To be honest I’m at all the shows, this is just my first time creating and posting in the forums because I’ve never really run into anything like this plus I’m 19.
@bobsr said:
Well Barucci911
You can understand the skepticism you are encountering. Not saying its justified or even legitimate. On the Board is well over 1000 years of experience and 100's of members who have spent their entire lives looking at coins and collecting with passion. Many have written articles and books on the subject. Just about everyone knows everyone else and most of us have attended shows all over this country. None of us have ever found a coin that looks that good, and if Real, I'm sure will command a LOT of pretty pennies. Suddenly a new person appears on a board that's been around for a decade and his first post is of a heretofore Non Existant Coin that virtually all of us collect or have collected at some point in our lives. As we have at least one scammer a week appear here, Its just a little hard to swallow and it's congested with jealousy because we who have looked for the holy grail haven't found it yet. Also many are excited that even at this late time in Neusmismatic History something like this can come along. If that coin does in fact turn out to be Real, It will set the collecting world on its ear and hopefully spark a new fire throughout the entire industry. I for one am (a) Happy for you. (B) excited for you , and (C) anxiously awaiting the results. Don't let us down, please keep us posted as to turn of events and Welcome to the Board.
Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs
Nice looking dollar. The creator did an awesome job. Too bad it wasn't the US Mint. ifthevamzarockin has pointed out enough clues to show that this is not a US Mint product.
The shape of the 88s in the date are a great example. All US mint 1887 dollars will have the same exact 8 no matter the mintmark. If yours is different, there is a big reason why it is different. Different manufacturers.
The doubled reverse not matching any other known reverse is a big clue. Having a doubled mintmark the same doubling as the rest of the doubled reverse is another big clue. You generally get one or the other. Not both.
The obverse does not pass. The reverse does not pass. This coin is special but all in the wrong way.
I paid $250, the seller told me this was from his great uncles collection and his aunt gave it to him for helping out clearing out the house after the great uncle had passed, he said this was the best in his collection.
@kbbpll said:
I can't get past the ribs across her face. I don't collect Morgans but I've looked at a lot of images and have never seen anything like that on a real one. This is a 5 figure coin if real, right? How much did you pay? Do you know the seller? Was there a story about desperately needed money? These are things I would consider.
Funny, I don't see anything about a great uncle in the ebay listing.
I paid $250, the seller told me this was from his great uncles collection and his aunt gave it to him for helping out clearing out the house after the great uncle had passed, he said this was the best in his collection.
@kbbpll said:
I can't get past the ribs across her face. I don't collect Morgans but I've looked at a lot of images and have never seen anything like that on a real one. This is a 5 figure coin if real, right? How much did you pay? Do you know the seller? Was there a story about desperately needed money? These are things I would consider.
Funny, I don't see anything about a great uncle in the ebay listing.
“generally” get one or the other, the 88s were different in the lighting but after comparing to many others they are in fact the same. This was from a 65DMPL 87... so the dates are the same
@Batman23 said:
Nice looking dollar. The creator did an awesome job. Too bad it wasn't the US Mint. ifthevamzarockin has pointed out enough clues to show that this is not a US Mint product.
The shape of the 88s in the date are a great example. All US mint 1887 dollars will have the same exact 8 no matter the mintmark. If yours is different, there is a big reason why it is different. Different manufacturers.
The doubled reverse not matching any other known reverse is a big clue. Having a doubled mintmark the same doubling as the rest of the doubled reverse is another big clue. You generally get one or the other. Not both.
The obverse does not pass. The reverse does not pass. This coin is special but all in the wrong way.
@Batman23 said:
Nice looking dollar. The creator did an awesome job. Too bad it wasn't the US Mint. ifthevamzarockin has pointed out enough clues to show that this is not a US Mint product.
The shape of the 88s in the date are a great example. All US mint 1887 dollars will have the same exact 8 no matter the mintmark. If yours is different, there is a big reason why it is different. Different manufacturers.
The doubled reverse not matching any other known reverse is a big clue. Having a doubled mintmark the same doubling as the rest of the doubled reverse is another big clue. You generally get one or the other. Not both.
The obverse does not pass. The reverse does not pass. This coin is special but all in the wrong way.
So nice to see a young collector that has managed to learn soo much about coins in such a short while. You might want to share you vast education with some of the members here that have 35+ years in coins.
"What could this possibly mean?" - that the die was laser etched or maybe CNC'd. Just from observing other discussions of high-quality fakes. Best of luck to you.
@kbbpll said:
"What could this possibly mean?" - that the die was laser etched or maybe CNC'd. Just from observing other discussions of high-quality fakes. Best of luck to you.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
The mint mark would have been applied to the die after the design. If the reverse die is doubled the mint mark would not be doubled in the same rotation as the die.
I was really hoping this was a real one, that is seriously hammered! Unfortunately this statement is the nail in the coffin for it as far as I'm concerned. The MM is punched into the die after the design, it should not have the same doubling as the rest of the reverse, the fact that it does indicates that it was imparted at the same time as the rest of the details. This is a dang good counterfeit and would surely fool most collectors.
Never believe any stories on ebay; they are just that.
Age has nothing to do with it , I look at over 500 Morgan’s a day, I find proofs that are marked as business strikes. I’m at all the large shows around the country. Morgan silver dollars I’ve been studying for 5 years, plus it’s a lot easier for me to learn with the internet at my fingertips.
So nice to see a young collector that has managed to learn soo much about coins in such a short while. You might want to share you vast education with some of the members here that have 35+ years in coins.
So nice to see a young collector that has managed to learn soo much about coins in such a short while. You might want to share you vast education with some of the members here that have 35+ years in coins.
Lol what do you not understand, the the die used would not exist yet on VAM world if the coin is what I believe it is. The date matches, the mint mark is doubles and so is the reverse, doesn’t prove counterfeit.
I wonder if anyone has proposed to the government that the best way to defeat the Chinese threat is to buy $1 items from Aliexpress and let the Chinese government go bankrupt on the shipping subsidy!
@Barucci911 said:
Lol what do you not understand, the the die used would not exist yet on VAM world if the coin is what I believe it is. The date matches, the mint mark is doubles and so is the reverse, doesn’t prove counterfeit.
@Barucci911 said:
Lol what do you not understand, the the die used would not exist yet on VAM world if the coin is what I believe it is. The date matches, the mint mark is doubles and so is the reverse, doesn’t prove counterfeit.
@Barucci911 said:
Lol what do you not understand, the the die used would not exist yet on VAM world if the coin is what I believe it is. The date matches, the mint mark is doubles and so is the reverse, doesn’t prove counterfeit.
Are you aware they make a better grade counterfeit in China that is struck on a 90% silver planchet and are of much higher quality than the listing on aliexpress?
Obviously I am aware of that, the main argument that I am making is that the Morgan I have shown has the strongest strike out of any Morgan I’ve seen, show me an example of a fake with the same strike and I’ll take the post down, you won’t be able to.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
Are you aware they make a better grade counterfeit in China that is struck on a 90% silver planchet and are of much higher quality than the listing on aliexpress?
Lol just another fallacy there, because you don’t have any evidence showing the coin is fake, and can’t produce another fake with the same details or even close go as good details and strike.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
Dang! Reminds me of the good old days when I was 19 and thought I knew everything.
@Barucci911 said:
Looks like you were right, scumbag sold me a fake. It’s on aliexpress David showed us. What a little bi***... that seller is. Live and learn.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
This has been fun & educational for some, but it is starting to remind me of talking to my Ex-Wife.
Show us the graded coin when you get it back.
that is a beautiful coin. I wonder what it would cost to put together a complete set of quality Chinese fakes.
"Oh I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now"
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@Barucci911 said:
....the mint mark is doubles and so is the reverse, doesn’t prove counterfeit.
It very nearly proves it to be counterfeit. The chances of a repunched mint mark spread and direction to exactly match hub doubling is nearly zero since they are not added to the(authentic) die at the same time.
This is a very good counterfeit, they just missed a small but critical detail. I'm interested to hear what @insider2 thinks here, if he cares to chime in.
You could also count the reeds on the edge, I would bet a China import would not have the correct number, I'm not sure what that number is supposed to be though, 188?
Oh, I see the source has been confirmed as I was typing my last response.
I want to thank @Barucci911 and participants for this educational thread! Don't delete any of the pictures, they could help in the future, and they are very good!
Sorry if it seems we were being hard on you but you were not listening. Before you buy more coins you may want to do a little more reading here and get some of the great advise this site & it's members have to offer.
I am coming to the party late, sorry. I do not like the engraving on the hair, eyes, etc. The "lesser" details are missing and the simple bits (eg hair strands) are more deeply incised into the die. I think this gives the mistaken impression that it is well struck, not to mention the more modern means counterfeiters have of producing their version of the original coins.
This is the part of just not looking right....
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Sorry if it seems we were being hard on you but you were not listening. Before you buy more coins you may want to do a little more reading here and get some of the great advise this site & it's members have to offer.
@ifthevamzarockin deserves the medal for today - maybe for the week - for educating not only the OP but many others as well. The analysis was rock solid.
It was fantastic that someone found the source in China, since that was all that could convince the OP, but the determination was already made and proven by ifthevamzarockin independent of that.
OP gets his money back, AND saves a few hundred in grading fees. That is pretty inexpensive tuition.
Comments
To be honest I’m at all the shows, this is just my first time creating and posting in the forums because I’ve never really run into anything like this plus I’m 19.
"No returns" = red flag.
All of his posts are like that, you can return on eBay regardless.
Nice looking dollar. The creator did an awesome job. Too bad it wasn't the US Mint. ifthevamzarockin has pointed out enough clues to show that this is not a US Mint product.
The shape of the 88s in the date are a great example. All US mint 1887 dollars will have the same exact 8 no matter the mintmark. If yours is different, there is a big reason why it is different. Different manufacturers.
The doubled reverse not matching any other known reverse is a big clue. Having a doubled mintmark the same doubling as the rest of the doubled reverse is another big clue. You generally get one or the other. Not both.
The obverse does not pass. The reverse does not pass. This coin is special but all in the wrong way.
You’re right, it wasn’t on the listing but in personal messages with the seller
“generally” get one or the other, the 88s were different in the lighting but after comparing to many others they are in fact the same. This was from a 65DMPL 87... so the dates are the same
" plus I’m 19 "
So nice to see a young collector that has managed to learn soo much about coins in such a short while. You might want to share you vast education with some of the members here that have 35+ years in coins.
You're asking yourself? Or you forgot to change to your alt?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11748368/#Comment_11748368
"What could this possibly mean?" - that the die was laser etched or maybe CNC'd. Just from observing other discussions of high-quality fakes. Best of luck to you.
Meant to ask what the ribs possibly mean.
A quick search found a similar toned 1887-S example on aliexpress.
I was really hoping this was a real one, that is seriously hammered! Unfortunately this statement is the nail in the coffin for it as far as I'm concerned. The MM is punched into the die after the design, it should not have the same doubling as the rest of the reverse, the fact that it does indicates that it was imparted at the same time as the rest of the details. This is a dang good counterfeit and would surely fool most collectors.
Never believe any stories on ebay; they are just that.
Collector, occasional seller
Age has nothing to do with it , I look at over 500 Morgan’s a day, I find proofs that are marked as business strikes. I’m at all the large shows around the country. Morgan silver dollars I’ve been studying for 5 years, plus it’s a lot easier for me to learn with the internet at my fingertips.
I would be asking for a refund.
If the seller is ALL that he says then he should be looked into by the organizations he claims membership.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
" I look at over 500 Morgan’s a day "
Then you should have no problem seeing the details that have been pointed out to you.
https://aliexpress.com/item/ZouJunChao-Untied-States-Coins-1887-s-90-Silver-Morgan-U-S-One-Dollar-Copy-Coin-Can/1888807312.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.42.3676175di6l454&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10065_10130_10068_10890_10547_319_10546_317_10548_10545_10696_10084_453_454_10083_10618_10307_537_536_10902_10059_10884_10887_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_56,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=b83c0c1f-2db3-4ae9-95a5-78d3819ac969-6&algo_pvid=b83c0c1f-2db3-4ae9-95a5-78d3819ac969&transAbTest=ae803_3
The video is interesting
Lol what do you not understand, the the die used would not exist yet on VAM world if the coin is what I believe it is. The date matches, the mint mark is doubles and so is the reverse, doesn’t prove counterfeit.
***> @ifthevamzarockin said:
Looks messed with and AT to my eyes. Rims are not proper for a proof specimen.
bob
Wrong, this one is clearly a fake from Ali express, horrific details and just a knock off.
https://aliexpress.com/item/1887-S-Morgan-Dollar-COIN-COPY-FREE-SHIPPING/32791587119.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.23.3676175di6l454&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10065_10130_10068_10890_10547_319_10546_317_10548_10545_10696_10084_453_454_10083_10618_10307_537_536_10902_10059_10884_10887_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_56,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=b83c0c1f-2db3-4ae9-95a5-78d3819ac969-3&algo_pvid=b83c0c1f-2db3-4ae9-95a5-78d3819ac969&transAbTest=ae803_3
$1.14 and FREE SHIPPING from China!
I wonder if anyone has proposed to the government that the best way to defeat the Chinese threat is to buy $1 items from Aliexpress and let the Chinese government go bankrupt on the shipping subsidy!
Proofs & BMP's are listed on Vamworld...... Have you taken the time to look the site over or have you been too busy responding here?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1887-USA-Morgan-dollar-antique-90-silver-dollar-old-replica-coins-copy-full-version-liberty-collectible/32865944854.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.130.4a274762wgmT6X&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10065_10130_10068_10890_10547_319_10546_317_10548_10545_10696_10084_453_454_10083_10618_10307_537_536_10902_10059_10884_10887_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_6,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=9a1a66c3-2c25-4898-960f-7f0d78bfa805-19&algo_pvid=9a1a66c3-2c25-4898-960f-7f0d78bfa805
I agree that is an interesting video, except those aren’t real silver and sound nothing like my Morgan.
Hahahaha I noticed that as well....guys a creep but still he is a member of all what I stated and sells coins.
It had nothing to do with you. No offense. I just thought it was interesting.
Yea the 1878-S SP65 VAM is on there, but only after it was found and certified Lol
Are you aware they make a better grade counterfeit in China that is struck on a 90% silver planchet and are of much higher quality than the listing on aliexpress?
Obviously I am aware of that, the main argument that I am making is that the Morgan I have shown has the strongest strike out of any Morgan I’ve seen, show me an example of a fake with the same strike and I’ll take the post down, you won’t be able to.
Dang! Reminds me of the good old days when I was 19 and thought I knew everything.
Lol just another fallacy there, because you don’t have any evidence showing the coin is fake, and can’t produce another fake with the same details or even close go as good details and strike.
Let me try this one more time.. The exact coin is available on aliexpress for $59 struck in 90% silver..> @dave700x said:
Oh, and there are two more colors available if you want a set...
https://aliexpress.com/item/1887-s-US-Morgan-Dollar-In-Grade-Case-hold-MS64/32609870602.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.159.3676175di6l454&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10065_10130_10068_10890_10547_319_10546_317_10548_10545_10696_10084_453_454_10083_10618_10307_537_536_10902_10059_10884_10887_321_322_10103,searchweb201603_56,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=b83c0c1f-2db3-4ae9-95a5-78d3819ac969-24&algo_pvid=b83c0c1f-2db3-4ae9-95a5-78d3819ac969&transAbTest=ae803_3
Here's a scary looking fake. Coin is a better replica than the holder!
This has been fun & educational for some, but it is starting to remind me of talking to my Ex-Wife.
Show us the graded coin when you get it back.
Looks like you were right, scumbag sold me a fake. It’s on aliexpress David showed us. What a little bi***... that seller is. Live and learn.
send it in, let's see what PCGS has to say. You will either have wasted your money or stand to make a bunch.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
that is a beautiful coin. I wonder what it would cost to put together a complete set of quality Chinese fakes.
It was worth the time and effort if you learned something.
To quote Bob Dylan:
"Oh I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now"
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Wow what a piece of crap.... so much for his 700 positive feedback. Fakes are getting crazy.
It's a tough lesson and it sucks. Truly.
This guy will be giving me a full refund plus “emotional distress $$$” 😂😂
It very nearly proves it to be counterfeit. The chances of a repunched mint mark spread and direction to exactly match hub doubling is nearly zero since they are not added to the(authentic) die at the same time.
This is a very good counterfeit, they just missed a small but critical detail. I'm interested to hear what @insider2 thinks here, if he cares to chime in.
You could also count the reeds on the edge, I would bet a China import would not have the correct number, I'm not sure what that number is supposed to be though, 188?
Collector, occasional seller
Do we get a piece of that?
Oh, I see the source has been confirmed as I was typing my last response.
I want to thank @Barucci911 and participants for this educational thread! Don't delete any of the pictures, they could help in the future, and they are very good!
Collector, occasional seller
@Barucci911
Sorry if it seems we were being hard on you but you were not listening. Before you buy more coins you may want to do a little more reading here and get some of the great advise this site & it's members have to offer.
Uncles who are truly great don't seek attention.
I am coming to the party late, sorry. I do not like the engraving on the hair, eyes, etc. The "lesser" details are missing and the simple bits (eg hair strands) are more deeply incised into the die. I think this gives the mistaken impression that it is well struck, not to mention the more modern means counterfeiters have of producing their version of the original coins.
This is the part of just not looking right....
Well, just Love coins, period.
@ifthevamzarockin deserves the medal for today - maybe for the week - for educating not only the OP but many others as well. The analysis was rock solid.
It was fantastic that someone found the source in China, since that was all that could convince the OP, but the determination was already made and proven by ifthevamzarockin independent of that.
OP gets his money back, AND saves a few hundred in grading fees. That is pretty inexpensive tuition.
Before it goes poof.
—————
“1887 USA Morgan dollar antique 90% silver dollar old replica coins copy full version liberty collectible coins gift art craft”