I don’t normally post pics of my Indian Cents...

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MrEureka
MrEureka Posts: 24,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

...but this one is too bad to keep to myself!

Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

Comments

  • cheezhed
    cheezhed Posts: 6,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    What is the story behind this?

    Many happy BST transactions
  • EagleEye
    EagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I want it! Just tell me how much.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • MrEureka
    MrEureka Posts: 24,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @EagleEye said:
    I want it! Just tell me how much.

    Wrong forum! Go to the BST! 🤑

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • kaz
    kaz Posts: 9,378 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    what date is T89T? :o

  • asheland
    asheland Posts: 24,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Cool actually!

    My YouTube Channel

  • DIMEMAN
    DIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Some type of error I guess. :/

  • Raybo
    Raybo Posts: 5,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I want it, but why?

  • SanctionII
    SanctionII Posts: 13,185 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Is there a mintmatk beneath the wreath on the reverse? Possibly as S?

  • bjamin
    bjamin Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
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    I always feel a little left out and dumb when two experts start talking in their heady own advanced numismatic language while leaving me in my early/beginning hobby stage where I realize I know little to nothing.

  • Hemispherical
    Hemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2018 10:56PM
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    @bjamin said:
    I always feel a little left out and dumb when two experts start talking in their heady own advanced numismatic language while leaving me in my early/beginning hobby stage where I realize I know little to nothing.

    Too true. But coin looks a bit funny. ;)

  • Lakesammman
    Lakesammman Posts: 17,696 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Wow - now that's crazy. Even I can see somethings not right..... :D

    Gone but not forgotten: IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal, CoinsAreFun.
  • Broadstruck
    Broadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @bjamin said:
    I always feel a little left out and dumb when two experts start talking in their heady own advanced numismatic language while leaving me in my early/beginning hobby stage where I realize I know little to nothing.

    It's e pluribus unum out of known 1891 contemporary counterfeit IHC's.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • tychojoe
    tychojoe Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018 4:42AM
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    @Broadstruck said:
    It's e pluribus unum out of known 1891 contemporary counterfeit IHC's.

    Did any of the pluribus look as bad as this one? :smile:

    My Sets: Barber Halves, US Type
  • Broadstruck
    Broadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @tychojoe said:

    @Broadstruck said:
    It's e pluribus unum out of known 1891 contemporary counterfeit IHC's.

    Did any of the pluribus look as bad as this one? :smile:

    Last one I saw was about 5 years ago and they are all really crude looking.

    The neat part is why in the world would someone spend so much time making a counterfeit cent when it was just as time consuming to do higher denominations. I guess just as cashiers today question the authenticity of $50 and $100 bills, no one ever inspects a $1 bill.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • Koinicker
    Koinicker Posts: 289 ✭✭✭
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    I've got a couple of these as well - they are cool. At least 50 are estimated to still exist



  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I had never seen this particular counterfeit! Way kewl!

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Very interesting....I did not know about this IHC counterfeit.... certainly obvious to those who know IHC's.... I am sure it fooled people back in the day... and even now for new collectors. Cheers, RickO

  • 291fifth
    291fifth Posts: 25,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    In spite of their being obvious counterfeits they appear to have spent a long time in circulation. I guess it is true that the bad penny always comes back!

    All glory is fleeting.
  • TwoSides2aCoin
    TwoSides2aCoin Posts: 45,216 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm guessing VF. Very funny.

  • jabba
    jabba Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It’s cool


    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923

  • lkenefic
    lkenefic Posts: 9,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2018 10:01AM
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    Wow, now that is seriously cool. Does anyone know the history behind these pieces?

    Edited to add... are they made of copper?

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • johnny9434
    johnny9434 Posts: 34,049 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Raybo said:
    I want it, but why?

    its the disease we got raybo, me included :|

  • Koinicker
    Koinicker Posts: 289 ✭✭✭
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    @lkenefic said:
    Wow, now that is seriously cool. Does anyone know the history behind these pieces?

    Edited to add... are they made of copper?

    They are copper. And unfortunately after 2+ years of fairly exhaustive reviews of historic newspapers and other related documents I have not found a single report of a counterfeit '1891' dated Indian cent. I've found a handful of other reports of contemporary counterfeit struck counterfeit Indians, but weirdly those dates have not yet surfaced (at least in my research they haven't).

  • Namvet69
    Namvet69 Posts: 9,423 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Okay, 50 known and in what reference work are they listed with a catalogue number? Weight, size close to an IHC, could they be a restrikes or overstrikes? Tell us more. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Notice that the 1’s in the date were punched with the right part of an M punch cut into two pieces, and that the M of AMERICA was punched from the two pieces with the left piece predominant.

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • Koinicker
    Koinicker Posts: 289 ✭✭✭
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    @Namvet69 said:
    Okay, 50 known and in what reference work are they listed with a catalogue number? Weight, size close to an IHC, could they be a restrikes or overstrikes? Tell us more. Peace Roy

    These have never been published in a reference as far as I'm aware. But give it about a year and this variety, along with many other contemporary counterfeit U.S. copper coins, will be published in an upcoming book on this subject.

    A population of 50 is a conservative estimate based on having owned 5-7 of these over the years, and casually seen a handful more. I looked in my box and forgot I own a double-struck example of this variety - pretty cool piece.
    Size is approximately the same as an IHC planchet (if not slightly larger) 19.0 to 19.25mm
    Weight is slightly high (but within general mint tolerance) - 3.1 to 3.2g

    Great additional info @CaptHenway

  • Namvet69
    Namvet69 Posts: 9,423 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes, thanks for that. I have to check a bunch of IHC for the funky 1's. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW

  • mr1931S
    mr1931S Posts: 7,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I've got an IHC dated boldly as made in year "7". The 1, 9, and 0 are very,very faint. It's the centerpiece of my modest IHC collection and I consider myself fortunate to own it.

    Bona fide mint error. i'm thinking the coin was struck from a die with grease filled date digits except for the "7".

    "Two things are infinite: human stupidity and the universe; and I'm not sure about the universe."
    -Albert Einstein-

    Mistakes are natural. But repeated mistakes without reflection are something else. That may be the “stupidity” he was referring to. In research, he admitted uncertainty openly. “If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?” This shows humility. Even a Nobel laureate accepted doubt. That humility makes the quote less cynical and more observational.

  • lkenefic
    lkenefic Posts: 9,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Koinicker said:

    @lkenefic said:
    Wow, now that is seriously cool. Does anyone know the history behind these pieces?

    Edited to add... are they made of copper?

    They are copper. And unfortunately after 2+ years of fairly exhaustive reviews of historic newspapers and other related documents I have not found a single report of a counterfeit '1891' dated Indian cent. I've found a handful of other reports of contemporary counterfeit struck counterfeit Indians, but weirdly those dates have not yet surfaced (at least in my research they haven't).

    The HT tokens of the 1830's made sense, the civil war tokens and store token made sense since commerce needs to keep on and currency was scarce. But the Panic of 1893 was still a couple of years away, and lower denomination currencies weren't as affected. So, why a counterfeit 1 cent?? Unless someone was testing out die press capabilities. .. just a hunch.

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.

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