Fairly deceptive CC Morgan counterfeits arrived today
morgansforever
Posts: 8,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
My group of fake CC's came in the mail today, just finished shooting, cropping, cutting and pasting. All weigh 26.7 grams one was 26.8 but they have a weird ting to them when dropped on a table. Can't tell one way or the other if there silver. All of them share that manufactured wear/grime, wonder how they accomplish this? All will eventually be listed on Ebay with a ridiculous BIN. I'm going to use their platform to inform and educate buyers, oughta be fun. Wonder if they'll pull the listings? the 92cc has a very obvious bad date, while the 82cc has a better looking 2. Another thing to note all have pretty decent mintmarks.
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frigging chinese and their fake crap!!! argh
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
The only way to stop it is to inform, educate and empower others. If there's no demand for them the counterfeiters will vanish. The main question is how do I single handedly accomplish this?
Silver? Seriously? Maybe German Silver.
They sorta kinda sound like silver, somewhere in between a clad Ike and a legit Morgan.
one of the better looking "CC" mintmarks I have seen on a counterfeit. The rest of the details on the coins are pretty bad though.
+1
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One more detail, none of them are magnetic.
This is my first post as a new member to this forum, so pardon any mistakes. I have been a novice collector for about a decade, but have not been very active over the past few years. I am becoming more active as of late, so I am trying to become more educated now than when I entered the hobby as there are many more resources available now than there were a decade ago. Reading information from this forum has been an incredible resource.
I find the problem of counterfeit coins to be vexing as from what I have read, it is becoming more prevalent as of late. Thanks for the opportunity to ask a few questions to educate myself. As I collect Morgan Dollars, my questions are mainly related to them.
1) Are most counterfeited Morgans produced to simulated "well circulated" coins, or are "uncirculated" Morgan's faked also? Would a "mint state" counterfeit be too easy to detect?
2) Are the majority of counterfeited Morgans cast, if so, what would be a few of the most obvious signs that a coin has been cast as opposed to being minted using dies and a press?
3) In your desire to educate collectors about counterfeiting, what do you believe would be the three most important pieces of information that you would like to convey?
4) Knowing that your posted photos are of fakes, I can examine them and see the defect across the "T" in UNITED that repeats on the reverse of all of the coins except the last one, but being inexperienced in evaluating well worn coins it would be difficult for me to point out the most obvious indicators that these coins are fakes. Could the commentors please point out what key issues they see as experienced collectors that indicate to them that the coins are counterfeit. That would be extremely helpful to those of us to whom it is not immediately obvious that these coins are fakes.
Thank You in advance for your responses.
Paul
Cool !!!
Looks like they all share the reverse that was posted about earlier.
@pbj
I will start to answer your questions.
1) The Chinese have made some "Uncirculated" pieces, but in recent years they have concentrated on "circulated" fakes. They have made many copies of common date to slightly better date coins in "circulated" condition. Some collectors might think that they are "safe" when they buy common pieces like this, but they are wrong. These fakes contain no silver which makes it possible for the crooks to make money on them.
Another tactic is to scrape off the problem areas on their fakes to prevent detection. They have been able to do this with some early American copper coins that have gotten past the third party graders.
2) The Chinese fakes are die struck from copy dies, not cast.
3) Three fundamentals, among many others:
a) Always check to see if the date and mint mark combination really exists. The Chinese have made stuff like a 1903-CC dollar, which does not exist. The Carson City Mint closed in 1893.
b) Learn what the real coin looks like. When the numbers, lettering or devices look "funny," alarm bells should go off in your mind.
c) It takes practice and experience, but certain surfaces anomalies appear on many counterfeits. The mark you saw on the "T" in "united" is a die break. That can appear on a real coin, but there are other lumps and web like features that can be indicators of fakes.
4) The question is so broad, I don't know how to answer it. The best advice is to buy from honest, knowledgeable dealers and buy certified coins when appropriate. Stay away from places like flea markets where a lot of this stuff is marketed, unless you have the expertise to spot the bad stuff. The skills required in counterfeit detection take much time to learn, and no one knows everything.
pbj, first off welcome to the boards. I'll do my best to answer your questions. Most if not all CF's I've come across have a manufactured circulated look, have not seen a MS CF. Some CF's are cast some are struck with dies, to give you a ratio would be a a total guess. The 1st 5 all share the same die crack going through the T of UNITED on the reverse. Obviously the reverses were all from the same die. 3 pieces of info to convey, hmmm....... 1. Know your series by reading and checking out a site like http://www.theblackcabinet.org/. 2. Not only know the coin but become familiar with the holders as well. Counterfeiters love the PCGS slab, don't know why they go this route. 3. If buying raw buy only from sellers that are trusted, or stay with dealers. Most dealers if not all are NOT going to sell fakes knowingly. 4. Get out there and examine your series in hand, what better way to get a feel than to hold it in your hand.
It's not legal to be in possession of these things, let alone offer them for sale. I would never post them on ebay.
Thought about that, maybe I'll stick to starting a thread on their forums.
All counterfeits are illegal.
By purchasing these abominations, and other fakes - foreign and domestic - collectors are merely encouraging illegal and deprecating activity.
The makers are after money. The activity can be limited or stopped by not buying counterfeits.
So if a person passes a counterfeit bill at the movie theater, the cashier will be arrested and sent to prison? Your statement is in "possession". The mail carrier that delivered those "coins", will they be charged and sent to prison?
Please cite the exact law you are referencing. Please note the "Intent to defraud" portion.
18 U.S. Code § 485 - Coins or bars
Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.
Cool stuff. It might be some sort of paint or stain. A friend here gave me one to check out. It was pretty bad so I played to see how hard it is to color them a little better.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Good to know and see what a fake looks like. Keep it in a holder marked fake for education. Mine was given to me to learn from by a grader/ teacher. Agree should never try to sale
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Thank you MustangBob. I was about to share the same thing. There are A LOT of misconceptions when it comes to counterfeit coins - modern or contemporary.
Just another reason I only buy slabbed stuff (from PCGS or NGC). I think I'm okay at grading (especially Morgans) but I'm not sure I can spot all the counterfeits. I've seen a known fake 93S that looks, sounds and weighs correctly and would have fooled me but the diagnostic positioning/markings characteristics gave it away.
@pbj.... Welcome aboard. You pose good questions... and answers followed. These fakes appear to be flooding the market....so people must be buying them. Like any product, if there is demand, someone will fill it - profit is the motive. The items in the OP are obvious fakes, however, to a new collector, they will appear real. Get the books on counterfeit coin detection.. there are several available. Study them, go to coin shows and shops. Cheers, RickO
Roger, why would you give me a 'disagree' then post a statement in agreement ?
Is it my mouthwash ?
I wouldn't list them for a few reasons.
I do believe the auction(s) will be shut down.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
These are everywhere. I cut 5 in half to expose the brass and put them on a rail going into a show and checked back 10 minutes later and they were gone. Since cut in half, are they now a fifty cent piece? lol
Of course they and you will get reported. By me for one. They are illegal to sell and a violation of ebay rules. You wasted your money unless you need small targets for you 30.06.
bob
Oh, and by the way they all have the same reverse die as indicated by the gash on the eagle's breast. I posted an example of this earlier as a pick up point. You bought them of Aliexpress. Shame, shame.
bob
Holy cow! ! I can see the die crack in the T of UNITED on all but the 1893CC... that one looks very convincing to my eye... thanks for posting!!
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Got em from a forum member, probably paid to much looking at prices from Ali.
You can even get em slabbed by PCGS, assuming under the pixilated area it reads PCGS.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1889-cc-US-Morgan-90-Pure-Silver-One-Dollar-In-Grade-Case-MS64/32629069005.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.37.4cac41831tOdOJ&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10152_10151_10065_10344_10130_10068_10324_10547_10342_10325_10546_10343_10340_10548_10341_10545_10696_10084_10083_10618_10307_10846_10059_100031_10103_10624_10623_10622_10621_10620-normal#cfs,searchweb201603_12,ppcSwitch_7_ppcChannel&algo_expid=85368334-f22d-415c-b66d-af6f7f9af67f-5&algo_pvid=85368334-f22d-415c-b66d-af6f7f9af67f&priceBeautifyAB=0
Thank you all for your replies to my questions and your comments. I appreciate that you take the time and effort to help pass on some of your experience to novice collectors like me. It helps simply knowing that counterfeit coins exist in much greater numbers than I ever would have expected and that fake coins exist in counterfeited TPGS holders. I previously believed that faked coins were much easier to detect because of their poor quality and I was unaware of "decent quality" fakes in passable TPGS holders. It reaffirms what I have gleaned from reading posts in this forum over the past few months, a very key point being that education is critical in becoming a competent coin collector and hobbyist. I am embarrassed to think how little I knew when I first started purchasing Morgan Dollars over a decade ago. Information was much more limited... I actually read "Coin Collecting for Dummies". I have now purchased several more relevant books which I am now reading and have watched all of the PCGS educational YouTube videos as well as multiple videos on all aspects of collecting...and have discovered this forum. To be honest, I have found educational materials related specifically to current day counterfeiting issues (mainly related to Morgan Dollars) quite lacking. This is disturbing as Morgans are one of the most popularly collected coins, and frequently collected by new hobbyists. Most of the information that I have found on counterfeits relates to specific known indicators that have been found in coins that have been determined to have been counterfeited in quantity, none of which were Morgans (except on the posted website http://www.theblackcabinet.org/). Even on that website, it seems like at least for Morgan's, the last found fakes were posted in 2015. There are 15 pages in "The Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace Dollars" Fourth Edition, but it was last updated in 1991. From the limited more current information that I have found, it is evident that counterfeiters today are much better at the "craft" and their work is much more difficult to detect... especially when encapsulated in a fake TPGS holder!
I would hope to convey to the many expert and highly experienced collectors on this site how valuable their knowledge on modern counterfeiting is and that if the desire is to squash the proliferation of fakes by eliminating the market, educating those who are the most likely to be duped purchasers of counterfeits is key. As an expert, you may look at a counterfeit coin and grumble and laugh incredulously, I might unknowingly purchase it perpetuating the demand.
Short of writing a book, I would like to suggest that creating a series of YouTube videos on current day counterfeiting issues would be invaluable as a resource to those like me who are in search of relevant information related to today's counterfeiting issues. Please accept this as a very serious request. There is such an aggregate of incredible knowledge that exists in the collective membership of this forum, and creating an educational resource, easily and widely available worldwide, where multiple experienced contributors share their knowledge regarding counterfeiting in a series of videos... I believe would be a great start in stemming the production and proliferation of counterfeits!!
(Anybody have experience with creating a YouTube channel and producing and posting videos willing to step up and spearhead this genuine attack on those faceless fakers??)
As this is only my second post, I don't know if the previous contributors to this thread will see this post as they have already read the OP and have commented. As I am very serious about my suggestion and believe that some of the previous commenters would be key contributors to the described educational resource, would starting a new thread be the preferable way to submit this idea and throw it out for interested parties or comment? @morgansforever... Perhaps a follow up post? Since your Ebay plan sounds like a bust, is this idea something that you could run with?
Good poker chips.
They have all the time in the world to experiment with distressing and concealing evidence of fraud. No one assumes that they are a potential victim yet fraudsters see us all as suckers. This forum should be a wake-up call for all. "To counterfeit is death ". Peace Roy
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