Have we sacrificed the "romance" of coins ....
topstuf
Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
...to the GODS OF GRADING ...(GOG) ...?
I can remember the fun of getting coins of designs of the past and appreciation of that regardless of the "grade" bestowed by a slab.
Cleaned, hairlined, maybe AT, maybe anything. 
And they ...looked.... "neat" in the old Dansco.
NOW..... oh boy.. they gotta be GRADED...and maybe "approved" or they aren't ...good enough. 
Man, that was fun. 
What do YOU think?
Are we now so dependent on the "official" rating of a coin that we are losing the plain old "fun" of just ...looking... at the history of our coinage with the eyes of a simpler way of doing our hobby?
???
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Comments
At the moment numbers replaced thinkers.
The problem has existed long before slabbing...
Too many quick-buck artistes, not enough people who want to own coins because they are historic artifacts.
The overemphasis on 'Rare-in-this-condition' has just made the precariousness and illiquidity of the hobby worse.
That’s why I have enjoyed my Beaver collection only two of them are graded (HK-573) all the other tokens and so-called dollars are raw it’s fun tracking down ones I don’t have and researching them plus They where tea inexpensive to put together
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
Not yet, but if grades showed up on TrueViews then maybe.
Yes.
Whatever criticisms people might have regarding third party grading, I don’t see “illiquidity” as a valid one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I am taking my own path and agree with you. I am going through boxes & bags of Foreign coins. Neat stuff. Most are worth about price of a meal but real interesting when new to me.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
There was some romance lost for me when talking about the “5C 1913 PCGS PR66 CAC” recently. Calling a coin by it’s grade and sticker seemed a bit sterile to me.
I understand what you're saying. I remember the thrill of holding 100-200 year old coins as a kid, from all over the world, thanks to my grandfather, and not knowing or caring about "grade" or "value". Today if it's not entombed in plastic you don't know if it's even real.
I say the romance is still there much of the time.
Here’s a token my friend @DCW just posted in another thread. I think it’s drop deal gorgeous and didn’t need the grade to appreciate it. Here the grade doesn’t hurt but is not needed to appreciate the token at all.
A beautiful thing about Civil War Tokens is also that many of them are still sold raw.
And if you dare to question the numbers, you get belittled and called names.
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
Couldn't agree with you more Topstuf. I've had many collections of
low grade, med. & some high grade coins and they were all enjoyable
to me. After selling most of my collections I still have about 100 slabs
of Lincoln cents that are hi grade and interesting. So far, can't part
with them.
Still hanging around this forum for 20 years to see others !
R.I.P. Bear
Conversely, I feel more satisfaction and peace knowing my coins are correctly graded and problem free. Their value is also less disputable in the market place, which increases their liquidity.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I have graded coins. I like them. I appreciate them. I'll get more of them.
It's just a different "feeling."
I remember looking at different "types" and marveling that these were actual ..."spending money" 50, 100, 200 years ago and I had not seen one before.
There's a certain something about seeing something for the first time.
I guess it's human nature to complicate what starts simple and becomes ...something else.
Part of it is of course the "investment" angle that we all consider. With time comes "order."
snif.....
I sometimes think about just how much purchasing power a coin or bill/currency would have had when issued and in circulation compared to how little that same denomination might purchase today. For example, in 1928 you could find both a $20 coin and a $500 bill at your local bank or in circulation. Using what appears to be a very conservative inflation calculator (https://www.usinflationcalculator.com), that $20 coin (ignoring today's gold or collector value) would be the equivalent of spending $300 today. The $500 bill would be the equivalent to spending $7,500 today.
So having a $20 coin and a $500 bill in your pocket in 1928 would be the equivalent of having $7,800 in your pocket in 2019. WOW!! Other than gangbangers and Wall Street types, does anyone walk around with that amount of money in 2019? You might say credit cards did a way with the need to carry large amounts of cash.
Credit cards didn't exist in 1928, so it is possible some carried $500 in their billfold (probably the type you carry in your inside jacket pocket), and certainly a good number walked around with $20s.
Both scary and thought provoking, but this desire to imagine the historical perspective of our money is one of the benefits of coin collecting to me.
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
Your point Is well made, but on the other hand would you buy an expensive raw coin on ebay unless the photos were excellent and you were an expert? Even then there is Photoshop to consider and a lot of coins are bought and sold on eBay. TPGS services are more important to me to guarantee that a coin is genuine and will straight grade. I can ballpark grade and that's close enough for my needs. Numbers on coins leads to condition rarity and I do not worry about that.
If it makes you feel any better, I went to a small show today and bought all raw coins.
Including a well worn 32-D Washington. First one of those I've ever had.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
What Bill said. There is not the same aura around coins like in bygone days.
Pete
You can still have a lot of fun collecting raw Washingtons, Mercurys, Roosevelts, Jeffersons and Lincolns from 1940 to the present and plugging them into a Dansco.
U.S. Type Set
Not in my opinion, I think it just adds an additional level of complexity and consideration.
For me a coin, token or medal needs to have some good history or a good story surrounding it. Most of the things that are just made sell, don’t attract me, especially if they are expensive. The only exception for me is Proof sets. I have built a collection of those.
After I’ve decided I want to buy something, the grade does become an issue. Almost every collector would like to acquire “perfect” pieces, but that is usually not financially feasible, especially if the item was made to be used, has some rarity and is old. Therefore you settle for something less. “Attractive” is very important to me, more important than the technical grade.
Grading is there to help set value and help collectors avoid pitfalls. The trouble comes when the grade and who assigned it and approved of it becomes the overriding issue. Yes preservation is important, but it not all there is to a good collection. The drawn out arguments over preservation do take the fun out of the hobby eventually.
@topstuf ... I agree.... as would many who have collected coins for most of there lives. Sure, I have slabbed coins, but I well remember the fun of finding old coins, raw. Actually, that is the way I am trying to get a W quarter....All things evolve... and that evolution usually leaves both good and bad things behind.... Change is the only sure thing in life...Cheers, RickO
What’s stopping you from doing this today?
I still buy raw and graded problem coins. Some of my favorite coins are problem coins.
Of course the plastic removes one's self from fully appreciating a coin by touch (and to share that joy with others). That is regrettable, but with the value of many coins so important to sustain, it is sadly unavoidable.
I think @topstuf should no longer collect top stuff and, voila, problem solved!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Then he can change his username to "bottomstuf"!
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You can crack out coins if you like to.
@cardinal even examined the now $10 million 1794 Flowing Hair dollar in his bare hands.
Why is value important to sustain?
People buy Ferraris whose values drop like a rock, like over $100,000 in just a few years.
I think you can answer your question by asking yourself if you're willing to crack out your collection.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Yes, I love bare naked coins.
I tried "darkstuf" but it didn't take. I'm hoping to avoid "fakestuf" though.
Well, Ed Milas won't sell me any more quarters that look like this for $165.00
For those who haven't seen the pictures:
As most of you know, I also collect tokens, medals, 19th century campaign items and British coins, including the hammered pieces. I prefer to buy those items raw if I can. They are easier to photograph and store, and I do like the limited physical contact with the piece. It's neat to touch something that is hundreds or even a thousand years old.
a coin that I like in a hugger suits me just fine (or even in an album) fwiw
There are stamp collectors, especially outside the US, who only collect USED stamps. Why? Because they are actual postal artifacts that did what they were supposed to - help deliver mail.
Most of my collection is raw, and I enjoy it that way. Of course, my coins are not worth thousands of dollars, each, so I don't need slabs on most of them. I do have some slabbed coins, and have the dilemma of whether I want to crack some of them out and put them with the rest of my collection. I likely will, some day.
I think most collectors start out with the meager collection of used, raw coins like mine. But, as we collect more, we see "better" examples, and NEED to upgrade. And, as stated earlier, greed takes over for a lot of people, and they need to make sure they're going to get the best buck for the coins they have.
I'm in the beginning phases of re-examining my collection and collecting motives and determining what/how I really want to collect. I don't know that I have a "need" to finish a collection (have all dates/mint marks of any type, e.g. Morgan Dollars). Maybe I will, maybe I won't. And, I don't know that I have a great "need" to have the "best" that money can buy. (Well, that's more a forced decision, based on my financial status - don't have tens- or hundreds-of-thousands to spend on coins!)
I'm thinking my future purchases will be just whatever is beautiful in my eyes and makes me happy, regardless of type, or condition, or grade, or value. That might get very dangerous!!!
Rocking my "shiny-object-syndrome"!!!
I think that is a good philosophy for any collectible!
When I was a kid, you find stuff in change. Silver coins were still being minted, and they circulated. You could occasionally find a very worn Liberty Nickel, IHC, or Barber Dime.
I found many coins from the 1920s and 1930s in change.
But the more money you spend on a coin, you want more or a safety net. That's where the TPGs entered the picture.
As a kid, in bad lighting at an auction, I paid $75 for a coin that I resold for $50 thirty years later, because I missed a scratch on the coin. If it was in a first world holder, the grade assigned would have taken this into consideration. On the other hand, a coin for which I paid $35 I still have and is probably worth $1,000 or more.
Flash forward to today. Would you buy an Unc. 09 S VDB cent or 16 D Merc raw? I wouldn't do it back then, and I wouldn't do it now. You want a safety net of sorts when you buy an expensive coin.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I think the question of absolute rarity vs grade rarity is germane to this discussion.
Would you spend thousand of dollars for a coin in MS-68 when you can get a decent example in MS-65 for $50? If so, you value grade highly.
Usually I value absolute rarity more. If I'm going to spend thousands I'd rather have a truly rare coin with historical significance (like certain ancients). I don't know what the extant number of Lydian staters of Croesus' reign is, but I find one much more interesting than a modern coin in ultra-high grade.
Obscurum per obscurius
My sentiments exactly.
As for the romance of coins. Probably the only romantic part was on the side of the dealer who told you the grade via his price and then you found out the real grade when selling.
Sometimes I wish I could hold the coin in my hand and then I realize that if I wanted, I could just collect coins that don't have a lot of value, but since the coins I do want to collect have a lot of value, that I really appreciate this new reality of holdered coins.
Are we now so dependent on the "official" rating of a coin that we are losing the plain old "fun" of just ...looking... at the history of our coinage with the eyes of a simpler way of doing our hobby?
to a large degree, yes, and it is all about greed and ego which affects each of us and overwhelms some of us. despite what many members will say the "grade" is often more important than the coin. several years ago it was even worse than it is now. I started a thread and asked members to post a picture of a coin without showing the insert or mentioning the grade. the hope was for a thread of coin pictures only.
it wasn't very successful
>
This is what worries me about the coin market more than a declining or shifting collector base. Ego and especially greed are fragile things to build a collector market upon. When prices slide, the greedy head for the exits which accelerates the slide.
And ego has limits. When you can't "win" do you try harder or also head for the exits.
Over the years, people have come to expect coins to be a store of value, whether correctly or incorrectly. And certainly some coins have been gaining while many others have been falling, thus bifurcation.
A lot of people have expressed concern about falling prices. Do you consider them all “greedy”?
Laura discusses this in the latest Hot Topics and is working to convince people they don’t need to “win” by having the top sets, but the fact she writes about it indicates some may be heading for the door as accomplishment gets harder. I hope she is successful.
The only time I headed for the exit in a big way was with my half cent collection by die variety. The grades were not the issue; the fact that I slammed into a wall and could not obtain any more varieties was. I looked at who had the coins I needed; saw that they sometimes had multiple examples; and knew that they would not be selling any time soon. In hindsight I could have waited 20 to 30 years, which have been too long. I am glad I pulled the pug and moved on.
Anyone who considers coins "an investment" rather than a hobby could be given the "greedy" label in the context we're discussing here. All collecting hobbies to differing degrees suffer from it. But when it reaches excess...
You see it on this board all the time from a couple members who are mad that they can't buy a coin and sell it 6 months later without a big loss. They blame eBay or auction fees, dealer greed (ironically) etc. But the real fault lies in the way they are viewing the collectible they've bought.
I have a solution ... how about adding historically-relevant coins to your collection that people prefer to hold in their hands? But alas, don't worry ... slabbing has invaded ancients as well.
Julius Caesar (ca. 49-48 BCE) nicknamed the 'Elephant Denarius'
And it even works if you like errors!
L. Mussidius Longus (42 BCE) denarius - Obverse brockage
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I do think transaction costs and potential holding times to break even can be unclear in the coin hobby. Perhaps this is an area the ANA can have a class on.
Where I come from, a Dansco album is still "high end". I still collect almost all circulating coinage into Whitman folders for fun, multiple books, but now I do have a few Danscos for my ATB Quarters, Sacs and Prezbucks, hah!
I do get a lot of satisfaction from my graded Large Cents, but I also collect miscellaneous German coins & notgeld, some medals, and that bane of "real" collectors - Modern Bullion.
I still buy crap from the Mint and I know that I should begin liquidating some things, but hey - it's a collection.
My dad had a pretty good set of Barber dimes, quarters & halves from when he worked in my grandfather's hardware store as a kid. When I was a kid, those books of Barbers were amazing to me - and I can only imagine what my grandson will think of the modern crap that I've assembled into books, long after I'm gone.
I'm sure that he'll like the Plats and Gold Buffs even more, if I don't have to sell them someday.
I knew it would happen.
What's the break even point on golf clubs and greens fees? I guess you have to ask yourself if collecting is a hobby or something else.
This still views the coin as a commodity. If you buy a comic book today for $1000. Would you expect to be able to sell it to tomorrow for $950? $1050?
Why would there EVER be a break even point? I always tell people to expect the coin price to drop for the rest of their life, then buy it if they still want it. There should be NO expectation for price appreciation because that immediately starts viewing the coins as an "investment" rather than a "hobby". [Straight bullion is an exception, of course.]
It especially works if you like errors. Virtually 100% of ancients are struck off-center.