@doubledragon said:
For Brent to direct a consignor to bid on his own item, is just flat out unethical. If I were a bidder in that auction, I would be livid after reading those text messages.
Words like ‘purportedly’, ‘allegedly’ and ‘potentially’ help keep threads like these alive.
We all have to remember that this is the internet and people have agendas, too. Cards can be doctored but so can scans, texts, screen caps, etc.
I SAY THIS ALL WITH ONE SPECIFIC MOTIVE:
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
We’ve been warned once already about jumping to conclusions and painting with broad strokes. Looking around society in general, validating sources and verifying information is a bit of a lost art these days. By definition, a thorough investigation can’t happen quickly.
And these types of problems desperately need a thorough investigation.
I agree with you in general. In this specific instance, PWCC long ago acknowledged those texts were real on a thread on another message board, though they also attempted to provide an explanation. I would encourage folks to seek out those threads and form their own judgments.
Sunlight is indeed the best disinfectant. I'm glad PSA has chosen to allow these issues to be discussed. The members here who only read this board deserve to know what the rest of us have known for 2-3 years. Previous mentions of the DiMaggio and other issues with PWCC were immediately deleted and members banned for raising them.
Guys... Thank you for keeping this all civil, and free of wild accusation and conspiracy theory. I don't have answers to the questions that you all have, but let me at least offer this...
I have known Steve Sloan for 20 years, well before either of us ever thought of working for PSA. One of the things that drew us together was a love of this hobby. Fast forward a couple of decades and Steve is now president of PSA. Do you know what he keeps in his office, and has shown me on multiple occasions? His binder of cards from when he was a kid. Junk era stars, his beloved Oakland A's and stuff like that. The cards are generally in crummy condition and free of any monetary value, but loaded with sentimental value. He still has those cards, and has them at his office, because he loves this hobby.
Any decisions that are ultimately made, not only in this situation, but in anything going forward, will be done after great research and thought, and with the best of intentions.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
@doubledragon said:
For Brent to direct a consignor to bid on his own item, is just flat out unethical. If I were a bidder in that auction, I would be livid after reading those text messages.
Words like ‘purportedly’, ‘allegedly’ and ‘potentially’ help keep threads like these alive.
We all have to remember that this is the internet and people have agendas, too. Cards can be doctored but so can scans, texts, screen caps, etc.
I SAY THIS ALL WITH ONE SPECIFIC MOTIVE:
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
We’ve been warned once already about jumping to conclusions and painting with broad strokes. Looking around society in general, validating sources and verifying information is a bit of a lost art these days. By definition, a thorough investigation can’t happen quickly.
And these types of problems desperately need a thorough investigation.
I’ve been a bit occupied and mostly away from the hobby since this all came up. Having read about half of it already it seems to me that things are getting ahead of themselves, and I think it’s time to stop dancing around what is clearly on the minds of many people right now; how to respond and react to the re-emergence of the integrity issues in the hobby.
There are all sorts of pieces of information that are coming to light on hobby message boards about integrity issues in the hobby. Many have jumped to conclusions based on these which may turn out to be accurate, but for now are premature because the vast majority of this information is circumstantial and/or being interpreted based on assumptions which need to be validated and confirmed. It will likely require additional "discoverable" (in the legal meaning of the word) knowledge in order to confirm what many are assuming and asserting to be the case.
If people continue to want to see "shadows and conspiracies" everywhere based on incomplete information this is quickly going to turn into a major train wreck that is going to hurt a lot of people. OR, CALMER HEADS COULD PREVAIL.
There have always been stakeholders in this hobby that lack integrity. That's one of the primary reasons that PSA exists. It is unfortunate that one of the largest consignment operators involved in the hobby has apparently gone on record to effectively say that cheating is okay as long as you don't get caught with respect to their recent sale of a 1952 Mantle. It's certainly not unreasonable based on that situation to have concern and be vigilant about other transactions and activities that this consignment operator has been involved in. But it seems like many have quickly jumped to a conclusion that widespread fraud and TPG incompetence exists WHEN IN FACT there are only unsubstantiated accusations and suspicions based on preliminary information.
It's unrealistic to expect that any TPG will be perfect but, until PROVEN otherwise, nobody has sufficiently demonstrated that the current accusations and suspicions are widespread or systemic. In the primary sales channels used by the hobby the masking of identities is more-or-less the standard practice, providing privacy but at the cost of creating an opportunity for unscrupulous stakeholders (buyers, sellers and/or consignment operators) to manipulate things unfairly. But while there appears to be evidence that some stakeholders may have been taking advantage of that masking to drive higher price realization it has not been established that the vast majority of market participants are doing the same thing. Statements like "..The fraud is way more prevalent than people believe..." are incendiary but far from established fact.
It would certainly help if the largest stakeholders in the hobby could collectively make some public statement to calm and reassure in the immediate time frame, and then initiate activities as soon as possible to look into these concerns and address any findings of fact (if necessary).
For those of us with significant holdings of TPG cards and other authenticated memorabilla we are doing ourselves a disservice if we continue to blindly go down the path of seeing shadows and conspiracy in everything just because one large market participant may not be operating within the limits of the established and expected tenets that the hobby has largely centered around. We would be much better served by making our concerns about these integrity issues known to the biggest stakeholders in our hobby so that they can take steps to address any shortcomings that may exist.
Lastly, from a personal perspective I will say that I have always valued and appreciated my posting rights here on the PSA Forums. I have not only enjoyed the hobby more because of them but I have established many friendships as a result of being a member of this community. I have always tried to add to the community and do things here that are positive contributions to it. This posting is definitely offered with that intent and I hope it will be interpreted in that light. We have a serious situation developing and what is needed is for speculation to stop, transparency to be provided on a timely basis and smart actions to be taken to look into, and address if necessary, the concerns that have been raised.
@80sOPC said:
They aren’t, employee theft is possible. But insolvency is highly unlikely and they have controls in place that is light years ahead of a smb in Oregon that wants your 150k in collectables. These models usually go bad when the proprietor runs into financial trouble, a big bank in the US or Canada is mostly immune to this.
For how flaky our hobby is, I find it crazy that anyone would send their valuables away for long term storage with a relatively new, relatively small company. I see close to zero upside - anyone that has a 6 figure investment in sports cards has to have secure housing and the resources to secure their cards at home. I mean the biggest fear is someone we don’t know gets into our space and has access to our cards, so the counter is to put our valuables in a space full of people we don’t know? Seems counter intuitive.
@80sOPC said:
I would caution anyone considering using offsite storage for cards to read up on some of the issues wine collectors have had with offsite storage. In short, your stuff is safe till it isn’t and don’t expect the vendors insurance to cover any loss. You will still want to carry insurance and if you vendor runs into financial trouble, look out.
Not suggesting that pwcc isn’t trustworthy but there are lots of wine collectors that have been burnt by very similar models.
Bottom line I would use the vault short term to sell items, long term storage no chance I give a small business high priced cards that are easily stored at home or at a bank.
All valid points, but banks aren’t fail safe either.
@doubledragon said:
I just got a chance to look at all of the altered cards on sports card radio's website, and I'm stunned. I didn't realize how big this scandal has become. It has become alterationgate.
I believe the correct term is “conservationgate” 😄
@LGC said:
About the Vault, does anyone know how PWCC proposes to deal with a deceased person’s executor? That is, will the Vault be like a bank’s safety deposit box that an executor will be able to access to perform his/her duties?
The current negative vibe on the board and on the BO board would indicate that, based on everything Brent appears to be doing, PWCC would benefit from unclaimed vault items.
PWCC would not benefit as most states have unclaimed property laws and PWCC would have to eventually hand over the unclaimed vault items to the state for auction.
To get back to the OP, there are other avenues such as a regular bank safe deposit box than having PWCC hold onto your cards. There are also other issues with the Vault concept that I find troubling and would not be a vehicle I would recommend.
Thank you!
So PWCC would have to hand over unclaimed items in compliance with the laws of the state and what compels PWCC to comply with the laws is that they are good corporate citizens.
problem is that when you sign "the agreement" you agree that their state is the state of forum. The property not being present in the state of death could also hinder a judge to have jurisdiction on an out of state asset.
you collected george brett's cards instead of mike schmidt's
Ah yes, the guy who's lifetime world series average was .220 and his lifetime post season
average was .238. Yes, I only collected guys who became monsters when it counted. Mike
was not one of them. George was. LOL.
No strong opinion on "conservation" per se, other than that battle was waged many years ago with regard to comics and CGC. Overall, though some holdouts still shout at the clouds about it, "conservation" (pressing comics to flatten warps, remove non-color-breaking creases -- but without any solvent cleaning, pieces added, color touch, etc.) is considered market-acceptable and par for the course in getting any valuable comics certified now. An entire cottage industry exists to service this need. Still, trimming a comic is verboten (physically taking away what was part of the original book) and is looked upon the same way trimming a card is.
My only thought is that PSA should (and, IMO, will) make good on the value/perceived value loss, on those cards in their holders that have provably been trimmed and were certified at a higher grade. To do otherwise would be far more costly to their brand perception.
Time will tell on the above as well as any potential legal remedies/pursuits of the trimmers/scammers in question.
One other thought -- the unfortunate before and after images of many cards in slabs, pre and post-trim (with slight grading bump) certainly call into question the wisdom of paying up for unicorn centering that's unusual for a given issue. Sad to see it but the "supply" was increased to meet that demand.
Another thing unfortunate about the situation is it calls into question the wisdom of freshly slabbed examples of a given card, vs. one that's been in its holder for years. Although one trimmer in question has been working at his craft since 2002, so that can't be a guarantee either, unfortunately.
Well then... I make a simple post and a thread breaks out, lol. Been a busy last couple days for me and I just checked this thread for the first time and missed 112 posts since the last time I looked. I am catching up and quoting and responding along the way:
@eagles33 said:
Oh boy. I never used pwcc but just sent them a 1956 Topps set I bought locally. I never sold high dollar raw cards before or complete sets on eBay so figured it was worth having a reputable seller sell them. I don’t know what the issue is but now I’m nervous
Good luck with your sales. I am guessing you will do ok. Based on some of the PWCC auctions I was following (and not winning) this week it seems like they are still getting strong prices for their listings amidst this storm.
@DBesse27 said:
Steve, if I didn’t know what a straight shooter you are, I would swear you were trolling. Going to be harder than it used to be to find people eagerly sending their cash and high end cards to PWCC now and in the near future.
@balco758 said:
Thanks to all for the updates. I was unaware of any issues. And unfortunately, a bit naive.
Personally, I am 95% a collector so the Vault concept didn’t have any appeal for me.
DBesse27, no troll here. Not my style.
Steve
I think he meant the other Steve in the thread, the OP.
After reading the releases about the PWCC, to me, the Vault is primarily a tax shelter and a way to keep cards ‘known’. With some cards, it’s not always even about having the money but the finding of a copy for sale. So I imagine for those not looking for security or tax savings, the appeal for sellers will be that your card is there and high bids/offers can be reflected to you by PWCC. As a buyer, I imagine the Vault will be an opportunity to make offers on the rare and valuable with many ‘new highs’ established as a result of these private sales.
For those inquiring about the scandals, I think it revolves around a handful of graded cards that have been called into question by internet sleuths who believe these cards have been altered. It runs the gamut from modern to vintage.
While people have lobbed accusations everywhere, **it seems to me that the fault lies primarily with the people altering the cards. As technology improves and alteration methods become less perceptible, alterations are becoming harder and harder to detect.
Similar to the MLB steroid scandal, people seem to be disproportionately mad at PSA and PWCC for the moral and ethical failings of others.
This is just my opinion/recounting of it all. To date, I have seen no actual evidence that anyone at PSA OR PWCC has been actively involved in card alteration or collusion with the owners of said items.**
I’m not following it as closely as others so I expect to be corrected on some elements of this information.
What’s clear to me is some seemingly bad items have ended up in slabs, much to the chagrin of the marketplace.
I largely agree with the reasoning in your post as a whole, but especially the part where you say people are "disproportionately mad at PSA and PWCC". I agree that it seems like there is a great deal of enmity being directed towards PSA and PWCC. I think this is largely because outside of a handful of the bad guys who have been outed, the trimmers and scammers are largely still faceless and anonymous. PSA and PWCC are huge brands and easy faces and targets for those who are rightly angered by the actions of the scammers. While anger is justified, I think the anger should be directed towards the actual trimmers/scammers.
@sportscardtheory said:
The OP post looks like it was written by a professional shadow advertising company. After all that has come out about PWCC, this post just happens to appear? lol
Thanks? I guess I will take it as a compliment that my post appeared to be professionally written, lol. But no, I don't work for PWCC.
@sportscardtheory said:
The OP post looks like it was written by a professional shadow advertising company. After all that has come out about PWCC, this post just happens to appear? lol
Considering I personally know the OP (and many other CU members do too) I can assure you that your conspiracy theory is unfounded. In fact, I sell advertising and he most definitely does not.
This is correct, I do not work in advertising.
@Frozencaribou said:
The matter isn't resolved yet. I am waiting for resolution from PWCC. I will report back on how it is handled. The wrinkle is that I consigned to the next auction instead of paying the invoice through eBay. Therefore it is something that I trust PWCC will make right. I've dealt with PWCC for years and hopefully they will do the right thing here.
» show previous quotes
When exactly? If under 30 days, ‘item not as described’ may work.
You know, since it’s not as described.
Does the TPG buy the card?
Nathanael, good luck with working with PWCC to come to a resolution. I am very curious what comes of your situation and I hope you keep us all updated. Brent has gone on record on a collecting podcast (Cardboard Chronicles) saying that PWCC will make right to any customer who unwittingly purchased any altered cards that they have brokered in their auctions. This is a good test to see if PWCC's actions align with their words.
Well then... I make a simple post and a thread breaks out, lol. Been a busy last couple days for me and I just checked this thread for the first time and missed 112 posts since the last time I looked. I am catching up and quoting and responding along the way:
@eagles33 said:
Oh boy. I never used pwcc but just sent them a 1956 Topps set I bought locally. I never sold high dollar raw cards before or complete sets on eBay so figured it was worth having a reputable seller sell them. I don’t know what the issue is but now I’m nervous
Good luck with your sales. I am guessing you will do ok. Based on some of the PWCC auctions I was following (and not winning) this week it seems like they are still getting strong prices for their listings amidst this storm.
@DBesse27 said:
Steve, if I didn’t know what a straight shooter you are, I would swear you were trolling. Going to be harder than it used to be to find people eagerly sending their cash and high end cards to PWCC now and
@balco758 said:
Thanks to all for the updates. I was unaware of any issues. And unfortunately, a bit naive.
Personally, I am 95% a collector so the Vault concept didn’t have any appeal for me.
DBesse27, no troll here. Not my style.
Steve
I think he meant the other Steve in the thread, the OP.
After reading the releases about the PWCC, to me, the Vault is primarily a tax shelter and a way to keep cards ‘known’. With some cards, it’s not always even about having the money but the finding of a copy for sale. So I imagine for those not looking for security or tax savings, the appeal for sellers will be that your card is there and high bids/offers can be reflected to you by PWCC. As a buyer, I imagine the Vault will be an opportunity to make offers on the rare and valuable with many ‘new highs’ established as a result of these private sales.
For those inquiring about the scandals, I think it revolves around a handful of graded cards that have been called into question by internet sleuths who believe these cards have been altered. It runs the gamut from modern to vintage.
While people have lobbed accusations everywhere, **it seems to me that the fault lies primarily with the people altering the cards. As technology improves and alteration methods become less perceptible, alterations are becoming harder and harder to detect.
Similar to the MLB steroid scandal, people seem to be disproportionately mad at PSA and PWCC for the moral and ethical failings of others.
This is just my opinion/recounting of it all. To date, I have seen no actual evidence that anyone at PSA OR PWCC has been actively involved in card alteration or collusion with the owners of said items.**
I’m not following it as closely as others so I expect to be corrected on some elements of this information.
What’s clear to me is some seemingly bad items have ended up in slabs, much to the chagrin of the marketplace.
I largely agree with the reasoning in your post as a whole, but especially the part where you say people are "disproportionately mad at PSA and PWCC". I agree that it seems like there is a great deal of enmity being directed towards PSA and PWCC. I think this is largely because outside of a handful of the bad guys who have been outed, the trimmers and scammers are largely still faceless and anonymous. PSA and PWCC are huge brands and easy faces and targets for those who are rightly angered by the actions of the scammers. While anger is justified, I think the anger should be directed towards the actual trimmers/scammers.
Good points above, and I see most people are upset with PWCC mainly due to the fact they can’t seem to get out of their own way with posting messages and videos that make the problem worse. Whoever advises Brent went it comes to cirisis management needs to step in and take away the microphone and keyboard - every time he makes a statement he makes it much worse. Shill bidding fiasco in 2016 showed us texts between him and Courtney where they were discussing how to bid on PWCC auction and we all remember how that turned out.
This time with altered cards a one hour video interview where his position is altering a card to the point you can’t tell it has been altered is conservation not anything nefarious. Wait. The top eBay seller after a huge discovery about a Mantle rookie card comes out and rather than take the correct position again is seemingly on the wrong side of history. Best bet would have been to say nothing. If it was my business I pull the card in question and do some research. His position Is it is not fair to the submitter of the card to pull it despite evidence showing some major issues. Maybe a big picture view is how about the buyer of the card - do they matter in all this or is it just what makes you $$ and not the overall picture.
Based on comments here and other boards people did not agree with him nor his business practices, and only time will tell the impact to PWCC’s sales and reputation long term. Short terms it appears they don’t like his ethics or arrogance and it will and has cost them customers.
Well then... I make a simple post and a thread breaks out, lol. Been a busy last couple days for me and I just checked this thread for the first time and missed 112 posts since the last time I looked. I am catching up and quoting and responding along the way:
@eagles33 said:
Oh boy. I never used pwcc but just sent them a 1956 Topps set I bought locally. I never sold high dollar raw cards before or complete sets on eBay so figured it was worth having a reputable seller sell them. I don’t know what the issue is but now I’m nervous
Good luck with your sales. I am guessing you will do ok. Based on some of the PWCC auctions I was following (and not winning) this week it seems like they are still getting strong prices for their listings amidst this storm.
@DBesse27 said:
Steve, if I didn’t know what a straight shooter you are, I would swear you were trolling. Going to be harder than it used to be to find people eagerly sending their cash and high end cards to PWCC now and
@balco758 said:
Thanks to all for the updates. I was unaware of any issues. And unfortunately, a bit naive.
Personally, I am 95% a collector so the Vault concept didn’t have any appeal for me.
DBesse27, no troll here. Not my style.
Steve
I think he meant the other Steve in the thread, the OP.
After reading the releases about the PWCC, to me, the Vault is primarily a tax shelter and a way to keep cards ‘known’. With some cards, it’s not always even about having the money but the finding of a copy for sale. So I imagine for those not looking for security or tax savings, the appeal for sellers will be that your card is there and high bids/offers can be reflected to you by PWCC. As a buyer, I imagine the Vault will be an opportunity to make offers on the rare and valuable with many ‘new highs’ established as a result of these private sales.
For those inquiring about the scandals, I think it revolves around a handful of graded cards that have been called into question by internet sleuths who believe these cards have been altered. It runs the gamut from modern to vintage.
While people have lobbed accusations everywhere, **it seems to me that the fault lies primarily with the people altering the cards. As technology improves and alteration methods become less perceptible, alterations are becoming harder and harder to detect.
Similar to the MLB steroid scandal, people seem to be disproportionately mad at PSA and PWCC for the moral and ethical failings of others.
This is just my opinion/recounting of it all. To date, I have seen no actual evidence that anyone at PSA OR PWCC has been actively involved in card alteration or collusion with the owners of said items.**
I’m not following it as closely as others so I expect to be corrected on some elements of this information.
What’s clear to me is some seemingly bad items have ended up in slabs, much to the chagrin of the marketplace.
I largely agree with the reasoning in your post as a whole, but especially the part where you say people are "disproportionately mad at PSA and PWCC". I agree that it seems like there is a great deal of enmity being directed towards PSA and PWCC. I think this is largely because outside of a handful of the bad guys who have been outed, the trimmers and scammers are largely still faceless and anonymous. PSA and PWCC are huge brands and easy faces and targets for those who are rightly angered by the actions of the scammers. While anger is justified, I think the anger should be directed towards the actual trimmers/scammers.
Good points above, and I see most people are upset with PWCC mainly due to the fact they can’t seem to get out of their own way with posting messages and videos that make the problem worse. Whoever advises Brent went it comes to cirisis management needs to step in and take away the microphone and keyboard - every time he makes a statement he makes it much worse. Shill bidding fiasco in 2016 showed us texts between him and Courtney where they were discussing how to bid on PWCC auction and we all remember how that turned out.
This time with altered cards a one hour video interview where his position is altering a card to the point you can’t tell it has been altered is conservation not anything nefarious. Wait. The top eBay seller after a huge discovery about a Mantle rookie card comes out and rather than take the correct position again is seemingly on the wrong side of history. Best bet would have been to say nothing. If it was my business I pull the card in question and do some research. His position Is it is not fair to the submitter of the card to pull it despite evidence showing some major issues. Maybe a big picture view is how about the buyer of the card - do they matter in all this or is it just what makes you $$ and not the overall picture.
Based on comments here and other boards people did not agree with him nor his business practices, and only time will tell the impact to PWCC’s sales and reputation long term. Short terms it appears they don’t like his ethics or arrogance and it will and has cost them customers.
KC
I wonder what the local reaction will of PWCC at the national?
@1970s said:
I enjoy my collectibles way too much for anyone else to hold onto them. Collecting is a fun thing for me. I enjoy escaping back into my childhood every once in a while in my private room. It's locked by the way, and only I have the key.
Putting a bow on this debacle that I referenced in this thread a couple of months ago...
I purchased a 1953-54 Rocket Richard parkhurst card in March for $2800 that was certified high end. That card turned out to be a Moser altered card. After I discovered this was an altered card, I asked to void the transaction as I had consigned items with PWCC at the time and the card in question was still in their possession. After two weeks of deliberations from PWCC I was getting nowhere so I contacted Brent directly. They did void the transaction.
The consequence for me as a buyer in demanding the transaction of a proven altered card be voided has been that I am now blocked. Here's the text of the email...
_Hi Nathanael,
Thanks for reaching out. Yes, there was a block placed on your eBay user I.D. as a result the 1953 Parkhurst Rocket Richard. Unfortunately it is to close to that incident date to consider removing the block on your account. However, that block only has to do with your eBay account and it's ability to bid in our auctions, you are still more than welcome to consign with us, that wouldn't be a problem at all._
Just thought people should know what to expect when asserting yourselves in returning proven altered cards. The idea that I could consign but not bid seems kind of strange.
@Frozencaribou said:
The matter isn't resolved yet. I am waiting for resolution from PWCC. I will report back on how it is handled. The wrinkle is that I consigned to the next auction instead of paying the invoice through eBay. Therefore it is something that I trust PWCC will make right. I've dealt with PWCC for years and hopefully they will do the right thing here.
» show previous quotes
When exactly? If under 30 days, ‘item not as described’ may work.
You know, since it’s not as described.
Does the TPG buy the card?
Nathanael, good luck with working with PWCC to come to a resolution. I am very curious what comes of your situation and I hope you keep us all updated. Brent has gone on record on a collecting podcast (Cardboard Chronicles) saying that PWCC will make right to any customer who unwittingly purchased any altered cards that they have brokered in their auctions. This is a good test to see if PWCC's actions align with their words.
@Frozencaribou said:
However, that block only has to do with your eBay account and it's ability to bid in our auctions, you are still more than welcome to consign with us, that wouldn't be a problem at all._
The greed and evil is real.
_I have edited this comment. Please reserve that kind of language for other places.
This is just further proof of the motivations and true intentions of PWCC. Even when PWCC is caught participating in fraudulent activity and appear to make the right decision and void the fraudulent transaction.....they immediately follow it by blaming/banning the victim of the fraud because he simply stood up and would not take being victim of their fraudulent activities.
I especially like the "However, that block only has to do with your eBay account and it's ability to bid in our auctions, you are still more than welcome to consign with us, that wouldn't be a problem at all."
Yes, because you are the type of company I want to do business with. lol
I once had plans to use their vault for Auction Winnings (sent right to the vault). I no longer plan to do any business with them. If I did have anything in their vault I would actually be requesting them to send me back everything...
That is very disappointing Frozencaribou. Just when you think you've heard it all. You can still consign with us? I just about fell out of my chair when I read that.
@Frozencaribou said:
Putting a bow on this debacle that I referenced in this thread a couple of months ago...
I purchased a 1953-54 Rocket Richard parkhurst card in March for $2800 that was certified high end. That card turned out to be a Moser altered card. After I discovered this was an altered card, I asked to void the transaction as I had consigned items with PWCC at the time and the card in question was still in their possession. After two weeks of deliberations from PWCC I was getting nowhere so I contacted Brent directly. They did void the transaction.
The consequence for me as a buyer in demanding the transaction of a proven altered card be voided has been that I am now blocked. Here's the text of the email...
_Hi Nathanael,
Thanks for reaching out. Yes, there was a block placed on your eBay user I.D. as a result the 1953 Parkhurst Rocket Richard. Unfortunately it is to close to that incident date to consider removing the block on your account. However, that block only has to do with your eBay account and it's ability to bid in our auctions, you are still more than welcome to consign with us, that wouldn't be a problem at all._
Just thought people should know what to expect when asserting yourselves in returning proven altered cards. The idea that I could consign but not bid seems kind of strange.
@Frozencaribou said:
The matter isn't resolved yet. I am waiting for resolution from PWCC. I will report back on how it is handled. The wrinkle is that I consigned to the next auction instead of paying the invoice through eBay. Therefore it is something that I trust PWCC will make right. I've dealt with PWCC for years and hopefully they will do the right thing here.
» show previous quotes
When exactly? If under 30 days, ‘item not as described’ may work.
You know, since it’s not as described.
Does the TPG buy the card?
Nathanael, good luck with working with PWCC to come to a resolution. I am very curious what comes of your situation and I hope you keep us all updated. Brent has gone on record on a collecting podcast (Cardboard Chronicles) saying that PWCC will make right to any customer who unwittingly purchased any altered cards that they have brokered in their auctions. This is a good test to see if PWCC's actions align with their words.
I'm glad that when I return defective merchandise to Walmart or Target I am not blocked.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Those vendors want you to buy again. The PWCC model requires buyers that don’t question the purchase. Have the one card centering issues or snow? Nothing to see here.
Thats why he can block sellers that return cards. Most of us WANT to believe.
@Frozencaribou said:
Putting a bow on this debacle that I referenced in this thread a couple of months ago...
I purchased a 1953-54 Rocket Richard parkhurst card in March for $2800 that was certified high end. That card turned out to be a Moser altered card. After I discovered this was an altered card, I asked to void the transaction as I had consigned items with PWCC at the time and the card in question was still in their possession. After two weeks of deliberations from PWCC I was getting nowhere so I contacted Brent directly. They did void the transaction.
The consequence for me as a buyer in demanding the transaction of a proven altered card be voided has been that I am now blocked. Here's the text of the email...
_Hi Nathanael,
Thanks for reaching out. Yes, there was a block placed on your eBay user I.D. as a result the 1953 Parkhurst Rocket Richard. Unfortunately it is to close to that incident date to consider removing the block on your account. However, that block only has to do with your eBay account and it's ability to bid in our auctions, you are still more than welcome to consign with us, that wouldn't be a problem at all._
Just thought people should know what to expect when asserting yourselves in returning proven altered cards. The idea that I could consign but not bid seems kind of strange.
@Frozencaribou said:
The matter isn't resolved yet. I am waiting for resolution from PWCC. I will report back on how it is handled. The wrinkle is that I consigned to the next auction instead of paying the invoice through eBay. Therefore it is something that I trust PWCC will make right. I've dealt with PWCC for years and hopefully they will do the right thing here.
» show previous quotes
When exactly? If under 30 days, ‘item not as described’ may work.
You know, since it’s not as described.
Does the TPG buy the card?
Nathanael, good luck with working with PWCC to come to a resolution. I am very curious what comes of your situation and I hope you keep us all updated. Brent has gone on record on a collecting podcast (Cardboard Chronicles) saying that PWCC will make right to any customer who unwittingly purchased any altered cards that they have brokered in their auctions. This is a good test to see if PWCC's actions align with their words.
I'm glad that when I return defective merchandise to Walmart or Target I am not blocked.
Ridiculous response but not surprising after all that has now come to light.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Just thought people should know what to expect when asserting yourselves in returning proven altered cards. The idea that I could consign but not bid seems kind of strange.
It's only a matter of time where his "salt of the earth" defense of employees of PWCC turns to shifting blame on them. The inability to point the finger at yourself is one of the biggest problems we face in the modern world. Everyone is looking for someone to blame.
Thanks for the support, guys. If I had innocently sold an altered card to someone and they found out and brought it to my attention, I would be apologetic and want to make up for the situation any way I could. It doesn't make any sense to me why a seller would handle it any other way.
I am done consigning with PWCC. I am done bidding on their auctions. After all that has come to light, and how they have treated me personally, I don't intend to interact with them again. I chose to share my experience here so people know what they are getting into if they want to buy or consign with them.
@Frozencaribou said:
Thanks for the support, guys. If I had innocently sold an altered card to someone and they found out and brought it to my attention, I would be apologetic and want to make up for the situation any way I could. It doesn't make any sense to me why a seller would handle it any other way.
I am done consigning with PWCC. I am done bidding on their auctions. After all that has come to light, and how they have treated me personally, I don't intend to interact with them again. I chose to share my experience here so people know what they are getting into if they want to buy or consign with them.
-Nathanael
I had a different scenario with the same outcome -- they blocked me after I've won around $10K worth of auctions and bid on more than double that (even if I don't win, my higher bids helped them realize a higher final sale price). Granted, my scenario was different -- I returned a card that I felt was overgraded -- but I felt they should honor the return because the way they described it did not fit the card. They did take the return, blocked me, then relisted and sold the card to some poor winner (went for $2,750 on the re-listed auction). The fact they re-listed the card nad used the exact same description for the card totally amazed me -- I mean they knew about the flaw in the card but still talked it up in their listing... I will never deal with them again...
Comments
I agree with you in general. In this specific instance, PWCC long ago acknowledged those texts were real on a thread on another message board, though they also attempted to provide an explanation. I would encourage folks to seek out those threads and form their own judgments.
Sunlight is indeed the best disinfectant. I'm glad PSA has chosen to allow these issues to be discussed. The members here who only read this board deserve to know what the rest of us have known for 2-3 years. Previous mentions of the DiMaggio and other issues with PWCC were immediately deleted and members banned for raising them.
Guys... Thank you for keeping this all civil, and free of wild accusation and conspiracy theory. I don't have answers to the questions that you all have, but let me at least offer this...
I have known Steve Sloan for 20 years, well before either of us ever thought of working for PSA. One of the things that drew us together was a love of this hobby. Fast forward a couple of decades and Steve is now president of PSA. Do you know what he keeps in his office, and has shown me on multiple occasions? His binder of cards from when he was a kid. Junk era stars, his beloved Oakland A's and stuff like that. The cards are generally in crummy condition and free of any monetary value, but loaded with sentimental value. He still has those cards, and has them at his office, because he loves this hobby.
Any decisions that are ultimately made, not only in this situation, but in anything going forward, will be done after great research and thought, and with the best of intentions.
I’ve been a bit occupied and mostly away from the hobby since this all came up. Having read about half of it already it seems to me that things are getting ahead of themselves, and I think it’s time to stop dancing around what is clearly on the minds of many people right now; how to respond and react to the re-emergence of the integrity issues in the hobby.
There are all sorts of pieces of information that are coming to light on hobby message boards about integrity issues in the hobby. Many have jumped to conclusions based on these which may turn out to be accurate, but for now are premature because the vast majority of this information is circumstantial and/or being interpreted based on assumptions which need to be validated and confirmed. It will likely require additional "discoverable" (in the legal meaning of the word) knowledge in order to confirm what many are assuming and asserting to be the case.
If people continue to want to see "shadows and conspiracies" everywhere based on incomplete information this is quickly going to turn into a major train wreck that is going to hurt a lot of people. OR, CALMER HEADS COULD PREVAIL.
There have always been stakeholders in this hobby that lack integrity. That's one of the primary reasons that PSA exists. It is unfortunate that one of the largest consignment operators involved in the hobby has apparently gone on record to effectively say that cheating is okay as long as you don't get caught with respect to their recent sale of a 1952 Mantle. It's certainly not unreasonable based on that situation to have concern and be vigilant about other transactions and activities that this consignment operator has been involved in. But it seems like many have quickly jumped to a conclusion that widespread fraud and TPG incompetence exists WHEN IN FACT there are only unsubstantiated accusations and suspicions based on preliminary information.
It's unrealistic to expect that any TPG will be perfect but, until PROVEN otherwise, nobody has sufficiently demonstrated that the current accusations and suspicions are widespread or systemic. In the primary sales channels used by the hobby the masking of identities is more-or-less the standard practice, providing privacy but at the cost of creating an opportunity for unscrupulous stakeholders (buyers, sellers and/or consignment operators) to manipulate things unfairly. But while there appears to be evidence that some stakeholders may have been taking advantage of that masking to drive higher price realization it has not been established that the vast majority of market participants are doing the same thing. Statements like "..The fraud is way more prevalent than people believe..." are incendiary but far from established fact.
It would certainly help if the largest stakeholders in the hobby could collectively make some public statement to calm and reassure in the immediate time frame, and then initiate activities as soon as possible to look into these concerns and address any findings of fact (if necessary).
For those of us with significant holdings of TPG cards and other authenticated memorabilla we are doing ourselves a disservice if we continue to blindly go down the path of seeing shadows and conspiracy in everything just because one large market participant may not be operating within the limits of the established and expected tenets that the hobby has largely centered around. We would be much better served by making our concerns about these integrity issues known to the biggest stakeholders in our hobby so that they can take steps to address any shortcomings that may exist.
Lastly, from a personal perspective I will say that I have always valued and appreciated my posting rights here on the PSA Forums. I have not only enjoyed the hobby more because of them but I have established many friendships as a result of being a member of this community. I have always tried to add to the community and do things here that are positive contributions to it. This posting is definitely offered with that intent and I hope it will be interpreted in that light. We have a serious situation developing and what is needed is for speculation to stop, transparency to be provided on a timely basis and smart actions to be taken to look into, and address if necessary, the concerns that have been raised.
Dave
Thank you, Dave. I appreciate your thoughts.
Ozark People
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
I believe the correct term is “conservationgate” 😄
KC
problem is that when you sign "the agreement" you agree that their state is the state of forum. The property not being present in the state of death could also hinder a judge to have jurisdiction on an out of state asset.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
George is better than Mike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
No strong opinion on "conservation" per se, other than that battle was waged many years ago with regard to comics and CGC. Overall, though some holdouts still shout at the clouds about it, "conservation" (pressing comics to flatten warps, remove non-color-breaking creases -- but without any solvent cleaning, pieces added, color touch, etc.) is considered market-acceptable and par for the course in getting any valuable comics certified now. An entire cottage industry exists to service this need. Still, trimming a comic is verboten (physically taking away what was part of the original book) and is looked upon the same way trimming a card is.
My only thought is that PSA should (and, IMO, will) make good on the value/perceived value loss, on those cards in their holders that have provably been trimmed and were certified at a higher grade. To do otherwise would be far more costly to their brand perception.
Time will tell on the above as well as any potential legal remedies/pursuits of the trimmers/scammers in question.
One other thought -- the unfortunate before and after images of many cards in slabs, pre and post-trim (with slight grading bump) certainly call into question the wisdom of paying up for unicorn centering that's unusual for a given issue. Sad to see it but the "supply" was increased to meet that demand.
Another thing unfortunate about the situation is it calls into question the wisdom of freshly slabbed examples of a given card, vs. one that's been in its holder for years. Although one trimmer in question has been working at his craft since 2002, so that can't be a guarantee either, unfortunately.
Well then... I make a simple post and a thread breaks out, lol. Been a busy last couple days for me and I just checked this thread for the first time and missed 112 posts since the last time I looked. I am catching up and quoting and responding along the way:
Good luck with your sales. I am guessing you will do ok. Based on some of the PWCC auctions I was following (and not winning) this week it seems like they are still getting strong prices for their listings amidst this storm.
Lol, Dan. No trolling here.
I largely agree with the reasoning in your post as a whole, but especially the part where you say people are "disproportionately mad at PSA and PWCC". I agree that it seems like there is a great deal of enmity being directed towards PSA and PWCC. I think this is largely because outside of a handful of the bad guys who have been outed, the trimmers and scammers are largely still faceless and anonymous. PSA and PWCC are huge brands and easy faces and targets for those who are rightly angered by the actions of the scammers. While anger is justified, I think the anger should be directed towards the actual trimmers/scammers.
Thanks? I guess I will take it as a compliment that my post appeared to be professionally written, lol. But no, I don't work for PWCC.
This is correct, I do not work in advertising.
Nathanael, good luck with working with PWCC to come to a resolution. I am very curious what comes of your situation and I hope you keep us all updated. Brent has gone on record on a collecting podcast (Cardboard Chronicles) saying that PWCC will make right to any customer who unwittingly purchased any altered cards that they have brokered in their auctions. This is a good test to see if PWCC's actions align with their words.
@slum22 said:
Good points above, and I see most people are upset with PWCC mainly due to the fact they can’t seem to get out of their own way with posting messages and videos that make the problem worse. Whoever advises Brent went it comes to cirisis management needs to step in and take away the microphone and keyboard - every time he makes a statement he makes it much worse. Shill bidding fiasco in 2016 showed us texts between him and Courtney where they were discussing how to bid on PWCC auction and we all remember how that turned out.
This time with altered cards a one hour video interview where his position is altering a card to the point you can’t tell it has been altered is conservation not anything nefarious. Wait. The top eBay seller after a huge discovery about a Mantle rookie card comes out and rather than take the correct position again is seemingly on the wrong side of history. Best bet would have been to say nothing. If it was my business I pull the card in question and do some research. His position Is it is not fair to the submitter of the card to pull it despite evidence showing some major issues. Maybe a big picture view is how about the buyer of the card - do they matter in all this or is it just what makes you $$ and not the overall picture.
Based on comments here and other boards people did not agree with him nor his business practices, and only time will tell the impact to PWCC’s sales and reputation long term. Short terms it appears they don’t like his ethics or arrogance and it will and has cost them customers.
KC
I wonder what the local reaction will of PWCC at the national?
Sounds like the Vault should be referred to as "The House that Scissors Built".
How much did it sale for is one of the funniest and most ignorant things I've ever heard.
The PWCC comm director is his spouse. I’ll leave that there.
That's the thing i really enjoyed.
Putting a bow on this debacle that I referenced in this thread a couple of months ago...
I purchased a 1953-54 Rocket Richard parkhurst card in March for $2800 that was certified high end. That card turned out to be a Moser altered card. After I discovered this was an altered card, I asked to void the transaction as I had consigned items with PWCC at the time and the card in question was still in their possession. After two weeks of deliberations from PWCC I was getting nowhere so I contacted Brent directly. They did void the transaction.
The consequence for me as a buyer in demanding the transaction of a proven altered card be voided has been that I am now blocked. Here's the text of the email...
_Hi Nathanael,
Thanks for reaching out. Yes, there was a block placed on your eBay user I.D. as a result the 1953 Parkhurst Rocket Richard. Unfortunately it is to close to that incident date to consider removing the block on your account. However, that block only has to do with your eBay account and it's ability to bid in our auctions, you are still more than welcome to consign with us, that wouldn't be a problem at all._
Just thought people should know what to expect when asserting yourselves in returning proven altered cards. The idea that I could consign but not bid seems kind of strange.
-Nathanael
The greed and evil is real.
_I have edited this comment. Please reserve that kind of language for other places.
Thanks, Todd_
Sorry that happened to you Frozen.
This is just further proof of the motivations and true intentions of PWCC. Even when PWCC is caught participating in fraudulent activity and appear to make the right decision and void the fraudulent transaction.....they immediately follow it by blaming/banning the victim of the fraud because he simply stood up and would not take being victim of their fraudulent activities.
I especially like the "However, that block only has to do with your eBay account and it's ability to bid in our auctions, you are still more than welcome to consign with us, that wouldn't be a problem at all."
Yes, because you are the type of company I want to do business with. lol
I once had plans to use their vault for Auction Winnings (sent right to the vault). I no longer plan to do any business with them. If I did have anything in their vault I would actually be requesting them to send me back everything...
That is very disappointing Frozencaribou. Just when you think you've heard it all. You can still consign with us? I just about fell out of my chair when I read that.
I'm glad that when I return defective merchandise to Walmart or Target I am not blocked.
Those vendors want you to buy again. The PWCC model requires buyers that don’t question the purchase. Have the one card centering issues or snow? Nothing to see here.
Thats why he can block sellers that return cards. Most of us WANT to believe.
I thought it was a cool idea at first, but I'll definitely be using my own 'vault' now.
Kris
My 1971 Topps adventure - Davis Men in Black
Ridiculous response but not surprising after all that has now come to light.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Doesn't that just do damage to their brand?
Disappointing to read.
Will you continue to consign?
That’s a terrible response. Blames the block on eBay? Come on, Brent
It's only a matter of time where his "salt of the earth" defense of employees of PWCC turns to shifting blame on them. The inability to point the finger at yourself is one of the biggest problems we face in the modern world. Everyone is looking for someone to blame.
Thanks for the support, guys. If I had innocently sold an altered card to someone and they found out and brought it to my attention, I would be apologetic and want to make up for the situation any way I could. It doesn't make any sense to me why a seller would handle it any other way.
I am done consigning with PWCC. I am done bidding on their auctions. After all that has come to light, and how they have treated me personally, I don't intend to interact with them again. I chose to share my experience here so people know what they are getting into if they want to buy or consign with them.
-Nathanael
I had a different scenario with the same outcome -- they blocked me after I've won around $10K worth of auctions and bid on more than double that (even if I don't win, my higher bids helped them realize a higher final sale price). Granted, my scenario was different -- I returned a card that I felt was overgraded -- but I felt they should honor the return because the way they described it did not fit the card. They did take the return, blocked me, then relisted and sold the card to some poor winner (went for $2,750 on the re-listed auction). The fact they re-listed the card nad used the exact same description for the card totally amazed me -- I mean they knew about the flaw in the card but still talked it up in their listing... I will never deal with them again...
the article got deleted ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
nice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama