Is this PMD or an error? $2 1/2 Indian
jwitten
Posts: 5,220 ✭✭✭✭✭
And if an error, what is it? Strike though? Lamination error?
3
jwitten
Posts: 5,220 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
ERROR!
How did you get that one? It could not have been cheap.
LOL, I bet you got it at melt for some uninformed dealer right?
What kind of error? Struck through? Poorly mixed alloy? Please elaborate.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It looks like a strike through... not sure what else it could be....... Hard to say from the picture. Cheers, RickO
I would be suspicious that it is the remnant of a rubber band, but really dont know.
Put a rubber band around a gold coin and see what happens after a month, Then put it in an oven with just the pilot light heat. Let us know what it looks like?
Is it answered? I saw the pic and while not an expert, it looks more like a grease/rubber band mark vs a strike through.
Latin American Collection
I don't think it was ever answered as to what kind of error or even it is an error. The OP took down his pic so I'm guessing he's given up getting a straight answer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
An excellent suggestion to find out what would really happen, unfortunately I do not have a sacrificial gold coin, I have sold off my unslabbed bullion.
A planchet problem.
Photo removed by OP because it is an active auction.
Missing dies error.
Yes...Good luck on that 1/2 eagle, let us know how it goes.
My Saint Set
The OP's removed coin image had a stain that was into the coin. It was a major planchet flaw. A rubber band will not harm a gold coin - even if we melted it on to the coin with a torch.
I was expecting the possibility of it discoloring the copper fraction of the composition. So it sounds like I could safely try this experiment on a gold sovereign I have?
Make sure it is not MS.
Pics added back. Continue discussion...
Did you win it?
I did!
A cropped close up.
Looks like post mint damage from concentrated excessive heat.
Interesting coin... Thanks for sharing.
I don't think so. This form of error is common; however most are much, much smaller and usually seen on Morgan dollars. The insides of these marks are often filled with a black substance and there is the usual discoloration around the mark. "Ham-fisted" dummies usually ruin these coins trying to improve them with sharp tools. IMO, marks as these are the result of debris embedded into the strip during rolling. The wavy pattern inside the mark is a universal characteristic of this type of planchet flaw.
It is possible that I'm wrong about the source. Some will say these are strike-thru errors but I disagree because of the pulled-out and stretched appearance always seen with this type of error.
Doesn't look like a slag impurity in the planchet mixture as commonly seen on Morgan and more so on Peace dollars.
This looks like damage which occurred atop the surface of the coin.
NOPE! What magnification and lighting do you use?
It looks EXACTLY like the "slag" I've had to remove from coins because without the black debris and the discoloration the coins look much nicer. As I posted, the inside of the mark is the "key." I'll post an image of the next one that crosses the stage of my scope.
This could be put to rest if an error collector has a blank planchet or piece of strip with embedded debris.
I don't have this coin in hand so questioning magnification and lighting doesn't pertain to me.
What am I reading here...
You dig the slags out?
Did you suffer a head injury?
As once the slag is removed the coins are damaged junk.
Dear @Broadstruck,
Sorry, but I don't choose to educate your ilk as your mind is made up and I have a head injury!
Besides, many folks think the OP's incredible mint error is already just damaged junk! That's probably why he was able to STEAL IT SO CHEAP.
Coin arrived today. Do these new pictures add anything to the discussion?
Can you tell if it's impressed into the coin. What if something fell or was placed on the coin, and then struck. Something not made of metal ???
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
Yes, the marks go down into the coin. I can't see it being a scrape with the impressions running perpendicular to the main dark line though. It would be scratches running parallel to it.
Struck through debris, or planchet flaw then, right ?
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
And can you tell for sure if the strike is over the impressions or are the impressions over the strike?
Answer that and you will know.
My first impression was a planchet flaw... with the enhanced images, I'm leaning more towards "struck through" something.. something big!
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How do you know which it is? I'm not sure what to look for.
If it is a planchet flaw, then the strike would be into it / on top of the impression.
If it is damaged (PMD) after the strike, the impression would be on top of the strike.
IMO, it is not a strike thru.
Looks like someone rolled an object with a reeded edge across it....
Well then, to sum it up... it could be a planchet flaw, struck through debris, or PMD. How's that for an answer @jwitten ? 😈 😹
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
Does it matter that the coin is incuse? Wouldn't a strike-through manifest differently than a normal strike? I've never really thought it through before.
That said, and thinking out loud: the high point of the design is actually the field. Then we go down and come up towards the headband. The lowest point with the blackmark is the chin which seems to not show much in the way of the lines perpendicular to the direction of the black mark. That would seem to argue PMD, wouldn't it? The protected part of the design shows less damage. Or is the argument that the striking pressure smoothed them out?
Looks like a mouse on a motorcycle burned out on it. Bug ugly coin IMO, even if it is an error.
May be worth sending in for grading... on lowest cost tier. Just to know their thoughts with coin in hand.
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
I'm very frustrated but I'll play nice. This EXACT same characteristic is seen on coins. It occurs mostly on Morgan dollars and Buffalo nickels. I've seen this on gold also. These defects look EXACTLY as they do on this coin. The only special thing about this mint error is this planchet flaw is the largest BY FAR than I have ever seen on any coin!
Here is what to look for: In every case I can remember, the marks were shorter and narrow. The defect will be impressed into the surface and its interior will usually have a "stressed-out zipper pattern" with the remains of a black substance. If you look at the edge of the mark, you'll see how it comes to a narrow, "pulled-out" point. I'll search for more images of this defect to prove my opinion. This is a contamination that was rolled into the strip. After the coin was struck, hard particles of the debris fell out leaving some behind in the recesses.
I will stay with my first guess of a planchet problem.
Here is a similar mark on a dollar. It is not magnified enough to see the "zipper."
I think this is the famous “dog scoot” error.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Insider2 - same general shape, but doesn't
look like the same thing to me.
Oh sure blame it on the dog! Why ain't it the cat scoot error?
I'm starting to think that you believe the OP coin may have a planchet flaw huh ??? 😈
I may not know what I'm doing most of the time, but I'm Damn good at it. 😇 😈
I think that may be because this one is minor and as I posted it does not show the ridges clearly. I'll find a better example.
I agree, planchet flaw. I feel like this would have a limited interested audience though. To me it is a detraction from the coin.
Collector, occasional seller
Gold errors are awesome and rare, even if ugly. Come on now folks, lol
I’m far from an expert in coins, but I am a forensic scientist and it looks like a roller-like apparatus left a linear mark and subsequent deposits on the planchet which were then struck through, explaining the presence of said deposits into low areas. Would love to put it under my stereo microscope.