@perkdog said:
And after watching that video it amazes me that anyone can say there was a better RB. It’s honestly ridiculous
There are clips just as good of Payton, Smith, Dorsett, Campbell and others. Reggie White is not the only man to get faked out of his j-strap.
Dimeman is absolutely right. Posted below is a Jim Brown video.
What Sanders fans need to understand is that Brown would look even more devastating if there were all the additional close-up cameras that were around when Sanders played, showing every nuance of his moves. Brown had moves to, or he would just run over you...the defensive players picked their poison - LOL
Additional note: Second time I've posted an NFL video recently and it's been blocked, at least on my computer it is? Oh well, anyone can go to Youtube and see all the Jim Brown highlight videos.
Thanks for posting! Have seen it before, but again amazed at Browns combination of strength and speed. Barry was amazing as well, Brown was better in my opinion.
For those that keep harping on how much bigger JB was than other players, he wasn't 4X bigger, yet it sometimes took that many to bring him down, AND it looks like he was almost as fast as anyone on the field to me.
The point that Perk keeps making and I subscribe to as well is that Brown played against smaller and vastly less talented defenses then the modern era. Many were part time players. The best athletes couldn’t afford to play football back then. It didn’t pay. For goddsake they used to smoke cigarettes on the sidelines. Bobby Layne was drunk during the games. I’m not saying they were less tough back then. I am saying they were less talented and less skilled. As Steve would say that can’t be debated. Case closed.
In the 90’s defeneses were geared to stop one thing. The run. No doubt Brown would still be a force in any era but would not be as dominate out of his. JMHO.
mark
Wouldn't that mean the offensive players were smaller too? You can't have it both ways, Clevelands offensive players were also smaller and less talented as well. Mr. Brown might have used modern exercise and nutrition, and be even better. Case closed?
Since there isn't a time machine yet there's no way to prove it.
The two of them in the same backfield would make defenses shake in their cleats!!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@DIMEMAN said:
perk - me and you agree on a lot of things, but Sanders being the best RB is NOT one of them. He is not number 1 in anything. Smith has the most yards and Brown has the most YPC at 5.2. Maybe just maybe the reason Sanders had 5.0 is because he quit after 10 years. If he had played as many years as Smith I think the numbers would have been different.
Wait, you say Sanders doesn't match up to Brown's 5.2 YPC but then knock Sanders for retiring after 10 years and inflating his numbers as a result? Last time I looked, Jim Brown didn't play 15 or 20 years either, so same criticism applies to him as well.
On the other hand, it's a semi-valid criticism - until you realize that Emmitt had exactly one season averaging 4.8 yards or higher (5.3 in 1993 - a year where he missed two games). So it wasn't Emmitt's longevity that dragged down his YPC average - it was his YPC numbers dragging it down. 1994, right in the middle of his prime - 4.0. 1996 - still just 27 years old - 3.7. In fact, over the last 11 years of his career, Emmitt averaged over 4.2 YPC exactly once. Once. In 11 years.
Ok that is NOT the proper way to dress up a cheesesteak. I mean cheez wiz really? If it’s the pic and that’s melted cheese then fine but it looks like cheez wiz, either way give me my cheesesteak with Mushrooms, Onions, Peppers, gotta line the bread with mayo, and American Cheese. Not toasted, thank you very much
@DIMEMAN said:
perk - me and you agree on a lot of things, but Sanders being the best RB is NOT one of them. He is not number 1 in anything. Smith has the most yards and Brown has the most YPC at 5.2. Maybe just maybe the reason Sanders had 5.0 is because he quit after 10 years. If he had played as many years as Smith I think the numbers would have been different.
Wait, you say Sanders doesn't match up to Brown's 5.2 YPC but then knock Sanders for retiring after 10 years and inflating his numbers as a result? Last time I looked, Jim Brown didn't play 15 or 20 years either, so same criticism applies to him as well.
On the other hand, it's a semi-valid criticism - until you realize that Emmitt had exactly one season averaging 4.8 yards or higher (5.3 in 1993 - a year where he missed two games). So it wasn't Emmitt's longevity that dragged down his YPC average - it was his YPC numbers dragging it down. 1994, right in the middle of his prime - 4.0. 1996 - still just 27 years old - 3.7. In fact, over the last 11 years of his career, Emmitt averaged over 4.2 YPC exactly once. Once. In 11 years.
I'm saying that if Sanders had played another 5 years he may or may not have kept his YPC at 5.0. I doubt it. Sanders and Brown played the same amount of time and Brown is better. As far as Sanders ever catching Smith in total yards....there are several things that could have stopped that.......so you can't that that away from Smith.
On the other hand, it's a semi-valid criticism - until you realize that Emmitt had exactly one season averaging 4.8 yards or higher
I realize I'm about as smart as that cheese steak wrapper, or even perhaps the cheese, but how did Emmitt Smith ever enter a "Philadelphia's Greatest Player" thread ?
Ok that is NOT the proper way to dress up a cheesesteak. I mean cheez wiz really? If it’s the pic and that’s melted cheese then fine but it looks like cheez wiz, either way give me my cheesesteak with Mushrooms, Onions, Peppers, gotta line the bread with mayo, and American Cheese. Not toasted, thank you very much
Uh-oh. You're in for a tongue lashing from stevek. Look at the wrapper that is holding that cheesesteak. One of the best houses in Philadelphia. Even Mike Schmidt used to visit there.
I can see another 100 posts in this thread now. LOL++
Well SteveK is s homer, the big question now since Mike Schmidt went there is did George Brett go there when in Philly?
I don't eat cheese any longer, haven't for many years. Cheese is a stroke or heart attack waiting to happen, one of the worst foods you can consume for a number of reasons.
I eat an extremely healthy diet. You see my goal is to outlive all you bastiges on here, and then when your descendants place your coin or card collections on Ebay, buy it all for cheap. Ah Ha Ha Ha Ha.......
On the other hand, it's a semi-valid criticism - until you realize that Emmitt had exactly one season averaging 4.8 yards or higher
I realize I'm about as smart as that cheese steak wrapper, or even perhaps the cheese, but how did Emmitt Smith ever enter a "Philadelphia's Greatest Player" thread ?
@perkdog said:
And after watching that video it amazes me that anyone can say there was a better RB. It’s honestly ridiculous
There are clips just as good of Payton, Smith, Dorsett, Campbell and others. Reggie White is not the only man to get faked out of his j-strap.
Dimeman is absolutely right. Posted below is a Jim Brown video.
What Sanders fans need to understand is that Brown would look even more devastating if there were all the additional close-up cameras that were around when Sanders played, showing every nuance of his moves. Brown had moves to, or he would just run over you...the defensive players picked their poison - LOL
Additional note: Second time I've posted an NFL video recently and it's been blocked, at least on my computer it is? Oh well, anyone can go to Youtube and see all the Jim Brown highlight videos.
Thanks for posting! Have seen it before, but again amazed at Browns combination of strength and speed. Barry was amazing as well, Brown was better in my opinion.
For those that keep harping on how much bigger JB was than other players, he wasn't 4X bigger, yet it sometimes took that many to bring him down, AND it looks like he was almost as fast as anyone on the field to me.
The point that Perk keeps making and I subscribe to as well is that Brown played against smaller and vastly less talented defenses then the modern era. Many were part time players. The best athletes couldn’t afford to play football back then. It didn’t pay. For goddsake they used to smoke cigarettes on the sidelines. Bobby Layne was drunk during the games. I’m not saying they were less tough back then. I am saying they were less talented and less skilled. As Steve would say that can’t be debated. Case closed.
In the 90’s defeneses were geared to stop one thing. The run. No doubt Brown would still be a force in any era but would not be as dominate out of his. JMHO.
mark
Wouldn't that mean the offensive players were smaller too? You can't have it both ways, Clevelands offensive players were also smaller and less talented as well. Mr. Brown might have used modern exercise and nutrition, and be even better. Case closed?
Since there isn't a time machine yet there's no way to prove it.
The two of them in the same backfield would make defenses shake in their cleats!!
Howdy Joe
Let me add this. Offensive and defensive lineman in the modern era are bigger, stronger and more massive. The Big Uglies are bigger and uglier. Skilled players in the modern era are faster and more chiseled. They work out all year. They diet. They train with specialists. They make millions. It’s their only job. If they are lucky they get endorsements. In the 50’s and 60’s for sure this wasn’t the case as a whole. It just wasn’t. Jim Brown was somewhat of an anomaly for that era in regards to size and speed. Yes he would still be great today.
Please note I did not say modern players were tougher. Football in the modern era is a full time job. It just wasn’t the case in Browns era.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@perkdog said:
And after watching that video it amazes me that anyone can say there was a better RB. It’s honestly ridiculous
There are clips just as good of Payton, Smith, Dorsett, Campbell and others. Reggie White is not the only man to get faked out of his j-strap.
Dimeman is absolutely right. Posted below is a Jim Brown video.
What Sanders fans need to understand is that Brown would look even more devastating if there were all the additional close-up cameras that were around when Sanders played, showing every nuance of his moves. Brown had moves to, or he would just run over you...the defensive players picked their poison - LOL
Additional note: Second time I've posted an NFL video recently and it's been blocked, at least on my computer it is? Oh well, anyone can go to Youtube and see all the Jim Brown highlight videos.
Thanks for posting! Have seen it before, but again amazed at Browns combination of strength and speed. Barry was amazing as well, Brown was better in my opinion.
For those that keep harping on how much bigger JB was than other players, he wasn't 4X bigger, yet it sometimes took that many to bring him down, AND it looks like he was almost as fast as anyone on the field to me.
The point that Perk keeps making and I subscribe to as well is that Brown played against smaller and vastly less talented defenses then the modern era. Many were part time players. The best athletes couldn’t afford to play football back then. It didn’t pay. For goddsake they used to smoke cigarettes on the sidelines. Bobby Layne was drunk during the games. I’m not saying they were less tough back then. I am saying they were less talented and less skilled. As Steve would say that can’t be debated. Case closed.
In the 90’s defeneses were geared to stop one thing. The run. No doubt Brown would still be a force in any era but would not be as dominate out of his. JMHO.
mark
Wouldn't that mean the offensive players were smaller too? You can't have it both ways, Clevelands offensive players were also smaller and less talented as well. Mr. Brown might have used modern exercise and nutrition, and be even better. Case closed?
Since there isn't a time machine yet there's no way to prove it.
The two of them in the same backfield would make defenses shake in their cleats!!
Howdy Joe
Let me add this. Offensive and defensive lineman in the modern era are bigger, stronger and more massive. The Big Uglies are bigger and uglier. Skilled players in the modern era are faster and more chiseled. They work out all year. They diet. They train with specialists. They make millions. It’s their only job. If they are lucky they get endorsements. In the 50’s and 60’s for sure this wasn’t the case as a whole. It just wasn’t. Jim Brown was somewhat of an anomaly for that era in regards to size and speed. Yes he would still be great today.
Please note I did not say modern players were tougher. Football in the modern era is a full time job. It just wasn’t the case in Browns era.
m
Johnny Callison, a popular star player for the Phillies in the 1960's, worked as a car salesman during the off season.
If it was the same scenario with today's MLB salaries, Callison would own the car dealership. LOL
Ok that is NOT the proper way to dress up a cheesesteak. I mean cheez wiz really? If it’s the pic and that’s melted cheese then fine but it looks like cheez wiz, either way give me my cheesesteak with Mushrooms, Onions, Peppers, gotta line the bread with mayo, and American Cheese. Not toasted, thank you very much
Uh-oh. You're in for a tongue lashing from stevek. Look at the wrapper that is holding that cheesesteak. One of the best houses in Philadelphia. Even Mike Schmidt used to visit there.
I can see another 100 posts in this thread now. LOL++
Well SteveK is s homer, the big question now since Mike Schmidt went there is did George Brett go there when in Philly?
I CANT BELIEVE NO ONE SAID RANDALL CUNNINGHAM. I WATCHED HIM THROW THE BALL 77 YARDS IN A QUARTERBACK CHALLENGE. HE ALSO HAS THE LONGEST PUNT ON RECORD. OH, AND HIS SCRAMBLES FOR PLUS YARDS WHERE THE BEST. HE BY HIMSELF SCARRED DEFENSES. I WONDER HOW HE WOULD OF DONE GIVEN A SUPPORTING ROSTER THAT MCNAB HAD . OH YEA, AND GO COWBOYS!!
@LEMONHEAD_PENNY said:
I CANT BELIEVE NO ONE SAID RANDALL CUNNINGHAM. I WATCHED HIM THROW THE BALL 77 YARDS IN A QUARTERBACK CHALLENGE. HE ALSO HAS THE LONGEST PUNT ON RECORD. OH, AND HIS SCRAMBLES FOR PLUS YARDS WHERE THE BEST. HE BY HIMSELF SCARRED DEFENSES. I WONDER HOW HE WOULD OF DONE GIVEN A SUPPORTING ROSTER THAT MCNAB HAD . OH YEA, AND GO COWBOYS!!
I mentioned him in a comment near the top. He was my favorite player outside the Patriots back then.
I enjoy arguing sports with people that actually know sports. As much as I sincerely cannot understand how anyone can not agree that Barry Sanders or Tom Brady was the best at their positions I absolutely can appreciate a good argument when people toss names like Montana, Brown ect.. in the mix but when people start talking complete nonsense it gets annoying, I like the regular posters here and enjoy the banter.
@perkdog said:
I enjoy arguing sports with people that actually know sports. As much as I sincerely cannot understand how anyone can not agree that Barry Sanders or Tom Brady was the best at their positions I absolutely can appreciate a good argument when people toss names like Montana, Brown ect.. in the mix but when people start talking complete nonsense it gets annoying, I like the regular posters here and enjoy the banter.
Brown vs Sanders is a tough one for me because I didn't see Brown play like I did with Barry so its hard to compare them evenly. I do think Walter Payton has a case too,he was one of my favorites too. Watching the Bear destroy the Pats in the SB and all I wanted was a Payton TD that never happened.
With Brady there's no debate lol.
@perkdog said:
There is no real debate on Brady but some fudds will always say Montana just like Brown, I’ve excepted that some guys just can’t be reached lol
Now, now Paul...you know that Montana versus Brady is a very lucid debate...and frankly, i like Brady a lot, he's one of my favorite players outside of the Eagles team. But let's be honest, there's no doubt that the genius of Bill Belichick and his game planning has been instrumental in Brady's success.
And yes, Montana had Bill Walsh as a coach, and he's a great coach as well.
My opinion is that Belichick has been more instrumental, perhaps much more instrumental in Brady's success than Walsh was with Montana.
This of course is just my opinion and speculation, but I do feel if under the exact same coaching and team circumstances, that Montana would out perform Brady.
It's close, but I still say Montana is the GOAT QB, and many others out there say the same thing.
@perkdog said:
Tell ya this much SteveK in his alley like return has sure livened this place up haha
I only came back Paul because your post count was getting close to mine, and I just couldn't allow you to surpass me.
It still ticks me off that I can't catch Grote's post count, and he's got a 5 star rating to my 4 stars, but i'm trying hard to improve.
You need to start taking some PED's...Post Enhancing Drugs.
+1
Don't tell Grote15 i did this - it aggravates him almost as much as anyone saying that Jerry Grote was no factor in the Mets 1969 championship.
We need more good arguments in this Sports Talk section. My comments have been adding up like crazy and 90% of them are talking sports not cards.
Not much to "argue" about with cards, other than say will the submitted raw card be a PSA 8 or a PSA 9, and that's fine, I enjoy that.
Arguing about sports to me, and I think to most sports fans and a number of coin and card collectors, is all part of the fun.
i think deep down inside, most human beings like a good argument...i mean why would people get married otherwise?
Someone from this site didn't like the 1990 Topps George Bush card talk this morning with the thread getting yanked.
I read the first few posts in that thread, but it didn't seem like anything new to me so i never opened it again. All seemed very benign. I'm not sure how that one could get out of hand unless it escalated to politics?
NE's success absolutely has more to do with Brady than it does Belichick. Belichick has coached & managed this team knowing he's always had Brady there to bail him out. Belichick is a great coach but IMHO NE's 18 years of success had more to do with Brady's arm & brain than Bill's decision making. Also the Patriot Way should be renamed the Brady Way seeing that its been Brady's sacrfices on the financial end that has allowed Bill to constantly free up money to use towards building a deeper roster. This topic has been beat to death here in NE over the past 18 years and I'll always believe that sure BB could have put together some solid playoff years without Tom but with Tom they became a Dynasty .
@erikthredd said:
NE's success absolutely has more to do with Brady than it does Belichick. Belichick has coached & managed this team knowing he's always had Brady there to bail him out. Belichick is a great coach but IMHO NE's 18 years of success had more to do with Brady's arm & brain than Bill's decision making. Also the Patriot Way should be renamed the Brady Way seeing that its been Brady's sacrfices on the financial end that has allowed Bill to constantly free up money to use towards building a deeper roster. This topic has been beat to death here in NE over the past 18 years and I'll always believe that sure BB could have put together some solid playoff years without Tom but with Tom they became a Dynasty .
Couldn't disagree with ya more on this one Eric.
In my opinion, Brady on an average team with an average coach, it's debatable whether he would make the Hall of Fame.
I think the problem is that many out there don't like Belichick personally, and that interferes with their better judgment about the situation.
Bill Belichick is a stone cold genius. To me, listening to him talk football is like listening to a musical genius play the guitar such as Eric Clapton. I love hearing Belichick talk and analyze the game of football, unlike anybody else I've seen in my lifetime.
Believe me...you Pats fans will miss Belichick big time when he's gone.
@perkdog said:
And after watching that video it amazes me that anyone can say there was a better RB. It’s honestly ridiculous
There are clips just as good of Payton, Smith, Dorsett, Campbell and others. Reggie White is not the only man to get faked out of his j-strap.
Dimeman is absolutely right. Posted below is a Jim Brown video.
What Sanders fans need to understand is that Brown would look even more devastating if there were all the additional close-up cameras that were around when Sanders played, showing every nuance of his moves. Brown had moves to, or he would just run over you...the defensive players picked their poison - LOL
Additional note: Second time I've posted an NFL video recently and it's been blocked, at least on my computer it is? Oh well, anyone can go to Youtube and see all the Jim Brown highlight videos.
Thanks for posting! Have seen it before, but again amazed at Browns combination of strength and speed. Barry was amazing as well, Brown was better in my opinion.
For those that keep harping on how much bigger JB was than other players, he wasn't 4X bigger, yet it sometimes took that many to bring him down, AND it looks like he was almost as fast as anyone on the field to me.
The point that Perk keeps making and I subscribe to as well is that Brown played against smaller and vastly less talented defenses then the modern era. Many were part time players. The best athletes couldn’t afford to play football back then. It didn’t pay. For goddsake they used to smoke cigarettes on the sidelines. Bobby Layne was drunk during the games. I’m not saying they were less tough back then. I am saying they were less talented and less skilled. As Steve would say that can’t be debated. Case closed.
In the 90’s defeneses were geared to stop one thing. The run. No doubt Brown would still be a force in any era but would not be as dominate out of his. JMHO.
mark
Wouldn't that mean the offensive players were smaller too? You can't have it both ways, Clevelands offensive players were also smaller and less talented as well. Mr. Brown might have used modern exercise and nutrition, and be even better. Case closed?
Since there isn't a time machine yet there's no way to prove it.
The two of them in the same backfield would make defenses shake in their cleats!!
Howdy Joe
Let me add this. Offensive and defensive lineman in the modern era are bigger, stronger and more massive. The Big Uglies are bigger and uglier. Skilled players in the modern era are faster and more chiseled. They work out all year. They diet. They train with specialists. They make millions. It’s their only job. If they are lucky they get endorsements. In the 50’s and 60’s for sure this wasn’t the case as a whole. It just wasn’t. Jim Brown was somewhat of an anomaly for that era in regards to size and speed. Yes he would still be great today.
Please note I did not say modern players were tougher. Football in the modern era is a full time job. It just wasn’t the case in Browns era.
m
Yes, I get all that.
My point is that if the claim is made that Brown would have a harder time battling the bigger, faster, stronger defenders of today's game, I'm going to counter that JB's offensive players, and Brown himself, would also be bigger, faster and stronger, so there's really no point in that argument. Yet it gets repeated over and over again. Of course the guys who like Sanders (or Emmitt or Walter) want to plop them in with the Cleveland Browns just as they were with their modern nutrition and weight training, they would lose some playing in an older time, because it didn't exist then. That's why you can't have it both ways.
Since all these guys played for different teams (what if so and so played with the Cowboys' O-Line he would have gained a million yards) we will never really know who was REALLY the best.
I would prefer Brown simply because he had fewer of the big losses Barry did. As a guy with a football in his hands Barry, Gale Sayers, O.J. and maybe even an old timer like Hugh McElhenny were more exciting, maybe better athletes, but if I am picking a guy to carry the rock it's JB all the way baby! I would take Payton second for the same reason, barely ahead of Sanders.
In a key 3rd & short at the end (if you lose the ball on downs) of the game who would you rather carry the rock? I would take Brown or Smith over Barry. Sure Barry "MAY" do one of his crazy plays and bust it for long yardage. Or he may get tackled for a loss and game over. Brown or Smith..........1st DOWN!!
@erikthredd said:
NE's success absolutely has more to do with Brady than it does Belichick. Belichick has coached & managed this team knowing he's always had Brady there to bail him out. Belichick is a great coach but IMHO NE's 18 years of success had more to do with Brady's arm & brain than Bill's decision making. Also the Patriot Way should be renamed the Brady Way seeing that its been Brady's sacrfices on the financial end that has allowed Bill to constantly free up money to use towards building a deeper roster. This topic has been beat to death here in NE over the past 18 years and I'll always believe that sure BB could have put together some solid playoff years without Tom but with Tom they became a Dynasty .
Couldn't disagree with ya more on this one Eric.
In my opinion, Brady on an average team with an average coach, it's debatable whether he would make the Hall of Fame.
If you actually watched Brady play every game for the past 18 years you wouldn't think that.His will & drive to win is other wordly and the only other athlete that i can honestly say was comparable was Michael Jordan.
I think the problem is that many out there don't like Belichick personally, and that interferes with their better judgment about the situation.
After yesterday you know how i feel about Belichick,I put him up there with Vince Lombardi
Bill Belichick is a stone cold genius. To me, listening to him talk football is like listening to a musical genius play the guitar such as Eric Clapton. I love hearing Belichick talk and analyze the game of football, unlike anybody else I've seen in my lifetime.
I love when Bill actually talks x's & o's on the Patriots weekly tv show as well as his weekly interview on talk radio
Believe me...you Pats fans will miss Belichick big time when he's gone.
Us Pats fans are going to miss them both very much. They're both great in their own right but together? Just look at what they've accomplished since 2001. We might never see a similar run in the NFL ever again.
@JoeBanzai I hear you. I could make a case for either Barry or Brown as #1. I have it the other way then you........somedays. Other days I agree
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Steve, You want to talk success between Brady and Montana let’s leave the Coaching out of it, Belichek or Bill Walsh they both are/were geniuses, Bill Walsh was an absolute pioneer of genius coaching. Want to talk supporting cast? Montana had it way better and everyone knows that, on both sides of the ball he had numerous great players. Brady? He gets new receivers every few years and suspect defenses to back him up and he has brought the Pats to 8 Super Bowls in 18 years, playoffs every year and how many AFC championship games? Give Brady Jerry Rice for 12 + years and his numbers would be even better.
@DIMEMAN said:
In a key 3rd & short at the end (if you lose the ball on downs) of the game who would you rather carry the rock? I would take Brown or Smith over Barry. Sure Barry "MAY" do one of his crazy plays and bust it for long yardage. Or he may get tackled for a loss and game over. Brown or Smith..........1st DOWN!!
Sanders gets you 5 yards on average every carry, better than Smith. I'd rather go with him because not only will he get that first dowbn but he may score a TD, too. Game over!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@DIMEMAN said:
In a key 3rd & short at the end (if you lose the ball on downs) of the game who would you rather carry the rock? I would take Brown or Smith over Barry. Sure Barry "MAY" do one of his crazy plays and bust it for long yardage. Or he may get tackled for a loss and game over. Brown or Smith..........1st DOWN!!
So on short yardage Brown would be better? OK, Earl Campbell would better too right? Heck Christian Okoye would be better at 3rd and short, Natrone Means too probably. It’s just not an accurate way to push this argument in Browns direction.
@DIMEMAN said:
In a key 3rd & short at the end (if you lose the ball on downs) of the game who would you rather carry the rock? I would take Brown or Smith over Barry. Sure Barry "MAY" do one of his crazy plays and bust it for long yardage. Or he may get tackled for a loss and game over. Brown or Smith..........1st DOWN!!
Sanders gets you 5 yards on average every carry, better than Smith. I'd rather go with him because not only will he get that first dowbn but he may score a TD, too. Game over!
Bad logic. It's short yardage.....you can't count on 5 yards just because that is his average. He also got tackled for losses a lot. Brown or Smith would be a much better choice.
@DIMEMAN said:
In a key 3rd & short at the end (if you lose the ball on downs) of the game who would you rather carry the rock? I would take Brown or Smith over Barry. Sure Barry "MAY" do one of his crazy plays and bust it for long yardage. Or he may get tackled for a loss and game over. Brown or Smith..........1st DOWN!!
Sanders gets you 5 yards on average every carry, better than Smith. I'd rather go with him because not only will he get that first dowbn but he may score a TD, too. Game over!
Bad logic. It's short yardage.....you can't count on 5 yards just because that is his average. He also got tackled for losses a lot. Brown or Smith would be a much better choice.
Wrong. All backs get tackled for losses. Sanders has the highest YPC of any back in history other than Brown. Once again, your memory of Sanders, like your memory of many other aspects in football, is flawed. Sanders was actually quite effective in short yardage situations. Look it up.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
In case you were wondering here are the advanced situational stats:
In game situations when there was an average of 1-3 yards needed for a first down, Sanders averaged 4.0 yards per carry.
In game situations when there was an average of 1-3 yards needed for a first down, Smith averaged 3.0 yards per carry.
That's one full yard better, on average, between the two backs in short yardage sitauations. Like I said, Sanders is clearly the better back, not only overall, but in short yardage situations vs Smith, too.
Additionally, Smith had a higher fumble rate than Sanders, who rarely fumbled, so I'd rather go to a guy who's less likely to turn the ball over, as well.
As SteveK would say, case closed.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Speaking of fumbles,I checked Brown's compared to Sanders earlier
Brown had 57 fumbles in 2358 rushing attempts
Sanders had 41 fumbles in 3062 rushing attempts
Comments
I hate Miller Light beer as well, I’m a Bud/Bud Light guy, I enjoy a Guinness occasionally but that’s as crazy as I get for beer
Wouldn't that mean the offensive players were smaller too? You can't have it both ways, Clevelands offensive players were also smaller and less talented as well. Mr. Brown might have used modern exercise and nutrition, and be even better. Case closed?
Since there isn't a time machine yet there's no way to prove it.
The two of them in the same backfield would make defenses shake in their cleats!!
Wait, you say Sanders doesn't match up to Brown's 5.2 YPC but then knock Sanders for retiring after 10 years and inflating his numbers as a result? Last time I looked, Jim Brown didn't play 15 or 20 years either, so same criticism applies to him as well.
On the other hand, it's a semi-valid criticism - until you realize that Emmitt had exactly one season averaging 4.8 yards or higher (5.3 in 1993 - a year where he missed two games). So it wasn't Emmitt's longevity that dragged down his YPC average - it was his YPC numbers dragging it down. 1994, right in the middle of his prime - 4.0. 1996 - still just 27 years old - 3.7. In fact, over the last 11 years of his career, Emmitt averaged over 4.2 YPC exactly once. Once. In 11 years.
Ok that is NOT the proper way to dress up a cheesesteak. I mean cheez wiz really? If it’s the pic and that’s melted cheese then fine but it looks like cheez wiz, either way give me my cheesesteak with Mushrooms, Onions, Peppers, gotta line the bread with mayo, and American Cheese. Not toasted, thank you very much
I'm saying that if Sanders had played another 5 years he may or may not have kept his YPC at 5.0. I doubt it. Sanders and Brown played the same amount of time and Brown is better. As far as Sanders ever catching Smith in total yards....there are several things that could have stopped that.......so you can't that that away from Smith.
That joke was so Cheesy
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Well SteveK is s homer, the big question now since Mike Schmidt went there is did George Brett go there when in Philly?
I don't eat cheese any longer, haven't for many years. Cheese is a stroke or heart attack waiting to happen, one of the worst foods you can consume for a number of reasons.
I eat an extremely healthy diet. You see my goal is to outlive all you bastiges on here, and then when your descendants place your coin or card collections on Ebay, buy it all for cheap. Ah Ha Ha Ha Ha.......
Stop!
Howdy Joe
Let me add this. Offensive and defensive lineman in the modern era are bigger, stronger and more massive. The Big Uglies are bigger and uglier. Skilled players in the modern era are faster and more chiseled. They work out all year. They diet. They train with specialists. They make millions. It’s their only job. If they are lucky they get endorsements. In the 50’s and 60’s for sure this wasn’t the case as a whole. It just wasn’t. Jim Brown was somewhat of an anomaly for that era in regards to size and speed. Yes he would still be great today.
Please note I did not say modern players were tougher. Football in the modern era is a full time job. It just wasn’t the case in Browns era.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Johnny Callison, a popular star player for the Phillies in the 1960's, worked as a car salesman during the off season.
If it was the same scenario with today's MLB salaries, Callison would own the car dealership. LOL
Tell ya this much SteveK in his alley like return has sure livened this place up haha
I only came back Paul because your post count was getting close to mine, and I just couldn't allow you to surpass me.
It still ticks me off that I can't catch Grote's post count, and he's got a 5 star rating to my 4 stars, but i'm trying hard to improve.
You need to start taking some PED's...Post Enhancing Drugs.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I CANT BELIEVE NO ONE SAID RANDALL CUNNINGHAM. I WATCHED HIM THROW THE BALL 77 YARDS IN A QUARTERBACK CHALLENGE. HE ALSO HAS THE LONGEST PUNT ON RECORD. OH, AND HIS SCRAMBLES FOR PLUS YARDS WHERE THE BEST. HE BY HIMSELF SCARRED DEFENSES. I WONDER HOW HE WOULD OF DONE GIVEN A SUPPORTING ROSTER THAT MCNAB HAD . OH YEA, AND GO COWBOYS!!
+1
Don't tell Grote15 i did this - it aggravates him almost as much as anyone saying that Jerry Grote was no factor in the Mets 1969 championship.
We need more good arguments in this Sports Talk section. My comments have been adding up like crazy and 90% of them are talking sports not cards.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I mentioned him in a comment near the top. He was my favorite player outside the Patriots back then.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Not much to "argue" about with cards, other than say will the submitted raw card be a PSA 8 or a PSA 9, and that's fine, I enjoy that.
Arguing about sports to me, and I think to most sports fans and a number of coin and card collectors, is all part of the fun.
i think deep down inside, most human beings like a good argument...i mean why would people get married otherwise?
Someone from this site didn't like the 1990 Topps George Bush card talk this morning with the thread getting yanked.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I enjoy arguing sports with people that actually know sports. As much as I sincerely cannot understand how anyone can not agree that Barry Sanders or Tom Brady was the best at their positions I absolutely can appreciate a good argument when people toss names like Montana, Brown ect.. in the mix but when people start talking complete nonsense it gets annoying, I like the regular posters here and enjoy the banter.
Brown vs Sanders is a tough one for me because I didn't see Brown play like I did with Barry so its hard to compare them evenly. I do think Walter Payton has a case too,he was one of my favorites too. Watching the Bear destroy the Pats in the SB and all I wanted was a Payton TD that never happened.
With Brady there's no debate lol.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
There is no real debate on Brady but some fudds will always say Montana just like Brown, I’ve excepted that some guys just can’t be reached lol
There are plenty of MJ or Lebron arguments that more than make up for Brady reaching divine status
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Now, now Paul...you know that Montana versus Brady is a very lucid debate...and frankly, i like Brady a lot, he's one of my favorite players outside of the Eagles team. But let's be honest, there's no doubt that the genius of Bill Belichick and his game planning has been instrumental in Brady's success.
And yes, Montana had Bill Walsh as a coach, and he's a great coach as well.
My opinion is that Belichick has been more instrumental, perhaps much more instrumental in Brady's success than Walsh was with Montana.
This of course is just my opinion and speculation, but I do feel if under the exact same coaching and team circumstances, that Montana would out perform Brady.
It's close, but I still say Montana is the GOAT QB, and many others out there say the same thing.
I read the first few posts in that thread, but it didn't seem like anything new to me so i never opened it again. All seemed very benign. I'm not sure how that one could get out of hand unless it escalated to politics?
NE's success absolutely has more to do with Brady than it does Belichick. Belichick has coached & managed this team knowing he's always had Brady there to bail him out. Belichick is a great coach but IMHO NE's 18 years of success had more to do with Brady's arm & brain than Bill's decision making. Also the Patriot Way should be renamed the Brady Way seeing that its been Brady's sacrfices on the financial end that has allowed Bill to constantly free up money to use towards building a deeper roster. This topic has been beat to death here in NE over the past 18 years and I'll always believe that sure BB could have put together some solid playoff years without Tom but with Tom they became a Dynasty .
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I would put Tom over Joe.....ever so slightly. You can't go wrong with either one if you are building a team.
Couldn't disagree with ya more on this one Eric.
In my opinion, Brady on an average team with an average coach, it's debatable whether he would make the Hall of Fame.
I think the problem is that many out there don't like Belichick personally, and that interferes with their better judgment about the situation.
Bill Belichick is a stone cold genius. To me, listening to him talk football is like listening to a musical genius play the guitar such as Eric Clapton. I love hearing Belichick talk and analyze the game of football, unlike anybody else I've seen in my lifetime.
Believe me...you Pats fans will miss Belichick big time when he's gone.
Yes, I get all that.
My point is that if the claim is made that Brown would have a harder time battling the bigger, faster, stronger defenders of today's game, I'm going to counter that JB's offensive players, and Brown himself, would also be bigger, faster and stronger, so there's really no point in that argument. Yet it gets repeated over and over again. Of course the guys who like Sanders (or Emmitt or Walter) want to plop them in with the Cleveland Browns just as they were with their modern nutrition and weight training, they would lose some playing in an older time, because it didn't exist then. That's why you can't have it both ways.
Since all these guys played for different teams (what if so and so played with the Cowboys' O-Line he would have gained a million yards) we will never really know who was REALLY the best.
I would prefer Brown simply because he had fewer of the big losses Barry did. As a guy with a football in his hands Barry, Gale Sayers, O.J. and maybe even an old timer like Hugh McElhenny were more exciting, maybe better athletes, but if I am picking a guy to carry the rock it's JB all the way baby! I would take Payton second for the same reason, barely ahead of Sanders.
btw I saw some film of Hugh McElhenny a few years ago, see for yourself how good he was. After all his nickname was the "King"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zP_SBa8MpY
In a key 3rd & short at the end (if you lose the ball on downs) of the game who would you rather carry the rock? I would take Brown or Smith over Barry. Sure Barry "MAY" do one of his crazy plays and bust it for long yardage. Or he may get tackled for a loss and game over. Brown or Smith..........1st DOWN!!
If you actually watched Brady play every game for the past 18 years you wouldn't think that.His will & drive to win is other wordly and the only other athlete that i can honestly say was comparable was Michael Jordan.
After yesterday you know how i feel about Belichick,I put him up there with Vince Lombardi
I love when Bill actually talks x's & o's on the Patriots weekly tv show as well as his weekly interview on talk radio
Us Pats fans are going to miss them both very much. They're both great in their own right but together? Just look at what they've accomplished since 2001. We might never see a similar run in the NFL ever again.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
@JoeBanzai I hear you. I could make a case for either Barry or Brown as #1. I have it the other way then you........somedays. Other days I agree
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Steve, You want to talk success between Brady and Montana let’s leave the Coaching out of it, Belichek or Bill Walsh they both are/were geniuses, Bill Walsh was an absolute pioneer of genius coaching. Want to talk supporting cast? Montana had it way better and everyone knows that, on both sides of the ball he had numerous great players. Brady? He gets new receivers every few years and suspect defenses to back him up and he has brought the Pats to 8 Super Bowls in 18 years, playoffs every year and how many AFC championship games? Give Brady Jerry Rice for 12 + years and his numbers would be even better.
Sanders gets you 5 yards on average every carry, better than Smith. I'd rather go with him because not only will he get that first dowbn but he may score a TD, too. Game over!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
So on short yardage Brown would be better? OK, Earl Campbell would better too right? Heck Christian Okoye would be better at 3rd and short, Natrone Means too probably. It’s just not an accurate way to push this argument in Browns direction.
Bad logic. It's short yardage.....you can't count on 5 yards just because that is his average. He also got tackled for losses a lot. Brown or Smith would be a much better choice.
Wrong. All backs get tackled for losses. Sanders has the highest YPC of any back in history other than Brown. Once again, your memory of Sanders, like your memory of many other aspects in football, is flawed. Sanders was actually quite effective in short yardage situations. Look it up.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
In case you were wondering here are the advanced situational stats:
In game situations when there was an average of 1-3 yards needed for a first down, Sanders averaged 4.0 yards per carry.
In game situations when there was an average of 1-3 yards needed for a first down, Smith averaged 3.0 yards per carry.
That's one full yard better, on average, between the two backs in short yardage sitauations. Like I said, Sanders is clearly the better back, not only overall, but in short yardage situations vs Smith, too.
Additionally, Smith had a higher fumble rate than Sanders, who rarely fumbled, so I'd rather go to a guy who's less likely to turn the ball over, as well.
As SteveK would say, case closed.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Speaking of fumbles,I checked Brown's compared to Sanders earlier
Brown had 57 fumbles in 2358 rushing attempts
Sanders had 41 fumbles in 3062 rushing attempts
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486