50 Years of Numismatic Collecting Experience - Grading Changes, Thoughts & Perspectives
Stuart
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50 Years of Numismatic Collecting Experience - Grading Changes, Thoughts & Perspectives
As one of the “Old Timers” who began collecting 50 years ago, prior to TPGS Certified Numerically Graded plastic slabs, here’s my perspective.
There are different goals, objectives and priorities between Collectors enjoying Numismatics as a Hobby/Pastime & Dealers maximizing profit as a Business. Some of those goals are aligned & some aren’t.
When I first started collecting Type Coins & PL/DMPL Morgan Dollars back in the early 1970’s there were only 3 Descriptive grading categories of Mint Sate Coins (UNC/BU, Choice BU & Gem BU) and one Almost Uncirculated (AU) category.
Then Numeric Grading was introduced as an additional descriptor for the 3 above-mentioned grades: MS-60 = UNC/BU, MS-63 = Choice BU & MS-65 = Gem BU. Back then the adjective Brilliant indicated Unspotted & Untoned Superior Eye Appeal & Valuation than “Tarnished” or Toned coins.
As an example the US Govt GSA CC Morgan Dollar Sales beginning in 1970 included 2 descriptive quality categories on their plastic govt issued slabs - One Premium Group marked Uncirculated and a Lesser Quality Group including “Tarnished”, Toned, or other problematic coins without the word Uncirculated on the govt slab. — Back then Brilliant White coins were preferred and valued more than Toned coins.
TPGS Certified Grading was introduced to standardize wildly varying grading standards and to promote Investing in Coins. I suggest the following excellent Scott Travers Oct 1997 Article posted on PCGS’ web site for reference. https://www.pcgs.com/news/wall-streets-move-to-rare-coins
Since the introduction of the TPGS’s in the late 1980’s numismatics has experienced huge price increases and price fluctuations in some of the higher graded coins, focusing much Business attention to them as a vehicle to potentially make large profits certifying Choice to Gem examples, and then Cracking and/or Upgrading Certified coins perceived to be conservatively or undergraded.
Just as the Wall Street Financial marketplace profits from equity price volatility and resulting stock share & bond, etc volume increases, many participants in the Rare Coin Marketplace (Dealers & Collectors) can profit from both Coin Price Volatility & Evolving (Changing) Grading Standards.
As a collector, I prefer to focus my attention on affordable Highly Eye-Appealing, Well-Struck, Lustrous Examples (some Toned & Brilliant) that appeal to me. If they appear undergraded I see that as a buying opportunity - not to crack and flip them for quick profit, but to add them to my collection.
I'd much rather have a fully-struck lustrous ”Gem” AU-58 depicting more of the coin's design, than a weakly struck technically Mint State coin exhibiting less detail (Ref: 1892-CC Morgan Dollar Image below).
Finally, Registry Sets have very significantly affected Numismatics, it can be argued for better or to its detriment. IMO the primary reason that an MS-70 or Proof 70 DCAM Modern coin sells for huge multiples over it’s MS-69 counterpart is based on increased collector demand to compete in Registry Sets. That’s fine if the collector wishes to spend the multiples of money on marginally incremental technical grading - however, that’s not why I collect coins. But to each his own, and if that’s how others enjoy their collecting, similar to competing in Fantasy Football that’s totally up to them.
Thanks for reading this long thread. I’m looking forward to others’ thoughts and comments on the points that I’ve raised. 
1892-CC PCGS AU-58 Morgan Dollar
Photos courtesy of Mike Printz - Harlan Berk Numismatics
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Comments
if I knew then what I know now........................I believe it would have been possible for me to retire at an earlier age and probably gotten more enjoyment from the Hobby.
@Stuart .... Since your post mirrors my experience..well, except that my collecting exceeds fifty years.... I take no exceptions and heartily agree with you. Cheers, RickO
Interesting thoughts. Thanks.
I got into collecting before the transition to modern junk and my perspective is much different and tied to my experiences. The government didn't just remove silver from circulation, they took numerous steps to punish coin collectors because they believed it was we who caused a massive coin shortage. One of these steps caused the collapse of the coin market in '64/ '65 and shaped the nature of coin collecting forever.
I was fortunate as I never went for what was popular so my collections (mostly buffalo nickels from pocket change) were virtually unaffected and I even made a small profit in 1968 when I sold them all. But almost everyone I knew lost money and some lost a great deal of money and even more in opportunity costs.
Since 1964 people simply have ignored new coins because we are still stinging from governmental actions and the simple fact that the coins are still "debased junk" that most people equate with Chuck-ee-Cheese tokens or Shell Game Tokens. One of the biggest shocks of '64/ '65 was that everything in circulation was removed in short order and replaced with new "coins". In retrospect getting rid of all that heavily picked over and worn silver was more like a mercy killing since there were no longer any good coins of any denomination. But at the time it seemed the end of the world.
Since then one thing after another has grabbed collector attention and then fallen by the wayside leaving most participants with hefty losses. We think of the '89 boom as being investment driven but lose sight of the fact that big and high grade silver was the darling of the market long before the dollars started flowing in and causing the ridiculously high prices for common coins. This was just the first time outsiders got caught up in "numismatic" nonsense. There were lots of great coins going begging in 1989 but people didn't buy those. In Pittsburgh (ANA) that year I had a chance to buy Indian mint sets for a few dollars each but even I passed on them. Now they go for thousands.
People like to do what everyone else does because they feel most comfortable in crowds. They buy bitcoin at 10,000 and sell at 3000.
Even in 1965 there were bargain everywhere but who wouldda thought of stashing away Gems and varieties. Almost nobody did.
The market exists to service collectors because collectors are the source of the money coming in. To capture this money dealers must supply what the market demands. The market is shaped by what collectors believe and do which is largely dependent on history and the experience of the individuals involved. It oscillates to the tune of nature itself in a choreographed dance that often is quite obscured and can even be affected by smoke and mirrors. Ya' rolls ya' dice and takes your chances. Sometimes they come up "heads" and sometimes they come up "tails". But always the point of the hobby and the source of the "good money" in the hobby is collectors who are just trying to have fun.
@Stuart
Thank you for posting your experience and perspective. A post like yours is greatly needed to get firsthand information/knowledge out into the coin community. We cannot succeed in the future without knowing the past. IMO.
I remember skipping school on a Friday while in HS and making a road trip to a show in Monroeville PA almost 40 years ago. (Not sure when the PAN shows started, but the timing and location match). My buddy and I were talking to Art Kagin Sr. and asked him how we could make money in rare coins. He suggested that we should search for full strike examples like full head SLQs, FSB Mercs, and FBL Franklins. He showed us some really nice Franklins. I thanked him and promptly spent my money on some shiny bobble that caught my eye that's not worth much today. Oh, if I would have listened.
Didn't somebody once say, "Youth is wasted on the young".
I remember thinking "AU" meant "Average Uncirculated".
I have learned that the best and the worst part of the hobby are fellow collectors.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Many years ago, a friend told me a story about a worm that crawled into an apple, stayed there, and came to believe that the apple was his whole world. I feel like way too many of us have similarly crawled into the grading apple, and that we’re missing a huge part of what our hobby offers.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
This may be the most thought provoking comment I've seen on this forum---Thank you!
Good post. Grading is a tool meant to help us communicate. It's not supposed to be the thing.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Stuart, thanks for your thoughts.
Do you think the coin volatility is more or less gone or at least kept to a minimum with the advent of CAC and easily accessible internet price guides and auction archives? Other than the shysters, is anyone trying to make huge profits the honest way, with just a superior knowledge of grading and understanding of the market? If this is the case, do you think the average collector is better served or worse off from this?
And do you think it’s better to be collecting now or decades ago? (Balancing what are now higher prices and some silly points competition against better availability of knowledge, better accessibility of coins via internet websites and online auctions, better confidence in assigned grades, and of course the comeraderie of the online forum)
Thanks!
As I read the boards, most of the interest seems to be, "What is the next issue of coins that going to make money for me?" This is especially true for the new coins that the mint issues. Some these coins become a hot item for a while, but as time goes on and new "flavors of the month" come on the market, and those previous "prime investments" become one more quiet line in the Red Book.
Today there are more great books published about coins than there ever was in 1969. Back then, there was The Red Book, Penny Whimsey, the first Overton half dollar book and US. Coinage by Don Taxy. There were magazines like "COINage," "Coins," and to a lesser extent "The Numismatist." Whitman tried to start the "Whitman Numismatic Journal" but it failed. Yet it seemed back then that collecting was the prime goal. Sure, some pushed the profits that could be made, but they were mostly interested in rolls and speculations in the price of silver, with a lesser interest in modern things like Franklin Half Dollars.
Today it seems like making money through the marketing of certified coin grades is the centerpiece of the hobby. General history, rarity and classic coins with a long track record of collector interest all take a back seat. Everything has to be high end, certitifed Mint State or it’s not worth collecting.
It can go either way. The answer depends mostly on what you collect, what you know, where you live and how much time you want to devote to your hobby.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
And do you think it’s better to be collecting now or decades ago? (Balancing what are now higher prices and some silly points competition against better availability of knowledge, better accessibility of coins via internet websites and online auctions, better confidence in assigned grades, and of course the comeraderie of the online forum)
If you were "smarter than the average bear," you were patient, and knew where to go for coins you wanted, you were much better off in the 1960s. It was much more difficult to have a sense of what a coin was actually worth, because auction results and the like were not readily available, if available at all.
The best local venue, in the Los Angeles area, to find a broad spectrum of coins were the George Bennett auctions at the Masonic Hall, in Van Nuys. Mail bids were rare, phone bids were unheard of, and if you were lucky, there was nice material at the end of the auction and more than half of the bidders already had left.
You had to be quick. George was like a North Carolina tobacco auctioneer. If you looked at him, belched or farted, it was a bid, whether you raised your paddle or not. Lighting in the hall was bad. It was easy to miss a scratch on a coin, which could make all of the difference in the world as to its value.
Because of the lighting, I made one expensive mistake. However, the good value I got on other lots more than made up for it.
The one thing which I would never do pre TPGs was to buy a popular, expensive, frequently alterered coin, like the 09S VDB cent or the 16D dime. Yes, I knew the diagnostics re what to look for, but that was too much of a risk for me to take.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Reading your response just now, i find it very helpful in making me appreciate my collection.
I collect on a meager budget. Still I want my collection to be very eye appealing. I know that there is probably not room for tremendous value growth so I am learning I have to be much more selective.
Thanks, Stuart, I'm not sure why that cc Morgan graded AU58, seems better.
If collectors have a lot of extra money they have some more latitude to buy with a little more risk. Most of the collectors and club members I have known don't have much disposable income so they buy cautiously.
@MrEureka I completely agree with your quoted post (below) from earlier in this thread.
As mentioned in the first post in this thread, as a collector I prefer to focus my attention on affordable Highly Eye-Appealing, Well-Struck, Lustrous Examples (some Toned & Brilliant) of certain design series that particularly appeal to me.
I prefer to focus on the aesthetics such as the Beauty and Detail of the coin design, and either Deeply Mirrored reflective surfaces, or coins with beautiful Swirling Cartwheel Mint Luster.
I started collecting Prooflike (PL) & Deep Mirror Prooflike (DMPL) Morgan Dollars back in the 1970’s well before the advent of TPGS Certified Grading, as “Poor Man’s” Proofs. At that time I would happily select premium common date Morgan Dollars in the $15-25 price range, and when better date Carson City Morgan Dollars and other Type Coins were more affordable.
I specifically like to collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and 17th, 18th & 19th Century World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
Although I don’t focus on acquiring the Highest Graded coins, I enjoy purchasing and owning affordable coins typically in Choice Uncirculated (MS-63 to 64) grades prior to them reaching higher “Jump Grades” with significant incremental price escalation.
If a coin with High Eye-Appeal that I like appears to be undergraded, I see that as a buying opportunity - not to crack and flip them for quick profit, but to add an affordable choice coin to my collection.
As an example, I'd much rather have a fully-struck lustrous ”Gem” AU-58 (such as the 1892-CC Morgan Dollar pictured above) depicting more of the coin's design, than a weakly struck technically Mint State coin exhibiting less detail.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Since the introduction of the TPGS’s in the late 1980’s numismatics has experienced huge price increases and price fluctuations in some of the higher graded coins, focusing much Business attention to them as a vehicle to potentially make large profits certifying Choice to Gem examples, and then Cracking and/or Upgrading Certified coins perceived to be conservatively or undergraded.
The first very large increase in coin prices occurred well before the TPG's were around, 1976-1980. In many series, some coins have not returned to those lofty levels. If one followed gem type coins in that era, they in essence went up 5X to 15X due to the 1977-1980 gold/silver rally. The TPG's along with Wall Street Money did help prices regroup once again in the 1986-1989 run up. And the peaks seen in 1989 in many generics and choice/gem MS/PF 63-67 type coins may never be seen again. 30 yrs is a long time passing since a price peak.
For some of the scarcer and underrated coins they did reach new highs again by 2008, but most of them didn't. The run up into 1989 had relatively little to do with cracking out coins as most everything hitting the auctions and bourse floors were still raw. Scores were made by buying a coin raw at auction and getting a grade that was 1-3 points higher than you paid. Call it arbitrage. Wall Street money sniffing around coin in 1986-1989 did create quite a frenzy....and there just weren't enough slabbed coins to soak up all the money. There were 5X to 20X as many raw coins waiting in the wings that would eventually show up in the market over the next 30 yrs. Coins like common date MS66 Mercs and Buffs were touted as "investment grade" and rare....laughable now. In a way, the manufactured investment grade - coin market shortage of "slabs only" drove those prices through the roof...with a very long following drop from 1990-1996.
I've followed one of my favorite seated coins through this tempest as it's a good example how a majority of higher end type and better date coins performed over 40 yrs.
1975 - $1800 raw at auction ("gem unc")
1977- $5000 traded between dealers (gem unc)
1980 - $30,000 raw at auction (gem unc 65)
1986 - $9,650 raw at auction (gem unc 65+)....slabbed as PCGS 66 just after purchase.
--(March 1990 - was briefly tested on the market - would have brought $45,000-$50,000...exceeding the 1980 high)
--(1998-2000 - briefly analyzed again - in the $25,000-30,000 range)
2004 - $74,500 at auction NGC MS67
2015 - $88,125 at auction NGC MS67 CAC. Crossed to PCGS 67 CAC after that auction.
So for the most part this coin reached a large % of its potential by 2004. Probably could have gone to $100K-$125K in 2008 though. The best periods to have owned this coin were 1975-1980 and 1986-1989 and 1996-2008. One of the myths of "long term" holds is clearly busted here. There are two 3 year periods where this coin went up 5X to 6X in value. And the 16X increase from 1975 to 1980 was amazing. So for nearly 50 yr history on this coin, it experienced an 80X appreciation in its 8 best years. The other 41 yrs not quite so impressive. The worst 8 years saw its value drop to 1/6th of previous values. It's more a matter of knowing your coins and where the market is in the cycle.
@RoadRunner Thanks for your Excellent and Very Informative Historical Perspective post.😁👍
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
@Keets @RickO @CladKing @Hemispherical @OldHoopster @kbbpll @Crypto @MrEureka @Selling3 @NeilDRobertson @Nap @BillJones @ElContador @ThisIsTheShow @Logger7 @roadrunner
Thanks to all of the above for your posts, comments and lively discussion about this 50 Years of Numismatic Collecting Experience thread! 😁👍
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"