Poll: Chop Marked Morgan

rawmorgan

I found this today on a auction website, thought I would post it for fun.
Not my coin, and its still being auctioned off so I'm just going to post the image.
As far as I know the coin is being auctioned off a "raw."

ricko

I do not like the look of those chop marks.... That being said, they 'could' be authentic, but I do not see them in my reference book....Cheers, RickO

Namvet69

So how does one authenticate a chop mark? Marks look as worn as the coin. How big is your chop mark book @ricko?

ricko

@Namvet69.... It is Rose's book...at one time the only compilation of chop marks... admittedly, he likely did not catalog every chop mark... but it was recognized as a legitimate reference of the time. It has been out of print for years now.... sometimes you can find a copy at bookstores or on the net. Cheers, RickO

cameonut2011

Any ideas @RogerB?

cameonut2011

@Namvet69 said:
So how does one authenticate a chop mark? Marks look as worn as the coin. How big is your chop mark book @ricko?

I think this is it. @Ricko can chime in and correct me if I'm wrong. Apparently there was a reprint in 2000, but it is difficult to find even online.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Chopmarks.html?id=7fZSAAAACAAJ

TommyType

Question from the Ignorant:

Isn't post-1900 pretty late for chop marks?
Is there an accepted time frame when chop marks were generally used?

Yeah, I know...I could "chop" a coin tomorrow, and it would be "legit". Just wouldn't be historically significant...

ricko

@cameonut2011... Yes, that is the one.... I have what I think is an earlier edition... but definitely Rose's book. Cheers, RickO

JBK

Coin is Authentic, Chop Marks are not

I might well be wrong but weren't those types of chops (raised character) earlier than the more common incused ones?

Maybe it was chopped in a Chinese community here in the US?

rawmorgan

@TommyType said:
Question from the Ignorant:

Isn't post-1900 pretty late for chop marks?
Is there an accepted time frame when chop marks were generally used?

Yeah, I know...I could "chop" a coin tomorrow, and it would be "legit". Just wouldn't be historically significant...

This was my concern. I have never seen a chop marked coin minted this late, and also be from the new Orleans mint.

OriginalDan

Coin is Authentic, Chop Marks are not

I saw the OP coin and I also need a chop marked Morgan from New Orleans for my set, but I won't be bidding on this one. Why don't I like it? Because I can't say with confidence that these are or are not legit chopmarks.

• I personally own hundreds of chopmarked coins, and have viewed thousands, and never seen a Chinese chopmark like either of these marks. At least not the marks that I have come to understand are marks associated with the China trade system. They could just be some kind of Chinese hallmarks not associated with trade, but for me that makes them uninteresting and undesirable.

• As pointed out above, not many coins outside of Chinese, Japanese, British Trade Dollars and Philippine Pesos were chopped in China post 1900. You'll also find the Mexican 8R/Pesos mixed in there as well too. The latest Morgan I've seen with chops was an 1882-S. There could be more out there, just haven't seen anything close to 1900.

• Morgans in general weren't widely exported to China. A few did end up there, but very few ended up there and most were surely melted.

This is just all my opinion, of course.

roadrunner

This is a zebra in a herd of horses (coin and chop marks are authentic)

Old embossings put there long ago. Whether "real" or "known" merchant chop marks, I have no clue. They are cool even if an Atlanta merchant stamped them in the 1920s.

ChopmarkedTrades

Coin is Authentic, Chop Marks are not

Chops are not authentic. Don't even resemble conventional chops, especially not post-1900, when chop size was beginning to decrease. Someone took a Morgan and tried to make it more interesting.

RogerB

@cameonut2011 said:
Any ideas @RogerB?

Have to go with the chop experts - they kind of look "odd" though; I thought Chinese bankers preferred simple incuse characters rather than a cartouche.

OriginalDan

Coin is Authentic, Chop Marks are not

@RogerB said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Any ideas @RogerB?

Have to go with the chop experts - they kind of look "odd" though; I thought Chinese bankers preferred simple incuse characters rather than a cartouche.

For the most part, yes, although the chop on that 1859-S seated dollar posted last week was cartouche-ish and I believe it to be real. Here's a couple of chopmarked Morgans for comparison.

I've seen a 78-CC Morgan with legit chopmarks as well. @ChopmarkedTrades has a nice chopped morgan, maybe he'll share his here as well.

RogerB

FYI. The China Broadcasting Company has an extensive historical series on private Chinese bankers, their relationships, practices and interactions with government and large official banks. Fascinating stuff - it's dubbed in English.

ChopmarkedTrades

Coin is Authentic, Chop Marks are not

@OriginalDan said:
I've seen a 78-CC Morgan with legit chopmarks as well. @ChopmarkedTrades has a nice chopped morgan, maybe he'll share his here as well.

Ask and ye shall receive. Hope you're getting some use out of that buckle.

lkenefic

Interesting piece... and discussion. Thanks for posting.

DDR

Interesting discussion and I have refrained from chiming in because... I am just not sure. Especially since I can't see it in person.

I too have owned hundreds of chopmarked coins and seen thousands of others. I have never seen seen a U.S. coin dated that late with a chop mark. It is extremely improbable that: 1) a Morgan Dollar, 2) minted in New Orleans, 3) in 1900, is legitimately chopmarked. And I cannot ever recall seeing those particular chops. Finally, most chopmarked coins are not that worn.

That said, nothing I see screams out to me "fake."

RogerB

Interesting and informative thread !