it seems crazy to point to one example to say it proves anything. CAC says it has evaluated over 1.1 million coins. one example is not even close to 1/10,000 of one percent !
What CAC does is really no more than what every dealer does at the shows when he or she goes through boxes of coins and picks the pieces the coins they like for the grade asigned. The difference is CAC puts a sticker on their picks and there is a significant number of collectors who think that JA is head and shoulders above every other grader. I have not found that to be true in my experience. Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
The difference is CAC puts a sticker on their picks and there is a significant number of collectors who think that JA is head and shoulders above every other grader. I have not found that to be true in my experience.
And that significant number of collectors can focus their interest on those coins with stickers, while you can ignore them if you are so inclined. Everybody should be happy. Right?
I don't ignore stickered coins. I buy them if I like them, but I learned not get excited when a stickered coin showed up that was on my want list because I've been disappointed too many times.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
What CAC does is really no more than what every dealer does at the shows when he or she goes through boxes of coins and picks the pieces the coins they like for the grade asigned. The difference is CAC puts a sticker on their picks and there is a significant number of collectors who think that JA is head and shoulders above every other grader. I have not found that to be true in my experience. Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
We're all making judgments based on our experiences. Obviously yours is backed up by many years of collecting so I will defer to you.
My view is that the market as a whole is making a judgment. The higher the premium for CAC coins the more that agree they want JA's opinion.
If perceptions change so will the premium for the coins.
There might come a day when the hobby looks back on this period and laughs that we needed coins in plastic and stickers.
@Justacommeman said:
It would be educational if one could state why it didn’t sticker. Otherwise I fear the reaper
m
This seems to be an expert board. Since I know nothing about coins I am not qualified to say. Is a late stage die crack on the reverse reason enough?
If anyone can tell from a smallish scan the answer will be forth coming.
Cac had their reason. I trust their judgement.
It’s going to be a crap shoot off of pics. What I meant if anyone had JA’s reason for not stickering it could be educational. I’ve learned A LOT on a couple of examples. It will help me personally going forward
m
Yes, just spoke with him yesterday about a group that didn't pass. Insanely valuable service they offer for those interested in learning which everyone should be no matter how good. Every time I talk to John I pick up a thing or two he is so generous with his time too.
For purposes of the thread here is one that didn't pass:
PCGS 65
The color to him was from heating the coin. I was about 95% sure that was going to be the result because I've had a similar coin fail in the past for that reason but this coin is such a knockout in hand, the luster is fantastic and to me even though it's questionable I love the color. He also mentioned, like we all know, there is a gray area and he can only make his best educated guess with QC coins from his experience and just because that's his opinion doesn't take away from coins that have great eye appeal or superior technical aspects. That last part is pretty relevant to a thread like this I think.
When I was really into upgrading my gold type set, I wanted a Type I Gold Dollar in MS-65, but I couldn't justify paying almost $4,000 for a very common date, like 1853. I have in one in MS-64 that I bought from dealer who going to re-submit it for a re-grade to MS-65. I made him a generous offer, which in hindsight, was too much money. That coin is equal to or very close to the best of the current MS-65s.
Since JA has decided that this coin was heated to get the color, does that mean it still would not sticker if it were graded MS-64? Is the piece forever condemned in all grades in his opinion? If this coin were in MS-64 holder and priced as such, I would buy if I were still adding U.S. coins to my holdings.
Most old coins have been fooled with in one way or another over the last 150+ years. It comes with the territory, and you have to decide whether or not it’s a deal breaker.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Despite the limitation of grading from 2D pictures, this is one of the more useful CAC threads. Thanks to those sharing their non CAC'd coins (and why).
My own experience with CAC was that most of the coins I expected to sticker did so, the few that I included that were "reaches" did not, but there were a couple that surprised me either way. As a collector, I value CAC.
But, @BillJones raised a good point I wonder about, too. He wrote:
"Since JA has decided that this coin was heated to get the color, does that mean it still would not sticker if it were graded MS-64? Is the piece forever condemned in all grades in his opinion?
Most old coins have been fooled with in one way or another over the last 150+ years. It comes with the territory, and you have to decide whether or not it’s a deal breaker."
Can a coin be "messed with" (define as you will) and CAC???
CAC’s approach to gold is very different than their approach to all other coins. This is reflected in the “pass rate” for classic gold. It is almost deserving of two separate discussions.
@BryceM said:
And just to be impish, this coin didn't pass when I sent it in:
But this one did:
For those of you following along at home, yes, yes indeed it is the same coin.
I just love this !!! It wasn't nice as a 50, but it is nice as a 53 !!! Point proven!
No one claims he is perfect but he is very good. It seems like his critics hold only him to an impossible standard of perfection.
Actually poster Perfection has said just that. Others act like they believe that. No one demands perfection. Mistakes happen. CAC does a good job overall. With that said, I do think CAC makes more mistakes than many of you realize. I don't think it is really that much better or consistent than the grading services were up until the last decade.
@BryceM said:
And just to be impish, this coin didn't pass when I sent it in:
But this one did:
For those of you following along at home, yes, yes indeed it is the same coin.
I just love this !!! It wasn't nice as a 50, but it is nice as a 53 !!! Point proven!
No one claims he is perfect but he is very good. It seems like his critics hold only him to an impossible standard of perfection.
Actually poster Perfection has said just that. Others act like they believe that. No one demands perfection. Mistakes happen. CAC does a good job overall. With that said, I do think CAC makes more mistakes than many of you realize. I don't think it is really that much better or consistent than the grading services were up until the last decade.
How about instead of going back and forth, we just focus on your comment that "CAC does a good job overall." In my book, that's a recommendation.
By the way, I just read a post by John Brush that pointed out that JA is founder and president of a non profit called the Numismatic Consumer Alliance. www.stopcoinfraud.com It is a group that actually does something to protect collectors. It is easy for people to sit back and be critical but JA actually does something for our great hobby.
@coinbuf said:
Actually Mark PCGS was inconsistent, the coin was 50 on one day and 53 on another, point proven!
Not a point at all. Coins get upgraded all the time. What makes me smile is this proves CAC means nothing ….. when a coin will fail as a 50 and pass as a 53 !!! This speaks volume's!
So either you’re also saying that grades by companies that upgrade “all the time” also “means nothing” and “speaks volumes” or you’re incredibly inconsistent/biased. Which is it?
@Gazes said:
By the way, I just read a post by John Brush that pointed out that JA is founder and president of a non profit called the Numismatic Consumer Alliance. www.stopcoinfraud.com It is a group that actually does something to protect collectors. It is easy for people to sit back and be critical but JA actually does something for our great hobby.
John has been doing that for many years and I know of numerous instances in which he has helped victims (of what I believe to be fraudulent behavior). Before anyone asks, he has even helped people who didn’t know about CAC or own any CAC coins.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Gazes said:
By the way, I just read a post by John Brush that pointed out that JA is founder and president of a non profit called the Numismatic Consumer Alliance. www.stopcoinfraud.com It is a group that actually does something to protect collectors. It is easy for people to sit back and be critical but JA actually does something for our great hobby.
@Gazes said:
By the way, I just read a post by John Brush that pointed out that JA is founder and president of a non profit called the Numismatic Consumer Alliance. www.stopcoinfraud.com It is a group that actually does something to protect collectors. It is easy for people to sit back and be critical but JA actually does something for our great hobby.
No one said he was a bad person.
While you’re likely correct, I have seen some people (who don’t know him at all) accuse him of being “all about the money”, which is beyond merely wrong.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Gazes said:
By the way, I just read a post by John Brush that pointed out that JA is founder and president of a non profit called the Numismatic Consumer Alliance. www.stopcoinfraud.com It is a group that actually does something to protect collectors. It is easy for people to sit back and be critical but JA actually does something for our great hobby.
No one said he was a bad person.
While you’re likely correct, I have seen some people (who don’t know him at all) accuse him of being “all about the money”, which is beyond merely wrong.
I fully agree with you and hadn't paid attention to comments of that nature. I know the NCA thing has been brought up here before (I have mentioned it a few times in CAC threads). John also sent all collectors a copy of the Scott Traver's Coin Collector's Survival Manual one Christmas. I genuinely believe that he does care about the hobby.
@Gazes said:
By the way, I just read a post by John Brush that pointed out that JA is founder and president of a non profit called the Numismatic Consumer Alliance. www.stopcoinfraud.com It is a group that actually does something to protect collectors. It is easy for people to sit back and be critical but JA actually does something for our great hobby.
No one said he was a bad person.
that's odd you would say that in response to my post. all I did was post about a great org he founded that alot of people dont know about. I also said it is easy for some people to post and be "critical" of CAC and JA. I hear on these boards he has ruined the hobby for some or he has too much power. Just wanted to point out what he is doing to help the hobby.
@washingtonrainbows said:
What I am suggesting is know how to grade well enough that I don’t need CAC to endorse the best grading company in the world. CAC frequently results in a 25% premium on coins that I may want to purchase. I don’t need their help and certainly don’t want to pay an unnecessary premium. On a low pop coin CAC tax can cost a lot of money on a coin that I would have bought without the added CAC bean. CAC is great for newbies but otherwise it’s just an added tax. I buy PCGS or NGC I trust them and their guarantee, this hobby is expensive enough for something I don’t need.
I agree with you. I'll look at CAC coins but I won't pay the CAC tax unless the coin warrants it. I've seen many CAC coins that are only average at best and I won't pay the CAC tax to buy these coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@washingtonrainbows said:
What I am suggesting is know how to grade well enough that I don’t need CAC to endorse the best grading company in the world. CAC frequently results in a 25% premium on coins that I may want to purchase. I don’t need their help and certainly don’t want to pay an unnecessary premium. On a low pop coin CAC tax can cost a lot of money on a coin that I would have bought without the added CAC bean. CAC is great for newbies but otherwise it’s just an added tax. I buy PCGS or NGC I trust them and their guarantee, this hobby is expensive enough for something I don’t need.
I agree with you. I'll look at CAC coins but I won't pay the CAC tax unless the coin warrants it. I've seen many CAC coins that are only average at best and I won't pay the CAC tax to buy these coins.
robec---Did you ask CAC why it didn't get a CAC bean the second time through? Perhaps we need a new service to review CACed coins to make sure they got it right.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I tried this one twice in NGC and PCGS holders, same grade. I am pretty sure if I had asked it would have been the ole 'cleaned long ago' sticker I seem to get from time to time. I am about to send in about 7 rejects that I did not understand for reconsideration and comments if rejected.
@PerryHall said:
robec---Did you ask CAC why it didn't get a CAC bean the second time through? Perhaps we need a new service to review CACed coins to make sure they got it right.
I have in the past, this time I didn't. I assumed he didn't care for the color
When you buy a stickered coin are you paying a CAC tax or a premium coin tax? It might be some of both, but I frequently remind people that nice coins sold for a premium a long time before the TPGs or CAC existed. Identifying them - well things have changed there a bit.
Certainly it is more difficult to cherrypick a nice coin if it’s already wearing a green or gold sticker.
@BryceM said:
When you buy a stickered coin are you paying a CAC tax or a premium coin tax? It might be some of both, but I frequently remind people that nice coins sold for a premium a long time before the TPGs or CAC existed. Identifying them - well things have changed there a bit.
Certainly it is more difficult to cherrypick a nice coin if it’s already wearing a green or gold sticker.
It could well make sense to pay a “CAC premium” if the coin is “all there.” It becomes questionable when the coin falls short. Some here have said that only happens 1 out of 10,000 times. If that is so, my average with early and Classic Head gold has been clearly an extreme outlier.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I remember from my comic days, anger was always directed towards the grading companies.
The old vets who only bought raw books were ticked off due to:
1)"Who says the grading standards are the right standards? I've been buying coins for decades and no one will tell me how to grade".
2)The price of the books rose sharply as new money entered the hobby despite lacking grading abilities.
3)The opportunity to use their skills was to some extent being leveled by those who only buy plastic. The vast discrepancy in grading from dealers to customers were to some extent being leveled out.
I looked thru many boxes of coins of a wholesaler at a show today a big volume player - no CAC, zero. I bought some Commems and Dollars from him behind bid. Nobody there seemed worried about CAC.
Some inquired on a couple of my CAC coins no takers
@washingtonrainbows said:
This illustrates I why I buy what I like with or without a sticker. First I pay PCGS premium why add the CAC premium unless of course I have no choice. I really don’t care what JA thinks about my coins. So many need or want CAC endorsement, what a silly tax to pay for one persons opinion.
You say you pay a premium for PCGS---why pay any premium and only buy NGC or raw? Why is it ok to pay a "premium" for PCGS but not CAC?
Also you say why pay a "silly tax" for "one persons opinion"---First, it is not just one person's opinion, there are others who view the coin at CAC. But at the end of the day isn't the increased price a reflection that the coin stickered is better than a "C" coin that has the same grade?
By the way, if you collect mostly Washington quarters I probably agree that CAC is less important in that series. I think that is reflected in the spreads between CAC and NON CAC coins in that series.
@washingtonrainbows said: @Gazes if you like paying 5-30% more for CAC approval that’s ok. I am saying I don’t need their approval and would rather reinvest the CAC tax on other coins like the good old days. PCGS or NGC and my opinion is all I need to pull the trigger. Let’s CAC the CAC and pay another tax.
I have always been ok paying more for any coin I felt was strong for the grade within the series I collect
Suppose a friend of mine refuses to pay the grading tax and the CAC tax. He believes he can grade better than most and only buys raw coins. What is his best option?
1)Criticize others who believe differently?
2)Have a go, to diminish the reputation of the principals who run these companies?
3)reach an understanding that there are many markets to play in and everybody does what is best for them?
4)Keep all thoughts to himself?
Since I don't work through an experienced and trusted dealer, I find the CAC sticker to be of value as the opinion of a very respected dealer and grader, ditto the TPGs. The exceptions above simply illustrate that collectors need to see enough coins to form a reasonable opinion on their own, regardless of the TPG grade or the presence or absence of a sticker (this said for the millionth time). At least the collector should know enough to know what the heck they like. It is the collector who must live with their decision and enjoy looking at their collection. Perhaps if I were in this for the money or more worried about the money I would feel differently, but I look at both the TPGs and CAC as valuable (and I remember the bad old days too well) services, and that's it.
“I buy several other types of coins. (Lincoln cents and others) I have been selling my secondary collection lately at GC. None of which I sent to CAC. Some of which I bought with CAC sticker”.
If you’re selling coins that are less than $300 I don’t think it makes sense to send them to CAC. But if you’re selling more expensive coins especially in an online auction I would send everything to CAC. You can save money and do it yourself (you only pay for the coins that pass) or have GC submit them to CAC. You’ll pay $14.50 for each coin submitted but GC does pay for the postage. You might have the best coin eyes in the world but when you’re selling anonymously through GC nobody knows that and you’re leaving money on the table.
If you disagree with the PCGS grade you are free to send it in to be regraded.
If you disagree with the CAC non sticker determination you are free to send it in to be restickered.
I have personally done both and have had success. Graders in both companies make errors, its subjective, its life. We make mistakes, we are human. I love have PCGS and CAC in order to insure my continuing success in collecting and protecting my purchases. What is there not to understand, it is a phenomenal option. I love the fact that you can talk to JA about the coin you sent into CA for sticking and learn how he views it. Now where can you get that kind of quick education?
The ability to talk with Mr Albanese for education on the coin (s) submitted is definitely valuable .
@Gazes said:
By the way, I just read a post by John Brush that pointed out that JA is founder and president of a non profit called the Numismatic Consumer Alliance. www.stopcoinfraud.com It is a group that actually does something to protect collectors. It is easy for people to sit back and be critical but JA actually does something for our great hobby.
I have given to the Numismatiic Consumer Alliance in the past. It is a 501 c 3 organization.
I would think that many on this community forum might want to consider doing the same since we all have such high moral standards when it comes to collecting coins. Here is your chance !😄
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Comments
it seems crazy to point to one example to say it proves anything. CAC says it has evaluated over 1.1 million coins. one example is not even close to 1/10,000 of one percent !
What CAC does is really no more than what every dealer does at the shows when he or she goes through boxes of coins and picks the pieces the coins they like for the grade asigned. The difference is CAC puts a sticker on their picks and there is a significant number of collectors who think that JA is head and shoulders above every other grader. I have not found that to be true in my experience. Sure, he's above average, but in my 60 years as a collector, I've seen others who were just as good.
This coin is in a PCGS AU55 holder...it did not sticker at CAC...and I should have asked why but did not...
And that significant number of collectors can focus their interest on those coins with stickers, while you can ignore them if you are so inclined. Everybody should be happy. Right?
I don't ignore stickered coins. I buy them if I like them, but I learned not get excited when a stickered coin showed up that was on my want list because I've been disappointed too many times.
We're all making judgments based on our experiences. Obviously yours is backed up by many years of collecting so I will defer to you.
My view is that the market as a whole is making a judgment. The higher the premium for CAC coins the more that agree they want JA's opinion.
If perceptions change so will the premium for the coins.
There might come a day when the hobby looks back on this period and laughs that we needed coins in plastic and stickers.
Then again, will the hobby be very vibrant?
The toning on this is ultra vibrant even in day-sunlight, and the truview does not show how brilliant the colors are in hand.
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
When I was really into upgrading my gold type set, I wanted a Type I Gold Dollar in MS-65, but I couldn't justify paying almost $4,000 for a very common date, like 1853. I have in one in MS-64 that I bought from dealer who going to re-submit it for a re-grade to MS-65. I made him a generous offer, which in hindsight, was too much money. That coin is equal to or very close to the best of the current MS-65s.
Since JA has decided that this coin was heated to get the color, does that mean it still would not sticker if it were graded MS-64? Is the piece forever condemned in all grades in his opinion? If this coin were in MS-64 holder and priced as such, I would buy if I were still adding U.S. coins to my holdings.
Most old coins have been fooled with in one way or another over the last 150+ years. It comes with the territory, and you have to decide whether or not it’s a deal breaker.
If they didn't "pass" CAC, the grader did his job correctly
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Despite the limitation of grading from 2D pictures, this is one of the more useful CAC threads. Thanks to those sharing their non CAC'd coins (and why).
My own experience with CAC was that most of the coins I expected to sticker did so, the few that I included that were "reaches" did not, but there were a couple that surprised me either way. As a collector, I value CAC.
But, @BillJones raised a good point I wonder about, too. He wrote:
"Since JA has decided that this coin was heated to get the color, does that mean it still would not sticker if it were graded MS-64? Is the piece forever condemned in all grades in his opinion?
Most old coins have been fooled with in one way or another over the last 150+ years. It comes with the territory, and you have to decide whether or not it’s a deal breaker."
Can a coin be "messed with" (define as you will) and CAC???
My current "Box of 20"
CAC’s approach to gold is very different than their approach to all other coins. This is reflected in the “pass rate” for classic gold. It is almost deserving of two separate discussions.
That makes no sense...
Latin American Collection
They passed at PCGS. That's always been enough for me.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Actually poster Perfection has said just that. Others act like they believe that. No one demands perfection. Mistakes happen. CAC does a good job overall. With that said, I do think CAC makes more mistakes than many of you realize. I don't think it is really that much better or consistent than the grading services were up until the last decade.
How about instead of going back and forth, we just focus on your comment that "CAC does a good job overall." In my book, that's a recommendation.
By the way, I just read a post by John Brush that pointed out that JA is founder and president of a non profit called the Numismatic Consumer Alliance. www.stopcoinfraud.com It is a group that actually does something to protect collectors. It is easy for people to sit back and be critical but JA actually does something for our great hobby.
John has been doing that for many years and I know of numerous instances in which he has helped victims (of what I believe to be fraudulent behavior). Before anyone asks, he has even helped people who didn’t know about CAC or own any CAC coins.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
VERY PRETTY!!!
No one said he was a bad person.
While you’re likely correct, I have seen some people (who don’t know him at all) accuse him of being “all about the money”, which is beyond merely wrong.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I fully agree with you and hadn't paid attention to comments of that nature. I know the NCA thing has been brought up here before (I have mentioned it a few times in CAC threads). John also sent all collectors a copy of the Scott Traver's Coin Collector's Survival Manual one Christmas. I genuinely believe that he does care about the hobby.
that's odd you would say that in response to my post. all I did was post about a great org he founded that alot of people dont know about. I also said it is easy for some people to post and be "critical" of CAC and JA. I hear on these boards he has ruined the hobby for some or he has too much power. Just wanted to point out what he is doing to help the hobby.
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jk
Collector, occasional seller
I agree with you. I'll look at CAC coins but I won't pay the CAC tax unless the coin warrants it. I've seen many CAC coins that are only average at best and I won't pay the CAC tax to buy these coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Totally agree.
Proving Mark's point that humans aren't always perfect I bought this from HA, NGC MS65BN with a green bean.
I cracked it out, sent it to PCGS for grading and came back 64BN. I've since sent it to CAC, but this time it didn't get the bean.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
robec---Did you ask CAC why it didn't get a CAC bean the second time through? Perhaps we need a new service to review CACed coins to make sure they got it right.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I tried this one twice in NGC and PCGS holders, same grade. I am pretty sure if I had asked it would have been the ole 'cleaned long ago' sticker I seem to get from time to time. I am about to send in about 7 rejects that I did not understand for reconsideration and comments if rejected.
I have in the past, this time I didn't. I assumed he didn't care for the color
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
When you buy a stickered coin are you paying a CAC tax or a premium coin tax? It might be some of both, but I frequently remind people that nice coins sold for a premium a long time before the TPGs or CAC existed. Identifying them - well things have changed there a bit.
Certainly it is more difficult to cherrypick a nice coin if it’s already wearing a green or gold sticker.
I suspect a lot of the unhappiness with CAC is exactly that.
It could well make sense to pay a “CAC premium” if the coin is “all there.” It becomes questionable when the coin falls short. Some here have said that only happens 1 out of 10,000 times. If that is so, my average with early and Classic Head gold has been clearly an extreme outlier.
I remember from my comic days, anger was always directed towards the grading companies.
The old vets who only bought raw books were ticked off due to:
1)"Who says the grading standards are the right standards? I've been buying coins for decades and no one will tell me how to grade".
2)The price of the books rose sharply as new money entered the hobby despite lacking grading abilities.
3)The opportunity to use their skills was to some extent being leveled by those who only buy plastic. The vast discrepancy in grading from dealers to customers were to some extent being leveled out.
I looked thru many boxes of coins of a wholesaler at a show today a big volume player - no CAC, zero. I bought some Commems and Dollars from him behind bid. Nobody there seemed worried about CAC.
Some inquired on a couple of my CAC coins no takers
You say you pay a premium for PCGS---why pay any premium and only buy NGC or raw? Why is it ok to pay a "premium" for PCGS but not CAC?
Also you say why pay a "silly tax" for "one persons opinion"---First, it is not just one person's opinion, there are others who view the coin at CAC. But at the end of the day isn't the increased price a reflection that the coin stickered is better than a "C" coin that has the same grade?
By the way, if you collect mostly Washington quarters I probably agree that CAC is less important in that series. I think that is reflected in the spreads between CAC and NON CAC coins in that series.
I have always been ok paying more for any coin I felt was strong for the grade within the series I collect
Great information, thanks for sharing!
I'm going to guess color - it doesn't have any.
Suppose a friend of mine refuses to pay the grading tax and the CAC tax. He believes he can grade better than most and only buys raw coins. What is his best option?
1)Criticize others who believe differently?
2)Have a go, to diminish the reputation of the principals who run these companies?
3)reach an understanding that there are many markets to play in and everybody does what is best for them?
4)Keep all thoughts to himself?
Since I don't work through an experienced and trusted dealer, I find the CAC sticker to be of value as the opinion of a very respected dealer and grader, ditto the TPGs. The exceptions above simply illustrate that collectors need to see enough coins to form a reasonable opinion on their own, regardless of the TPG grade or the presence or absence of a sticker (this said for the millionth time). At least the collector should know enough to know what the heck they like. It is the collector who must live with their decision and enjoy looking at their collection. Perhaps if I were in this for the money or more worried about the money I would feel differently, but I look at both the TPGs and CAC as valuable (and I remember the bad old days too well) services, and that's it.
@washingtonrainbows
“I buy several other types of coins. (Lincoln cents and others) I have been selling my secondary collection lately at GC. None of which I sent to CAC. Some of which I bought with CAC sticker”.
If you’re selling coins that are less than $300 I don’t think it makes sense to send them to CAC. But if you’re selling more expensive coins especially in an online auction I would send everything to CAC. You can save money and do it yourself (you only pay for the coins that pass) or have GC submit them to CAC. You’ll pay $14.50 for each coin submitted but GC does pay for the postage. You might have the best coin eyes in the world but when you’re selling anonymously through GC nobody knows that and you’re leaving money on the table.
The ability to talk with Mr Albanese for education on the coin (s) submitted is definitely valuable .
I have given to the Numismatiic Consumer Alliance in the past. It is a 501 c 3 organization.
I would think that many on this community forum might want to consider doing the same since we all have such high moral standards when it comes to collecting coins. Here is your chance !😄
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
We've come a long way from the original topic/post which was to post a coin that flunked CAC that we liked.
true. and trust me I know the feeling. it is interesting to go back on this thread and to see the first post to get the thread off track