European bank hoard of double eagles?
cinclodes
Posts: 66 ✭
I often see double eagles for sale on TV that are from a so-called European bank hoard. Can anyone shed some light on this? The story is that bags of double eagles were shipped to banks in Europe after the passage of the Gold Reserve Act in 1934, but that law prohibited the export of gold. It seems that something doesn't add up. The story is that owners of gold shipped their holdings overseas to avoid being prosecuted for owning too much gold, but weren't they violating the law by sending it overseas? What would be the motive for sending heavy bags of double eagles to Europe? And how did such bags manage to just happen to remain in those banks until now?
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It's a variation on the "estate find" sales pitch.
JMO, YMMV
In late 1931 the Hoover administration began requiring all banks to track and report withdrawal and deposit of gold coin. (The had been tracking gold bullion for some time.) If gold was withdrawn, name, address and reason were recorded. The gold was then tracked to verify it was used as claimed. There was no validation of information so false information was common. Gold that was sent to Europe and South America and not for legitimate business purposes was of special interest. By early 1933 there were thousands of names and amounts and the Hoover folks began asking questions. The same Treasury people were held over into the early Roosevelt administration, and exporters were asked to provide proof their gold coin exports were non-speculative. Some were OK, and others had to bring the coins back. After the various Executive Orders, Treasury would accept gold coins only at face value from domestic depositors. Foreign depositors were paid the FMV of the gold provided they could show the coins were not exported from the US after (a date I've forgotten) in latter 1931.
The stuff referred to by the OP is sales bologna - or maybe "souse" is a better term.
When dealing with coin sales on TV, consider that most of their dialogue is rubbish....Total hype with the express intent of defrauding the public. I have had numerous people come to me with their TV 'treasures', only to have to tell them the bad news....and people do not like being conned....Cheers, RickO
I would never buy coins on TV, but the host of the show in question has several numismatic publications and seems reputable.
gotta make the sales pitch, jmo
Is this the same guy selling time shares in Venezuela?
It's Rick Tomaska.
Sad.
Well there are "bank hoards" of these. Any central bank holding gold probably has some in the old vaults.
https://numismaticnews.net/article/Gold_coin_hoards_tell_interesting_stories
Most of the article is a retelling from Bowers' books. Other parts are simply strange and show no factual research at all.
"One of the interesting things we learn from gold hoards and even reports of gold hoards is where certain coins appear. It is not always where we might expect. The private gold issues produced in California primarily before 1855 are a good example. The expectation would be that privately produced issues would not travel very far, probably spending their entire time in and around the streets of San Francisco. As a result, a report from the 1855 period of someone finding 20 double eagles in the lining of a trunk in San Francisco with some probably being from the Kellogg & Co. or the Moffat & Co. operations is not all that surprising."
Large California gold pieces from private mints and the Assay Office were common in gold shipped to the east for deposit. The Mint's cabinet of coins includes an excellent set of coins pulled from routine deposits. These also show up in deposits made by families all along the eastern section of the U.S.
Also: "There were certainly other hoards as well including some from the 1880s where speculation in low mintage $1 gold pieces and $3 gold pieces seems to have been popular."
These hoards were accumulated for jewelry use and novelty sales -- not as low mintage collectables as implied by the article.
Those interested in the real background for 20th century US gold issues can pick up a copy of Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles from Heritage Auctions. This book has real quantities and refutes much of anonymous sales speculation accompanying hobby stories.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/books/saint-gaudens-double-eagles-as-illustrated-by-the-phillip-h/i/960001281.s
Link to purchase Roger's book via Heritage, above. Looks like a typically great numismatic work.
wasn't there are large group of $20 Saints recently re-patriated??
as to all the Gold overseas, the bulk of all the $20 Gold ever struck by the US went into bags just like all the Morgan Dollars and was used to facilitate inter-bank and inter-national commerce. why would there be any mystery associated with them being in European banks??
I think Mint State $20 Gold may be the most common coin encapsulated by PCGS and NGC.
Once upon a time, I knew quite a few dealers that would frequent Europe to load up on twenties.
I resemble that remark !
....and people do not like being conned....Cheers, RickO
They don’t? They love to...
Then why has the number of tv coin shows increased and their tv time increased so greatly over the years?
I think ricko meant that people don't like to find out they've been conned.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Very old news retold generation after generation....
Still waiting on that bag of 1921 saints.
That hole ain't filling itself.
My Saint Set
Tom DeLorey (CaptHenway) I believe told the story once about a family who brought in a '21 Saint in amazing shape (or it would have been, had they not lovingly and thoroughly polished it.)
Well, just remember that Polish gave us the polka and a use for the accordion !
Oh dear...
@rawteam1 ....@PerryHall is correct....People get angry, indignant and thoroughly righteous when they are told they purchased a worthless (or almost) coin...but there seems to be a bottomless font of those who blindly go into such 'investments'...Cheers, RickO
Hmmm, why would they do that?...
Hopefully if they do actually do that, it’s in regard to themselves...
@rawteam1 ....Actually, one individual, where I used to work, brought me a couple of Morgans he purchased off TV, with the promise that they were fantastic values... They were not. He was extremely upset, accused me of trying to mislead him so I could buy they coins (I never made an offer, and would not have purchased them if he offered). I showed him the Redbook and other online information... he was furious, said I was wrong... he never spoke to me again. Even another collector there - which he asked independent of my input - tried to tell him the same thing....It was sad to watch. Cheers, RickO
I can't get his program on Comcast but can you give a link to his reference to European hoard ?
In 1945 American Army art recovery teams ("Monuments Men") discovered paintings and other items stolen by the Nazis hidden in the Altaussee Salt Mines in Austria. They also found gold bars and bags of gold coins looted from banks all over Europe.
The find was depicted in the 2014 film "The Monuments Men".
"The Monuments Men" film scene
The film was based on Robert M. Edsel's 2007 book
Monuments Men: Allied Heroes, Nazi Thieves and the Greatest Treasure Hunt in History.
In the book but not in the film there is a description of some American soldiers handling a helmet full of $20 dollar gold coins and estimating the value at $20,000.
After the war an international commission was formed to return the art and gold to their owners.
One's "double eagle" may have done some travelling.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Biggest problem that I see from the TV folks is that they have reps that continually call their "clients" to upgrade their coins to something more rare, more expensive, ad infinitum....
I met with a 90 year old, still sharp mentally, who ran her own business in NYC while living here in Vegas. Sharp to all things except coins. She bought off one of those shows and then was sold a bill of goods on upgrading to this and that.....but they never bought the original piece back, just billed for the new stuff. She thought she had a real agent that worked in her behalf. All raw gold and silver. Her invoices totaled more than $20,000 and the retail value when I purchased was way less than $10,000. Her first purchase to my buy was less than 3 years....so market had not changed much on coin values.
I remember one coin, an 1891cc $5 gold that cost her $1,900 was worth less than $500 as it had been harshly buffed (whizzed).
I think of these folks like timeshare sellers....lowest of the low.
bob
So a hotelier is a more legitimate crook, I mean seller...
Here is his web-site. They have a watch TV option here. IDK if you'll see the European hoard episodes here or not.
https://www.rarecollectiblestv.com/