If many of the dealers’ coins didn’t sticker, maybe he decided to take off stickers on the ones that did pass CAC. Then prospective buyers might think the dealer submitted none of them.
Hey it’s just as likely as concluding that no stickers meant that the dealer knows how to grade...
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
To me it depends on the coins they are selling. If it's a bunch of MS-63-65 common date Morgans, I would definitely say getting a a CAC approval would be a total waste. But on stuff like chain cents, high-grade gold or other scarce to rare items it would be worthwhile to do - if you are a seller or will sell later on.
All of this is moot if the coin is just plain ugly.
IMHO, the unique 1870-S $3 Gold, is a good hypothetical "fly in the ointment", for the CAC or the highway approach.
The 1870-S $3, I believe, is currently a museum item, possibly ex-jewelry (details only, not gradeable), has graffiti (again, details only, not gradeable).
So, even if it were available for sale, no numeric grade, no sticker.
That unique coin would still sell for uber money (CU lists it at $4Million).
FWIW, the 1870-S $3, is also the hypothetical show-stopper,
for Hansen even matching Eliasberg on the basic date & mint mark completion,
but, still spending those hundreds of millions of dollars...
"They lost because their phenoms failed to phenominate." - Yogi Berra
@ARCO said:
I can't wait until other services like CAC arise. With enough time, coin holders will look like a general's chest with all his military medals. No coin will be adequate unless it has all 42 beans, stickers and stamps of approvals of all the respectable and honorable grading "authorities".
It's already been tried multiple times, and largely has not worked. Only the CAC bean carries the day, for multiple reasons that have been discussed multiple times here.
Sounds like an old schooler who is behind the times. Unless they are priced high, he's settin himself up to be cherry picked. There's probly still a few out there who know only raw coins.
That’s pretty much what I assumed. Old school guy who either doesn’t know much about CAC or just doesn’t care about it at all.
Also, the part about cherry picking was my main question that I completely failed to articulate in my original post. I was wondering if anyone had noticed a dealer like the one I did AND if they saw it as an opportunity to cherry pick those A and B coins.
I didn’t look through the guys entire inventory and see his prices. So I have no idea if he priced his PQ examples accordingly.
Out of the thousands and thousands of coins CAC has stickered, it is rare that the complaint is they "messed up." Of course there will always be coins that stickered and shouldn't have or coins didn't sticker but should have but CAC gets it right the overwhelming amount of the time.
The main criticism I hear is like the earlier post that it is too much power for one man or the problem is he is the "only doctor" for a second opinion. First, it is not just one man. JA is in charge and apparently has final say but CAC has others looking at the coins too. Second, there are others who can give second opinions---resubmit to PCGS, submit to NGC, dealers can describe a coin in its inventory as high end (some dealers will explain why they think a coin did not CAC), etc. What certain people don't like is that the market gives CAC more weight than others. Which brings me to the third point, it is not one person---it is the thousands of dealers and collectors who make up the market. JA can say anything he wants but unless the market values his opinion, it would be just that--one man's opinion. There are others who do similar services but the market simply does not value their opinion as much. Warren Buffett is just one man---when he speaks about a stock people value it more than others.
I agree with those who say that for a certain series or certain coins a CAC sticker does not really matter (JA has said this in interviews). However, for other coins (generally higher priced coins) CAC provides a valuable service at a very small cost.
"Some dealers operate with inventory they own and some are heavily leveraged. Some (most?) are financially fronted by a smattering of different players in the business"
I have always wondered about leverage in the coin business and the impact on coin prices. Maybe coin prices need a deeper
correction.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@ARCO said:
I can't wait until other services like CAC arise. With enough time, coin holders will look like a general's chest with all his military medals. No coin will be adequate unless it has all 42 beans, stickers and stamps of approvals of all the respectable and honorable grading "authorities".
It’s not uncommon for a dealer take items on invoice at a show from a large dealer. This way the (consignor) large dealers inventory is getting more exposure.
Dealer takes coins on invoice in this manner where the sold material (or ones purchased) are paid for at the end of the show and the unsold returned to the dealer. Usually generic slabbed DE - on one occasion He takes 12 on invoice outright purchased 4, sold 5 during the show at 5-10 pct over invoice price then latter part of show rest around $10-$20 over invoice.
The consignor (large dealer) was very happy, the extra material made small dealer display case look better, and a lady impressed with the display presented him with (contact info) an estate to view / purchase which worked out real well.
So in that scenario the play was very successful coupled with super downfield blocking
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Hyperbole.
m
If there is a large number of collectors like you who won’t buy a coin without a sticker and who have blown off all of their other coins just because JA won’t approve of them, my concerns are spot-on. This is cult-like behavior, and it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby.
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
Some of us don't need to have our hand held when we buy coins. Some of us know that you can't take everything you see at face value.
THIS!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Mark, at Long Beach, I noticed that all coins are more expensive in a dealer case where everything is stickered than in another dealer case where some material is, and is not stickered. In this situation, I'd bet that if you can find the same coin in another dealer case with the sticker, it would probably cost less.
As others have said, paying up for a sticker for some coins is worthwhile, assuming you know how to grade the coin and agree that it is nice for the grade. But remember, the sticker means that JA will make an offer on the coin. Period.
The above said, if you're going all in on a specific coin, I'd tell you to make sure it's stickered. Just another safety net.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Hyperbole.
m
If there is a large number of collectors like you who won’t buy a coin without a sticker and who have blown off all of their other coins just because JA won’t approve of them, my concerns are spot-on. This is cult-like behavior, and it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby.
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
BS, hyperbole and wrong. Making things up just to fit your narrative. Do you actually take the time to read what others write? I wrote in this very thread I bought a non CAC coin gladly. I’ve bought many many many coins without CAC stickers. I have since gotten them stickered.
Good grief.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@BillJones said:
Some of us don't need to have our hand held when we buy coins. Some of us know that you can't take everything you see at face value.
THIS!
If you buy a coin in a slab you are already having you hand held right?
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@BillJones said:
Some of us don't need to have our hand held when we buy coins. Some of us know that you can't take everything you see at face value.
THIS!
If you buy a coin in a slab you are already having you hand held right?
mark
I do know enough about coins to be able to buy them without even the slab, much less the sticker, but many people cannot be bothered to learn.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@BillJones said:
Some of us don't need to have our hand held when we buy coins. Some of us know that you can't take everything you see at face value.
THIS!
If you buy a coin in a slab you are already having you hand held right?
mark
I do know enough about coins to be able to buy them without even the slab, much less the sticker, but many people cannot be bothered to learn.
Understood. But what about the over whelming majority of collectors who aren’t as knowledgeable as you? Should they sit on the sidelines until they are up to speed? TPG’s and CAC level the playing field somewhat. I honestly think that is what’s really rankles some veteran collectors.
I offer you this. Where would the hobby be if those that aren’t as knowledge as you didn’t participate in the market? Especially at the upper end.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Hyperbole.
m
If there is a large number of collectors like you who won’t buy a coin without a sticker and who have blown off all of their other coins just because JA won’t approve of them, my concerns are spot-on. This is cult-like behavior, and it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby.
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
BS, hyperbole and wrong. Making things up just to fit your narrative. Do you actually take the time to read what others write? I wrote in this very thread I bought a non CAC coin gladly. I’ve bought many many many coins without CAC stickers. I have since gotten them stickered.
Good grief.
m
Yes, I've read what you have wrote. You said that you only have one non-stickered coin in your collection, a Proof Walking Liberty half in your registry set, and that you have sold the others. You stated a while back you said that you sent all of your coins to CAC and that you sold the pieces that didn't sticker. You have written all of this.
Here's what you posted on June 18:
My proof set used to be #2. The easiest coin (1942) I “only” have a 67 that cost more then almost all 68s. I chose it because it’s awesome. Not worried about points. It’s also my only coin that’s not stickered. Actually Mark Feld represented me in auction on that coin . I know why John didn't sticker the coin. He was right. I still have the coin. It will remain in the set until something better comes along.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Agreed. I have never seen an EagleEye approved coin that I didn't like.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Hyperbole.
m
If there is a large number of collectors like you who won’t buy a coin without a sticker and who have blown off all of their other coins just because JA won’t approve of them, my concerns are spot-on. This is cult-like behavior, and it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby.
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
You make some huge assumptions. First, I don't think there are a large number of collectors who won't even consider buying a non cac coin. You could also argue the same thing that if there are a large number of collectors who won't buy a coin unless it is in a slab that is not conducive to growth---but actually TPG actually helped growth by giving collectors confidence in what they were buying. Finally, you seem to make the assumption that JA randomly chooses coins to sticker. There is a reason some collectors prefer CAC coins because those coins are solid or premium for the grade.
I am not directing my next comment at anyone in particular but I sometimes get the sense that some long time collectors went out and bought coins for what they considered to be bargain prices and now there is a company that has identified the A and B coins and those bargain coins are not such a bargain anymore.
Agreed. I have never seen an EagleEye approved coin that I didn't like. > @MasonG said:
@BillJones said:
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
His control over the U.S. coin market is based on people voluntarily valuing his opinion. How would you propose to get people to stop trusting him?
Errors, but I can’t show them because I would be banned. Early on I spent more on CAC coins than many people on this board, well into 6 figures. Some of those purchases were mistakes. When I really looked at them, I was not pleased. I saw the light when I was offered more mistakes which I refused to make.
When you say that anyone is greatest at anything, that puts a heavy burden on them, no matter what the field. Few people in history have been to sustain that level of excellence for a long period of time. What I object to is this idea that one person is that perfect and omnipotent. No one is that perfect. No one should given the power to condemn other people’s holdings in mass because one person has seen fit not to endorse them, or has, in fact, not seen the items in question at all. JA has not seen every coin that has been offered.
JA has tried to avoid the perfect label, but his supporters put it on him because it’s now in their financial interests to do so. It would be good if the CAC supporters could stick to saying, “CAC is great,” and leave off the comment that “Everything else is dreck.”
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
Agreed. I have never seen an EagleEye approved coin that I didn't like. > @MasonG said:
@BillJones said:
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
His control over the U.S. coin market is based on people voluntarily valuing his opinion. How would you propose to get people to stop trusting him?
Errors, but I can’t show them because I would be banned. Early on I spent more on CAC coins than many people on this board, well into 6 figures. Some of those purchases were mistakes. When I really looked at them, I was not pleased. I saw the light when I was offered more mistakes which I refused to make.
When you say that anyone is greatest at anything, that puts a heavy burden on them, no matter what the field. Few people in history have been to sustain that level of excellence for a long period of time. What I object to is this idea that one person is that perfect and omnipotent. No one is that perfect. No one should given the power to condemn other people’s holdings in mass because one person has seen fit not to endorse them, or has, in fact, not seen the items in question at all. JA has not seen every coin that has been offered.
JA has tried to avoid the perfect label, but his supporters put it on him because it’s now in their financial interests to do so. It would be good if the CAC supporters could stick to saying, “CAC is great,” and leave off the comment that “Everything else is dreck.”
I have yet to see a single person claim he is “perfect” - not even Laura. Yet, you use that word and claim that his supporters put that label on him.
And despite the way you characterize it, I seriously doubt, that from among all of the people who discuss CAC, more than a few have posted that non-CAC coins are “dreck”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@BillJones said:
Agreed. I have never seen an EagleEye approved coin that I didn't like. > @MasonG said:
@BillJones said:
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
His control over the U.S. coin market is based on people voluntarily valuing his opinion. How would you propose to get people to stop trusting him?
Errors, but I can’t show them because I would be banned. Early on I spent more on CAC coins than many people on this board, well into 6 figures. Some of those purchases were mistakes. When I really looked at them, I was not pleased. I saw the light when I was offered more mistakes which I refused to make.
When you say that anyone is greatest at anything, that puts a heavy burden on them, no matter what the field. Few people in history have been to sustain that level of excellence for a long period of time. What I object to is this idea that one person is that perfect and omnipotent. No one is that perfect. No one should given the power to condemn other people’s holdings in mass because one person has seen fit not to endorse them, or has, in fact, not seen the items in question at all. JA has not seen every coin that has been offered.
JA has tried to avoid the perfect label, but his supporters put it on him because it’s now in their financial interests to do so. It would be good if the CAC supporters could stick to saying, “CAC is great,” and leave off the comment that “Everything else is dreck.”
If your objection is that CAC and/or JA are being called "perfect and omnipotent", I don't recall anyone ever saying that. You correctly point out that JA has avoided that label but I don't know of any of his supporters who claim that? On this thread no one has said everything non cac is dreck---no one. However, people who buy CAC coins have been accused on this thread of having to have their hand held and being cult like.
@Justacommeman said:
Understood. But what about the over whelming majority of collectors who aren’t as knowledgeable as you? Should they sit on the sidelines until they are up to speed? TPG’s and CAC level the playing field somewhat. I honestly think that is what’s really rankles some veteran collectors.
mark
Spot on, however I would substitute current and in at least one case retired dealers for collectors. Most collectors don't have the hatred and spit all the vitriol that I see from so many dealers, I'm sure that added layers like this make it much harder to sell C level wares for A level prices.
@BillJones said:
Errors, but I can’t show them because I would be banned. Early on I spent more on CAC coins than many people on this board, well into 6 figures. Some of those purchases were mistakes. When I really looked at them, I was not pleased. I saw the light when I was offered more mistakes which I refused to make.
If CAC doesn't benefit you, you are of course free to ignore their stickers. What it sounds like, is that you want other people to regard CAC the way you do, but they're just not doing it.
@BillJones said:
When you say that anyone is greatest at anything, that puts a heavy burden on them, no matter what the field. Few people in history have been to sustain that level of excellence for a long period of time. What I object to is this idea that one person is that perfect and omnipotent. No one is that perfect.
But i didn't say that. Who says he's perfect?
@BillJones said:
No one should given the power to condemn other people’s holdings in mass because one person has seen fit not to endorse them, or has, in fact, not seen the items in question at all.
No one has been given that power.
@BillJones said:
JA has not seen every coin that has been offered.
I don't think anybody has argued otherwise.
@BillJones said:>
JA has tried to avoid the perfect label, but his supporters put it on him because it’s now in their financial interests to do so.
Who's saying he's perfect? Not anybody I have seen. As for financial interests, I'm sure convincing people to disregard CAC is in the financial interests of some.
@BillJones said:>
It would be good if the CAC supporters could stick to saying, “CAC is great,” and leave off the comment that “Everything else is dreck.”
To the extent that people are saying that, I'd agree.
It seems there should be at least some fundamental understanding as to what is truly CAC submission worthy. Several generic coins in various series seem to go to CAC even though the spread between grades really does not warrant such a review. Even nice original high end circulated coins really don't need a sticker. The original look should be the narrative ... Not a sticker.
Maybe JA should consider offering some guidance as to submission worthy coins and those that just simply do not require an added layer in an effort to reduce submissions. There are simply millions of coins graded by PCGS and NGC that just do not need the service. How many MS 65 1880-s Morgans does JA really need to look at? I would suggest zero. How many has he looked at? I suspect it could be significant... Perhaps 8-10% of the total graded population? So what is the real benefit? Is it for grading confirmation or marketing?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@BillJones said:
Errors, but I can’t show them because I would be banned. Early on I spent more on CAC coins than many people on this board, well into 6 figures. Some of those purchases were mistakes. When I really looked at them, I was not pleased. I saw the light when I was offered more mistakes which I refused to make.
If CAC doesn't benefit you, you are of course free to ignore their stickers. What it sounds like, is that you want other people to regard CAC the way you do, but they're just not doing it.
@BillJones said:
When you say that anyone is greatest at anything, that puts a heavy burden on them, no matter what the field. Few people in history have been to sustain that level of excellence for a long period of time. What I object to is this idea that one person is that perfect and omnipotent. No one is that perfect.
But i didn't say that. Who says he's perfect?
@BillJones said:
No one should given the power to condemn other people’s holdings in mass because one person has seen fit not to endorse them, or has, in fact, not seen the items in question at all.
No one has been given that power.
@BillJones said:
JA has not seen every coin that has been offered.
I don't think anybody has argued otherwise.
@BillJones said:>
JA has tried to avoid the perfect label, but his supporters put it on him because it’s now in their financial interests to do so.
Who's saying he's perfect? Not anybody I have seen. As for financial interests, I'm sure convincing people to disregard CAC is in the financial interests of some.
@BillJones said:>
It would be good if the CAC supporters could stick to saying, “CAC is great,” and leave off the comment that “Everything else is dreck.”
To the extent that people are saying that, I'd agree.
Somehow I knew I would get sucked into this thread... sigh.
I made a post of outlandish CAC quotes from this forum once, and it should be floating around here somewhere if it wasn't deleted. Yes posters have said those things (e.g. "CAC is always right," "why bother with non-CAC coins," labeled non-CAC coins as almost always over graded or problem coins, etc.). I'm not just talking about the vocal CAC shareholders or former shareholders either sadly. In any event, those that claim that they don't believe CAC is always right or that everything else is dreck and yet insist on PCGS/CAC anyway as only those are the "real deal" or "real stuff" (real quote from the forums) are really just gaslighting us if they pretend that they don't believe those things in my humble opinion.
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Hyperbole.
m
If there is a large number of collectors like you who won’t buy a coin without a sticker and who have blown off all of their other coins just because JA won’t approve of them, my concerns are spot-on. This is cult-like behavior, and it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby.
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
BS, hyperbole and wrong. Making things up just to fit your narrative. Do you actually take the time to read what others write? I wrote in this very thread I bought a non CAC coin gladly. I’ve bought many many many coins without CAC stickers. I have since gotten them stickered.
Good grief.
m
Yes, I've read what you have wrote. You said that you only have one non-stickered coin in your collection, a Proof Walking Liberty half in your registry set, and that you have sold the others. You stated a while back you said that you sent all of your coins to CAC and that you sold the pieces that didn't sticker. You have written all of this.
Here's what you posted on June 18:
My proof set used to be #2. The easiest coin (1942) I “only” have a 67 that cost more then almost all 68s. I chose it because it’s awesome. Not worried about points. It’s also my only coin that’s not stickered. Actually Mark Feld represented me in auction on that coin . I know why John didn't sticker the coin. He was right. I still have the coin. It will remain in the set until something better comes along.
I have bought many coins without CAC stickers and in NGC holders. A double whammy but I liked the coins so I bought them. I eventually tried to convert them all into PCGS holders. I was largely successful. The ones that didn’t cross I did sell off. The coins that crossed all stickered except for a couple. I still have them albeit they are now dupes.
I love the combo of PCGS and CAC for my personal preference. I won’t apologize for that. But, it would never stop me from buying a coin that wasn’t stickered or in a PCGS holder.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Hyperbole.
m
I'm confused Mark. You call what Bill posted as Hyperbole......yet you clicked "Like" on it!??
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Hyperbole.
m
I'm confused Mark. You call what Bill posted as Hyperbole......yet you clicked "Like" on it!??
Probably just checking to see who agreed with him. It’s been rescinded
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Hyperbole.
m
If there is a large number of collectors like you who won’t buy a coin without a sticker and who have blown off all of their other coins just because JA won’t approve of them, my concerns are spot-on. This is cult-like behavior, and it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby.
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
Buy the coin, not the plastic, the sticker, the hype or the sizzle,
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Hyperbole.
m
If there is a large number of collectors like you who won’t buy a coin without a sticker and who have blown off all of their other coins just because JA won’t approve of them, my concerns are spot-on. This is cult-like behavior, and it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby.
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
I TOTALLY agree with this statement.
Of course, no one does have that much control. The “market” decides for itself.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The OP's concern here is my biggest problem with CAC. Coins without stickers are looked upon as inferior. My other concern is that one man's opinion carries much too much weight. When I am looking at a coin it doesn't matter if it is stickered or not if I like the coin. Sorta like @CaptHenway stated above. I don't remove stickers, but I have a lot of coins that were stickered, but lost the sticker when I sent them in to get attributed as a variety. And I'm sure not going to spend money sending them in to get restickered.
@BillJones said:
Some of us don't need to have our hand held when we buy coins. Some of us know that you can't take everything you see at face value.
THIS!
If you buy a coin in a slab you are already having you hand held right?
mark
I do know enough about coins to be able to buy them without even the slab, much less the sticker, but many people cannot be bothered to learn.
How often do you by raw US coins these days ? Just curious.....
I used to do it regularly when I was a dealer. Now not so much because the upside is limited.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@DIMEMAN said:
The OP's concern here is my biggest problem with CAC. Coins without stickers are looked upon as inferior. My other concern is that one man's opinion carries much too much weight. When I am looking at a coin it doesn't matter if it is stickered or not if I like the coin. Sorta like @CaptHenway stated above. I don't remove stickers, but I have a lot of coins that were stickered, but lost the sticker when I sent them in to get attributed as a variety. And I'm sure not going to spend money sending them in to get
Do you have similar concerns about PCGS coins and the fact that, often, non-PCGS “are looked upon as inferior”? If not, why not?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@DIMEMAN said:
My other concern is that one man's opinion carries much too much weight. When I am looking at a coin it doesn't matter if it is stickered or not if I like the coin.
Mr. A's opinion only carries the weight that others voluntarily give it. Why does it concern you that other people view his opinion differently than you do? Lots of people consider PCGS's opinion to carry a lot of weight. Any concern there?
Comments
If we’re there, I think we got there (or is it here? 😉) , before CAC even came into existence.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Fair enuf, Mark!
Dave
Maybe it all did.
If many of the dealers’ coins didn’t sticker, maybe he decided to take off stickers on the ones that did pass CAC. Then prospective buyers might think the dealer submitted none of them.
Hey it’s just as likely as concluding that no stickers meant that the dealer knows how to grade...
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
No, a very small subset of collectors, who are enormously over-represented on this forum, are there.
To me it depends on the coins they are selling. If it's a bunch of MS-63-65 common date Morgans, I would definitely say getting a a CAC approval would be a total waste. But on stuff like chain cents, high-grade gold or other scarce to rare items it would be worthwhile to do - if you are a seller or will sell later on.
All of this is moot if the coin is just plain ugly.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
The biggest danger will be to any lowball dealer who tries to badmouth a stickered bauble to try to buy it cheap.
IMHO, the unique 1870-S $3 Gold, is a good hypothetical "fly in the ointment", for the CAC or the highway approach.
The 1870-S $3, I believe, is currently a museum item, possibly ex-jewelry (details only, not gradeable), has graffiti (again, details only, not gradeable).
So, even if it were available for sale, no numeric grade, no sticker.
That unique coin would still sell for uber money (CU lists it at $4Million).
FWIW, the 1870-S $3, is also the hypothetical show-stopper,
for Hansen even matching Eliasberg on the basic date & mint mark completion,
but, still spending those hundreds of millions of dollars...
It's already been tried multiple times, and largely has not worked. Only the CAC bean carries the day, for multiple reasons that have been discussed multiple times here.
That’s pretty much what I assumed. Old school guy who either doesn’t know much about CAC or just doesn’t care about it at all.
Also, the part about cherry picking was my main question that I completely failed to articulate in my original post. I was wondering if anyone had noticed a dealer like the one I did AND if they saw it as an opportunity to cherry pick those A and B coins.
I didn’t look through the guys entire inventory and see his prices. So I have no idea if he priced his PQ examples accordingly.
Out of the thousands and thousands of coins CAC has stickered, it is rare that the complaint is they "messed up." Of course there will always be coins that stickered and shouldn't have or coins didn't sticker but should have but CAC gets it right the overwhelming amount of the time.
The main criticism I hear is like the earlier post that it is too much power for one man or the problem is he is the "only doctor" for a second opinion. First, it is not just one man. JA is in charge and apparently has final say but CAC has others looking at the coins too. Second, there are others who can give second opinions---resubmit to PCGS, submit to NGC, dealers can describe a coin in its inventory as high end (some dealers will explain why they think a coin did not CAC), etc. What certain people don't like is that the market gives CAC more weight than others. Which brings me to the third point, it is not one person---it is the thousands of dealers and collectors who make up the market. JA can say anything he wants but unless the market values his opinion, it would be just that--one man's opinion. There are others who do similar services but the market simply does not value their opinion as much. Warren Buffett is just one man---when he speaks about a stock people value it more than others.
I agree with those who say that for a certain series or certain coins a CAC sticker does not really matter (JA has said this in interviews). However, for other coins (generally higher priced coins) CAC provides a valuable service at a very small cost.
@BryceM said:
"Some dealers operate with inventory they own and some are heavily leveraged. Some (most?) are financially fronted by a smattering of different players in the business"
I have always wondered about leverage in the coin business and the impact on coin prices. Maybe coin prices need a deeper
correction.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Or the ass end of a traveling Yuppies car!
It’s not uncommon for a dealer take items on invoice at a show from a large dealer. This way the (consignor) large dealers inventory is getting more exposure.
Dealer takes coins on invoice in this manner where the sold material (or ones purchased) are paid for at the end of the show and the unsold returned to the dealer. Usually generic slabbed DE - on one occasion He takes 12 on invoice outright purchased 4, sold 5 during the show at 5-10 pct over invoice price then latter part of show rest around $10-$20 over invoice.
The consignor (large dealer) was very happy, the extra material made small dealer display case look better, and a lady impressed with the display presented him with (contact info) an estate to view / purchase which worked out real well.
So in that scenario the play was very successful coupled with super downfield blocking
Like I’ve said before, I like them, but it’s not mandatory for me to buy a coin.
My YouTube Channel
If there is a large number of collectors like you who won’t buy a coin without a sticker and who have blown off all of their other coins just because JA won’t approve of them, my concerns are spot-on. This is cult-like behavior, and it is not conducive to the growth of the hobby.
No one should have that much control over the U.S. coin market.
THIS!
Mark, at Long Beach, I noticed that all coins are more expensive in a dealer case where everything is stickered than in another dealer case where some material is, and is not stickered. In this situation, I'd bet that if you can find the same coin in another dealer case with the sticker, it would probably cost less.
As others have said, paying up for a sticker for some coins is worthwhile, assuming you know how to grade the coin and agree that it is nice for the grade. But remember, the sticker means that JA will make an offer on the coin. Period.
The above said, if you're going all in on a specific coin, I'd tell you to make sure it's stickered. Just another safety net.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
BS, hyperbole and wrong. Making things up just to fit your narrative. Do you actually take the time to read what others write? I wrote in this very thread I bought a non CAC coin gladly. I’ve bought many many many coins without CAC stickers. I have since gotten them stickered.
Good grief.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Maybe a suitable official badge for sticker owners would sooth the waters.
If you buy a coin in a slab you are already having you hand held right?
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I do know enough about coins to be able to buy them without even the slab, much less the sticker, but many people cannot be bothered to learn.
Understood. But what about the over whelming majority of collectors who aren’t as knowledgeable as you? Should they sit on the sidelines until they are up to speed? TPG’s and CAC level the playing field somewhat. I honestly think that is what’s really rankles some veteran collectors.
I offer you this. Where would the hobby be if those that aren’t as knowledge as you didn’t participate in the market? Especially at the upper end.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yes, I've read what you have wrote. You said that you only have one non-stickered coin in your collection, a Proof Walking Liberty half in your registry set, and that you have sold the others. You stated a while back you said that you sent all of your coins to CAC and that you sold the pieces that didn't sticker. You have written all of this.
Here's what you posted on June 18:
I'll add some heresy...I'd rather have an EagleEye sticker on an IHC than a CAC.
Agreed. I have never seen an EagleEye approved coin that I didn't like.
You make some huge assumptions. First, I don't think there are a large number of collectors who won't even consider buying a non cac coin. You could also argue the same thing that if there are a large number of collectors who won't buy a coin unless it is in a slab that is not conducive to growth---but actually TPG actually helped growth by giving collectors confidence in what they were buying. Finally, you seem to make the assumption that JA randomly chooses coins to sticker. There is a reason some collectors prefer CAC coins because those coins are solid or premium for the grade.
I am not directing my next comment at anyone in particular but I sometimes get the sense that some long time collectors went out and bought coins for what they considered to be bargain prices and now there is a company that has identified the A and B coins and those bargain coins are not such a bargain anymore.
His control over the U.S. coin market is based on people voluntarily valuing his opinion. How would you propose to get people to stop trusting him?
Agreed. I have never seen an EagleEye approved coin that I didn't like. > @MasonG said:
Errors, but I can’t show them because I would be banned. Early on I spent more on CAC coins than many people on this board, well into 6 figures. Some of those purchases were mistakes. When I really looked at them, I was not pleased. I saw the light when I was offered more mistakes which I refused to make.
When you say that anyone is greatest at anything, that puts a heavy burden on them, no matter what the field. Few people in history have been to sustain that level of excellence for a long period of time. What I object to is this idea that one person is that perfect and omnipotent. No one is that perfect. No one should given the power to condemn other people’s holdings in mass because one person has seen fit not to endorse them, or has, in fact, not seen the items in question at all. JA has not seen every coin that has been offered.
JA has tried to avoid the perfect label, but his supporters put it on him because it’s now in their financial interests to do so. It would be good if the CAC supporters could stick to saying, “CAC is great,” and leave off the comment that “Everything else is dreck.”
I have yet to see a single person claim he is “perfect” - not even Laura. Yet, you use that word and claim that his supporters put that label on him.
And despite the way you characterize it, I seriously doubt, that from among all of the people who discuss CAC, more than a few have posted that non-CAC coins are “dreck”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If your objection is that CAC and/or JA are being called "perfect and omnipotent", I don't recall anyone ever saying that. You correctly point out that JA has avoided that label but I don't know of any of his supporters who claim that? On this thread no one has said everything non cac is dreck---no one. However, people who buy CAC coins have been accused on this thread of having to have their hand held and being cult like.
Spot on, however I would substitute current and in at least one case retired dealers for collectors. Most collectors don't have the hatred and spit all the vitriol that I see from so many dealers, I'm sure that added layers like this make it much harder to sell C level wares for A level prices.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
If CAC doesn't benefit you, you are of course free to ignore their stickers. What it sounds like, is that you want other people to regard CAC the way you do, but they're just not doing it.
But i didn't say that. Who says he's perfect?
No one has been given that power.
I don't think anybody has argued otherwise.
Who's saying he's perfect? Not anybody I have seen. As for financial interests, I'm sure convincing people to disregard CAC is in the financial interests of some.
To the extent that people are saying that, I'd agree.
These CAC threads always have nine lives. Wow....
Dave
It seems there should be at least some fundamental understanding as to what is truly CAC submission worthy. Several generic coins in various series seem to go to CAC even though the spread between grades really does not warrant such a review. Even nice original high end circulated coins really don't need a sticker. The original look should be the narrative ... Not a sticker.
Maybe JA should consider offering some guidance as to submission worthy coins and those that just simply do not require an added layer in an effort to reduce submissions. There are simply millions of coins graded by PCGS and NGC that just do not need the service. How many MS 65 1880-s Morgans does JA really need to look at? I would suggest zero. How many has he looked at? I suspect it could be significant... Perhaps 8-10% of the total graded population? So what is the real benefit? Is it for grading confirmation or marketing?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
LOL! I bet we are past a baker's dozen!
Somehow I knew I would get sucked into this thread... sigh.
I made a post of outlandish CAC quotes from this forum once, and it should be floating around here somewhere if it wasn't deleted. Yes posters have said those things (e.g. "CAC is always right," "why bother with non-CAC coins," labeled non-CAC coins as almost always over graded or problem coins, etc.). I'm not just talking about the vocal CAC shareholders or former shareholders either sadly. In any event, those that claim that they don't believe CAC is always right or that everything else is dreck and yet insist on PCGS/CAC anyway as only those are the "real deal" or "real stuff" (real quote from the forums) are really just gaslighting us if they pretend that they don't believe those things in my humble opinion.
“It’s a highly deceptive world, one that constantly asks you to comment but doesn’t really care what you have to say.”
― David Levithan,
I have bought many coins without CAC stickers and in NGC holders. A double whammy but I liked the coins so I bought them. I eventually tried to convert them all into PCGS holders. I was largely successful. The ones that didn’t cross I did sell off. The coins that crossed all stickered except for a couple. I still have them albeit they are now dupes.
I love the combo of PCGS and CAC for my personal preference. I won’t apologize for that. But, it would never stop me from buying a coin that wasn’t stickered or in a PCGS holder.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm confused Mark. You call what Bill posted as Hyperbole......yet you clicked "Like" on it!??
Probably just checking to see who agreed with him. It’s been rescinded
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I TOTALLY agree with this statement.
Buy the coin, not the plastic, the sticker, the hype or the sizzle,
Of course, no one does have that much control. The “market” decides for itself.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The OP's concern here is my biggest problem with CAC. Coins without stickers are looked upon as inferior. My other concern is that one man's opinion carries much too much weight. When I am looking at a coin it doesn't matter if it is stickered or not if I like the coin. Sorta like @CaptHenway stated above. I don't remove stickers, but I have a lot of coins that were stickered, but lost the sticker when I sent them in to get attributed as a variety. And I'm sure not going to spend money sending them in to get restickered.
Well perhaps there is a simple explanation. Maybe they don't know about CAC or do not know how to submit to them or just don't care at this point..
How often do you by raw US coins these days ? Just curious.....
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I used to do it regularly when I was a dealer. Now not so much because the upside is limited.
Do you have similar concerns about PCGS coins and the fact that, often, non-PCGS “are looked upon as inferior”? If not, why not?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mr. A's opinion only carries the weight that others voluntarily give it. Why does it concern you that other people view his opinion differently than you do? Lots of people consider PCGS's opinion to carry a lot of weight. Any concern there?