1933-S WLH special strike or counterfeit. One more kick to a dead horse?
batumi
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I am referring to an old post that intrigues me. There were several photos posted of this coin which was sold for about 10,000USD in a sale in Eastern Europe by a reputable auction firm. I believe the concensis here was about 50/50 counterfeit/special strike. The coin in question had a fantastic strike, though Liberty's arm was flat which make me lean to voting it counterfeit. Has anyone here heard if the coin has been authenticated by ant TPS? 10 K is more than a 'hop' bet-pretty much 67 Money for a 33-S-if is questionable. The only question I have iwith it being an all out counterfeit, is how a very talented engraver-if the coin is indeed counterfeit-would mess up the arm like that imho. Thanks in advance for any skinny on this.
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I bumped the original thread a couple of months ago looking for new information and heard nothing. It is quite possible that the owner simply does not wish to send it to a reputable TPG, but the longer that the owner fails to do so, the more suspicious I become of the entire story.
A counterfeit dead horse made from excess gerbil parts.
I have my doubts as to its authenticity.
The 33S comes very well struck up and the flat arm may have been just a Photographic illusion But...
I certainly never would’ve paid that much for it.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
some dead horses need to be kicked.
I suppose that is one way to look at it. Interesting, though.
Most likely we'll never know.
Maybe they couldn't get the gerbil parts to flow through her arm?
Pete
I recall that one. One of those to good to be true things.
These close ups convinced me that it was counterfeit. Others felt strongly it was authentic. Known authentic on the right.
How do we know it was not graded?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Well, we coulda checked the Coin Facts images...
Lol. Pop reports?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Here's the image I assembled from the auction listing for the original thread:
I would think that such a coin would be submitted to a TPG...Certainly I would have...Cheers, RickO
As I said before, I have seen astonishing raw coins that have still not been slabbed. Collectors do not need TP Grading. That said, I think this coin needs authentication.
This one will never be resolved until the coin can be examined in hand. Could be counterfeit. Could be genuine. Could be tooled. Could be photos are messed with. Could be...
What would you do if you were the $10k owner of this coin?
Would you want it to be slabbed and know, or would you rather enjoy it and not know?
I agree with CaptainHenway with authentication, not necessarily grading which perhaps was already done by an expert and the owner may not wish to display their 10K paperweight. I would want to for sure one way or the other. I live abroad, and with internet archives from auctions, chuckle when I wish to take a closer look on a U.S. coin getting the 'One minute please' and take a peek at them on HA.com! The old adage of 'there are no bargains in numismatics' rings true everywhere and in lots of places there are minefields og counterfeits-some laughably pitiiful copies-like a 1875 Washington quarter 'guaranteed' genuine I encountered in North Africa to extremely deceptive gold in the Middle East.
maybe the buyer submitted it to PCGS, it was deemed a counterfeit, returned to the Auctioneer, some type of non-disclosure agreement reached, a refund issued and the coin destroyed. you can't save your ass and face at the same time.
looks like a matte proof
looks like a real coin, not a false piece or counterfeit.
(now awaiting caustic comments from RB!!)
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Looks like a 58 with background tarnish that makes the contours pop more than normal combined with a solid strike in the first place.
An interesting hypothesis!
Not caustic - just factual: details of the counterfeit do not match those of an authentic 1933-S coin or of the design models.
Ignorance is not bliss. I would definitely want to know.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Walkerfan| I too would want to know if only for the reason, if proved a genuine specimum strike, it likely would transform into a six figure plus coin.
I’ve also been wondering if the coin is with experts considering this outcome.
There are two basic questions here....
1) is it a false piece (counterfeit) or not.
If a counterfeit, end of discussion. (This could be determined by pcgs or ngc or anacs.)
2) If not a counterfeit, and a U S mint production struck in 1933, is this some kind of a special striking? From the photos there is the resemblance to a matte proof on the reverse, But no way to tell what the mint intention was with this piece when it was struck. At best you could call it matte proof-like, which is not a stretch. Calling it a matte proof or specimen strike is a stretch and none of the grading services previously mentioned would call it anything other than a business strike.
1933 was a depression year when some mint employees had some extra time on their hands and maybe this was just the result of someone or some person with nothing better to do. And finally maybe the actual grade would be AU58 if you look at the feathers on the eagle. Looks like “cabinet friction” to me. Hard to believe that it commanded ten grand!!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Do you have the description of this coin that the actual auction had?
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
And some get their kicks by beating a dead horse.
But rest assured a coin like this would never be called a (branch mint) proof or specimen strike by either pcgs or ngc.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Well, since we don't know the final verdict, it's not fully dead yet
disagree
As I recall, the coin was not hyped as anything special in the auction catalog. So, 2 people who presumably viewed it in hand ran it up to $8k, as I recall.
Here it is.
Good thing I saved the image.
Pete
As did I.
The owner of this coin should contact me. I can probably help.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If this is a genuine coin, with the obvious rub on the breast feathers (cabinet friction) don’t you think this would be graded au58?
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Schrodinger's Half
Both Special Strike and Counterfeit at the same time, but is neither at the same moment.
Assume its counterfeit until proven otherwise.
It is beating a dead horse. We'll never know for sure. The owner won't come forward. Nothing else can be said. I will again repeat myself by saying I would really like to know what's up with this coin.
Oh well.
Pete
Nothing has been proven about this coin, one way or the other.
Yet.
The seam between the shoulder and bust of the gown are very sloppy on the one in question. It is quite sharp and defined in the authenticated one.
A branch mint matte proof 33-S? Thats a bit of a stretch ain't it?
I'm not "interested" in it being genuine. I simply do not see any clear evidence based on PHOTOS to allow me to conclude definitively anything, especially relative to TWO bidders who may well have seen the coin in hand.
In all instances of something this unusual - and the "coin" has no comparable WL half of any date, mint or production type - the burden of proof is with the suspect specimen. All comments are immaterial pending professional, independent authentication.
Roger - Just because you are unaware of anything similar does not mean that it doesn't exist. And in this case, it does exist, I've seen it, I know the provenance and I think it's real.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
“Similar.” Same date or different date?
Same mint. Same era. Different denomination. More obvious.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Here's the description:
Good thing I saved the auction screenshot too
I don't think the auction house had any idea it would go that high.
Many thanks to all the posters on this subject. Many thanks to Zoins for the auction info. While I still lean to the counterfeit, all I can say fore sure is IDK. The auction house description is very generic and not trying to peddle a possible strike or the like. For sure at least two bidders likely saw the coin in hand, saw something they liked, and ran the bid to close to MS67 Money There are lots of auction archive on the 33-S in all grades, and having lived abroad in numerous locations arount the world, I have found that people that are dealing coins are fully aware and use these auction archives. I am hoping that a third party such as our hosts or anothe gets to evaluate this piece, and render a verdict.
some dead horses need to be kicked
And some get their kicks by beating a dead horse
and still other choose to embark on a pattern that seems like stalking, and that's just sort of weird.
--- If this is a genuine coin, with the obvious rub on the breast feathers(cabinet friction).
while I don't think the coin is genuine I also don't think that's rub. more likely it is just untoned areas where the coin was resting over a long time "reverse down" against some surface. that isn't unusual with medals, especially bronze medals.