European bank hoard of double eagles?
cinclodes
Posts: 66 ✭
I often see double eagles for sale on TV that are from a so-called European bank hoard. Can anyone shed some light on this? The story is that bags of double eagles were shipped to banks in Europe after the passage of the Gold Reserve Act in 1934, but that law prohibited the export of gold. It seems that something doesn't add up. The story is that owners of gold shipped their holdings overseas to avoid being prosecuted for owning too much gold, but weren't they violating the law by sending it overseas? What would be the motive for sending heavy bags of double eagles to Europe? And how did such bags manage to just happen to remain in those banks until now?
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Comments
It's a variation on the "estate find" sales pitch.
JMO, YMMV
In late 1931 the Hoover administration began requiring all banks to track and report withdrawal and deposit of gold coin. (The had been tracking gold bullion for some time.) If gold was withdrawn, name, address and reason were recorded. The gold was then tracked to verify it was used as claimed. There was no validation of information so false information was common. Gold that was sent to Europe and South America and not for legitimate business purposes was of special interest. By early 1933 there were thousands of names and amounts and the Hoover folks began asking questions. The same Treasury people were held over into the early Roosevelt administration, and exporters were asked to provide proof their gold coin exports were non-speculative. Some were OK, and others had to bring the coins back. After the various Executive Orders, Treasury would accept gold coins only at face value from domestic depositors. Foreign depositors were paid the FMV of the gold provided they could show the coins were not exported from the US after (a date I've forgotten) in latter 1931.
The stuff referred to by the OP is sales bologna - or maybe "souse" is a better term.
When dealing with coin sales on TV, consider that most of their dialogue is rubbish....Total hype with the express intent of defrauding the public. I have had numerous people come to me with their TV 'treasures', only to have to tell them the bad news....and people do not like being conned....Cheers, RickO
I would never buy coins on TV, but the host of the show in question has several numismatic publications and seems reputable.
gotta make the sales pitch, jmo
Is this the same guy selling time shares in Venezuela?
It's Rick Tomaska.
Sad.
Well there are "bank hoards" of these. Any central bank holding gold probably has some in the old vaults.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
https://numismaticnews.net/article/Gold_coin_hoards_tell_interesting_stories
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Most of the article is a retelling from Bowers' books. Other parts are simply strange and show no factual research at all.
"One of the interesting things we learn from gold hoards and even reports of gold hoards is where certain coins appear. It is not always where we might expect. The private gold issues produced in California primarily before 1855 are a good example. The expectation would be that privately produced issues would not travel very far, probably spending their entire time in and around the streets of San Francisco. As a result, a report from the 1855 period of someone finding 20 double eagles in the lining of a trunk in San Francisco with some probably being from the Kellogg & Co. or the Moffat & Co. operations is not all that surprising."
Large California gold pieces from private mints and the Assay Office were common in gold shipped to the east for deposit. The Mint's cabinet of coins includes an excellent set of coins pulled from routine deposits. These also show up in deposits made by families all along the eastern section of the U.S.
Also: "There were certainly other hoards as well including some from the 1880s where speculation in low mintage $1 gold pieces and $3 gold pieces seems to have been popular."
These hoards were accumulated for jewelry use and novelty sales -- not as low mintage collectables as implied by the article.
Those interested in the real background for 20th century US gold issues can pick up a copy of Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles from Heritage Auctions. This book has real quantities and refutes much of anonymous sales speculation accompanying hobby stories.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/books/saint-gaudens-double-eagles-as-illustrated-by-the-phillip-h/i/960001281.s
Link to purchase Roger's book via Heritage, above. Looks like a typically great numismatic work.
wasn't there are large group of $20 Saints recently re-patriated??
as to all the Gold overseas, the bulk of all the $20 Gold ever struck by the US went into bags just like all the Morgan Dollars and was used to facilitate inter-bank and inter-national commerce. why would there be any mystery associated with them being in European banks??
I think Mint State $20 Gold may be the most common coin encapsulated by PCGS and NGC.
Once upon a time, I knew quite a few dealers that would frequent Europe to load up on twenties.
I resemble that remark !
....and people do not like being conned....Cheers, RickO
They don’t? They love to...
Then why has the number of tv coin shows increased and their tv time increased so greatly over the years?
I think ricko meant that people don't like to find out they've been conned.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Very old news retold generation after generation....
Still waiting on that bag of 1921 saints.
That hole ain't filling itself.
My Saint Set
Tom DeLorey (CaptHenway) I believe told the story once about a family who brought in a '21 Saint in amazing shape (or it would have been, had they not lovingly and thoroughly polished it.)
Well, just remember that Polish gave us the polka and a use for the accordion !
Oh dear...
@rawteam1 ....@PerryHall is correct....People get angry, indignant and thoroughly righteous when they are told they purchased a worthless (or almost) coin...but there seems to be a bottomless font of those who blindly go into such 'investments'...Cheers, RickO
Hmmm, why would they do that?...
Hopefully if they do actually do that, it’s in regard to themselves...
@rawteam1 ....Actually, one individual, where I used to work, brought me a couple of Morgans he purchased off TV, with the promise that they were fantastic values... They were not. He was extremely upset, accused me of trying to mislead him so I could buy they coins (I never made an offer, and would not have purchased them if he offered). I showed him the Redbook and other online information... he was furious, said I was wrong... he never spoke to me again. Even another collector there - which he asked independent of my input - tried to tell him the same thing....It was sad to watch. Cheers, RickO
I can't get his program on Comcast but can you give a link to his reference to European hoard ?
In 1945 American Army art recovery teams ("Monuments Men") discovered paintings and other items stolen by the Nazis hidden in the Altaussee Salt Mines in Austria. They also found gold bars and bags of gold coins looted from banks all over Europe.
The find was depicted in the 2014 film "The Monuments Men".
"The Monuments Men" film scene
The film was based on Robert M. Edsel's 2007 book
Monuments Men: Allied Heroes, Nazi Thieves and the Greatest Treasure Hunt in History.
In the book but not in the film there is a description of some American soldiers handling a helmet full of $20 dollar gold coins and estimating the value at $20,000.
After the war an international commission was formed to return the art and gold to their owners.
One's "double eagle" may have done some travelling.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Biggest problem that I see from the TV folks is that they have reps that continually call their "clients" to upgrade their coins to something more rare, more expensive, ad infinitum....
I met with a 90 year old, still sharp mentally, who ran her own business in NYC while living here in Vegas. Sharp to all things except coins. She bought off one of those shows and then was sold a bill of goods on upgrading to this and that.....but they never bought the original piece back, just billed for the new stuff. She thought she had a real agent that worked in her behalf. All raw gold and silver. Her invoices totaled more than $20,000 and the retail value when I purchased was way less than $10,000. Her first purchase to my buy was less than 3 years....so market had not changed much on coin values.
I remember one coin, an 1891cc $5 gold that cost her $1,900 was worth less than $500 as it had been harshly buffed (whizzed).
I think of these folks like timeshare sellers....lowest of the low.
bob
So a hotelier is a more legitimate crook, I mean seller...
Here is his web-site. They have a watch TV option here. IDK if you'll see the European hoard episodes here or not.
https://www.rarecollectiblestv.com/
They are still incorporating this segment into the Weekend Infomercials that I see on FoxBiz, CNBC, and/or Bloomberg TV.
The information is actually somewhat informative and can sprinboard someone's interest in coins and/or Saint-Gaudens DEs (even if not 100% accurate as per RWB above).
The main problem with the infomercials is that to recover the cost of airtime, production costs, etc....the coins have to be sold at a substantial markup to FMV.
Came here to say exactly this. It's not necessarily that they're wrong, or lying (perhaps some are, perhaps some aren't). But not a single TV commercial gives the buyer good value. In order for them to pay for all their marketing costs and still make a profit, they're likely charging at least double or triple the actual market value of the coin, and/or sending cleaned or damaged items to those who don't know any better.
At least when I buy holed coins at my LCS, I get a steep discount over retail...and I know exactly what I'm getting.
Serving the greater Mechanicsburg and Camp Hill, PA area
https://zenithbullionconsulting.wordpress.com/
At the current value of DE I would not want invest in anything raw. Beyond my risk limit.
As far as slabbed DE I would be looking at slabbed material might be interested in. PCGS or CAC/CACG
You know....had I seen one of these 30 years ago, it would have been worth it to learn about these gold coins and the hoards
....instead of being a bullion-only buyer which I was up to about 2010.
I would have looked at paying an extra 30% for 1 or 2 coins to be worth it if it jump-started my interest in pre-1933 gold and Saints.
As it turned out, despite having clients buying them, it went in one ear and out the other....didn't learn about classic gold coins until 15-20 years later after the 2009 UHR came out and I read up on the history.
Oh well...better late than never.
Agreed!
Nothing wrong with stacking bullion, in my book. My personal love is coins, but I do a bit of both. Bullion, coinage, jewelry...any of these would be better than none.
To make sure I'm clear - when I buy holed coins at "a steep discount over retail," that's retail price for the intact coin. Instead of paying, say, $450 for an intact gold dollar, I'll pay maybe $260 where melt is around $220.
Many collectors don't like holed coins, but to me it's just part of the character/history of the specimen. Sure, it's damage, but what's done is done, I guess. And I'm okay with it, as long as the price is right. Just a different way to collect and stack, I suppose.
Serving the greater Mechanicsburg and Camp Hill, PA area
https://zenithbullionconsulting.wordpress.com/
When I was young collector in the 1960s, the word was that a lot of the St. Gaudens double eagles which were then available came from Europe. The story was the coins were left there after Roosevelt’s Gold Surrender Order. This made sense because if U.S. banks were holding gold at the time of Roosevelt’s order, they had to surrender it. The foreign banks did not. So long as a U.S. citizen did not own the gold, the European banks could own it.
As I remember it, the U.S. Treasury issued an opinion in 1954, than any gold coin dated before 1933 was considered to be “rare” and collectible. Anything dated after that was illegal to own, unless you got permission to have it. Such permissions were probably as easy to get as a human passing through the eye of a needle. This resulted in the repatriation of many U.S. gold coins.
In the 1980s, the late Don Romano, who ran the Worthy Coin Store in Boston, said the $20 gold coins were not that easy to get the ‘40s and early ‘50s. Don was too young to really know this, but his father Corrado, was a very known dealer during that period. The elder Romano was in a position to know a great deal about the market at that time.
The short answer is that the European bank hoard claim has merit, but the claim is being made 50 to 60 years after the fact. I saw an episode of this today (Christmas) and saw their story aided by some graphics with ship headed to Europe.
They hocking 1907 low relief $20 gold coins in MS-63. The barker went on and on about low mintage and historical significance. According to the hype the 1907 low relief $20 is “one of the most important coins of the 20th century.” There was not a peep about the 1907 High Relief $20 gold, however. I guess it’s not that important.
All of this is based on hear say, or my feeble memory, but I think it makes for an interesting story.
Great story, Bill. A guy who scoured the European banks (mostly Swiss/French) for Double Eagles was Paul Wittlin, who was the buyer for James Kelly/Paramount International Coin Corp. He was there a few decades before David Akers joined the place after serving in Vietnam.
Q. David Bowers recounts in his Whitman Red Book that some of the banks had hundreds of thousands of DEs available (most common and most circulated) and would actually quote you a price on such a large 5 or 6-figure order.
They greatly overstate the rarity of some of the coins and make comparisions to others with different striking and survival numbers. They will also quote an ASK price on Ebay as if it was a true market price when often it's not sold at that price since it's 30-50% above FMV.
Attorney David Ganz did a lot original research on the 1933/1934 Gold Confiscation/Gold Reserve Act, the Govt's ruling about ownership of US gold coins. The big gold coin collectors of the 30's, 40's, and 50's already understood that collectors of pre-1933 gold coinage were exempt. So you had fabulous gold collections being assembled by Louis Eliasberg, James A. Stack, John J. Pittman, Harold Bareford, J.K. Lilly, Floyd Star, Albert Holden/Norwebs, and others. I'm not aware that any of these collectors got "special permission" from the govt to build their collections....or not to turn them in.
In 1954 the Treasury had to make a ruling on the King Farouk 1933 Double Eagle being auctioned. Ever since 1934 The US Treasury and Secret Service tracked down every surviving example of the 1933 DE they could. That was different than US citizen ownership all other pre-1933 US gold coins. I don't believe there was ever a problem with owning 1933 $10 Indians as some of those were released into circulation/commerce before FDR's Executive Order. A mini-hoard of them was discovered in 1952....and obviously not confiscated.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/10798910#Comment_10798910
Unfortunately, Ganz's original link in that thread has gone POOF. Here's a link to what I believe was the orig article.
And in there Ganz does mention about a 1954 codification that broadened and clarified the definition of “recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coin”.....to any gold coin minted before 1933. The matter was brought up again in the later 1960's with a number of changes.....specifically that any pre-1960 gold coins was "rare and of special interest."
https://usagold.com/gold-seizure-ganz/
Yes, collectors like Eliasberg and Pitman knew that it was legal to collect U.S. gold coins. The “special permission” was for post 1933 gold coins. For example the 1937 King George VI four piece gold coronation set is a cool set, but it wasn’t legal to collect it in the U.S., and a U.S. citizen could not even own it legally and store it in England.
Here is an example of the George VI gold set, photoshopped in the holder.
Don't forget...EO 6102 still allowed every adult to own $100 or 5 gold coins (@ $20.67 the then price). But that was still alot of money and most adults who had gold had a few of the smaller denomination Quarter or Half Eagles at best.
A few more upscale individuals did lose bigger amounts of gold. RWB's Saint-Gaudens DE book noted an individual who had his $5,000 stash at Chase Manhattan Bank in NYC seized by the Feds. He lost in court. And a few people tried to ship their gold over to Europe and Abe Kosoff mentioned Treasury contacted him/his firm and told them to get it back.
The infomercial on Christmas was for the 1907 Low Relief (Arabic) Saint......$7,000 for an MS-63.
I always wonder which European banks? The Nazis controlled Germany, France, Austria, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Holland, pretty much all except Switzerland. Even UK and Swiss banks might have seemed in peril.
Many European countries are unlike the U.S. with thousands of banks -- many just have a select few "national champions", very big banks in small numbers.
I'm not sure if the Nazi Hoard research mentions specific banks, but I can guess that in Switzerland you are talking about UBS and Credit Suisse (plus a few others that may have merged with those banks over the decades)....and in France Banc Paribas.
Where the double eagles were being found, especially the valuable numismatic ones, was kind of a state secret. Paul Wittlin, Paramount's buyer, was featured in lots of articles over the years/decades and I can't recall them mentioning which banks he found numimsatic hoards as opposed to worn coins and commons.