Coins you love that didn't pass CAC
jkrk
Posts: 992 ✭✭✭✭✭
With all the banter about the control that CAC has on the market I thought I would show a coin that I love that didn't pass.
13
Comments
It would be educational if one could state why it didn’t sticker. Otherwise I fear the reaper
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This seems to be an expert board. Since I know nothing about coins I am not qualified to say. Is a late stage die crack on the reverse reason enough?
If anyone can tell from a smallish scan the answer will be forth coming.
Cac had their reason. I trust their judgement.
I have loads of them. If I remember to ask, they're usually kind enough to include a note about why they didn't give a coin a sticker. For this one, the note said, "cleaned - long ago." I don't care. I looked long and hard for this coin and I'm dang happy to own it.
Here's another. On this one, there was no comment. I like it the best of any of the common-date, high-grade Barber dimes offered in HA's Lily Nicole sale. Our hosts like it enough to give it a plus. On this one, I'm at a loss, but I like it no less without a sticker.
It’s going to be a crap shoot off of pics. What I meant if anyone had JA’s reason for not stickering it could be educational. I’ve learned A LOT on a couple of examples. It will help me personally going forward
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
And just to be impish, this coin didn't pass when I sent it in:
But this one did:
For those of you following along at home, yes, yes indeed it is the same coin.
Very interesting, thank you all for sharing !!!
Beware of revealing too much information or you'll be branded with the "scarlet cert number" when it comes time to sell.
There is a definite market for CAC coins... there is also one for slabbed coins without a sticker.... and, believe it or not, there is a market for raw coins!! HORRORS!!! No, say it isn't so.....
Cheers, RickO
There is a market for tarnished coins too.
@cameonut2011 .... Yes indeed there is....and I am happy about that... takes the focus off blast white coins and gives me a chance....
Cheers, RickO
Nice coins that they did not get his sticker would not prevent me buying them.
This is only piece I have which I know flunked at CAC. This is Scott Confederate Restrike Half Dollar, which is an odd piece. It is in a MS-62 holder. You can't grade these pieces by the obverse becuase it was partially crushed when the reverse with struck ... with an old rusty die. I got a pretty good deal on it, and the reason probably was because it flunked at CAC.
I don't own any coins that I KNOW have flunked at CAC.
However, I DO own many coins that I'm quite certain have never been submitted.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Yes, just spoke with him yesterday about a group that didn't pass. Insanely valuable service they offer for those interested in learning which everyone should be no matter how good. Every time I talk to John I pick up a thing or two he is so generous with his time too.
For purposes of the thread here is one that didn't pass:
PCGS 65
The color to him was from heating the coin. I was about 95% sure that was going to be the result because I've had a similar coin fail in the past for that reason but this coin is such a knockout in hand, the luster is fantastic and to me even though it's questionable I love the color. He also mentioned, like we all know, there is a gray area and he can only make his best educated guess with QC coins from his experience and just because that's his opinion doesn't take away from coins that have great eye appeal or superior technical aspects. That last part is pretty relevant to a thread like this I think.
Liked, not loved. Didn't have time to get to love it.
It's gone now.
But still on a Make offer to owner status.
I own several coins that have failed to sticker. Here's one:
All of mine must have failed as none have any kind of a sticker on them.
One of the best posts of the year. Perfect illustration of the human factor and the dangers of blind faith.
This is what some would have you believe, anyway.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I still love this coin even though it was not stickered!
Sorry but not one coin, slabbed and naked, doesn't have any kind of sticker on them. No CAC, BW, PQ, et al period. I have never submitted to CAC but have recently purchased some coins, without stickers. No sticker means.........
I just bought a nice PCGS AU58 1849 Seated half with all the money I saved not submitting coins to CAC.
The purpose of this thread
Much was already said is....
1)Educational - if those can tell why CAC failed the coin?
2)To show that some of us are CAC buyers (and often with a premium attached). Some are not (believing that the price differential is factored in by the marketplace.
3)Even "orphans" (those that failed CAC) are love).
Every coin priced correctly relative to all others in the subset are desirable.
I don’t know of anything I own flunked at CAC. Many 3 star players in 100-200 range so doubt any been to CAC. For 2 star and lower really a moot who cares issue. Some 4 star (200- 500 range) a few already CAC others PQ doubt been to CAC. Various 5 star (above 500) players Quality low pop slabbed world gold - CAC not even a factor there.
I just love this !!! It wasn't nice as a 50, but it is nice as a 53 !!! Point proven!
Thanks for highlighting the striking revelation that expert graders aren’t perfectly consistent. 😉
Somehow, I suspect that you wouldn’t take such delight if it were PCGS that rendered a similar inconsistent opinion.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Actually Mark PCGS was inconsistent, the coin was 50 on one day and 53 on another, point proven!
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Good point. But obviously, that doesn’t count.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The fact that the 1843 dollar regraded to AU 53 doesn't shock me in the least. That it stickered as an AU 53 suggests to me that they saw something they didn't like the first time through but didn't see whatever it was on the second trip.
And in keeping with this thread here is one that was actually sent in for me by Mr. Feld when he was still working as a dealer which did not bean at that time.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Not a point at all. Coins get upgraded all the time. What makes me smile is this proves CAC means nothing ….. when a coin will fail as a 50 and pass as a 53 !!! This speaks volume's!
So PCGS got it wrong or right (hard to say which grade is correct) but they are saintly, CAC got it wrong or right and they are the devil. The Kool-Aid is strong with you.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
And just to be fair here is a PCGS coin that failed on that same submission as the barber I posted.
I do not know why these two coins failed (I had 12 coins in that order two failed and one gold) however I suspect that the more satin like luster on both was what JA didn't care for.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I don't want to argue any more. If CAC was half as almighty as some here seem to think they would have stickered the coin as a 50 and not as a 53. They blew it both ways. End of story for me.
It does not speak volumes. It’s one weird thing that happened once. Big deal. It’s hardly a Brasher Doubloon. The difference in value for this coin is meaningless. Grades are opinions. Graders are human. Coins do not have a God-given grade that graders discern with divining rods or crystal balls.
Y’all need to pay less attention to single anecdotes and recognize large trends in a huge market. On average, the TPGs and CAC do a great and consistent job. It is EASY to find a few inconsistencies. I’m sure it happens at your job too. Sheesh!
How many years transpired on the upgrading of that 1843 dollar from ogh AU50 to an AU53? Everyone is aware that from the 1990's to the present that grading has not remained static? That same coin graded in 1987 could have been XF45. And in 10 yrs from now it could be AU55 or even AU50 again. Grading is not constant...and operates on a bell curve along with most of mankind and nature. The same coin can get a different grade in multiple appearances. This is what it means to be human.
And here I was going to coin the phrase, (pardon the pun), "CACflation".
TOTALLY AGREE !!!
So either you’re also saying that grades by companies that upgrade “all the time” also “means nothing” and “speaks volumes” or you’re incredibly inconsistent/biased. Which is it?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's important to remember, when discussing PCGS grades, we see pics on a coin forum--not a great basis for a strong opinion. Also, the grader sees the coin for just a few seconds. And, the grader that gave the coin a 50 is probably not the same grader that sees the coin on resubmission...
Oh, and if they all were perfectly consistent, revenue would plummet!
10 posts w/ pictures of coins and 35 posts of yapping (including mine)
Oh-well the OP had a nice idea.
My Saint Set
Oops! I forgot about this one. This 1851-O gold dollar failed a CAC. It is in an MS-63 holder. The dealer who had it totally disagreed with CAC and PCGS. He sent it in a couple times to get an MS-64. Obviously it failed. I made a counter offer on it, which he said was below his cost, and he accepted it. I think that it is an MS-63, but not a 64.
I was a bit surprised that this one did not CAC. JA says there is some schmutz in the field under the word Hawaii. I didn't see it when I was sitting across his desk and I still don't see it today. Does not matter that much to me as I will only buy a coin when I am comfortable with the grade on the label. But with that said, I found the sit down with JA to be a wonderfully educational experience.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
this is a tough group. This is one example out of thousands and thousands of coins CAC reviewed. Even JA admitted in his recent interview that this happens on occassion. No one claims he is perfect but he is very good. It seems like his critics hold only him to an impossible standard of perfection. I'm glad he corrected his mistake and stickered this coin. Making a decision about CAC based upon a few "mistakes" and ignoring the thousands he gets right seems obviously misguided.
And then turn around and say that his supporters think he's perfect. It is odd.
Coin collecting is the perfect storm for confirmation bias to run amok. There's a multitude of different biases out there and literally millions of events to choose the ones that support your bias from. Hate CAC? Easy just find an example like above, even if it's one in 10,000 and boom it's "SEE I TOLD YOU THEY HAVE NO CREDIBILITY!!!". Hate TPGs? Just sort through a thousand Morgans and find an overgrade and tell everyone "SEE TPGS CAN'T BE TRUSTED!!!!".
I, for one, am amazed at how incredibly good all the TPGs are at what they do as well as CAC. They do an impossible job insanely well.
I'm not sure I understand the controversy? You are free to buy whatever you like.
All else being equal, I would rather have CAC coins. My decisions on coins is always based on relative value. I will always pay a premium for CAC coins. I believe JA is one of the top graders in the industry. Is he perfect? NO. That's all you've proved.
The question in my mind is always how much premium should the CAC coin sell for? Sometimes I look to the non CAC coin as better value.
I fully understand that no grading system is not perfect. Are you arguing that we should go back to the wild west and only buy raw coins since graders make mistakes? To me, assigning a grade is a probability event. A Perfect grade? No. In a 63 holder could the coin be a 62 or 64? However, a very high probability that the grading co / CAC got it right.
Mike Trout (the baseball player) is a great hitter but strikes out sometimes. Does that mean he's overpaid? You can judge for yourself just like you can judge a coins value yourself. If you don't need CAC good for you. You will not convince others and they won't convince you. The marketplace as a whole will decide.
As for me, I don't expect perfection from anyone. I'm never disappointed.