A "CAC" sticker indicates they would buy the coin - it is not a "grade" opinion. If CAC folks do not happen to have a market for the coins submitted, they might not get little cute stickers.
Don't play "Monopoly" if you don't know the rules.
@RogerB said:
A difference of opinion. But what really matters is the opinion of a buyer sometime in the future and one can hope the buyer is smart enough to make his/her own decision.
PS; What is the NGC star supposed to translate as in PCGS language?
To answer your question : it translates to "Ooooh"
@RogerB said:
A "CAC" sticker indicates they they would buy the coin - it is not a "grade" opinion. If CAC folks do not happen to have a market for the coins submitted, they might not get little cute stickers.
Don't play "Monopoly" if you don't know the rules.
Utter foolishness. Why do you insist on making things up like this?
@RogerB said:
A "CAC" sticker indicates they would buy the coin - it is not a "grade" opinion. If CAC folks do not happen to have a market for the coins submitted, they might not get little cute stickers.
Don't play "Monopoly" if you don't know the rules.
Curious Roger, do you play this kind of "Monopoly" game? Have you sent coins to CAC?
Bologna. The statements reinforce what I posted, not refute them. Read the words with an open and critical mind.
"We verify previously graded coins" - I.e., they don't "grade" them.
"Standard for today's selective buyer" - might as well say "New. Improved. Best Value. Cleans Better than Before."
"Making markets...." - again, meaningless babble. That has meaning in securities trading not coins.
Bottom line: "A 'CAC' sticker indicates they they would buy the coin - it is not a 'grade' opinion. If CAC folks do not happen to have a market for the coins submitted, they might not get little cute stickers."
@RogerB said:
Bologna. The statements reinforce what I posted, not refute them. Read the words with an open and critical mind.
"We verify previously graded coins" - I.e., they don't "grade" them.
"Standard for today's selective buyer" - might as well say "New. Improved. Best Value. Cleans Better than Before."
"Making markets...." - again, meaningless babble. That has meaning in securities trading not coins.
Bottom line: "A 'CAC' sticker indicates they they would buy the coin - it is not a 'grade' opinion. If CAC folks do not happen to have a market for the coins submitted, they might not get little cute stickers."
Now, about that Monopoly game....
You are simply wrong. Sorry. I know you can read since you can write. If a coin is graded MS67, CAC verifies that it is in fact a 67 and a nice one. Here, I'll narrow it down a little so that you might actually read it this time:
@RogerB said:
Bologna. The statements reinforce what I posted, not refute them. Read the words with an open and critical mind.
"We verify previously graded coins" - I.e., they don't "grade" them.
"Standard for today's selective buyer" - might as well say "New. Improved. Best Value. Cleans Better than Before."
"Making markets...." - again, meaningless babble. That has meaning in securities trading not coins.
Bottom line: "A 'CAC' sticker indicates they they would buy the coin - it is not a 'grade' opinion. If CAC folks do not happen to have a market for the coins submitted, they might not get little cute stickers."
Now, about that Monopoly game....
You are simply wrong. Sorry. I know you can read since you can write. If a coin is graded MS67, CAC verifies that it is in fact a 67 and a nice one. Here, I'll narrow it down a little so that you might actually read it this time:
I also thought the sticker meant they want to buy/sell the coins they sticker. Just because you do not get a sticker does not mean they disagreed with the grade. It could very well mean they don't want to deal with them at this time.
@originalisbest said:
No guts, no glory, though it's easy for me to say since I have no skin in the game; but if you were to crack these out and submit to PCGS I'd wager they would maintain their numerical grades.
I am pretty sure that PCGS gives submitters a fair shake with or without the crackout.
That goes without saying, but thanks for stating the obvious. What is a differing factor is a coin outside plastic in raw form can simply be examined more thoroughly than it can through plastic.
I don't believe that I did state the obvious. Some feel that a pre graded coin is at a disadvantage.
If not mistaken, the principle of CAC (JA) started, or was part of starting both TPGs (NGC & PCGS). So to approve of those coins, after the fact , makes perfect sense. To not accept them is to say the people who followed in his footsteps just ain't as good. This is not that complex.
@RogerB said:
Bologna. The statements reinforce what I posted, not refute them. Read the words with an open and critical mind.
"We verify previously graded coins" - I.e., they don't "grade" them.
"Standard for today's selective buyer" - might as well say "New. Improved. Best Value. Cleans Better than Before."
"Making markets...." - again, meaningless babble. That has meaning in securities trading not coins.
Bottom line: "A 'CAC' sticker indicates they they would buy the coin - it is not a 'grade' opinion. If CAC folks do not happen to have a market for the coins submitted, they might not get little cute stickers."
Now, about that Monopoly game....
You are simply wrong. Sorry. I know you can read since you can write. If a coin is graded MS67, CAC verifies that it is in fact a 67 and a nice one. Here, I'll narrow it down a little so that you might actually read it this time:
I also thought the sticker meant they want to buy/sell the coins they sticker. Just because you do not get a sticker does not mean they disagreed with the grade. It could very well mean they don't want to deal with them at this time.
So much made up stuff about CAC. They sticker coins all the time that they are not looking to buy. They have NEVER bought a coin of mine out of the 1000 plus that have stickered. They are in fact blessing the grade as you can CLEARLY see from what I posted, right from their site.
If they were not blessing the grade, why are we all sending our coins to them? You could just send a raw coin and get a sticker then right? Of course they are verifying that the grade is right and that it is upper end for the grade.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
If not mistaken, the principle of CAC (JA) started, or was part of starting both TPGs (NGC & PCGS). So to approve of those coins, after the fact , makes perfect sense. To not accept them is to say the people who followed in his footsteps just ain't as good. This is not that complex.
The principle changes every time TDN or Specialist chime in.
@originalisbest said:
No guts, no glory, though it's easy for me to say since I have no skin in the game; but if you were to crack these out and submit to PCGS I'd wager they would maintain their numerical grades.
In normal times perhaps. We are not in normal times. I would never crack and submit in the current environment. At this point, I wouldn't even select cross at "any." I would leave them as is or set a minimum grade like the OP wisely did.
Don't worry, there is zero percent chance I would crack them out. I think the point is more that PCGS is in a weird mood and has been for the last few months - after all, many of us here have been playing this game for a LONG time. We are just seeing a change in the wind.
First, those are nice coins. Second, grades are just opinions and on a crossover the graders ALWAYS err on the side of caution, especially “at grade.” There is little incentive not to. I wouldn’t call 0/3 an epic failure. It’s disappointing sure, but that’s a common occurrence with grading.
Finally, if there is one single thing this forum has taught me it’s that there will NEVER be agreement on what a CAC sticker means. How anyone can fail to understand it the same way I do is one life’s unknowable mysteries.
The slab scratch is easily fixed. PM me if you can’t find my thread about how to do it.
@originalisbest said:
No guts, no glory, though it's easy for me to say since I have no skin in the game; but if you were to crack these out and submit to PCGS I'd wager they would maintain their numerical grades.
In normal times perhaps. We are not in normal times. I would never crack and submit in the current environment. At this point, I wouldn't even select cross at "any." I would leave them as is or set a minimum grade like the OP wisely did.
That I would agree with -- as I noted, easy to say from my vantage point, with no skin in it.
@Wabbit2313 said:
Am I correct in assuming they will be sent to CAC?
Maybe eventually. Kinda pissed at CAC right now. Recently sent them in a 1891 proof 25c (my favorite series, that I feel I am somewhat an expert in grading after 20 years) that I had allowed to downgrade from NGC 66CAM to a PCGS 65CAM (I think the coin is a 66CAM all day, but was not too concerned as I figured I would get a bean out of it).
Not only did JA not sticker the coin at 65CAM....but they didn't return my NGC cert and they scratched the hell out of my brand new holder:
When I complained about that all I got was "we take the upmost care of holders". So, CAC on my bad side at the moment.
That is indeed a bummer. Scratch is fixable but you shouldn't expect that back.
yes, PCGS is tight-but they are even keel tight. for a cheap fee you should have sent the coins to CAC first. you would at least know what had a shot and some times the bean helps.
@erwindoc said:
You can always sell me your star designated NGC coins! Always looking to add gems to the collection!
If I end up selling any, I will let you know. Currently am selling one 66 Star Morgan with FadeToBlack - PM him and he can get you the details if you are interested - it is very pretty.
@FadeToBlack said:
Well CAC stickers are backed by buy offers... so I consider CAC being JA saying "This coin is solid for the grade" and also silently saying he'd buy it. If he doesn't wanna buy it, he won't sticker it. Just because it's not explicitly said doesn't mean it's not the case, you have to read between the lines and get the implications of the policies they have.
This is incorrect. There are not set buy offers for all CAC coins. (He will make an offer as a courtesy if you ask him to.) He does sticker coins and most of those coins he does not want to buy. See the new thread for details.
@erwindoc said:
You can always sell me your star designated NGC coins! Always looking to add gems to the collection!
If I end up selling any, I will let you know. Currently am selling one 66 Star Morgan with FadeToBlack - PM him and he can get you the details if you are interested - it is very pretty.
They are very nice coins.... I really like that Walker. What intrigues me about this thread is the opinions on the grading service and CAC.... Remember, we are dealing with opinions (some call them grades) and opinions of opinions (CAC)... and now we add opinions on tight grading, crack don't crack, etc., etc., etc.. I am beginning to believe that one of the main reasons that grading coins has not been standardized (real, repeatable, measured standards) is that would certainly cut the business volume. Once graded to real standards, it would be final - and no second opinion would be necessary. Yeah... That's the ticket.... Cheers, RickO
@Insider2 said:
I agree with PCGS on the WL Proof. It's over graded by the standards I use.
I'm curious - what do you base this on? I have owned multiple PR67s and this coin is leaps and bounds ahead of those coins as well as any 68 I have compared it to in hand - and this is over the last 15 years or so. Just curious what you think you see in the image I posted.
@Insider2 said:
I agree with PCGS on the WL Proof. It's over graded by the standards I use.
I'm curious - what do you base this on? I have owned multiple PR67s and this coin is leaps and bounds ahead of those coins as well as any 68 I have compared it to in hand - and this is over the last 15 years or so. Just curious what you think you see in the image I posted.
Humor us (both me and the PCGS graders who did not cross the coin). I want you to look at your coin first and see if you can answer your own question, then I'll give my reasons.
Here is what you'll need to consider for the answer:
What is YOUR standard for a 68 grade? I can tell you mine based on the ANA grading guide.
How many impact marks are on your coin? You'll need to divide this up in your mind. Any marks on the coin that were on the original planchet are not as important as contact marks after the coin was struck (PMD).
Keep in mind I was not trying to argue the point - but rather to understand what you are seeing after your comment. After all, NGC not only gave the coin a 68... but a 68 STAR!
I consider myself a more tough grader than most - strictly following old school ANA grading standards...and have been that way for decades of experience. Probably handled 200 proof Walkers - this coin is one of maybe 10 I liked and had more cameo contrast than any I have handled.
A single very small hairline you need magnification to see is located in the lower section of the sun on the obverse. No other marks or hits worth mentioning. Fields are flawless. The NGC holder does have some spots and marks on it that get reflected.
There is a single small toning speck on the rim on the reverse at 4 O'Clock that is not distracting in any way - and it is the same toning you see on these high end proofs that spent time in the original mint packaging.
JA does not recognize Star or plus when verifying coins. That said I agree that PCGS may not like the '42 Walker for milk spots and some contact marks on high spots (NGC image is superb) but the Half Eagle is all there for me. Either way those Star coins are worth more in NGC holders for obvious reasons and crossover would mean a downgrade. Here is my question: Does PCGS return the labels after crossover like NGC does ?
Of course you were not arguing and I didn't take your question as anything but a quest for another opinion.
This is what I see IN THE IMAGE. You have the coin. Hits on the sun and neck. Trail of what looks like "Original Planchet Surface Impact (OPSI - my term) up the dress. Large hit on the hand, possibly OPSI. And the most detracting stain on the dress near "We" coupled with spots in the right field. Stains and spots are detracting. I count them as marks. In balance, a beautiful coin with too many imperfections to be my 68. I'm more comfortable w/67 and no star either.
PS based on what you know, I'd grade it as PR-67 and price it as PR-68 *.
BTW, I've had to pay dearly for anything I wanted regardless of its grade!-
Comments
A "CAC" sticker indicates they would buy the coin - it is not a "grade" opinion. If CAC folks do not happen to have a market for the coins submitted, they might not get little cute stickers.
Don't play "Monopoly" if you don't know the rules.
To answer your question : it translates to "Ooooh"
"Aaaahhhh."
Utter foolishness.
Why do you insist on making things up like this?
.
PCGS does not take notes on the coins they grade. It would take YEARS to get the coins back if all 3 graders had to do so.
Curious Roger, do you play this kind of "Monopoly" game? Have you sent coins to CAC?
People asking about notes were talking about CAC not PCGS.
They all do assign it a grade though, and that is available to the powers that be at PCGS.
How so? Are you implying that NGC coins are becoming more market acceptable?
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
My mistake!
Bologna. The statements reinforce what I posted, not refute them. Read the words with an open and critical mind.
"We verify previously graded coins" - I.e., they don't "grade" them.
"Standard for today's selective buyer" - might as well say "New. Improved. Best Value. Cleans Better than Before."
"Making markets...." - again, meaningless babble. That has meaning in securities trading not coins.
Bottom line: "A 'CAC' sticker indicates they they would buy the coin - it is not a 'grade' opinion. If CAC folks do not happen to have a market for the coins submitted, they might not get little cute stickers."
Now, about that Monopoly game....
To get CAC notes you have to request them on the order form. They don't take notes unless you specify you'd like them.
Then you can call after and talk with John about the coins. It's an amazing service
You are simply wrong. Sorry. I know you can read since you can write. If a coin is graded MS67, CAC verifies that it is in fact a 67 and a nice one. Here, I'll narrow it down a little so that you might actually read it this time:
I also thought the sticker meant they want to buy/sell the coins they sticker. Just because you do not get a sticker does not mean they disagreed with the grade. It could very well mean they don't want to deal with them at this time.
I don't believe that I did state the obvious. Some feel that a pre graded coin is at a disadvantage.
If not mistaken, the principle of CAC (JA) started, or was part of starting both TPGs (NGC & PCGS). So to approve of those coins, after the fact , makes perfect sense. To not accept them is to say the people who followed in his footsteps just ain't as good. This is not that complex.
So much made up stuff about CAC. They sticker coins all the time that they are not looking to buy. They have NEVER bought a coin of mine out of the 1000 plus that have stickered. They are in fact blessing the grade as you can CLEARLY see from what I posted, right from their site.
If they were not blessing the grade, why are we all sending our coins to them? You could just send a raw coin and get a sticker then right? Of course they are verifying that the grade is right and that it is upper end for the grade.
They do make notes.
The principle changes every time TDN or Specialist chime in.
Send all three to CAC and speak to JA about them...also you might take them to a show and have Doug Winter or other pros give you their opinion....
There is always the option to try again for the cross...I would definitely not crack out those coins...
Speaking to Doug Winter about the $5 is a good idea. Will take it to the next major show.
Sorry for the bad deal. Those are beautiful coins and anyone would be proud to own them.
In normal times perhaps. We are not in normal times. I would never crack and submit in the current environment. At this point, I wouldn't even select cross at "any." I would leave them as is or set a minimum grade like the OP wisely did.
Even Babe Ruth would strike out...
So PCGS is wrong on all 3 cross over coins and coin owner is right on all three?
Frinkin LOL!
And y'all advise him to crack them out?
Stoooopid advice.
Don't worry, there is zero percent chance I would crack them out. I think the point is more that PCGS is in a weird mood and has been for the last few months - after all, many of us here have been playing this game for a LONG time. We are just seeing a change in the wind.
First, those are nice coins. Second, grades are just opinions and on a crossover the graders ALWAYS err on the side of caution, especially “at grade.” There is little incentive not to. I wouldn’t call 0/3 an epic failure. It’s disappointing sure, but that’s a common occurrence with grading.
Finally, if there is one single thing this forum has taught me it’s that there will NEVER be agreement on what a CAC sticker means. How anyone can fail to understand it the same way I do is one life’s unknowable mysteries.
The slab scratch is easily fixed. PM me if you can’t find my thread about how to do it.
@BryceM ,
I've decided that I will just sit back and let you post for me because you always put down in (better) words exactly what I'm thinking.
I am going to double down on the "...those are nice coins..." comment.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
That I would agree with -- as I noted, easy to say from my vantage point, with no skin in it.
The coins still look good in the NGC holders but I wish you luck if you try to cross over again 👍
Stoooopid is as stooooopid does, sweetie pie.
That is indeed a bummer. Scratch is fixable but you shouldn't expect that back.
Sorry about being harsh originalisbest...I thought you was a dude.
Whatever you want to think I look like -- that's it. Who am I to ruin your fantasies.
Oh boy, sorry to hear that !!!
You can always sell me your star designated NGC coins! Always looking to add gems to the collection!
yes, PCGS is tight-but they are even keel tight. for a cheap fee you should have sent the coins to CAC first. you would at least know what had a shot and some times the bean helps.
If I end up selling any, I will let you know. Currently am selling one 66 Star Morgan with FadeToBlack - PM him and he can get you the details if you are interested - it is very pretty.
This is incorrect. There are not set buy offers for all CAC coins. (He will make an offer as a courtesy if you ask him to.) He does sticker coins and most of those coins he does not want to buy. See the new thread for details.
Well you have to show the coin now! @FadeToBlack
As I've seen many post here, not disparaging original poster, want a coin in that holder, buy it that way. I use to play the game, no more.
They are very nice coins.... I really like that Walker. What intrigues me about this thread is the opinions on the grading service and CAC.... Remember, we are dealing with opinions (some call them grades) and opinions of opinions (CAC)... and now we add opinions on tight grading, crack don't crack, etc., etc., etc.. I am beginning to believe that one of the main reasons that grading coins has not been standardized (real, repeatable, measured standards) is that would certainly cut the business volume. Once graded to real standards, it would be final - and no second opinion would be necessary. Yeah... That's the ticket....
Cheers, RickO
I agree with PCGS on the WL Proof. It's over graded by the standards I use.
I'm curious - what do you base this on? I have owned multiple PR67s and this coin is leaps and bounds ahead of those coins as well as any 68 I have compared it to in hand - and this is over the last 15 years or so. Just curious what you think you see in the image I posted.
Humor us (both me and the PCGS graders who did not cross the coin). I want you to look at your coin first and see if you can answer your own question, then I'll give my reasons.
Here is what you'll need to consider for the answer:
Let me know your answer.
Keep in mind I was not trying to argue the point - but rather to understand what you are seeing after your comment. After all, NGC not only gave the coin a 68... but a 68 STAR!
JA does not recognize Star or plus when verifying coins. That said I agree that PCGS may not like the '42 Walker for milk spots and some contact marks on high spots (NGC image is superb) but the Half Eagle is all there for me. Either way those Star coins are worth more in NGC holders for obvious reasons and crossover would mean a downgrade. Here is my question: Does PCGS return the labels after crossover like NGC does ?
Of course you were not arguing and I didn't take your question as anything but a quest for another opinion.
This is what I see IN THE IMAGE. You have the coin. Hits on the sun and neck. Trail of what looks like "Original Planchet Surface Impact (OPSI - my term) up the dress. Large hit on the hand, possibly OPSI. And the most detracting stain on the dress near "We" coupled with spots in the right field. Stains and spots are detracting. I count them as marks. In balance, a beautiful coin with too many imperfections to be my 68. I'm more comfortable w/67 and no star either.
PS based on what you know, I'd grade it as PR-67 and price it as PR-68 *.
BTW, I've had to pay dearly for anything I wanted regardless of its grade!-