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Random Thought on Dealer Inventory and CAC
FranklinHalfAddict
Posts: 651 ✭✭✭✭✭
Was at a show this past weekend and stopped at an older dealer’s table. Dealer was probably in his late 70s, if I had to guess. 90% of his inventory at the show was slabbed and I noticed not a one of those slabs had a CAC sticker.
Later on in the day I was thinking about the lack of CAC. Does this dealer not buy anything that is CACed? Does he peel off the stickers? Does he not send any of his inventory to CAC? Is it safe to assume most of his inventory has not been to CAC?
Has anyone else ever noticed a dealer who’s inventory was devoid of CAC stickers and thought any of those same questions?
I did end up buying a really nice Norfolk commem from him, MS65 in an OGH.
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Perhaps he knows how to grade coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I would have ask him.
Some of us don't care about CAC
My Saint Set
I doubt that CAC labels are being removed from coins...I have been wrong before.
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I like CAC and it does make a difference in coins that count, but I often do not send that much into CAC, not because of the cost, but cost of postage and time. Lots of ebay stuff I sell I don't send into them , but I probably should.
I know of a couple of dealers who send everything into cac first, before they offer it.
So basically what I am saying, a lot of my ebay inventory is not cac, not because its been tried, but just don't bother sending it. But if I am asked if it has, I am alwys up front about wether it has or hasn't if I know.
Perhaps he’s missing the pinky toe on his right foot.
Fantastic contribution to the thread!
I will have to when I see him again.
Perhaps he's an old-timer who doesn't see the value in it, or he doesn't want his inventory tied up for 2 weeks. The world may never know.
Collector, occasional seller
I see both on the bourse. No CAC or all CAC. I can tell who who’s coins generally look a lot better
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
He has no use for CAC nor wants the expense paying sticker cost. Unless big increase in bid value between CAC and non CAC no incentive. I would think he knows how to grade.
It seems like CAC a big deal here but not at shows. I have a show this weekend will take a look - none of the dealers setup around me do CAC or even care about it - I have a few CAC. People at shows will ask price but won’t pay the money. A couple really CAC PQ pieces moved online.
Now where you have a coin where the spread to the CAC bid is high there could be incentive but then u gotta find the guy pay CAC money.
At last show major dealer had big display Pcgs 63-65 genetic dollars close to bid. Probably some rolls walked in the shop. Would be waste of money try sticker that material. Then u have get more for them.
Now somebody just selling ) $10,000 coins and above to rich people can c incentive get CAC if material uptick in bid value. People w that kinda money here looking for gold coins close to melt - NGC69 AGB, Pcgs 64 Saint close to melt, Mexico 50 Oeso.
Some of us don't need to have our hand held when we buy coins. Some of us know that you can't take everything you see at face value.
I doubt that he is pealing off the stickers. I don't remove them from the coins I buy.
I don’t attend enough shows to have ever noticed. I just happened to this time.
Yep and for the most part I see recycled overgraded unattractive coins at shows. See the irony? Hardly worth going anymore. Most people couldn’t grade there way out of a thin paper bag. Ever try a PCGS grading contest? It’s humbling
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Surely you know that many of the sharpest dealers and collectors buy CAC coins and/or submit coins to CAC. You could have just as easily and correctly surmised that "Perhaps he doesn't know how to grade coins".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I doubt many of them walking in door even know what CAC is nor can afford. I am really curious now will try see if CAC Coins at the show. Houston not the money gravity well like LA. Most likely US coins will have some. Mainly in past there buy and sell w public or pickup bullion coins. Show goal: acquire a nice CAC coin.
Nope no Pcgs grading contest but submissions of crack outs a couple upgrade no downgrade.
If I was a coin dealer everything in my inventory priced higher then $500 would make a trip to CAC.
Some random comments to your OP that hopefully are helpful
1) I would be interested in seeing this dealer's inventory, his pricing and his turnover. He may focus on selling coins for "bargain prices" and therefore has a lot of "C" coins or overgraded coins. That would explain his complete lack of CAC. Trade off of price vs. quality.
2) It may be that CAC is not a factor in the types of coins he sells and he doesn't bother. If a dealer for instance sells any type of gold, he would be crazy not to try a get CAC on his coins because they could increase the value by as much as 300%. Other coins the CAC sticker does not move the price as much (by the way, this would seem to be an opportunity to find coins in this series and get them stickered and not pay a premium---one day they may have a premium).
3) One comment was "some of us don't need to have our hand held" buying a coin. Well this dealer is selling to people who may need help so I am not sure the point. In recent interviews, JA and others have pointed out the tiny number of dealers and collectors who can grade between a 63, 63+ and 64-so more people need help then maybe they realize. I also can't understand why seeking out another set of eyes is frowned upon? I frequently contact a dealer friend to give his opinion on a coin or take into consideration what a TPG has graded a coin----why not utilize an expert like JA to give his opinion? At the end of the day, I will still decide on whether to buy a coin or not based upon what I see but having the help of a dealer, TPGs and CAC seems to be prudent.
No way I could do it unless it's all saints between 63-67.
But if it was.....I'd put my money where my mouth is.
My Saint Set
I asked a couple of dealers about it. One told me “I don’t sell that kind of stuff” and he was right. Another said something rather unkind about JA and I basically gathered that he made it a point to avoid stickered coins. I’m sure people have their reasons, and I also agree that it’s a bigger deal here than in 95% of the coin collecting universe. Slabbed coins are a rarity at my club and people don’t really know or care about stickers.
I believe no 1 likely in many inventories for others who do mods, raw bullion, currency, world a moot issue. Possibly high end coins picked off. One can go to same well so many times.
But if the guy has really nice stuff where sticker big uptick in bid values........
I'm guessing since the dealer already paid for a professional grading opinion with the slab he's probably thinking now why on earth would I pay someone else to tell me what the experts already did?
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
FWIW
I’m pretty good on investments. I still have a financial advisor.
I know plenty of scratch golfers that have coaches. Heck, the best golfers in the world have swing coaches
So when I hear some of us don’t need our hands held when it comes to coins it makes me chuckle. If I’m spending my dough I want as much advice as humanly possible. First off if it’s in a slab that advise. Second if it’s stickered that’s a coin thats been in for a second opinion. That second opinion is somebody that formed PCGS with others. Founded NGC. Graded over a million coins out of their slabs. So that second opinion is quite valid from where I sit.
When a doctor gives you a serous diagnosis do you get a second opinion? I do.
It’s been said before but those that rail against CAC are often the ones that need the most help.
I’m not afraid to seek help or have my hand held on a coin purchase. There, I said it. My collection is important to me as well as those that helped me put part of it together including John Albanese. I find no shame in it
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Would you let a Walker proof go by that was nice looking and didn't have a sticker?
If I was doing a type set, I'd be very interested in what JA has to say about the coin.
But I'm not.
My Saint Set
hand-holding at the point of purchase is fine and hopefully it doesn't lead to long, hot showers!!
My proof set used to be #2. The easiest coin (1942) I “only” have a 67 that cost more then almost all 68s. I chose it because it’s awesome. Not worried about points. It’s also my only coin that’s not stickered. Actually Mark Feld represented me in auction on that coin . I know why John didn't sticker the coin. He was right. I still have the coin. It will remain in the set until something better comes along.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Ah mint grade saints. The poster child for grade inflation and the very creation of CAC. The most over graded coin in holders
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I am surprised how biased many of the members are here towards CAC. To me it is just another erosion of my bottom line if I am going to have to have my inventory CAC'd. It would cost me close to $30,000 to have my Barber Half inventory CAC'd not including the shipping and insurance! I do have a few CAC ones in inventory and see absolutely no difference in my prices realized.
I just bought a better date on ebay that was CAC'd for less than 1/2 what I have sold two other non CAC's examples for in the past. I was absolutely floored I won the coin so cheap and I'm sure the seller was also! I'm glad he doesn't shill!
Now granted the majority of my inventory is in the $200-$1000 range. I could see it on 5 figure coins. I will say the majority of mid grade Barber Half collectors don't need CAC to tell them if their coin is nice for the grade or not. I have had a couple of people ask me on ebay why my coins aren't CAC'd and my reply is along these lines.
It's amazing to me....raw used to be OK, now Certified is expected, and the new wave is CAC now? And the funniest part is these types that want certified CAC stuff always whip out a greysheet and expect you to sell to them at those levels!
I passed by both of my CAC coins because I didn't want to pay the premium.
After finding nothing better I doubled back and checked them out.
The only reason I bought them is because they were no-brainer crossovers & + upgrades.
(which they did)
They don't have stickers now because I never bothered to send them back.
My Saint Set
That's kinda dumb IMO. One may not like them, but if they're on the slab why shoot yourself in the foot and leave money on the table by removing them?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
The trouble is there is only one doctor in town, and his advice has too often been inconsistent and disappointing. When his followers describe him as “the greatest doctor ever,” and you are told that you are going to die if you don’t purchase his medicine, the time has come to move out of town where there are other doctors. Those towns include tokens, medals and foreign coins.
I'm done with this conversation because it can only turn toxic from here. This is my view, and I have thought long and hard about it. When a hobby ceases to be fun you get out of it or you make changes.
Sounds like an old schooler who is behind the times. Unless they are priced high, he's settin himself up to be cherry picked. There's probly still a few out there who know only raw coins.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
I don’t think people will be spending money to CAC generic dollars in 63 or 64, let alone much below $300 MV. Will they pay 50-70 pct premium bc of sticker? Not me.
I do Currency, Mods and world so CAC not a biggie for me. How much longer do you think they will be around?
From what seen If they want CAC will have to pay the money. Yes pull out your GS / have some CAC you want sell me at 80 pct CDN bid? Better hurry summer doldrums coming. The bids could decline further.
The old schooler probably knows how to tell A and B coins plus price them - A CDN bid plus50 pct, B CDN plus 30 pct, C CDN plus 10 pct. No he does not need sticker or the expense. Bill my mentor who I k ew from coin club starting out setting up at shows in 1990 shares your view on the CAC thingy. He is among the best in professionalism, knowledge, business sense.
JA has said himself that there's lots of stuff that the spread isn't wide enough to matter. Maybe the dealer in the OP's case only sells that kind of stuff. OP mentioned a commem, I don't think CAC has helped much in that space, or (OMG) maybe it has.
Hyperbole.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I can’t blame someone spending money CAC where the spread justifies it. ID the items /grade in your area w big spread there’s your wantlist acquire stuff 2 CAC.
Book Idea - 100 (hopefully affordable) Coins one Should CAC.
I'm sure I will be sensored, but be glad CAC exists.
And here we go yet again...
Smitten with DBLCs.
Oh look, another CAC thread.
Just like any tool, CAC has it's place and is useful.
I wouldn't follow them, blindly, but their existence is definitely a positive thing.
Just remember that knowledge is also empowering and so is good sense.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Can't say I've seen any dealers with zero CAC-ed coins. Most I visit seem to have maybe 5% stickered.
I noticed several dealers at the most recent Long Beach show that had 100% CAC-ed coins. Some are clearly buying into it Big Time. Fancy!
Dave
I noticed besides Legend, Mike’s Coin Chest offers also offers PCGS CAC coins only. His inventory had always been impressive.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I know if I was in my late 70's I would not give a rats a*s about some stupid sticker in the least bit.
It sounds like a clothing store. Link?
For those owning 4-5 figure MS/PF coins and you're 70 and don't give a care about CAC and their standards....be prepared for yourself or your heirs to take a whupping at time of disposition. On a $50K collection that can be $10K-$30K down the drain.
I don't really know, but I think there's a lot about the rare coin retail and wholesale market that average Joe's don't understand at all. I've had a few dealers who are friends let me "look under the hood" a little bit. A VERY little bit, trust me. It's dang interesting and it helped me understand why dealers do the things they do sometimes.
So, if you're confused about why some dealers do and other dealers don't have stickers, consider the fact that some dealers are shareholders in CAC. What do you think they're likely to sell? Some do naughty things to coins. Guess what they sell.
Some dealers operate with inventory they own and some are heavily leveraged. Some (most?) are financially fronted by a smattering of different players in the business.
It drives me crazy that people forget that the nicest coins have always sold for premium prices! On average, nicer coins tend to live in holders with stickers. Lots of people can identify nice coins. Some are better at it than others. Exceptions abound and people get hung up on solitary times that something weird happened.
So buy what you like for prices you can accept and don't forget to have fun. Look around a big show sometimes. Many of the collectors seem to be miserably trudging their way around the bourse. If the TPG thing or the sticker thing or the crackout thing or the gradeflation thing or the doctoring thing or the rude dealer thing or the mustard stain thing drives you crazy, maybe go fishing instead.
Rant over.
Yeah I meant Mike’s Coin Chest. Not sure why I typed that
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Grading coins and marketing them to collectors are two different questions. And clearly there is a need for CAC for coins at a certain grade level where the spread between grades is significant. However, there are just too many instances were CAC is utilized for coins that just do not warrant the extra expense. My concern remains that there seems to be an unfounded negative inference among certain collectors if a graded coin does not have a sticker. If the coin is no longer the focal point, the hobby has entered a new realm.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I can't wait until other services like CAC arise. With enough time, coin holders will look like a general's chest with all his military medals. No coin will be adequate unless it has all 42 beans, stickers and stamps of approvals of all the respectable and honorable grading "authorities".
@coinkat - If the coin is no longer the focal point, the hobby has entered a new realm.
Very well said. I think we’re there.
Dave