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Poll: Chop Marked Morgan
rawmorgan
Posts: 618 ✭✭✭
I found this today on a auction website, thought I would post it for fun.
Not my coin, and its still being auctioned off so I'm just going to post the image.
As far as I know the coin is being auctioned off a "raw."
Poll: Chop Marked Morgan
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I do not like the look of those chop marks.... That being said, they 'could' be authentic, but I do not see them in my reference book....Cheers, RickO
So how does one authenticate a chop mark? Marks look as worn as the coin. How big is your chop mark book @ricko?
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@Namvet69.... It is Rose's book...at one time the only compilation of chop marks... admittedly, he likely did not catalog every chop mark... but it was recognized as a legitimate reference of the time. It has been out of print for years now.... sometimes you can find a copy at bookstores or on the net. Cheers, RickO
Any ideas @RogerB?
I think this is it. @Ricko can chime in and correct me if I'm wrong. Apparently there was a reprint in 2000, but it is difficult to find even online.
https://books.google.com/books/about/Chopmarks.html?id=7fZSAAAACAAJ
Question from the Ignorant:
Isn't post-1900 pretty late for chop marks?
Is there an accepted time frame when chop marks were generally used?
Yeah, I know...I could "chop" a coin tomorrow, and it would be "legit". Just wouldn't be historically significant...
@cameonut2011... Yes, that is the one.... I have what I think is an earlier edition... but definitely Rose's book. Cheers, RickO
I might well be wrong but weren't those types of chops (raised character) earlier than the more common incused ones?
Maybe it was chopped in a Chinese community here in the US?
This was my concern. I have never seen a chop marked coin minted this late, and also be from the new Orleans mint.
I saw the OP coin and I also need a chop marked Morgan from New Orleans for my set, but I won't be bidding on this one. Why don't I like it? Because I can't say with confidence that these are or are not legit chopmarks.
I personally own hundreds of chopmarked coins, and have viewed thousands, and never seen a Chinese chopmark like either of these marks. At least not the marks that I have come to understand are marks associated with the China trade system. They could just be some kind of Chinese hallmarks not associated with trade, but for me that makes them uninteresting and undesirable.
As pointed out above, not many coins outside of Chinese, Japanese, British Trade Dollars and Philippine Pesos were chopped in China post 1900. You'll also find the Mexican 8R/Pesos mixed in there as well too. The latest Morgan I've seen with chops was an 1882-S. There could be more out there, just haven't seen anything close to 1900.
This is just all my opinion, of course.
Old embossings put there long ago. Whether "real" or "known" merchant chop marks, I have no clue. They are cool even if an Atlanta merchant stamped them in the 1920s.
Chops are not authentic. Don't even resemble conventional chops, especially not post-1900, when chop size was beginning to decrease. Someone took a Morgan and tried to make it more interesting.
Have to go with the chop experts - they kind of look "odd" though; I thought Chinese bankers preferred simple incuse characters rather than a cartouche.
For the most part, yes, although the chop on that 1859-S seated dollar posted last week was cartouche-ish and I believe it to be real. Here's a couple of chopmarked Morgans for comparison.
I've seen a 78-CC Morgan with legit chopmarks as well. @ChopmarkedTrades has a nice chopped morgan, maybe he'll share his here as well.
FYI. The China Broadcasting Company has an extensive historical series on private Chinese bankers, their relationships, practices and interactions with government and large official banks. Fascinating stuff - it's dubbed in English.
Ask and ye shall receive. Hope you're getting some use out of that buckle.
Interesting piece... and discussion. Thanks for posting.
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Interesting discussion and I have refrained from chiming in because... I am just not sure. Especially since I can't see it in person.
I too have owned hundreds of chopmarked coins and seen thousands of others. I have never seen seen a U.S. coin dated that late with a chop mark. It is extremely improbable that: 1) a Morgan Dollar, 2) minted in New Orleans, 3) in 1900, is legitimately chopmarked. And I cannot ever recall seeing those particular chops. Finally, most chopmarked coins are not that worn.
That said, nothing I see screams out to me "fake."
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
Interesting and informative thread !
