This stuff has been around for a very long time. Ruth used testosterone in 1925. Players have always looked for an advantage. in fact, during the 1923 season Ruth used an illegal laminated bat for 40 games until Ban Johnson put a stop to it. He slashed .448/.576/.860 over that time period. Most will do whatever they can to gain an advantage.
The steroid epidemic didn't exist in baseball until the early 90's or later. All one must do is look at the back of the cards and look at the weight of the top players. When Jose Canseco was a rookie is card said either 185 or 195. Barry Bonds was in the same range. Then the number began to balloon and Jose at his biggest was easily 260. You can't naturally achieve that. It is as simple as that.
@Dpeck100 said:
The steroid epidemic didn't exist in baseball until the early 90's or later. All one must do is look at the back of the cards and look at the weight of the top players. When Jose Canseco was a rookie is card said either 185 or 195. Barry Bonds was in the same range. Then the number began to balloon and Jose at his biggest was easily 260. You can't naturally achieve that. It is as simple as that.
You do realize that mantle had steroids injected in 1961 right? It caused a giant abscess that caused him to miss time during the home run race with maris
Mantle I see weighed 198 at 6’0. Steroids have become much more powerful just look at Arnold vs. the modern crop of heavyweight bodybuilders.
He may have been on stuff and I am not familiar with the allegations but if you run the stats of guys like Canseco at 6’5 265 at his peak it is 3.44 pounds per inch. Mantle is 2.75. Wildly different outcomes if drugs were used by Mantle.
We will never know who did what when. If Hull was a 90’s baseball player everyone would look at this photo and be sure he juiced. Maybe he did even back then. Maybe he worked really hard and had genetics predisposed to building mass. To me all we can do is look at the numbers and results and judge players that way. I do not know who was clean and who was not.
We will never know who did what when. If Hull was a 90’s baseball player everyone would look at this photo and be sure he juiced. Maybe he did even back then. Maybe he worked really hard and had genetics predisposed to building mass. To me all we can do is look at the numbers and results and judge players that way. I do not know who was clean and who was not.
Couple things with that photo, being “Shredded” doesn’t mean you juiced, in that photo he is throwing a bail of hay. That’s like taking a photo of someone doing curls and being like “wow look at his muscles bulging, he is on the juice” Juice for younger guys is harder to tell, especially if they are in a high level training program like professional sports. The way I see it is guys that play consistently better as they age is the best sign, if Tom Brady was found out to be using Test I would not be shocked. One thing is people today are in better shape and look much better than people Pre 2000’s. I’m 48 and in pretty good shape yet I look at a pic of my father at 48 and he looks like an old man.
@Dpeck100 said:
The steroid epidemic didn't exist in baseball until the early 90's or later. All one must do is look at the back of the cards and look at the weight of the top players. When Jose Canseco was a rookie is card said either 185 or 195. Barry Bonds was in the same range. Then the number began to balloon and Jose at his biggest was easily 260. You can't naturally achieve that. It is as simple as that.
You do realize that mantle had steroids injected in 1961 right? It caused a giant abscess that caused him to miss time during the home run race with maris
That was a medial use, not to put on 40 lbs of muscle. There's a huge difference. Substances used for "recovery" had been seen as legitimate for decades until the 90's when they started to get abused. Getting back on the field is different than using substances to put on bulk hoping it allows for more power, ie., make you better than you are.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
@perkdog said:
Couple things with that photo, being “Shredded” doesn’t mean you juiced, in that photo he is throwing a bail of hay. That’s like taking a photo of someone doing curls and being like “wow look at his muscles bulging, he is on the juice” Juice for younger guys is harder to tell, especially if they are in a high level training program like professional sports. The way I see it is guys that play consistently better as they age is the best sign, if Tom Brady was found out to be using Test I would not be shocked. One thing is people today are in better shape and look much better than people Pre 2000’s. I’m 48 and in pretty good shape yet I look at a pic of my father at 48 and he looks like an old man.
Agree with everything you said. The point I was trying to make is that is what is happening to guys like Bagwell and Piazza. We will never know who used and who did not. Speculating is just silly. Given I have no idea I look at all the numbers of 90s baseball as relative to their time. If you put up HOF numbers naturally I applaud you and you should be very proud. If you put them up with steroids too bad Baseball didn’t try to do anything to deter the use but under that environment I can see how you feel like you needed to keep up. I don’t know so I just look at the numbers in that context.
@perkdog said:
Couple things with that photo, being “Shredded” doesn’t mean you juiced, in that photo he is throwing a bail of hay. That’s like taking a photo of someone doing curls and being like “wow look at his muscles bulging, he is on the juice” Juice for younger guys is harder to tell, especially if they are in a high level training program like professional sports. The way I see it is guys that play consistently better as they age is the best sign, if Tom Brady was found out to be using Test I would not be shocked. One thing is people today are in better shape and look much better than people Pre 2000’s. I’m 48 and in pretty good shape yet I look at a pic of my father at 48 and he looks like an old man.
Agree with everything you said. The point I was trying to make is that is what is happening to guys like Bagwell and Piazza. We will never know who used and who did not. Speculating is just silly. Given I have no idea I look at all the numbers of 90s baseball as relative to their time. If you put up HOF numbers naturally I applaud you and you should be very proud. If you put them up with steroids too bad Baseball didn’t try to do anything to deter the use but under that environment I can see how you feel like you needed to keep up. I don’t know so I just look at the numbers in that context.
100% agreed. Personally If I was a baseball player in the 90’s and I’m watching the players around me signing huge contracts due to inflated numbers from juice then you can bet I’m doing it to. The way I see it players in the 90’s were all on the same playing field or most of them were.
IMO, Barry Bonds may be the most "unfortunate" casualty of the PED era. By all rational observation, he was a spectacular baseball player prior to using PED's(which surely began in the mid to late 90's). He has an eye for the ball and a great swing. He had all the tools offensively and defensively. He was a sure-fire HOFer with the numbers he was putting up.
But any rational person knows he used. The other part that is hard to account for was his "body armor". That allowed him to crowd the plate and take advantage of an era with subpar pitching. Its hard to discern how much of his inflated power numbers was due to the juice, or how much can be explained by his protected batting stance, juiced balls and poor pitching. Again, its unfortunate because he would have been unarguably seen as one of the top three players of his generation and would be in the HOF. But now, he's basically a topic of debate.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
@Dpeck100 said:
The steroid epidemic didn't exist in baseball until the early 90's or later. All one must do is look at the back of the cards and look at the weight of the top players. When Jose Canseco was a rookie is card said either 185 or 195. Barry Bonds was in the same range. Then the number began to balloon and Jose at his biggest was easily 260. You can't naturally achieve that. It is as simple as that.
Check out Vlad....165 lbs on his rookie card...played his last several years at 245...80 lbs heavier
Successful transactions with FavreFan1971, ffishonn, Davemri, Publius, DavidPuddy, frcarvell, recbball, and many others...
I took this picture back in 1992 at a spring training game in Plant City Florida. The transformation Bonds made to his body from 1999 to the time until he retired is absolutely nuts. I'm a diehard Pirates fan and Bonds was my guy as he still is.
"EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY IT SAYS IT RIGHT THERE ON THE WALL" - JACKIE MOON
My dad was a multi sport athlete through college. He did track & field, basketball, and baseball. When I was growing up in the late 70s and early 80s he would tell me that I get better at sports by playing and I can get stronger by working hard and eating right. His idea of working, was 100 sit-ups, 100 push ups and 50 pull ups per day. Plus my weekly yard work. Eating right was basically eat your veggies and have a glass of milk. And trust me, where yard work was concerned, I wasn't doing the Bobby Hull work out. No 40 acre, corn fed, ranch hand hand, I was just mowing lawns and raking and scooping leaves. But it still made a difference. I was like 90 pounds of muscular athletic child. I never worked with weights or focused on muscle groups. Just lots of play time and basic calisthenics.
By the mid/late 80s I was entering high school, considering playing football, and weights started to come into the picture. Well I skipped football, but the soccer team was doing a weights program which was great. But I did notice that some of the football players who entered the season at similar sizes as me we're having massive body transformations. That was the first I'd heard of steroids. A few of them were actually taking injections which scared the living crap out of me. Others were taking regularly available supplements from this new place called GNC. Where the injections sounded like bad mojo, this other stuff seemed to fit in the area of eating right. Muscle building shakes, creatine, etc. Hell, if I can buy it at a local store it should be fine, right? That's when I heard McGwire was doing creatine. And though I never went that route, I was drinking a protein shake daily and gaining a little mass. So, I can see where folks who were getting results could slide down that slippery slope. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no rule against this stuff at that point. Aside from maybe the injections, this stuff was readily available at any mall and seemed like the equivalent of a powerful scientific Flintsones vitamin. Any player with a trainer at any level high school and above was probably taking some product, especially if they were seeing others get positive results.
That said, it's hard for me to demonize the early adopters. They were seemingly within the rules and leveraging products that were readily available. Even the guys who may have taken it a step too far, still weren't breaking any written rule that I am aware of...and please correct me if I'm wrong here because it will greatly change how I feel.
My biggest issue is with those who continued to leverage these substances after the rule adoption. Mostly because that tells me you were readily and knowingly "cheating." Especially those who were attempting to use new substances that couldn't be detected.
Personally, I give a little leeway to those who finished their careers by 1995-2000 and had already shown brilliance. Despite the fact that several seemingly continued to try to beat the system, they were already "users" and I'd imagine putting the genie back in the bottle was tough. The guys busted post 2000, are full blown cheaters and have ignored the stats of long term negatives and preferred the short term gains. On some level, with the $ involved, who can blame them. Vast majority won't make the Hall anyway. But pulling a couple million and playing in the bigs may indeed be worth it. Unfortunately, not everyone was/is popped and all we can do now is speculate on certain players in the HOF discussion.
I don't think I'll ever consider any records set during that time to be truly legitimate and can't count any players from that era to be on my list of all-time greats because of the question marks. But it was a weird time of body science, pharma and sports all coming together and initially no written rule preventing it. That 10-15 year period of baseball is just part of its evolution, and should be taken in appropriate context. Let some of these guys in. No asterisk needed unless comparing them to players of different eras really. With or without roids, measuring players from different eras, regardless of sport is tough. So measure them within their era and assume just about everyone was on something. Otherwise, it seems that you're only cheating if you get caught...and some weren't even breaking an actual rule.
52-90 All Sports, Mostly Topps, Mostly HOF, and some assorted wax.
@Dpeck100 said:
The steroid epidemic didn't exist in baseball until the early 90's or later. All one must do is look at the back of the cards and look at the weight of the top players. When Jose Canseco was a rookie is card said either 185 or 195. Barry Bonds was in the same range. Then the number began to balloon and Jose at his biggest was easily 260. You can't naturally achieve that. It is as simple as that.
You do realize that mantle had steroids injected in 1961 right? It caused a giant abscess that caused him to miss time during the home run race with maris
That was a medial use, not to put on 40 lbs of muscle. There's a huge difference. Substances used for "recovery" had been seen as legitimate for decades until the 90's when they started to get abused. Getting back on the field is different than using substances to put on bulk hoping it allows for more power, ie., make you better than you are.
So by this reasoning, you are ok with HGH use as that is generally used to aid in recovery?
Steroids hit baseball in the early 80s at the latest. Does no one remember Brian Downing? Career high of 12 homers suddenly hits 28 at age 31 in 1982? Pete Incavigilia in 1986?
@Tabe said:
Steroids hit baseball in the early 80s at the latest. Does no one remember Brian Downing? Career high of 12 homers suddenly hits 28 at age 31 in 1982? Pete Incavigilia in 1986?
Well Boggs had a big HR jump I think it was on 1987? He could hit hr’s But it wasn’t his style of play, I feel that Downing was a similar type leadoff hitter? Big Pete was a rookie in ‘86. I didn’t google research any of this if I’m wrong
There might have been some users but it wasn’t an epidemic in 1986. I don't have it in front of me but I am almost positive Mark McGwire is listed at 195 on his 87 Donruss card.
With each generation appearances change but for whatever reason I thought of the image of Gorman Thomas from his 86 Fleer card. He was a "big" guy at 6'2 210.
@Tabe said:
Steroids hit baseball in the early 80s at the latest. Does no one remember Brian Downing? Career high of 12 homers suddenly hits 28 at age 31 in 1982? Pete Incavigilia in 1986?
Well Boggs had a big HR jump I think it was on 1987? He could hit hr’s But it wasn’t his style of play, I feel that Downing was a similar type leadoff hitter? Big Pete was a rookie in ‘86. I didn’t google research any of this if I’m wrong
I remember a story that said Boggs hit those home runs that one year because his teammates were making fun of him because all he did was hit singles and he wanted to prove a point.
@Tabe said:
Steroids hit baseball in the early 80s at the latest. Does no one remember Brian Downing? Career high of 12 homers suddenly hits 28 at age 31 in 1982? Pete Incavigilia in 1986?
Well Boggs had a big HR jump I think it was on 1987? He could hit hr’s But it wasn’t his style of play, I feel that Downing was a similar type leadoff hitter? Big Pete was a rookie in ‘86. I didn’t google research any of this if I’m wrong
Downing wasn't a similar type player. You ever seen Downing's arms? They went from normal to Hulk Hogan.
A couple of quick points that address many different things in the thread:
As a Mantle guy, the 1961 abscess related injection was a ‘drug cocktail’ given by Dr. Max Jacobson; a doctor to the stars who was known for his "miracle tissue regenerator" shots, which consisted of amphetamines, animal hormones, bone marrow, enzymes, human placenta, painkillers, steroids, and multivitamins. As the point of the injection was ‘immediate symptom relief’ and it ‘worked’ incredibly well, it was believed to be mostly amphetamines. Hence, Jacobsens nickname as the original ‘Dr. Feel Good’. But to say that because of this Mickey used steroids is like saying I’m a vampire because I once got a drop of someone else’s blood on my tongue. He could have been on a steroid regimen - who really knows - but this specific 1961 incident was a one time injection and after how it turned out, Mickey swore off the guy for good.
Steroids and PEDs have improved so dramatically but guys were taking the best stuff available - for a long time during baseball history. Hank Aaron, for instance, admitted to it in his book and said he was not the only one. Get that edge, whatever it takes - and the fame and money that comes with it. To me, I can’t feign shock when we all knew. It made for great summers, anyway - I’ll never forget the Big MAC and Sammy Sosa summers.
Barry Bonds was what happens when you take one of the top 5 players in the game and put him on a chemical regimen to maximize strength, endurance and minimizing recovery time. Anybody who plays a sport - even for fun - knows that when you finally get to the point where you fully grasp the game mentally that is usually have your body break down (another of life’s wonderful ironies) so imagine if you could play longer when you’ve figured it all out?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
A couple of quick points that address many different things in the thread:
As a Mantle guy, the 1961 abscess related injection was a ‘drug cocktail’ given by Dr. Max Jacobson; a doctor to the stars who was known for his "miracle tissue regenerator" shots, which consisted of amphetamines, animal hormones, bone marrow, enzymes, human placenta, painkillers, steroids, and multivitamins. As the point of the injection was ‘immediate symptom relief’ and it ‘worked’ incredibly well, it was believed to be mostly amphetamines. Hence, Jacobsens nickname as the original ‘Dr. Feel Good’. But to say that because of this Mickey used steroids is like saying I’m a vampire because I once got a drop of someone else’s blood on my tongue. He could have been on a steroid regimen - who really knows - but this specific 1961 incident was a one time injection and after how it turned out, Mickey swore off the guy for good.
Steroids and PEDs have improved so dramatically but guys were taking the best stuff available - for a long time during baseball history. Hank Aaron, for instance, admitted to it in his book and said he was not the only one. Get that edge, whatever it takes - and the fame and money that comes with it. To me, I can’t feign shock when we all knew. It made for great summers, anyway - I’ll never forget the Big MAC and Sammy Sosa summers.
Barry Bonds was what happens when you take one of the top 5 players in the game and put him on a chemical regimen to maximize strength, endurance and minimizing recovery time. Anybody who plays a sport - even for fun - knows that when you finally get to the point where you fully grasp the game mentally that is usually have your body break down (another of life’s wonderful ironies) so imagine if you could play longer when you’ve figured it all out?
You can spin it any way you want, but at the end of the day mantle took steroids/peds. Everyone has an excuse, from bonds saying he thought it was flax seed oil to Pettite saying he only did it once and then felt guilty. Whatever the excuse, they cheated be it once or 500 times.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
A couple of quick points that address many different things in the thread:
As a Mantle guy, the 1961 abscess related injection was a ‘drug cocktail’ given by Dr. Max Jacobson; a doctor to the stars who was known for his "miracle tissue regenerator" shots, which consisted of amphetamines, animal hormones, bone marrow, enzymes, human placenta, painkillers, steroids, and multivitamins. As the point of the injection was ‘immediate symptom relief’ and it ‘worked’ incredibly well, it was believed to be mostly amphetamines. Hence, Jacobsens nickname as the original ‘Dr. Feel Good’. But to say that because of this Mickey used steroids is like saying I’m a vampire because I once got a drop of someone else’s blood on my tongue. He could have been on a steroid regimen - who really knows - but this specific 1961 incident was a one time injection and after how it turned out, Mickey swore off the guy for good.
Steroids and PEDs have improved so dramatically but guys were taking the best stuff available - for a long time during baseball history. Hank Aaron, for instance, admitted to it in his book and said he was not the only one. Get that edge, whatever it takes - and the fame and money that comes with it. To me, I can’t feign shock when we all knew. It made for great summers, anyway - I’ll never forget the Big MAC and Sammy Sosa summers.
Barry Bonds was what happens when you take one of the top 5 players in the game and put him on a chemical regimen to maximize strength, endurance and minimizing recovery time. Anybody who plays a sport - even for fun - knows that when you finally get to the point where you fully grasp the game mentally that is usually have your body break down (another of life’s wonderful ironies) so imagine if you could play longer when you’ve figured it all out?
You can spin it any way you want, but at the end of the day mantle took steroids/peds. Everyone has an excuse, from bonds saying he thought it was flax seed oil to Pettite saying he only did it once and then felt guilty. Whatever the excuse, they cheated be it once or 500 times.
I believe context matters, myself. Looking into it a little, this guy was a quack who passed off speed as medicine to many. Until he was exposed as a fraud.
Again, I’m not saying there’s no chance Mickey took steroids - he wasn’t really a high character guy so I wouldn’t put it past him at all. Just saying that having looked into it some, he was basically injecting people with a rudimentary version of crystal meth. Again, Dr. Feel Good not Dr. Be Strong.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Dr. Max Jacobson treated many famous individuals including Lauren Bacall, Ingrid Bergman, Leonard Bernstein, Humphrey Bogart, Yul Brynner, Maria Callas, Truman Capote, Van Cliburn, Montgomery Clift, Rosemary Clooney, Maya Deren, Cecil B. DeMille, Marlene Dietrich, Eddie Fisher, Judy Garland, Hedy Lamarr, Alan Jay Lerner, Mickey Mantle, Liza Minnelli, Thelonious Monk, Marilyn Monroe, Zero Mostel, Elvis Presley, Anthony Quinn, Paul Robeson, Nelson Rockefeller, David O. Selznick, Elizabeth Taylor, Billy Wilder and Tennessee Williams.[5][6][7] Dubbed "Dr. Feelgood", Jacobson was known for his "miracle tissue regenerator" shots, which consisted of amphetamines, animal hormones, bone marrow, enzymes, human placenta, painkillers, steroids, and multivitamins.[5][8]
John F. Kennedy first visited Jacobson in September 1960, shortly before the 1960 presidential election debates.[9] Jacobson was part of the presidential entourage at the Vienna summit in 1961, where he administered injections to combat severe back pain. Some of the potential side effects included hyperactivity, impaired judgment, nervousness, and wild mood swings. Kennedy, however, was untroubled by FDA reports on the contents of Jacobson’s injections, and proclaimed: "I don’t care if it’s horse piss. It works."[10] Jacobson was used for the most severe bouts of back pain.[11] By May 1962, Jacobson had visited the White House to treat the president 34 times,[12][13] although such treatments were stopped by President Kennedy's White House physicians, who realized the inappropriate use of steroids and amphetamines administered by Jacobson.[14] It was later observed that President Kennedy's leadership (e.g. the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, and other events during 1963) improved greatly once Jacobson's treatments were discontinued and replaced by a medically appropriate regimen. Dr. Ghaemi, who studied Kennedy's medical records, concluded there was a "correlation; it is not causation; but it may not be coincidence either".[14]
By the late 1960s, Jacobson's behavior became increasingly erratic as his own amphetamine usage increased. He began working 24-hour days and was seeing up to 30 patients per day. In 1969, one of Jacobson's clients, former presidential photographer Mark Shaw, died at the age of 47. An autopsy showed that Shaw had died of "acute and chronic intravenous amphetamine poisoning."[12] Under questioning, Jacobson's staff admitted to buying large quantities of amphetamines to give many high level doses. The Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs seized Jacobson's supply, and his medical license was revoked on April 25, 1975, by the New York State Board of Regents.[15]
Jacobson attempted to regain his license in 1979 but was denied. A state spokesmen stated that the then 79-year-old Jacobson didn't seem ready to enter into the "mainstream of practice" again.[12] Jacobson died in December that year.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@craig44 said:
And that ladies and gentlemen is the Wikipedia page for a Dr who injected mantle with steroids.
Correct - anyone on that list looking to bulk up?
You dont think Mantle was looking for an edge? Why else take the injection. Right, to recover. sure... Mantle was such a high morals guy as it was.
Simply put, Mantle knowingly took an injection that had Steroids in it. He was a PED user. He should be lumped in with all the others, but of course he isnt because he is from the golden age of the 50's and was hero to millions. You know, aw shucks Mickey, boys will be boys and all that. well, some players seem to be made of teflon and people dont hold them accountable like Ortiz, Pettitte and the Mick.
@craig44 said:
And that ladies and gentlemen is the Wikipedia page for a Dr who injected mantle with steroids.
Correct - anyone on that list looking to bulk up?
You dont think Mantle was looking for an edge? Why else take the injection. Right, to recover. sure... Mantle was such a high morals guy as it was.
Simply put, Mantle knowingly took an injection that had Steroids in it. He was a PED user. He should be lumped in with all the others, but of course he isnt because he is from the golden age of the 50's and was hero to millions. You know, aw shucks Mickey, boys will be boys and all that. well, some players seem to be made of teflon and people dont hold them accountable like Ortiz, Pettitte and the Mick.
Since you are not reading my posts ( and maybe never were) I’ll let it go...
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I read your posts. you are trying to down play Mantles steroid use by comparing his use to actresses, writers and non athletes who were not trying to "bulk up" but were clearly looking for another type of advantage.
Mantle was clearly looking for a competitive advantage. whether that was coming from a desire to "bulk up" or not, he was cheating, or at least trying to. So yes, he gets thrown in the same barrel as the rest of the cheaters.
@craig44 said:
I read your posts. you are trying to down play Mantles steroid use by comparing his use to actresses, writers and non athletes who were not trying to "bulk up" but were clearly looking for another type of advantage.
Mantle was clearly looking for a competitive advantage. whether that was coming from a desire to "bulk up" or not, he was cheating, or at least trying to. So yes, he gets thrown in the same barrel as the rest of the cheaters.
I love when people use ‘clearly’ and ‘obviously’ incorrectly. But because I genuinely think you don’t know what you are talking about with regards to this specific (and rather famous) story, I’ll spell it out for you, mainly because it’s kinda funny:
The only thing that Mickey Mantle was clearly looking for was a cure for the clap. That’s the truth of the matter and it doesn’t exactly cast him in a nice light but it is what it is; THIS is a fact and you can look it up.
As I previously mentioned, Mickey was NOT a high character guy and if you have some other evidence he took steroids, bring it on - I’d be interested and it wouldn’t be that hard to believe - the man was a God on The Diamond as a player and teammate but a real sh*t in almost all other aspects of humanity. Such is life.
Several patients of Dr. Jacobson died of amphetamine ODs. Even comedian Billy Crystal said his mom would see this very same doctor for ‘treatment’, come home and ‘make 9 pot roasts in an hour! And he never told people what he was giving them - he was quite a snake oil salesman.
BOTTOM LINE?
Mickey wasn’t looking for more HR but rather less STD.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@craig44 said:
I read your posts. you are trying to down play Mantles steroid use by comparing his use to actresses, writers and non athletes who were not trying to "bulk up" but were clearly looking for another type of advantage.
Mantle was clearly looking for a competitive advantage. whether that was coming from a desire to "bulk up" or not, he was cheating, or at least trying to. So yes, he gets thrown in the same barrel as the rest of the cheaters.
@craig44 said:
I read your posts. you are trying to down play Mantles steroid use by comparing his use to actresses, writers and non athletes who were not trying to "bulk up" but were clearly looking for another type of advantage.
Mantle was clearly looking for a competitive advantage. whether that was coming from a desire to "bulk up" or not, he was cheating, or at least trying to. So yes, he gets thrown in the same barrel as the rest of the cheaters.
What a truly bizarre, non-sensical argument.
What exactly is bizarre and non -sensical? Mantle used steroids. And amphetamines for that matter.
@craig44 said:
I read your posts. you are trying to down play Mantles steroid use by comparing his use to actresses, writers and non athletes who were not trying to "bulk up" but were clearly looking for another type of advantage.
Mantle was clearly looking for a competitive advantage. whether that was coming from a desire to "bulk up" or not, he was cheating, or at least trying to. So yes, he gets thrown in the same barrel as the rest of the cheaters.
What a truly bizarre, non-sensical argument.
What exactly is bizarre and non -sensical? Mantle used steroids. And amphetamines for that matter.
Because over the years, the Jacobson guy claimed there was a lot of different things in his miracle shot (really crazy stuff, at times, and he was self medicating, too) but as time went on people figured out he was just giving everyone he treated massive doses of amphetamines. The other stuff was ‘for show’, if even in there at all.
As always, you are entitled to you own opinion, too.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@Dpeck100 said:
Taking uppers vs. drugs that turn you into an animal I don't believe is a good comparison.
Forgive me as I am just now reading about this topic and replying to what interests me.
Amphetamines such as Adderall can be considered an "upper" yes; but it does help with focus and concentration considerably (I was on it for several years).
Those are the types of PED's that are being used for the most part. Not so much to get bigger. Pretty sure a lot of time in the gym was also included n the regiment.
So yea, I'd say the comparison is actually somewhat similar.
We will never know who did what when. If Hull was a 90’s baseball player everyone would look at this photo and be sure he juiced. Maybe he did even back then. Maybe he worked really hard and had genetics predisposed to building mass. To me all we can do is look at the numbers and results and judge players that way. I do not know who was clean and who was not.
Eh, thats a more " natural" look.
Doesn't mean he wasn't using other drugs for focus and what not.
In some capacity I understand the argument that adderall can improve performance but I don't believe it is transformational like steroids and HGH can be in ones performance.
There are wildly different outcomes possible with steroids from a natural person.
Comments
wasn't Lyle Alzado using steroids in the 1970's?
This stuff has been around for a very long time. Ruth used testosterone in 1925. Players have always looked for an advantage. in fact, during the 1923 season Ruth used an illegal laminated bat for 40 games until Ban Johnson put a stop to it. He slashed .448/.576/.860 over that time period. Most will do whatever they can to gain an advantage.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Ruth played in a pre integration league. He would be a great player today, but he wouldn't be out homering whole teams.
You can see in my earlier post how he did with an illegal bat until he was caught.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The steroid epidemic didn't exist in baseball until the early 90's or later. All one must do is look at the back of the cards and look at the weight of the top players. When Jose Canseco was a rookie is card said either 185 or 195. Barry Bonds was in the same range. Then the number began to balloon and Jose at his biggest was easily 260. You can't naturally achieve that. It is as simple as that.
Sorry to upset you that your boyhood hero might not be everything you built him up to be in your mind lol
You do realize that mantle had steroids injected in 1961 right? It caused a giant abscess that caused him to miss time during the home run race with maris
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Mantle I see weighed 198 at 6’0. Steroids have become much more powerful just look at Arnold vs. the modern crop of heavyweight bodybuilders.
He may have been on stuff and I am not familiar with the allegations but if you run the stats of guys like Canseco at 6’5 265 at his peak it is 3.44 pounds per inch. Mantle is 2.75. Wildly different outcomes if drugs were used by Mantle.
We will never know who did what when. If Hull was a 90’s baseball player everyone would look at this photo and be sure he juiced. Maybe he did even back then. Maybe he worked really hard and had genetics predisposed to building mass. To me all we can do is look at the numbers and results and judge players that way. I do not know who was clean and who was not.
Regardless of outcome, the intent was exactly the same. Both were cheaters, but only one is vilified as one.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
He could have easily been on something. 191 diced is tough but achievable for a small few.
BONDS
Couple things with that photo, being “Shredded” doesn’t mean you juiced, in that photo he is throwing a bail of hay. That’s like taking a photo of someone doing curls and being like “wow look at his muscles bulging, he is on the juice” Juice for younger guys is harder to tell, especially if they are in a high level training program like professional sports. The way I see it is guys that play consistently better as they age is the best sign, if Tom Brady was found out to be using Test I would not be shocked. One thing is people today are in better shape and look much better than people Pre 2000’s. I’m 48 and in pretty good shape yet I look at a pic of my father at 48 and he looks like an old man.
That was a medial use, not to put on 40 lbs of muscle. There's a huge difference. Substances used for "recovery" had been seen as legitimate for decades until the 90's when they started to get abused. Getting back on the field is different than using substances to put on bulk hoping it allows for more power, ie., make you better than you are.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
Agree with everything you said. The point I was trying to make is that is what is happening to guys like Bagwell and Piazza. We will never know who used and who did not. Speculating is just silly. Given I have no idea I look at all the numbers of 90s baseball as relative to their time. If you put up HOF numbers naturally I applaud you and you should be very proud. If you put them up with steroids too bad Baseball didn’t try to do anything to deter the use but under that environment I can see how you feel like you needed to keep up. I don’t know so I just look at the numbers in that context.
100% agreed. Personally If I was a baseball player in the 90’s and I’m watching the players around me signing huge contracts due to inflated numbers from juice then you can bet I’m doing it to. The way I see it players in the 90’s were all on the same playing field or most of them were.
IMO, Barry Bonds may be the most "unfortunate" casualty of the PED era. By all rational observation, he was a spectacular baseball player prior to using PED's(which surely began in the mid to late 90's). He has an eye for the ball and a great swing. He had all the tools offensively and defensively. He was a sure-fire HOFer with the numbers he was putting up.
But any rational person knows he used. The other part that is hard to account for was his "body armor". That allowed him to crowd the plate and take advantage of an era with subpar pitching. Its hard to discern how much of his inflated power numbers was due to the juice, or how much can be explained by his protected batting stance, juiced balls and poor pitching. Again, its unfortunate because he would have been unarguably seen as one of the top three players of his generation and would be in the HOF. But now, he's basically a topic of debate.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
Check out Vlad....165 lbs on his rookie card...played his last several years at 245...80 lbs heavier
There is one more name Alex Rodriguez. Yes he used peds. He also could be the best player of the generation. 600 plus HR, 3,000 hits.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
I took this picture back in 1992 at a spring training game in Plant City Florida. The transformation Bonds made to his body from 1999 to the time until he retired is absolutely nuts. I'm a diehard Pirates fan and Bonds was my guy as he still is.
My dad was a multi sport athlete through college. He did track & field, basketball, and baseball. When I was growing up in the late 70s and early 80s he would tell me that I get better at sports by playing and I can get stronger by working hard and eating right. His idea of working, was 100 sit-ups, 100 push ups and 50 pull ups per day. Plus my weekly yard work. Eating right was basically eat your veggies and have a glass of milk. And trust me, where yard work was concerned, I wasn't doing the Bobby Hull work out. No 40 acre, corn fed, ranch hand hand, I was just mowing lawns and raking and scooping leaves. But it still made a difference. I was like 90 pounds of muscular athletic child. I never worked with weights or focused on muscle groups. Just lots of play time and basic calisthenics.
By the mid/late 80s I was entering high school, considering playing football, and weights started to come into the picture. Well I skipped football, but the soccer team was doing a weights program which was great. But I did notice that some of the football players who entered the season at similar sizes as me we're having massive body transformations. That was the first I'd heard of steroids. A few of them were actually taking injections which scared the living crap out of me. Others were taking regularly available supplements from this new place called GNC. Where the injections sounded like bad mojo, this other stuff seemed to fit in the area of eating right. Muscle building shakes, creatine, etc. Hell, if I can buy it at a local store it should be fine, right? That's when I heard McGwire was doing creatine. And though I never went that route, I was drinking a protein shake daily and gaining a little mass. So, I can see where folks who were getting results could slide down that slippery slope. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no rule against this stuff at that point. Aside from maybe the injections, this stuff was readily available at any mall and seemed like the equivalent of a powerful scientific Flintsones vitamin. Any player with a trainer at any level high school and above was probably taking some product, especially if they were seeing others get positive results.
That said, it's hard for me to demonize the early adopters. They were seemingly within the rules and leveraging products that were readily available. Even the guys who may have taken it a step too far, still weren't breaking any written rule that I am aware of...and please correct me if I'm wrong here because it will greatly change how I feel.
My biggest issue is with those who continued to leverage these substances after the rule adoption. Mostly because that tells me you were readily and knowingly "cheating." Especially those who were attempting to use new substances that couldn't be detected.
Personally, I give a little leeway to those who finished their careers by 1995-2000 and had already shown brilliance. Despite the fact that several seemingly continued to try to beat the system, they were already "users" and I'd imagine putting the genie back in the bottle was tough. The guys busted post 2000, are full blown cheaters and have ignored the stats of long term negatives and preferred the short term gains. On some level, with the $ involved, who can blame them. Vast majority won't make the Hall anyway. But pulling a couple million and playing in the bigs may indeed be worth it. Unfortunately, not everyone was/is popped and all we can do now is speculate on certain players in the HOF discussion.
I don't think I'll ever consider any records set during that time to be truly legitimate and can't count any players from that era to be on my list of all-time greats because of the question marks. But it was a weird time of body science, pharma and sports all coming together and initially no written rule preventing it. That 10-15 year period of baseball is just part of its evolution, and should be taken in appropriate context. Let some of these guys in. No asterisk needed unless comparing them to players of different eras really. With or without roids, measuring players from different eras, regardless of sport is tough. So measure them within their era and assume just about everyone was on something. Otherwise, it seems that you're only cheating if you get caught...and some weren't even breaking an actual rule.
So by this reasoning, you are ok with HGH use as that is generally used to aid in recovery?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Steroids hit baseball in the early 80s at the latest. Does no one remember Brian Downing? Career high of 12 homers suddenly hits 28 at age 31 in 1982? Pete Incavigilia in 1986?
Well Boggs had a big HR jump I think it was on 1987? He could hit hr’s But it wasn’t his style of play, I feel that Downing was a similar type leadoff hitter? Big Pete was a rookie in ‘86. I didn’t google research any of this if I’m wrong
There might have been some users but it wasn’t an epidemic in 1986. I don't have it in front of me but I am almost positive Mark McGwire is listed at 195 on his 87 Donruss card.
With each generation appearances change but for whatever reason I thought of the image of Gorman Thomas from his 86 Fleer card. He was a "big" guy at 6'2 210.
https://www.ebay.com/p/1986-Fleer-Gorman-Thomas-477-Baseball-Card/169782292
Here is the Milwaukee Brewers roster from that year. Check out the weight of the guys. No steroid issue yet that is for sure.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=1986&t=MIL
I remember a story that said Boggs hit those home runs that one year because his teammates were making fun of him because all he did was hit singles and he wanted to prove a point.
More like 1987 was the year of the juiced ball and it just worked out that way.
Downing wasn't a similar type player. You ever seen Downing's arms? They went from normal to Hulk Hogan.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/cards/10875.jpg
http://img1.bdbphotos.com/images/orig/r/l/rlbccsqzkb91cbs1.jpg?djet1p5k
A couple of quick points that address many different things in the thread:
As a Mantle guy, the 1961 abscess related injection was a ‘drug cocktail’ given by Dr. Max Jacobson; a doctor to the stars who was known for his "miracle tissue regenerator" shots, which consisted of amphetamines, animal hormones, bone marrow, enzymes, human placenta, painkillers, steroids, and multivitamins. As the point of the injection was ‘immediate symptom relief’ and it ‘worked’ incredibly well, it was believed to be mostly amphetamines. Hence, Jacobsens nickname as the original ‘Dr. Feel Good’. But to say that because of this Mickey used steroids is like saying I’m a vampire because I once got a drop of someone else’s blood on my tongue. He could have been on a steroid regimen - who really knows - but this specific 1961 incident was a one time injection and after how it turned out, Mickey swore off the guy for good.
Steroids and PEDs have improved so dramatically but guys were taking the best stuff available - for a long time during baseball history. Hank Aaron, for instance, admitted to it in his book and said he was not the only one. Get that edge, whatever it takes - and the fame and money that comes with it. To me, I can’t feign shock when we all knew. It made for great summers, anyway - I’ll never forget the Big MAC and Sammy Sosa summers.
Barry Bonds was what happens when you take one of the top 5 players in the game and put him on a chemical regimen to maximize strength, endurance and minimizing recovery time. Anybody who plays a sport - even for fun - knows that when you finally get to the point where you fully grasp the game mentally that is usually have your body break down (another of life’s wonderful ironies) so imagine if you could play longer when you’ve figured it all out?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
You can spin it any way you want, but at the end of the day mantle took steroids/peds. Everyone has an excuse, from bonds saying he thought it was flax seed oil to Pettite saying he only did it once and then felt guilty. Whatever the excuse, they cheated be it once or 500 times.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I believe context matters, myself. Looking into it a little, this guy was a quack who passed off speed as medicine to many. Until he was exposed as a fraud.
Again, I’m not saying there’s no chance Mickey took steroids - he wasn’t really a high character guy so I wouldn’t put it past him at all. Just saying that having looked into it some, he was basically injecting people with a rudimentary version of crystal meth. Again, Dr. Feel Good not Dr. Be Strong.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Dr. Max Jacobson treated many famous individuals including Lauren Bacall, Ingrid Bergman, Leonard Bernstein, Humphrey Bogart, Yul Brynner, Maria Callas, Truman Capote, Van Cliburn, Montgomery Clift, Rosemary Clooney, Maya Deren, Cecil B. DeMille, Marlene Dietrich, Eddie Fisher, Judy Garland, Hedy Lamarr, Alan Jay Lerner, Mickey Mantle, Liza Minnelli, Thelonious Monk, Marilyn Monroe, Zero Mostel, Elvis Presley, Anthony Quinn, Paul Robeson, Nelson Rockefeller, David O. Selznick, Elizabeth Taylor, Billy Wilder and Tennessee Williams.[5][6][7] Dubbed "Dr. Feelgood", Jacobson was known for his "miracle tissue regenerator" shots, which consisted of amphetamines, animal hormones, bone marrow, enzymes, human placenta, painkillers, steroids, and multivitamins.[5][8]
John F. Kennedy first visited Jacobson in September 1960, shortly before the 1960 presidential election debates.[9] Jacobson was part of the presidential entourage at the Vienna summit in 1961, where he administered injections to combat severe back pain. Some of the potential side effects included hyperactivity, impaired judgment, nervousness, and wild mood swings. Kennedy, however, was untroubled by FDA reports on the contents of Jacobson’s injections, and proclaimed: "I don’t care if it’s horse piss. It works."[10] Jacobson was used for the most severe bouts of back pain.[11] By May 1962, Jacobson had visited the White House to treat the president 34 times,[12][13] although such treatments were stopped by President Kennedy's White House physicians, who realized the inappropriate use of steroids and amphetamines administered by Jacobson.[14] It was later observed that President Kennedy's leadership (e.g. the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, and other events during 1963) improved greatly once Jacobson's treatments were discontinued and replaced by a medically appropriate regimen. Dr. Ghaemi, who studied Kennedy's medical records, concluded there was a "correlation; it is not causation; but it may not be coincidence either".[14]
By the late 1960s, Jacobson's behavior became increasingly erratic as his own amphetamine usage increased. He began working 24-hour days and was seeing up to 30 patients per day. In 1969, one of Jacobson's clients, former presidential photographer Mark Shaw, died at the age of 47. An autopsy showed that Shaw had died of "acute and chronic intravenous amphetamine poisoning."[12] Under questioning, Jacobson's staff admitted to buying large quantities of amphetamines to give many high level doses. The Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs seized Jacobson's supply, and his medical license was revoked on April 25, 1975, by the New York State Board of Regents.[15]
Jacobson attempted to regain his license in 1979 but was denied. A state spokesmen stated that the then 79-year-old Jacobson didn't seem ready to enter into the "mainstream of practice" again.[12] Jacobson died in December that year.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
And that ladies and gentlemen is the Wikipedia page for a Dr who injected mantle with steroids.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I'll take Bonds with PEDs, Bonds without PEDS. Doesn't matter.
Correct - anyone on that list looking to bulk up?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I mean, who doesn’t think of Elizabeth Taylor, Truman Capote and Zero Mostel when the topic of steroids comes up?
My bad.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
You dont think Mantle was looking for an edge? Why else take the injection. Right, to recover. sure... Mantle was such a high morals guy as it was.
Simply put, Mantle knowingly took an injection that had Steroids in it. He was a PED user. He should be lumped in with all the others, but of course he isnt because he is from the golden age of the 50's and was hero to millions. You know, aw shucks Mickey, boys will be boys and all that. well, some players seem to be made of teflon and people dont hold them accountable like Ortiz, Pettitte and the Mick.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Mantle liked Johnny Walker Red.
Since you are not reading my posts ( and maybe never were) I’ll let it go...
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I read your posts. you are trying to down play Mantles steroid use by comparing his use to actresses, writers and non athletes who were not trying to "bulk up" but were clearly looking for another type of advantage.
Mantle was clearly looking for a competitive advantage. whether that was coming from a desire to "bulk up" or not, he was cheating, or at least trying to. So yes, he gets thrown in the same barrel as the rest of the cheaters.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Bonds records for all time home runs in a career and most home runs in a season are totally disregarded by most baseball fans. That is simply a fact.
I love when people use ‘clearly’ and ‘obviously’ incorrectly. But because I genuinely think you don’t know what you are talking about with regards to this specific (and rather famous) story, I’ll spell it out for you, mainly because it’s kinda funny:
The only thing that Mickey Mantle was clearly looking for was a cure for the clap. That’s the truth of the matter and it doesn’t exactly cast him in a nice light but it is what it is; THIS is a fact and you can look it up.
As I previously mentioned, Mickey was NOT a high character guy and if you have some other evidence he took steroids, bring it on - I’d be interested and it wouldn’t be that hard to believe - the man was a God on The Diamond as a player and teammate but a real sh*t in almost all other aspects of humanity. Such is life.
Several patients of Dr. Jacobson died of amphetamine ODs. Even comedian Billy Crystal said his mom would see this very same doctor for ‘treatment’, come home and ‘make 9 pot roasts in an hour! And he never told people what he was giving them - he was quite a snake oil salesman.
BOTTOM LINE?
Mickey wasn’t looking for more HR but rather less STD.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Oh, the grammar police have arrived. That always adds so much to a thread.
And if you think Mickey wasn't looking for a few more home runs, well maybe you believe in the tooth fairy too.
Steroids were in the injection, mantle took steroids. Everyone who gets busted for PED has an excuse.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
What a truly bizarre, non-sensical argument.
What exactly is bizarre and non -sensical? Mantle used steroids. And amphetamines for that matter.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Because over the years, the Jacobson guy claimed there was a lot of different things in his miracle shot (really crazy stuff, at times, and he was self medicating, too) but as time went on people figured out he was just giving everyone he treated massive doses of amphetamines. The other stuff was ‘for show’, if even in there at all.
As always, you are entitled to you own opinion, too.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Back to the point and the title of the thread....
Griffey -- Class and PED use not substantiated
Bonds -- No class and PED use proven
Griffey all day for me.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
So if that's the case, are those numbers good enough to validate him for the HOF?
The problem is, no one knows when be started using.
Retired Disabled Vet (Army). Corps of Engineers.
Forgive me as I am just now reading about this topic and replying to what interests me.
Amphetamines such as Adderall can be considered an "upper" yes; but it does help with focus and concentration considerably (I was on it for several years).
Those are the types of PED's that are being used for the most part. Not so much to get bigger. Pretty sure a lot of time in the gym was also included n the regiment.
So yea, I'd say the comparison is actually somewhat similar.
Retired Disabled Vet (Army). Corps of Engineers.
Eh, thats a more " natural" look.
Doesn't mean he wasn't using other drugs for focus and what not.
Retired Disabled Vet (Army). Corps of Engineers.
In some capacity I understand the argument that adderall can improve performance but I don't believe it is transformational like steroids and HGH can be in ones performance.
There are wildly different outcomes possible with steroids from a natural person.