@80sOPC said:
I would caution anyone considering using offsite storage for cards to read up on some of the issues wine collectors have had with offsite storage. In short, your stuff is safe till it isn’t and don’t expect the vendors insurance to cover any loss. You will still want to carry insurance and if you vendor runs into financial trouble, look out.
Not suggesting that pwcc isn’t trustworthy but there are lots of wine collectors that have been burnt by very similar models.
Bottom line I would use the vault short term to sell items, long term storage no chance I give a small business high priced cards that are easily stored at home or at a bank.
All valid points, but banks aren’t fail safe either.
" For me, it is simply a realization that the value of some of my cards ($60k-$25k) makes me uncomfortable storing them in my home. "
Does'nt he charge 1% of the value per year? isnt that like 600.00 a year to store your 1 card? I have a safe-deposit box that I pay 120.00 a year for and I sleep well at night because of it. And I have tons of room in it. Also down the street if I ever need.
They aren’t, employee theft is possible. But insolvency is highly unlikely and they have controls in place that is light years ahead of a smb in Oregon that wants your 150k in collectables. These models usually go bad when the proprietor runs into financial trouble, a big bank in the US or Canada is mostly immune to this.
For how flaky our hobby is, I find it crazy that anyone would send their valuables away for long term storage with a relatively new, relatively small company. I see close to zero upside - anyone that has a 6 figure investment in sports cards has to have secure housing and the resources to secure their cards at home. I mean the biggest fear is someone we don’t know gets into our space and has access to our cards, so the counter is to put our valuables in a space full of people we don’t know? Seems counter intuitive.
@80sOPC said:
I would caution anyone considering using offsite storage for cards to read up on some of the issues wine collectors have had with offsite storage. In short, your stuff is safe till it isn’t and don’t expect the vendors insurance to cover any loss. You will still want to carry insurance and if you vendor runs into financial trouble, look out.
Not suggesting that pwcc isn’t trustworthy but there are lots of wine collectors that have been burnt by very similar models.
Bottom line I would use the vault short term to sell items, long term storage no chance I give a small business high priced cards that are easily stored at home or at a bank.
All valid points, but banks aren’t fail safe either.
@Kep13 said:
For the good of all and this hobby and card grading -- I just sit here and wonder, if I were a card grader going thru thousands of cards a day, how would I be able to tell these altered cards from an unaltered example? It sucks that a handful of people have to abuse the system, but when money is involved (and in these cases a lot of money), the crooks will crawl out of the woodwork.
Professional graders are supposed to able to tell a trimmed edge versus a factory cut. There are distinguishing cut marks. Also, even if some of these altered cards bear no "evidence" of trimming, many still did not appear to meet minimum size requirements for the issue and should not have been slabbed.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
The OP post looks like it was written by a professional shadow advertising company. After all that has come out about PWCC, this post just happens to appear? lol
@sportscardtheory said:
The OP post looks like it was written by a professional shadow advertising company. After all that has come out about PWCC, this post just happens to appear? lol
Considering I personally know the OP (and many other CU members do too) I can assure you that your conspiracy theory is unfounded. In fact, I sell advertising and he most definitely does not.
About the Vault, does anyone know how PWCC proposes to deal with a deceased person’s executor? That is, will the Vault be like a bank’s safety deposit box that an executor will be able to access to perform his/her duties?
The current negative vibe on the board and on the BO board would indicate that, based on everything Brent appears to be doing, PWCC would benefit from unclaimed vault items.
@sportscardtheory said:
The OP post looks like it was written by a professional shadow advertising company. After all that has come out about PWCC, this post just happens to appear? lol
Considering I personally know the OP (and many other CU members do too) I can assure you that your conspiracy theory is unfounded. In fact, I sell advertising and he most definitely does not.
I concur with Dan, I know Steve and he is really interested in getting feedback. Just bad timing with the other stuff going on right now.
Hi Dan.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
@LGC said:
About the Vault, does anyone know how PWCC proposes to deal with a deceased person’s executor? That is, will the Vault be like a bank’s safety deposit box that an executor will be able to access to perform his/her duties?
The current negative vibe on the board and on the BO board would indicate that, based on everything Brent appears to be doing, PWCC would benefit from unclaimed vault items.
PWCC would not benefit as most states have unclaimed property laws and PWCC would have to eventually hand over the unclaimed vault items to the state for auction.
To get back to the OP, there are other avenues such as a regular bank safe deposit box than having PWCC hold onto your cards. There are also other issues with the Vault concept that I find troubling and would not be a vehicle I would recommend.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
@LGC said:
About the Vault, does anyone know how PWCC proposes to deal with a deceased person’s executor? That is, will the Vault be like a bank’s safety deposit box that an executor will be able to access to perform his/her duties?
The current negative vibe on the board and on the BO board would indicate that, based on everything Brent appears to be doing, PWCC would benefit from unclaimed vault items.
PWCC would not benefit as most states have unclaimed property laws and PWCC would have to eventually hand over the unclaimed vault items to the state for auction.
To get back to the OP, there are other avenues such as a regular bank safe deposit box than having PWCC hold onto your cards. There are also other issues with the Vault concept that I find troubling and would not be a vehicle I would recommend.
Thank you!
So PWCC would have to hand over unclaimed items in compliance with the laws of the state and what compels PWCC to comply with the laws is that they are good corporate citizens.
@LGC said:
About the Vault, does anyone know how PWCC proposes to deal with a deceased person’s executor? That is, will the Vault be like a bank’s safety deposit box that an executor will be able to access to perform his/her duties?
The current negative vibe on the board and on the BO board would indicate that, based on everything Brent appears to be doing, PWCC would benefit from unclaimed vault items.
PWCC would not benefit as most states have unclaimed property laws and PWCC would have to eventually hand over the unclaimed vault items to the state for auction.
To get back to the OP, there are other avenues such as a regular bank safe deposit box than having PWCC hold onto your cards. There are also other issues with the Vault concept that I find troubling and would not be a vehicle I would recommend.
Sales and use tax?
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
@1970s said:
I enjoy my collectibles way too much for anyone else to hold onto them. Collecting is a fun thing for me. I enjoy escaping back into my childhood every once in a while in my private room. It's locked by the way, and only I have the key.
Yes, this Vault concept seems to be more in tune for investors vs. collectors. It seems like PWCC is making a play to broker sales through the vault instead of being tied to eBay. I would not label myself an investor by any means but I am interested in the concept of the Vault and where it is headed. I am curious if they will get the cards they need to create their own marketplace free from eBay. It seems like their Vault could be a super high end COMC.
I dont see the items for sale..just for display though
@AFLfan said:
Thank you for keeping things civil. It is appreciated.
Todd,
Any chance we will hear from PSA on the 800lb gorilla in the room? Not looking for a discussion thread but perhaps a pinned and locked thread like the one regarding turnaround times by @mrstevesloan? Not to comment on other parties involved such as PWCC but on how PSA is planning to address the concerns we, their customers and most ardent supporters, have regarding the findings on other forums that there are altered cards currently in PSA holders?
Sincerely,
Kevin
Yes, I am sure that you will. I don't know all of the details, but Steve Sloan is a thorough guy. He is currently learning all that he can before making a statement. Whenever a decision or statement is made, he wants to be sure he is doing so with as much knowledge and understanding of the situation as possible. That likely doesn't sound helpful in the immediate, but rest assured that the situation is not being ignored.
One segment where I think there is a great chance that they will use this service are foreign buyers. Many try and get their assets into US dollars and they could arguably store a nice amount of cards that are in US dollars so they win for getting them out of their currency and if they go up in value they win even bigger. Plus they have the scans and can post them if they so desire.
With the boom in basketball and gaming out of Asia this might be a specific segment he saw and part of the motivation.
@Kep13 said:
For the good of all and this hobby and card grading -- I just sit here and wonder, if I were a card grader going thru thousands of cards a day, how would I be able to tell these altered cards from an unaltered example? It sucks that a handful of people have to abuse the system, but when money is involved (and in these cases a lot of money), the crooks will crawl out of the woodwork.
Professional graders are supposed to able to tell a trimmed edge versus a factory cut. There are distinguishing cut marks. Also, even if some of these altered cards bear no "evidence" of trimming, many still did not appear to meet minimum size requirements for the issue and should not have been slabbed.
all i know is there are some super sleuths over on BO doing yeoman's work. if any of them are reading this, i for one appreciate what you're doing. incredibly sad to say, but it's clear that this type of destruction would go on largely unabated without plebians willing to dig deep for the good of the hobby. at least maybe this will be akin to tossing a spike strip onto the road until parties with more prominent roles actually step up to the plate and exert their authority.
@galaxy27 said:
all i know is there are some super sleuths over on BO doing yeoman's work. if any of them are reading this, i for one appreciate what you're doing. incredibly sad to say, but it's clear that this type of destruction would go on largely unabated without plebians willing to dig deep for the good of the hobby. at least maybe this will be akin to tossing a spike strip onto the road until parties with more prominent roles actually step up to the plate and exert their authority.
Sleuths ? Yeomans ? Plebians ?
Good Lord I didn't score high enough on my SAT's. Damn it. Or did this guy watch a lot of Star Trek as a kid ?
you collected george brett's cards instead of mike schmidt's
edit: in haste to leave work i misspelled plebeian if that makes you feel any better
I got back into the hobby eleven years ago, and joined this forum ten years ago. I have proudly shared my collection here.
I believe in PSA and my own eye as a secondary source of security, as someone who has handled cards since I was five. Now I am struggling to accept that I purchased a card last month from PWCC that is highlighted in the Blowout thread. As a proud lifelong collector, I feel pretty stupid.
Just like deserticesports, I am not in this hobby for greed. I also am not in this hobby to be made a fool.
I know for one thing- card dimensions just became more important to me than ever before.
I got back into the hobby eleven years ago, and joined this forum ten years ago. I have proudly shared my collection here.
I believe in PSA and my own eye as a secondary source of security, as someone who has handled cards since I was five. Now I am struggling to accept that I purchased a card last month from PWCC that is highlighted in the Blowout thread. As a proud lifelong collector, I feel pretty stupid.
Just like deserticesports, I am not in this hobby for greed. I also am not in this hobby to be made a fool.
I know for one thing- card dimensions just became more important to me than ever before.
-Nathanael
When exactly? If under 30 days, ‘item not as described’ may work.
You know, since it’s not as described.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I got back into the hobby eleven years ago, and joined this forum ten years ago. I have proudly shared my collection here.
I believe in PSA and my own eye as a secondary source of security, as someone who has handled cards since I was five. Now I am struggling to accept that I purchased a card last month from PWCC that is highlighted in the Blowout thread. As a proud lifelong collector, I feel pretty stupid.
Just like deserticesports, I am not in this hobby for greed. I also am not in this hobby to be made a fool.
I know for one thing- card dimensions just became more important to me than ever before.
-Nathanael
When exactly? If under 30 days, ‘item not as described’ may work.
I just got a chance to look at all of the altered cards on sports card radio's website, and I'm stunned. I didn't realize how big this scandal has become. It has become alterationgate.
@Frozencaribou said:
I got back into the hobby eleven years ago, and joined this forum ten years ago. I have proudly shared my collection here.
I believe in PSA and my own eye as a secondary source of security, as someone who has handled cards since I was five. Now I am struggling to accept that I purchased a card last month from PWCC that is highlighted in the Blowout thread. As a proud lifelong collector, I feel pretty stupid.
Just like deserticesports, I am not in this hobby for greed. I also am not in this hobby to be made a fool.
I know for one thing- card dimensions just became more important to me than ever before.
-Nathanael
You should be able to get your money back. There was another member there that found out his card had been altered and i'm pretty sure that after shipping it back he was refunded what he spent. i'd just contact PWCC and go from there.
The matter isn't resolved yet. I am waiting for resolution from PWCC. I will report back on how it is handled. The wrinkle is that I consigned to the next auction instead of paying the invoice through eBay. Therefore it is something that I trust PWCC will make right. I've dealt with PWCC for years and hopefully they will do the right thing here.
@Frozencaribou said:
I got back into the hobby eleven years ago, and joined this forum ten years ago. I have proudly shared my collection here.
I believe in PSA and my own eye as a secondary source of security, as someone who has handled cards since I was five. Now I am struggling to accept that I purchased a card last month from PWCC that is highlighted in the Blowout thread. As a proud lifelong collector, I feel pretty stupid.
Just like deserticesports, I am not in this hobby for greed. I also am not in this hobby to be made a fool.
I know for one thing- card dimensions just became more important to me than ever before.
-Nathanael
Don't feel stupid, it's not your fault. At least your a good person. That's more than I can say for the scum that trim and alter these cards.
@doubledragon said:
I just got a chance to look at all of the altered cards on sports card radio's website, and I'm stunned. I didn't realize how big this scandal has become. It has become alterationgate.
BO is one of the gems of the entire sports card industry. They hold people accountable with evidence and fact and rarely hearsay. In an industry ripe with criminal acts (fraud, theft, and more) you have a people dedicated to exposing these individuals all for the love of this hobby.
@doubledragon said:
I just got a chance to look at all of the altered cards on sports card radio's website, and I'm stunned. I didn't realize how big this scandal has become. It has become alterationgate.
I got back into the hobby eleven years ago, and joined this forum ten years ago. I have proudly shared my collection here.
I believe in PSA and my own eye as a secondary source of security, as someone who has handled cards since I was five. Now I am struggling to accept that I purchased a card last month from PWCC that is highlighted in the Blowout thread. As a proud lifelong collector, I feel pretty stupid.
Just like deserticesports, I am not in this hobby for greed. I also am not in this hobby to be made a fool.
I know for one thing- card dimensions just became more important to me than ever before.
-Nathanael
When exactly? If under 30 days, ‘item not as described’ may work.
You know, since it’s not as described.
Does the TPG buy the card?
From what I have read and with the soundness of PSA, I suppose that is an option, too.
But the more I think about it, I come back to the fact that the timing of this all coinciding with the release of ‘Tenets’ that basically espouse the theory that ‘it’s totally cool to sell altered/conserved cards’ is just ill conceived and clearly not being well received. They seem disingenuous and deceptive now.
And at least for now, I am encouraged by the silence coming from PSA. I say that because I’m interpreting public silence as private investigation. I would want to make sure I know the depth and breadth of this before opening my mouth. Due diligence is required here.
But again, I’m a collector and self submitter so I have more peace of mind than some others. And greater faith in the publicly traded company.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
However, too much silence can be deafening. It is great to see PSA not jumping the gun on this and performing their due diligence, but, PSA is the industry leader and it's almost solely based off peoples trust in their grading services. Because of the trust in their product people generally pay a higher premium for say a card of the same grade from a competitor. I can guarantee there is a wide audience at the moment simply waiting with anticipation to see how PSA will respond. I do think they should not wait too long to respond. The entire sports grading industry might be at stake which is a scary thought!
@doubledragon said:
I just got a chance to look at all of the altered cards on sports card radio's website, and I'm stunned. I didn't realize how big this scandal has become. It has become alterationgate.
I am shocked. I did not know all of this. Especially the part about the text messages from Brent, directing a customer to shill bid. Unbelievable.
Forgive me, but this article appears to state that Courtney has died? Isn't he the one that came on here a ways back ranting about PWCC? Anyone know what happened?
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
Thanks to Todd for the update and for letting the discussion remain on the forum.
Regarding the title of this thread, my answer would be 'no'. That was my answer before the latest dust-up as well. I just don't see the value in it. But then again, I'm a collector. If I was treating cards like stocks, maybe it would be more appealing.
@doubledragon said:
I just got a chance to look at all of the altered cards on sports card radio's website, and I'm stunned. I didn't realize how big this scandal has become. It has become alterationgate.
I am shocked. I did not know all of this. Especially the part about the text messages from Brent, directing a customer to shill bid. Unbelievable.
Yeah Brent. What the heck is that all about ??? Is that true ???
And what about his wife saying that a person can bid on their own cards they submit for auction. That they don't determine that as shill bidding as long as they pay for it if they win ?
Is this the accepted norm in the hobby ? I always thought that shill bidding was placing a bid on your own auction ? Bidding on your own auctions is highly unethical according to many.
From a legal standpoint, this comes down to the laws in the state in which you reside. I know this because it has come up in the past with respect to other auction houses. Simply put, some states allow for it, others do not.
My feelings is a one off could be explained away (consigners remorse) while a pattern can not. And the purported evidence that has come to light has revealed patterns of behavior that need explanations, not denials and double speak.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@doubledragon said:
I just got a chance to look at all of the altered cards on sports card radio's website, and I'm stunned. I didn't realize how big this scandal has become. It has become alterationgate.
I am shocked. I did not know all of this. Especially the part about the text messages from Brent, directing a customer to shill bid. Unbelievable.
Yeah Brent. What the heck is that all about ??? Is that true ???
And what about his wife saying that a person can bid on their own cards they submit for auction. That they don't determine that as shill bidding as long as they pay for it if they win ?
Is this the accepted norm in the hobby ? I always thought that shill bidding was placing a bid on your own auction ? Bidding on your own auctions is highly unethical according to many.
The term "shill bidding" is thrown around a lot. Technically, it means that the owner of the item can bid on it without these terms explicitly being stated to the other bidders. Yes, some people argue that "hyping" or "pumping" an auction isn't technically "shilling" but it is if the other bidders are not explicitly made aware that the owner can bid. The auction houses have operated on the theory of "plausible deniability" all these years and pretend they don't know what is going on when, in fact, they certainly do.
I read through this, the threads at BO and the radiosports guy's blog and it is all way too depressing. It seems like the "beginning of the end" for the investment side of the hobby, which will in turn bring all prices down. The fraud is way more prevalent than most people believe, and we have seen only the tip of the ice burg here.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
For Brent to direct a consignor to bid on his own item, is just flat out unethical. If I were a bidder in that auction, I would be livid after reading those text messages.
@doubledragon said:
For Brent to direct a consignor to bid on his own item, is just flat out unethical. If I were a bidder in that auction, I would be livid after reading those text messages.
Words like ‘purportedly’, ‘allegedly’ and ‘potentially’ help keep threads like these alive.
We all have to remember that this is the internet and people have agendas, too. Cards can be doctored but so can scans, texts, screen caps, etc.
I SAY THIS ALL WITH ONE SPECIFIC MOTIVE:
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
We’ve been warned once already about jumping to conclusions and painting with broad strokes. Looking around society in general, validating sources and verifying information is a bit of a lost art these days. By definition, a thorough investigation can’t happen quickly.
And these types of problems desperately need a thorough investigation.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I will never use PWCC for anything. I for one am glad PSA hasn’t made a statement yet. That tells me several things;
1) They are working diligently to verify what’s come out as altered
2) They May be trying to get back some cards outed as altered
3) They very well could have current submissions in and are cross-checking them against previous graded cards to determine if alteration has taken place, and taking note of what to look for.
4) They are working on establishing new procedures for grading cards to prevent future alterations from slipping through.
My apologies for getting off topic, but I have every bit of confidence in PSA on this.
@balco758 said:
Are folks actually measuring cards upon receipt from a seller? If so, geesh. Not even sure I would trust my own eyes to make the right assessment.
Absolutely. For as long as some of us have been receiving them. Amongst other tactics of examination, verifying specs is vital, but not the gospel. Ya gotta know ALL the tricks to keep up with these folks.
Comments
All valid points, but banks aren’t fail safe either.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
There have been some pretty obvious issues not caught so I am wondering if it is the speed element that is causing the issue
" For me, it is simply a realization that the value of some of my cards ($60k-$25k) makes me uncomfortable storing them in my home. "
Does'nt he charge 1% of the value per year? isnt that like 600.00 a year to store your 1 card? I have a safe-deposit box that I pay 120.00 a year for and I sleep well at night because of it. And I have tons of room in it. Also down the street if I ever need.
They aren’t, employee theft is possible. But insolvency is highly unlikely and they have controls in place that is light years ahead of a smb in Oregon that wants your 150k in collectables. These models usually go bad when the proprietor runs into financial trouble, a big bank in the US or Canada is mostly immune to this.
For how flaky our hobby is, I find it crazy that anyone would send their valuables away for long term storage with a relatively new, relatively small company. I see close to zero upside - anyone that has a 6 figure investment in sports cards has to have secure housing and the resources to secure their cards at home. I mean the biggest fear is someone we don’t know gets into our space and has access to our cards, so the counter is to put our valuables in a space full of people we don’t know? Seems counter intuitive.
Professional graders are supposed to able to tell a trimmed edge versus a factory cut. There are distinguishing cut marks. Also, even if some of these altered cards bear no "evidence" of trimming, many still did not appear to meet minimum size requirements for the issue and should not have been slabbed.
The OP post looks like it was written by a professional shadow advertising company. After all that has come out about PWCC, this post just happens to appear? lol
Considering I personally know the OP (and many other CU members do too) I can assure you that your conspiracy theory is unfounded. In fact, I sell advertising and he most definitely does not.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
About the Vault, does anyone know how PWCC proposes to deal with a deceased person’s executor? That is, will the Vault be like a bank’s safety deposit box that an executor will be able to access to perform his/her duties?
The current negative vibe on the board and on the BO board would indicate that, based on everything Brent appears to be doing, PWCC would benefit from unclaimed vault items.
I concur with Dan, I know Steve and he is really interested in getting feedback. Just bad timing with the other stuff going on right now.
Hi Dan.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
PWCC would not benefit as most states have unclaimed property laws and PWCC would have to eventually hand over the unclaimed vault items to the state for auction.
To get back to the OP, there are other avenues such as a regular bank safe deposit box than having PWCC hold onto your cards. There are also other issues with the Vault concept that I find troubling and would not be a vehicle I would recommend.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Thank you!
So PWCC would have to hand over unclaimed items in compliance with the laws of the state and what compels PWCC to comply with the laws is that they are good corporate citizens.
Sales and use tax?
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
I dont see the items for sale..just for display though
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
What the hell happened lmao
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
One segment where I think there is a great chance that they will use this service are foreign buyers. Many try and get their assets into US dollars and they could arguably store a nice amount of cards that are in US dollars so they win for getting them out of their currency and if they go up in value they win even bigger. Plus they have the scans and can post them if they so desire.
With the boom in basketball and gaming out of Asia this might be a specific segment he saw and part of the motivation.
Y see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
all i know is there are some super sleuths over on BO doing yeoman's work. if any of them are reading this, i for one appreciate what you're doing. incredibly sad to say, but it's clear that this type of destruction would go on largely unabated without plebians willing to dig deep for the good of the hobby. at least maybe this will be akin to tossing a spike strip onto the road until parties with more prominent roles actually step up to the plate and exert their authority.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
I don't need a vault to protect my cards. Luckily, we own a Basset Hound.
you collected george brett's cards instead of mike schmidt's
edit: in haste to leave work i misspelled plebeian if that makes you feel any better
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
This is how I picture the people pretending the recent card alteration scandal is no big deal.
I got back into the hobby eleven years ago, and joined this forum ten years ago. I have proudly shared my collection here.
I believe in PSA and my own eye as a secondary source of security, as someone who has handled cards since I was five. Now I am struggling to accept that I purchased a card last month from PWCC that is highlighted in the Blowout thread. As a proud lifelong collector, I feel pretty stupid.
Just like deserticesports, I am not in this hobby for greed. I also am not in this hobby to be made a fool.
I know for one thing- card dimensions just became more important to me than ever before.
-Nathanael
@Frozencaribou said:
When exactly? If under 30 days, ‘item not as described’ may work.
You know, since it’s not as described.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Does the TPG buy the card?
PWCC runs auctions through eBay. eBay has buyer protection in place. Supersedes seller policies.
Seems applicable.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I just got a chance to look at all of the altered cards on sports card radio's website, and I'm stunned. I didn't realize how big this scandal has become. It has become alterationgate.
You should be able to get your money back. There was another member there that found out his card had been altered and i'm pretty sure that after shipping it back he was refunded what he spent. i'd just contact PWCC and go from there.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
The matter isn't resolved yet. I am waiting for resolution from PWCC. I will report back on how it is handled. The wrinkle is that I consigned to the next auction instead of paying the invoice through eBay. Therefore it is something that I trust PWCC will make right. I've dealt with PWCC for years and hopefully they will do the right thing here.
-Nathanael
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
As for the flippers and investors looking to make a quick buck> @Frozencaribou said:
» show previous quotes
When exactly? If under 30 days, ‘item not as described’ may work.
You know, since it’s not as described.
Does the TPG buy the card?
Don't feel stupid, it's not your fault. At least your a good person. That's more than I can say for the scum that trim and alter these cards.
http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-moser-pwcc-marketplace-card-trimming-shill-bidding-scam/
BO is one of the gems of the entire sports card industry. They hold people accountable with evidence and fact and rarely hearsay. In an industry ripe with criminal acts (fraud, theft, and more) you have a people dedicated to exposing these individuals all for the love of this hobby.
I am shocked. I did not know all of this. Especially the part about the text messages from Brent, directing a customer to shill bid. Unbelievable.
From what I have read and with the soundness of PSA, I suppose that is an option, too.
But the more I think about it, I come back to the fact that the timing of this all coinciding with the release of ‘Tenets’ that basically espouse the theory that ‘it’s totally cool to sell altered/conserved cards’ is just ill conceived and clearly not being well received. They seem disingenuous and deceptive now.
And at least for now, I am encouraged by the silence coming from PSA. I say that because I’m interpreting public silence as private investigation. I would want to make sure I know the depth and breadth of this before opening my mouth. Due diligence is required here.
But again, I’m a collector and self submitter so I have more peace of mind than some others. And greater faith in the publicly traded company.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
May be poof soon
However, too much silence can be deafening. It is great to see PSA not jumping the gun on this and performing their due diligence, but, PSA is the industry leader and it's almost solely based off peoples trust in their grading services. Because of the trust in their product people generally pay a higher premium for say a card of the same grade from a competitor. I can guarantee there is a wide audience at the moment simply waiting with anticipation to see how PSA will respond. I do think they should not wait too long to respond. The entire sports grading industry might be at stake which is a scary thought!
Forgive me, but this article appears to state that Courtney has died? Isn't he the one that came on here a ways back ranting about PWCC? Anyone know what happened?
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
Thanks to Todd for the update and for letting the discussion remain on the forum.
Regarding the title of this thread, my answer would be 'no'. That was my answer before the latest dust-up as well. I just don't see the value in it. But then again, I'm a collector. If I was treating cards like stocks, maybe it would be more appealing.
Are folks actually measuring cards upon receipt from a seller? If so, geesh. Not even sure I would trust my own eyes to make the right assessment.
From a legal standpoint, this comes down to the laws in the state in which you reside. I know this because it has come up in the past with respect to other auction houses. Simply put, some states allow for it, others do not.
My feelings is a one off could be explained away (consigners remorse) while a pattern can not. And the purported evidence that has come to light has revealed patterns of behavior that need explanations, not denials and double speak.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
The term "shill bidding" is thrown around a lot. Technically, it means that the owner of the item can bid on it without these terms explicitly being stated to the other bidders. Yes, some people argue that "hyping" or "pumping" an auction isn't technically "shilling" but it is if the other bidders are not explicitly made aware that the owner can bid. The auction houses have operated on the theory of "plausible deniability" all these years and pretend they don't know what is going on when, in fact, they certainly do.
I read through this, the threads at BO and the radiosports guy's blog and it is all way too depressing. It seems like the "beginning of the end" for the investment side of the hobby, which will in turn bring all prices down. The fraud is way more prevalent than most people believe, and we have seen only the tip of the ice burg here.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
For Brent to direct a consignor to bid on his own item, is just flat out unethical. If I were a bidder in that auction, I would be livid after reading those text messages.
Words like ‘purportedly’, ‘allegedly’ and ‘potentially’ help keep threads like these alive.
We all have to remember that this is the internet and people have agendas, too. Cards can be doctored but so can scans, texts, screen caps, etc.
I SAY THIS ALL WITH ONE SPECIFIC MOTIVE:
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
We’ve been warned once already about jumping to conclusions and painting with broad strokes. Looking around society in general, validating sources and verifying information is a bit of a lost art these days. By definition, a thorough investigation can’t happen quickly.
And these types of problems desperately need a thorough investigation.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I will never use PWCC for anything. I for one am glad PSA hasn’t made a statement yet. That tells me several things;
1) They are working diligently to verify what’s come out as altered
2) They May be trying to get back some cards outed as altered
3) They very well could have current submissions in and are cross-checking them against previous graded cards to determine if alteration has taken place, and taking note of what to look for.
4) They are working on establishing new procedures for grading cards to prevent future alterations from slipping through.
My apologies for getting off topic, but I have every bit of confidence in PSA on this.
Absolutely. For as long as some of us have been receiving them. Amongst other tactics of examination, verifying specs is vital, but not the gospel. Ya gotta know ALL the tricks to keep up with these folks.
Enjoy the go.