1933-S WLH special strike or counterfeit. One more kick to a dead horse?

I am referring to an old post that intrigues me. There were several photos posted of this coin which was sold for about 10,000USD in a sale in Eastern Europe by a reputable auction firm. I believe the concensis here was about 50/50 counterfeit/special strike. The coin in question had a fantastic strike, though Liberty's arm was flat which make me lean to voting it counterfeit. Has anyone here heard if the coin has been authenticated by ant TPS? 10 K is more than a 'hop' bet-pretty much 67 Money for a 33-S-if is questionable. The only question I have iwith it being an all out counterfeit, is how a very talented engraver-if the coin is indeed counterfeit-would mess up the arm like that imho. Thanks in advance for any skinny on this.

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Comments

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 26,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I bumped the original thread a couple of months ago looking for new information and heard nothing. It is quite possible that the owner simply does not wish to send it to a reputable TPG, but the longer that the owner fails to do so, the more suspicious I become of the entire story.

    As they say in the wallpaper trade, "How's it hanging?"
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 7,252 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A counterfeit dead horse made from excess gerbil parts.

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 4,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have my doubts as to its authenticity.

    The 33S comes very well struck up and the flat arm may have been just a Photographic illusion But...

    I certainly never would’ve paid that much for it.

    Walking Liberty Sets

    "Looking back, of course, it was irresponsible, mad, forlorn and idiotic but, if you don't take chances, then you'll never have a winning hand and I have no regrets."--Bernard Cornwell.
  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    A counterfeit dead horse made from excess gerbil parts.

    I suppose that is one way to look at it. Interesting, though.

    Most likely we'll never know.

    Maybe they couldn't get the gerbil parts to flow through her arm?

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I recall that one. One of those to good to be true things.

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 5,356 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These close ups convinced me that it was counterfeit. Others felt strongly it was authentic. Known authentic on the right.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How do we know it was not graded?

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,750 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lol. Pop reports?

    @tradedollarnut said:

    @coinkat said:
    How do we know it was not graded?

    Well, we coulda checked the Coin Facts images...

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 17,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 7:22PM

    Here's the image I assembled from the auction listing for the original thread:

  • rickoricko Posts: 64,505 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would think that such a coin would be submitted to a TPG...Certainly I would have...Cheers, RickO

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 26,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As I said before, I have seen astonishing raw coins that have still not been slabbed. Collectors do not need TP Grading. That said, I think this coin needs authentication.

    As they say in the wallpaper trade, "How's it hanging?"
  • MarkInDavisMarkInDavis Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2019 9:44PM

    This one will never be resolved until the coin can be examined in hand. Could be counterfeit. Could be genuine. Could be tooled. Could be photos are messed with. Could be...

    image Respectfully, Mark
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 17,761 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What would you do if you were the $10k owner of this coin?

    Would you want it to be slabbed and know, or would you rather enjoy it and not know?

  • batumibatumi Posts: 426 ✭✭✭

    I agree with CaptainHenway with authentication, not necessarily grading which perhaps was already done by an expert and the owner may not wish to display their 10K paperweight. I would want to for sure one way or the other. I live abroad, and with internet archives from auctions, chuckle when I wish to take a closer look on a U.S. coin getting the 'One minute please' and take a peek at them on HA.com! The old adage of 'there are no bargains in numismatics' rings true everywhere and in lots of places there are minefields og counterfeits-some laughably pitiiful copies-like a 1875 Washington quarter 'guaranteed' genuine I encountered in North Africa to extremely deceptive gold in the Middle East.

  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2019 8:18AM

    @RogerB said:
    A counterfeit dead horse made from excess gerbil parts.

    @Zoins said:
    Here's the image I assembled from the auction listing for the original thread:

    looks like a matte proof
    looks like a real coin, not a false piece or counterfeit.
    (now awaiting caustic comments from RB!!)

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • thevolcanogodthevolcanogod Posts: 270 ✭✭✭

    Looks like a 58 with background tarnish that makes the contours pop more than normal combined with a solid strike in the first place.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 26,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    maybe the buyer submitted it to PCGS, it was deemed a counterfeit, returned to the Auctioneer, some type of non-disclosure agreement reached, a refund issued and the coin destroyed. you can't save your ass and face at the same time.

    An interesting hypothesis!

    As they say in the wallpaper trade, "How's it hanging?"
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 7,252 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not caustic - just factual: details of the counterfeit do not match those of an authentic 1933-S coin or of the design models.

  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 4,884 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    What would you do if you were the $10k owner of this coin?

    Would you want it to be slabbed and know, or would you rather enjoy it and not know?

    Ignorance is not bliss. I would definitely want to know.

    Walking Liberty Sets

    "Looking back, of course, it was irresponsible, mad, forlorn and idiotic but, if you don't take chances, then you'll never have a winning hand and I have no regrets."--Bernard Cornwell.
  • batumibatumi Posts: 426 ✭✭✭

    @Walkerfan said:

    @Zoins said:
    What would you do if you were the $10k owner of this coin?

    Would you want it to be slabbed and know, or would you rather enjoy it and not know?

    Ignorance is not bliss. I would definitely want to know.

    Walkerfan| I too would want to know if only for the reason, if proved a genuine specimum strike, it likely would transform into a six figure plus coin.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 17,761 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @batumi said:

    @Walkerfan said:

    @Zoins said:
    What would you do if you were the $10k owner of this coin?

    Would you want it to be slabbed and know, or would you rather enjoy it and not know?

    Ignorance is not bliss. I would definitely want to know.

    Walkerfan| I too would want to know if only for the reason, if proved a genuine specimum strike, it likely would transform into a six figure plus coin.

    I’ve also been wondering if the coin is with experts considering this outcome.

  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭✭

    There are two basic questions here....
    1) is it a false piece (counterfeit) or not.
    If a counterfeit, end of discussion. (This could be determined by pcgs or ngc or anacs.)
    2) If not a counterfeit, and a U S mint production struck in 1933, is this some kind of a special striking? From the photos there is the resemblance to a matte proof on the reverse, But no way to tell what the mint intention was with this piece when it was struck. At best you could call it matte proof-like, which is not a stretch. Calling it a matte proof or specimen strike is a stretch and none of the grading services previously mentioned would call it anything other than a business strike.
    1933 was a depression year when some mint employees had some extra time on their hands and maybe this was just the result of someone or some person with nothing better to do. And finally maybe the actual grade would be AU58 if you look at the feathers on the eagle. Looks like “cabinet friction” to me. Hard to believe that it commanded ten grand!!

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭✭

    @batumi said:
    I am referring to an old post that intrigues me. There were several photos posted of this coin which was sold for about 10,000USD in a sale in Eastern Europe by a reputable auction firm. I believe the concensis here was about 50/50 counterfeit/special strike. The coin in question had a fantastic strike, though Liberty's arm was flat which make me lean to voting it counterfeit. Has anyone here heard if the coin has been authenticated by ant TPS? 10 K is more than a 'hop' bet-pretty much 67 Money for a 33-S-if is questionable. The only question I have iwith it being an all out counterfeit, is how a very talented engraver-if the coin is indeed counterfeit-would mess up the arm like that imho. Thanks in advance for any skinny on this.

    Do you have the description of this coin that the actual auction had?

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    some dead horses need to be kicked.

    And some get their kicks by beating a dead horse.

    I am not here to prove the truth, only to declare it.

  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭✭

    @batumi said:

    @Walkerfan said:

    @Zoins said:
    What would you do if you were the $10k owner of this coin?

    Would you want it to be slabbed and know, or would you rather enjoy it and not know?

    Ignorance is not bliss. I would definitely want to know.

    Walkerfan| I too would want to know if only for the reason, if proved a genuine specimum strike, it likely would transform into a six figure plus coin.

    But rest assured a coin like this would never be called a (branch mint) proof or specimen strike by either pcgs or ngc.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 17,761 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @abcde12345 said:

    @keets said:
    some dead horses need to be kicked.

    And some get their kicks by beating a dead horse.

    Well, since we don't know the final verdict, it's not fully dead yet ;)

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Not caustic - just factual: details of the counterfeit do not match those of an authentic 1933-S coin or of the design models.

    disagree

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BUFFNIXX said:

    @batumi said:
    I am referring to an old post that intrigues me. There were several photos posted of this coin which was sold for about 10,000USD in a sale in Eastern Europe by a reputable auction firm. I believe the concensis here was about 50/50 counterfeit/special strike. The coin in question had a fantastic strike, though Liberty's arm was flat which make me lean to voting it counterfeit. Has anyone here heard if the coin has been authenticated by ant TPS? 10 K is more than a 'hop' bet-pretty much 67 Money for a 33-S-if is questionable. The only question I have iwith it being an all out counterfeit, is how a very talented engraver-if the coin is indeed counterfeit-would mess up the arm like that imho. Thanks in advance for any skinny on this.

    Do you have the description of this coin that the actual auction had?

    As I recall, the coin was not hyped as anything special in the auction catalog. So, 2 people who presumably viewed it in hand ran it up to $8k, as I recall.

  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here it is.

    Good thing I saved the image.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As did I.

  • RealoneRealone Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @RogerB said:
    Not caustic - just factual: details of the counterfeit do not match those of an authentic 1933-S coin or of the design models.

    disagree

    Why do you seem so interested in it being genuine?

    'Never give in, never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy'.
    FYI: I only collect naturally toned coins with original surfaces and nothing else, trust me nothing else!
    OK with one exception!
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,367 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The owner of this coin should contact me. I can probably help.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭✭

    If this is a genuine coin, with the obvious rub on the breast feathers (cabinet friction) don’t you think this would be graded au58?

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Never take a front row seat at a Bris.
    Proud recipient and founding member of the "YOU SUCK" Club since 8/31/04 - USAF Retired: 1974 - 1994

  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,552 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Assume its counterfeit until proven otherwise.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is beating a dead horse. We'll never know for sure. The owner won't come forward. Nothing else can be said. I will again repeat myself by saying I would really like to know what's up with this coin.

    Oh well.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 26,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nothing has been proven about this coin, one way or the other.
    Yet.

    As they say in the wallpaper trade, "How's it hanging?"
  • clarkbar04clarkbar04 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    These close ups convinced me that it was counterfeit. Others felt strongly it was authentic. Known authentic on the right.

    The seam between the shoulder and bust of the gown are very sloppy on the one in question. It is quite sharp and defined in the authenticated one.

    A branch mint matte proof 33-S? Thats a bit of a stretch ain't it?

    MS66 taste on an MS63 budget.
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Realone said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @RogerB said:
    Not caustic - just factual: details of the counterfeit do not match those of an authentic 1933-S coin or of the design models.

    disagree

    Why do you seem so interested in it being genuine?

    I'm not "interested" in it being genuine. I simply do not see any clear evidence based on PHOTOS to allow me to conclude definitively anything, especially relative to TWO bidders who may well have seen the coin in hand.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 7,252 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In all instances of something this unusual - and the "coin" has no comparable WL half of any date, mint or production type - the burden of proof is with the suspect specimen. All comments are immaterial pending professional, independent authentication.

    :)

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,367 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019 8:46PM

    @RogerB said:
    In all instances of something this unusual - and the "coin" has no comparable WL half of any date, mint or production type - the burden of proof is with the suspect specimen. All comments are immaterial pending professional, independent authentication.

    :)

    Roger - Just because you are unaware of anything similar does not mean that it doesn't exist. And in this case, it does exist, I've seen it, I know the provenance and I think it's real.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 26,270 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @RogerB said:
    In all instances of something this unusual - and the "coin" has no comparable WL half of any date, mint or production type - the burden of proof is with the suspect specimen. All comments are immaterial pending professional, independent authentication.

    :)

    Roger - Just because you are unaware of anything similar does not mean that it doesn't exist. And in this case, it does exist, I've seen it, I know the provenance and I think it's real.

    “Similar.” Same date or different date?

    As they say in the wallpaper trade, "How's it hanging?"
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,367 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @RogerB said:
    In all instances of something this unusual - and the "coin" has no comparable WL half of any date, mint or production type - the burden of proof is with the suspect specimen. All comments are immaterial pending professional, independent authentication.

    :)

    Roger - Just because you are unaware of anything similar does not mean that it doesn't exist. And in this case, it does exist, I've seen it, I know the provenance and I think it's real.

    “Similar.” Same date or different date?

    Same mint. Same era. Different denomination. More obvious.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 17,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019 10:34PM

    @BUFFNIXX said:

    @batumi said:
    I am referring to an old post that intrigues me. There were several photos posted of this coin which was sold for about 10,000USD in a sale in Eastern Europe by a reputable auction firm. I believe the concensis here was about 50/50 counterfeit/special strike. The coin in question had a fantastic strike, though Liberty's arm was flat which make me lean to voting it counterfeit. Has anyone here heard if the coin has been authenticated by ant TPS? 10 K is more than a 'hop' bet-pretty much 67 Money for a 33-S-if is questionable. The only question I have iwith it being an all out counterfeit, is how a very talented engraver-if the coin is indeed counterfeit-would mess up the arm like that imho. Thanks in advance for any skinny on this.

    Do you have the description of this coin that the actual auction had?

    Here's the description:

    KM# 142, Silver, UNC with nice dark toning. Key date - 1,800,000 Mintage only.

    Good thing I saved the auction screenshot too :)

    I don't think the auction house had any idea it would go that high.

  • batumibatumi Posts: 426 ✭✭✭

    Many thanks to all the posters on this subject. Many thanks to Zoins for the auction info. While I still lean to the counterfeit, all I can say fore sure is IDK. The auction house description is very generic and not trying to peddle a possible strike or the like. For sure at least two bidders likely saw the coin in hand, saw something they liked, and ran the bid to close to MS67 Money There are lots of auction archive on the 33-S in all grades, and having lived abroad in numerous locations arount the world, I have found that people that are dealing coins are fully aware and use these auction archives. I am hoping that a third party such as our hosts or anothe gets to evaluate this piece, and render a verdict.

  • keetskeets Posts: 20,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019 4:53AM

    some dead horses need to be kicked
    And some get their kicks by beating a dead horse

    and still other choose to embark on a pattern that seems like stalking, and that's just sort of weird.

    --- If this is a genuine coin, with the obvious rub on the breast feathers(cabinet friction).

    while I don't think the coin is genuine I also don't think that's rub. more likely it is just untoned areas where the coin was resting over a long time "reverse down" against some surface. that isn't unusual with medals, especially bronze medals.


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