methodology is not perfect, it rather consistently has a rate of about 5.7 CAC’d PCGS coins for every CAC’d NGC coin (85 or so PCGS CAC’d coins for every 15 or so NGC CAC’d coins).
On your point #6 above, while I’m not really sure I understand your meaning at the end, be aware that PCGS provides detailed data over the most recent 30 days, as well as over the past 12 months as to how many coins they have graded in total, and of those, how many were pluses. It seems to regularly hover around 2% - 2.5% or so of the coins they grade that get pluses. However, the “true” percentage meriting a plus is really a lot higher, since the total coins graded include modern/current/new coins, which typically get a 69 or 70, and coins with those grades are ineligible to get a plus. So I’m not disagreeing with you, but just providing some “deeper” information.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and enjoy the rest of the holiday weekend.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Thanks for fhe input!
So you state the out of 100 CAC coins 85 are PCGS. 85%. I bet it is higher. I would bet that in the last two years it is 90% or more. Keep in mind that every cross changes this percentage.
So if a coin crosses it is one more PCGS but you need to deduct one from the NGC column.
Regarding 6. If someone took the time to look at how many total pluses there were two years ago and how many there are now, I believe the number is substantial. The total number of coins graded is not relevant. It seems that there are less full point upgrades being given out and instead pluses. Crack out people send in tens of thousands of coins a month. At some point it should not be easy to get upgrades unless grade inflation has worsened further.
Lets look at how a CAC sticker is perceived. I will not give my opinion.
If a coin has a CAC sticker.
1. The coin without one has the wrong grade on the holder.
2. The coin is approved as the grade on the holder.
3. The coin is the grade on the holder but it in the top 15% or so of all coins of this grade.
i use 15% because regardless of other opinions I believe around 15% of all coins have a CAC sticker at most.
Lastly, and for the most part but not always, why would people not want to own mostly what
is perceived as the nicest coins? It does not matter if they all are. Most buyers cannot grade and never actually see the coin they are buying or bidding on at auction. Dealers get very few returns and auctions. it is as is. Yes the price is more but you should get more when you sell.
There are what seem to be bargains all the time with CAC coins. Right now Barbers and Seated are examples. Will they rise? Don't know but they appear cheap.